>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY  VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW  MEXICO IN FOCUS, COMMUNITY IN CRISIS.

WE CATCH UP WITH A STATE REPRESENTATIVE TO ASK HOW  THE FARMINGTON AREA IS RESPONDING TO MONDAY’S  DEADLY MASS SHOOTING.

>> Duncan: THESE WERE THREE  WOMEN OF GREAT FAITH AND SERVICE TO OUR COMMUNITY.

I’D CALL THEM PILLARS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

THEY WERE JUST SALT OF THE EARTH PEOPLE.

>> Gene: AND IN A SPECIAL PANEL DISCUSSION, WE DISCUSS  THE END OF TITLE 42 AND WHAT IT COULD MEAN FOR  IMMIGRATION ACROSS OUR STATE.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

>> Gene: THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I’M YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

THE CITY OF FARMINGTON IS  MOURNING THE DEATHS OF THREE WOMEN, ALL OVER THE AGE OF 70, AFTER A MASS SHOOTING THAT ALSO INJURED SIX PEOPLE, INCLUDING TWO POLICE OFFICERS.

IN LESS THAN A MINUTE, I SPEAK WITH STATE  REPRESENTATIVE MARK DUNCAN ABOUT THE SHOOTING, HOW  PEOPLE IN FARMINGTON ARE FEELING, AND THE GOVERNOR’S  CALLS FOR GUN CONTROL LEGISLATION.

THEN IN ABOUT TEN MINUTES, WE TURN OUR ATTENTION TO THE  BORDER WITH MEXICO.

ONE WEEK AFTER THE END OF  TITLE 42, I’LL ASK OUR SPECIAL PANEL WHY WE HAVEN’T  SEEN THE HUGE INCREASE IN MIGRATION MANY PREDICTED.

AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HOUR, WE SHIFT FOCUS TO A CRIMINAL  JUSTICE REFORM EFFORT THAT DIED ON THE GOVERNOR’S DESK  THIS SPRING.

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF  PROCTOR SITS DOWN WITH A DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND THE  STATE'S CHIEF PUBLIC DEFENDER TO TALK ABOUT THE MEASURE THAT WOULD HAVE MADE IT TOUGHER TO LOCK UP  PROBATIONERS AND PAROLEES FOR SO-CALLED TECHNICAL  VIOLATIONS.

ALSO IN THE SECOND HALF OF  THE SHOW, OUR LAND’S LAURA PASKUS CONTINUES HER SERIES  ON ONE OF THE STATE’S MOST PRIZED NATURE PRESERVES,  VALLES CALDERA.

SHE ASKS THE SUPERINTENDENT  ABOUT A NEW MANAGEMENT PLAN FROM THE PARK SERVICE AND  WHAT IT COULD MEAN FOR PUBLIC ACCESS.

BUT WE START THIS WEEK WITH STATE REPRESENTATIVE MARK  DUNCAN’S REACTION TO THE SHOOTING IN FARMINGTON.

>> Gene: REPRESENTATIVE MARK DUNCAN, THANK YOU FOR  MAKING TIME FOR US IN A DIFFICULT TIME PERIOD.

FIRST QUESTION RIGHT AWAY, HOW IS THE CITY OF  FARMINGTON DOING A COUPLE OF DAYS AFTER THIS HORRIFIC TRAGEDY?

>> Duncan: I THINK THE MOOD HERE IS A LITTLE BIT SOMBER.

THESE WERE THREE WOMEN OF  GREAT FAITH AND SERVICE TO OUR COMMUNITY.

I WOULD CALL THEM PILLARS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

THEY WERE JUST SALT OF THE EARTH PEOPLE.

AND IT'S ALWAYS A SAD CASE WHEN HORRIFIC ATTACKS LIKE THIS HAPPEN, BUT WHEN YOU ARE RELATED TO THEM, IT'S  EVEN A LITTLE BIT HARDER.

>> Gene: DID YOU PERSONALLY  KNOW ANY OF THE VICTIMS OR THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS  RESPONDING TO THE SHOOTING?

>> Dan: AUNT MELODY IS OUR AUNT ON MY WIFE'S SIDE, AND GRANDMA GWEN IS HER MOTHER.

SO I KNEW AUNT MELODY QUITE WELL.

>> Gene: WHAT HAVE BEEN THE  BIGGEST CHALLENGES SO FAR COMMUNITY WIDE, AND MAYBE  FOR YOURSELF PERSONALLY?

WHAT'S BEEN THE BIGGEST  CHALLENGE?

>> Duncan: I THING PROBABLY  THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE FOR ALL OF US IS FOR THOSE WHO  MAY WONDER A QUESTION OR STRUGGLE WITH MENTAL CHALLENGES, YOU KNOW, ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS NEXT, AND IN  REALITY THE POLICE DID A GREAT JOB.

THE FIRST RESPONDERS DID A GREAT JOB AND DID EVERYTHING  THEY COULD TO HELP OUT THE SITUATION AND TAKE CARE OF  IT.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT GREAT RESOURCES OUT RIGHT NOW FOR THE COMMUNITY AND THEY ARE BEING HANDLED.

I KNOW THE CIVIC CENTER IN FARMINGTON IS SET UP TO HELP  OUT WITH THOSE WHO ARE NEEDING COUNSELING AND  NEEDING OTHER THINGS.

SO I THINK TIME WILL BE A  HEALER, BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN RESOURCES AND  AVENUES OUT THERE FOR PEOPLE TO GET THE HELP THAT THEY'D LIKE.

>> Gene: THE POLICE HAVE ALSO IDENTIFIED 18 YEAR OLD BEAU WILSON AS THE SHOOTER,  AND A FRIEND OF HIS TOLD THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL THAT  MR. WILSON WAS DIFFERENT, HEARD VOICES SPEAKING TO  HIM, HAD A HARD TIME MEETING NEW PEOPLE, ETC., ETC.

WE'VE HEARD A LOT OF THIS BEFORE.

BUT WHAT SORT OF MENTAL HEALTH RESOURCES ARE  AVAILABLE IN FARMINGTON AND SAN JUAN COUNTY AT THIS POINT?

>> Duncan: WELL, I THINK THAT'S THE STRUGGLE WE FACE WITHIN THIS WHOLE STATE OF  NEW MEXICO.

AS A LEGISLATOR, WE WORK TO  TRY TO KEEP OUR DOCTORS WITHIN THE STATE, WE WORK TO  TRY TO RECRUIT DOCTORS FOR THE STATE, AND I DON'T THINK  FARMINGTON IS ANY DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER RURAL PART OF  THE STATE.

>> Gene: LET'S BROADEN THIS  UP A LITTLE BIT.

MASS SHOOTINGS HAVE BECOME A  NATIONAL SITUATION IN THE U.S., AS YOU KNOW.

NEW MEXICO HAS NOT BEEN IMMUNE.

NEITHER HAS THE COUNTY THAT YOU REPRESENT, AS YOU KNOW.

I'M NOT TELLING YOU SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW.

A FORMER SHOOTER SHOT AND KILLED TWO KIDS AND THEN  HIMSELF AT AZTEC HIGH IN 2017.

WHAT IS DRIVING THESE SHOOTINGS?

DO YOU BELIEVE THERE ARE TRENDS OR COMMON  DENOMINATORS HERE?

>> Duncan: I DON'T KNOW  THAT THERE'S ANY COMMON DENOMINATOR OR ANY TREND AT ALL.

I THINK WE DON'T -- YOU KNOW, AS A STATE, WE HAVEN'T PUT ENOUGH MONEY INTO MENTAL  HEALTH, I DON'T BELIEVE, AND SO THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS  THAT I WILL BE DOING, IS CHAMPIONING THAT AND JUST  MAKING SURE THAT THE MONEY THAT IS NEEDED AND THE  CAREGIVERS THAT WE CAN GET INTO ALL PARTS OF THIS  STATE, THAT WE CAN GET THERE.

SO I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE'S ANY ONE THING.

>> Gene: IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THIS SITUATION THAT  SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT, I'LL USE THE TERM SEMI-AUTOMATIC  WEAPONS, AR-15s, THINGS OF THAT NATURE?

DOES THIS GIVE CREDENCE TO CALLS TO BAN THESE WEAPONS?

DOES IT NOT MATTER?

I'M CURIOUS WHERE YOU ARE ON  THAT SUBJECT?

>> Duncan: YOU KNOW, I'LL  CAREFULLY CONSIDER ANY UPCOMING LEGISLATION THAT'S  FILED FOR OUR SESSION IN 2024, BUT I'M LOOKING MORE  AND MORE AT OUR HEALTH CHALLENGES THAT WE FACE.

PEOPLE THAT COMMIT THESE HORRIFIC ACTS OF VIOLENCE, THEY DON'T DO IT IN THEIR RIGHT MIND.

THERE ARE SOME SERIOUS PROBLEMS, AND THOSE PROBLEMS  AREN'T BEING ADDRESSED.

>> Gene: YOU KNOW, AS WE  KNOW, THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE SHOOTINGS  ARE COMMITTED BY MEN, INCREASINGLY YOUNGER MEN.

THERE USED TO BE A TIME WHEN THE AVERAGE SHOOTER WAS A  39-YEAR-OLD MAN, AND SINCE 2020, THE MEDIAN AGE IS NOW 22.

WHAT'S GOING ON IN OUR COUNTRY WITH THESE YOUNGER MEN, IN YOUR OPINION?

>> Duncan: I WOULD LOVE TO TELL YOU THAT.

I'M NOT A GAMER.

I NEVER HAVE BEEN.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE  DIDN'T ALLOW IN OUR FAMILY, MY WIFE AND I.

AND, YOU KNOW, MAYBE IF WE COULD TALK TO THE GAMERS WHO  HAVE VIOLENT GAMES.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT THEY DO FOR HOURS AND HOURS ON END.

I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT.

>> Gene: SURE, THAT'S FAIR.

ABSOLUTELY.

GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN-GRISHAM TOLD REPORTERS ON TUESDAY SHE WILL AGAIN PURSUE WHAT SHE CALLS AN  ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN AND AGE RESTRICTIONS FOR PURCHASING  FIREARMS IN THE NEXT SESSION, AND SOME DEMOCRATIC  LAWMAKERS ARE SIGNALING THEY WILL CARRY BILLS FOR LONGER  WAITING PERIODS.

IS LEGISLATION THE ANSWER TO  WHAT WE CAN ALL AGREE IS A DEVASTATING PROBLEM IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Duncan: I DON'T THINK LEGISLATION IS THE PROBLEM.

I THINK IT'S THE LACK OF THE  FAMILY UNIT.

I THINK IT'S THE LACK OF  VALUES THAT WOULD ENCOMPASS TREATING PEOPLE AS THEIR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AND DRIVING ON THAT.

SO I THINK THERE'S A LOT MORE PROBLEMS OUT THERE THAT  WE HAVE TO SOLVE BEFORE -- WE'VE GOT LOTS AND LOTS OF  LAWS ON THE BOOKS.

>> Gene: WHAT MIGHT SURPRISE PEOPLE ABOUT HOW QUICKLY FARMINGTON CAME  TOGETHER AFTER THIS TRAGEDY?

>> Duncan: I THINK LIKE A  LOT OF SMALL RURAL COMMUNITIES THROUGHOUT OUR  STATE, WE KNOW EACH OTHER.

WE LOVE EACH OTHER, AND  WE'RE THERE FOR ONE ANOTHER, WHETHER IT'S A SMALL EVENT  THAT WE NEED TO BE AT OR A TRAGEDY LIKE THIS.

I THINK THE CITIZENS WITHIN OUR COMMUNITY WERE VERY,  VERY QUICK TO SHOW SUPPORT, AND I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW  MANY EMAILS AND TEXTS AND CALLS THAT WE'VE GOTTEN.

>> Gene: HOW ABOUT FOR STUDENTS AND PARENTS?

OBVIOUSLY THIS IS A DIFFICULT TIME TO TRY TO  COME BACK TOGETHER.

HOW DOES A COMMUNITY RALLY  FOR STUDENTS AND YOUNG PEOPLE AND TEACHERS?

>> Duncan: WELL, I THINK -- FARMINGTON HAD THEIR  GRADUATION LAST NIGHT, AND I THINK THAT AS YOU GO BACK TO  A NORMAL LIFE AND AS PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE DOING  EVERYTHING WE POSSIBLY CAN TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE  THINGS DON'T HAPPEN, AND WE CAN'T LIVE OUR LIFE IN FEAR.

WE'VE GOT TO GO ABOUT OUR LIFE, AND THESE YOUNG PEOPLE DESERVE THAT.

THEY DESERVE TO KNOW THAT  THAT GRADUATION IS A GREAT THING, AND THEN TO START THE  NEXT PHASE OF THEIR LIFE AND TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

>> Silva: FROM WHAT I'VE GATHERED FROM OUR PUBLIC  SCOPING AND CIVIC ENGAGEMENT, AS WELL AS  TRIBAL ENGAGEMENT, I GET THE DISTINCT IMPRESSION THAT  PEOPLE WANT TO PRESERVE THOSE VALUES IN THE BACK  COUNTRY.

AND SO IT WILL BE A FUNCTION  OF FINDING THAT RIGHT BALANCE OF HOW MANY VISITORS  CAN WE SUSTAIN IN THE BACK COUNTRY WHILE MAINTAINING  THOSE VALUES.

>> Gene: NOW IT'S TIME TO WELCOME IN A SPECIAL PANEL THIS WEEK AS WE FOCUS ON OUR SOUTHERN BORDER.

I’M HAPPY TO BE JOINED IN STUDIO THIS WEEK BY SOPHIA  GENOVESE.

SHE'S A MANAGING ATTORNEY AT  THE NEW MEXICO IMMIGRANT LAW CENTER.

ROBERTO ROSALES IS HERE, A LONGTIME PHOTO-JOURNALIST  WHO JUST RETURNED FROM THE BORDER AND WHOSE IMAGES YOU  SEE AROUND OUR SET TONIGHT.

AND IT’S GREAT TO HAVE  JOURNALIST ALGERNON D’AMMASSA BACK WITH US, NOW  EDITOR AT THE DEMING HEADLIGHT.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE AND MAKING THE TRIP UP HERE.

LAST WEEK, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION LIFTED TITLE  42, A PANDEMIC-ERA POLICY ENACTED BY THE TRUMP  ADMINISTRATION IN 2020.

IT ALLOWED THE U.S. TO DENY  ENTRY TO NEARLY ALL MIGRANTS SEEKING ASYLUM IN THIS  COUNTRY, SHUTTING DOWN THE BORDER IN WHAT THE  ADMINISTRATION CALLED A PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURE IN  APRIL 2022.

THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE  CONTROL AND PREVENTION SAID THERE WAS NO PUBLIC HEALTH  BASIS TO CONTINUE TITLE 42, BUT IT REMAINED IN PLACE  UNTIL LAST WEEK FOLLOWING A STAY FROM THE U.S. SUPREME  COURT, OF COURSE, THAT YOU HEARD ABOUT.

NOW, THE POLICY ENDED LAST THURSDAY AS THE DECLARED  NATIONAL COVID-19 PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY EXPIRED.

ROBERTO, YOU'VE DOCUMENTED IMMIGRATION AND THE BORDER FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

YOU'VE TRAVELED THERE.

YOU JUST GOT BACK OVER THE WEEKEND.

WHAT DID YOU SEE DOWN THERE?

WAS THERE A RUSH OF  MIGRANTS, LIKE MANY HAD FORECASTED?

WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE?

>> Roberto: IT WASN'T A RUSH, IF YOU CAN SAY THAT.

A LOT OF THEM WERE ALREADY  IN PLACE WAITING FOR THE GATES TO OPEN AND TO BE  PROCESSED.

HOWEVER, THERE WERE SOME  IMMIGRANTS WHO WERE JUST GETTING TO CIUDAD JUAREZ AND  TRYING TO COME ACROSS THE RIO GRANDE AND GET IN LINE.

BUT LITTLE BY LITTLE, THEY STARTED UNDERSTANDING THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG PROCESS, AND SOME  FOLKS GOT THERE TOO LATE.

AT MIDNIGHT, WHEN THAT  BORDER CLOSED, THEY WERE STUCK IN LIMBO AND NO IDEA  WHAT TO DO.

>> Gene: INTERESTING.

GIVE US A SENSE OF WHAT YOU SAW.

FAMILIES?

SINGLE MEN?

MOMS?

>> Roberto: VERY FEW SINGLE MEN.

MOSTLY FAMILIES, MOTHERS WITH THEIR KIDS.

A LOT OF THEM FROM  VENEZUELA.

MOSTLY FROM VENEZUELA.

NICARAGUA, HONDURAS.

YEAH, VENEZUELA SEEMS TO BE THE MAIN COUNTRY THAT WAS REPRESENTED HERE.

YOU CAN DISTINGUISH THEM BY DIFFERENT ACCENTS.

>> Gene: I BET YOU CAN, RIGHT, AT THIS POINT.

>> Roberto: IT'S SUPER  INTERESTING.

BUT THEY ALL HAVE ONE COMMON  THREAD, WHICH IS THE STRUGGLE TO GET HERE AND  LEAVE A VOLATILE SITUATION BACK IN THEIR HOME.

VERY SAD, AND YET POWERFUL IN A WAY, THAT DETERMINATION TO COME HERE.

>> Gene: INTERESTING.

SOPHIA, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT MIGRATION, SOME OF THE  STORIES YOU HEAR ABOUT THE TRAVEL.

VENEZUELA IS NOT EXACTLY AROUND THE CORNER.

BUILDING EMPATHY FOR FOLKS WHO ARE TRYING TO BUILD A NEW LIFE, HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT IN OUR DISCUSSION ABOUT  IMMIGRATION HERE IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Sophia: I THINK SO OFTEN IN THESE LARGER CONVERSATIONS, WE FORGET  THAT THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SEEKING SAFETY FOR  THEMSELVES, FOR THEIR FAMILIES, AND WE ENCOUNTER  FOLKS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD IN OUR WORK AT NMILC.

A LOT OF FOLKS FROM VENEZUELA RECENTLY, BUT  INCREASINGLY COLUMBIA, ECUADOR, PERU, A LOT OF  INDIGENOUS FOLKS.

BUT PEOPLE INCREASINGLY ARE  FLEEING TOTALITARIAN REGIMENS, THEY'RE FLEEING  HUNGER, THE IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE, FOR A NUMBER  OF REASONS, AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT  THEY'RE LEAVING BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING PUSHED OUT OF  THEIR COUNTRIES.

THEY'RE NOT LEAVING FOR ANY  OTHER PULL FACTORS, LIKE U.S. BASED POLICY.

IN OUR WORK, WE ENCOUNTER PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT ONLY  SUFFERED VIOLENCE IN THEIR HOME COUNTRIES, BUT ALL  ALONG THE WAY TO THE UNITED STATES, THROUGH THE DARIEN  GAP, UP AND THROUGH MEXICO.

NEARLY EVERY SINGLE ONE OF  MY CLIENTS HAS BEEN KIDNAPPED, ROBBED, SEXUALLY  ASSAULTED, PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED, AND THEY CONSIDER  THEMSELVES LUCKY BECAUSE THEY MADE IT TO THE BORDER  AND THEY WERE ABLE TO CROSS, AND NOT EVERYONE DOES.

AND SO IT'S A HUGE RISK THAT PEOPLE TAKE WHEN MAKING THAT  JOURNEY.

THEY DON'T MAKE THAT DECISION LIGHTLY.

>> Gene: ALGERNON, AS YOU KNOW, THE CLOSING, LEADING UP, VERY NOISY, A LOT OF PRESS OUT THERE, A LOT OF WARNINGS, AS I MENTIONED TO  ROBERTO, ABOUT THIS SURGE OF MIGRANTS.

BUT THE AP HAS REPORTED A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT DROP IN CROSSINGS, AS ROBERTO MENTIONED.

WHAT HAPPENED HERE IN YOUR MIND?

WHAT WAS THE BIG FALL-OFF HERE?

BECAUSE YOU WOULD THINK EVEN AFTER THE CLOSING OF IT,  THERE STILL WOULD BE A LITTLE BIT OF A PUSH FOR THE BORDER.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> Algernon: RIGHT, AND THERE'S STILL PRESSURE ON  THE BORDER, IT'S JUST THAT MORE OF THAT PRESSURE IS  COMING TO BEAR ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BORDER IN THESE  BORDER TOWNS IN MEXICO.

I LIVE NEAR COLUMBUS, WHICH  HAS A PORT OF ENTRY TO PUERTO PALOMAS, WHICH IS A  PRETTY SMALL COMMUNITY WHERE DOZENS OF PEOPLE ARE WAITING  FOR AN OPPORTUNITY TO ASK FOR ASYLUM.

THEY'RE WORKING WITH NGOs ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER.

AND WHAT SOME OF THEM ARE TELLING ME IS THAT THESE  FOLKS ARE QUIETLY BEING TARGETED.

THEY'RE BEING TARGETED FOR SHAKEDOWNS FROM LOCAL  CRIMINALS, THEY'RE BEING TARGETED FOR PROSTITUTION,  AND THE COLUMBUS PORT OF ENTRY WILL ONLY PROCESS FIVE  INDIVIDUALS PER DAY.

THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID THAT  THEY WOULD HANDLE, AND THEN IMMEDIATELY TRANSPORT THEM  TO EL PASO.

AND SO IT SEEMS AS THOUGH THE SCENES AT THE PORTS OF ENTRY IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO  ARE VERY QUIET, BUT I THINK THAT BY DESIGN, THE POLICY  HAS PUSHED THE VISIBLE SIGNS OF THAT SUFFERING AWAY FROM  PUBLIC VIEW.

>> Gene: I SEE.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR US AS PRESS?

WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO HERE TO GET THIS AWARENESS OUT  THERE A LITTLE BIT MORE?

ARE WE DOING ENOUGH AT THIS  POINT?

>> Algernon: I THINK WE  NEED TO BE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER.

I THINK WE NEED TO BE SPEAKING TO PEOPLE IN  MULTIPLE LANGUAGES.

AND I REALLY THINK THAT WE  NEED TO GO TO SHOW OUR COMMUNITIES FOR WHOM WE'RE  REPORTING THE HUMAN FACE OF THIS.

I THINK THAT ONE LESSON TO DRAW FROM WHAT HAPPENED IN 2019 AND THE WAY THAT THAT COMMUNITY RESPONSE WAS  BECOMING CELEBRATED, IT WAS ALSO BRINGING THE MIGRANTS  INTO THE PUBLIC EYE SO THAT WE COULD SEE THAT THESE ARE  MOMS, THESE ARE CHILDREN.

AND WHEN SUDDENLY THE  SITUATION CHANGED AND THE COMMUNITIES DIDN'T HAVE  THOSE STORIES AND THOSE IMAGES TO REPORT ANYMORE,  BECAUSE THE SUFFERING WAS MOVED TO THE REMAIN IN  MEXICO POLICY AND TITLE 42, I THINK IT TOOK THAT AWAY  FROM THE PUBLIC EYE SO THAT OTHER RHETORIC STARTED TO  DOMINATE THE CONVERSATION.

>> Gene: THANK YOU FOR  SAYING THAT.

THERE'S BEEN A BIT OF  RHETORIC POISONING IN THE DISCOURSE ON THIS.

IT'S EASY TO DEMAGOGUE THIS,  ISN'T IT, AND MAKE PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY'RE LESS THAN  HUMAN.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO  GET AT HERE.

I'LL GO BACK TO YOU,  ROBERTO, ON THIS, AS WELL.

HAVE YOU HAD A CHANCE TO  TALK TO PEOPLE WHILE YOU WERE THERE?

>> Roberto: YES.

>> Gene: OKAY.

I'M INTERESTING -- IT'S HARD TO PUT ONE'S PLACE IN  ANOTHER PERSON'S PLACE, BUT I'M INTERESTED IN THE FEAR  FACTOR THAT YOU DEAL WITH THAT YOU HEAR FROM THESE  MOMS AND SUCH.

>> Roberto: YOU KNOW, A LOT  OF THEM -- I'LL PICK FOLKS FROM HONDURAS.

YOU KNOW, THE GANG VIOLENCE, THE LACK OF OPPORTUNITIES  FOR THE KIDS TO JUST GO TO SCHOOL, JUST TO LIVE A  NORMAL LIFE.

NOT EVEN TO JUST GET AHEAD,  BUT JUST TO BE NORMAL, IT'S NOT AN OPTION.

AND OF COURSE, WE KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING IN VENEZUELA.

THAT CLIMATE IS JUST AWFUL  RIGHT NOW, AND PEOPLE ARE JUST HAVING TO CROSS THE  DARIEN GAP AND THE EXPERIENCE AWFUL SITUATIONS.

YOU KNOW, SEXUAL ABUSE, BEING ROBBED.

YOU NAME IT, THEY'VE GONE THROUGH IT.

BUT THEY ALL -- THEY'RE NOT JUST COMING HERE BECAUSE  THEY WANT TO WORK AND THEY WANT TO LEAVE THEIR HOME,  WHICH, YOU KNOW, GOES AGAINST WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE IN THE U.S.

THINK, THEY JUST WANT TO COME HERE AND  WORK.

YES, BUT THEY'RE NOT LEAVING  BECAUSE THEY WANT TO.

IF THEY HAD A CHOICE, I'M  SURE THEY WOULD REMAIN IN THEIR HOMES.

BUT THAT IS THE COMMON MESSAGE THAT I'M HEARING  EVERYWHERE.

>> Gene: INTERESTING.

THAT'S VERY INTERESTING.

SOPHIA, LET'S BACK UP A LITTLE BIT.

WHAT IMPACT DID THE END OF TITLE 42 HAVE ON PEOPLE YOU  REPRESENT AND ADVOCATE FOR?

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHAT  WAS IT ROOTED IN?

>> Sophia: TO GIVE A LITTLE  MORE CONTEXT FOR TITLE 42, IT WAS IMPLEMENTED IN  MARCH 2020 BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND THEY  USED THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC AS A PRETEXT TO ENACT THIS  NEW ASYLUM BAN AT THE BORDER.

SO WHAT WAS HAPPENING OVER THE PAST THREE YEARS IS  ASYLUM SEEKERS AND MIGRANTS, WHEN THEY ATTEMPTED TO ENTER  THE UNITED STATES, THEY WERE IMMEDIATELY EXPELLED.

THEY WERE EITHER EXPELLED TO MEXICO AND IN SOME INSTANCES  EXPELLED TO THEIR COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN.

AND THERE WERE THREE MILLION EXPULSIONS OVER THE PAST  THREE YEARS.

AND THAT THREE MILLION  ENCOMPASSES SOMETIMES THE SAME ADULT TRYING TO CROSS  SEVERAL TIMES, AND THAT NUMBER CAPTURES THEM  MULTIPLE TIMES.

SO IN OUR WORK IN NEW  MEXICO, WHEN SOMEONE REACHES US IN ALBUQUERQUE OR  THROUGHOUT THE STATE, WE ENCOUNTER FOLKS WHO HAVE  BEEN EXPELLED MULTIPLE TIMES UNDER TITLE 42, BUT FINALLY  WERE ABLE TO ACCESS THE ASYLUM SYSTEM AND ARE NOW  PROCEEDING IN THAT SYSTEM.

SO IT HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON  FOLKS TRYING TO SEEK SAFETY.

THEY WERE PUSHED BACK INTO  MEXICO, SUBJECTED TO VIOLENCE THAT MIGRANTS ARE  SUBJECTED TO THERE, SO IT HAD QUITE AN IMPACT ON  ACCESS.

>> Gene: I CAN IMAGINE.

ALGERNON, FOR IMMIGRANTS AND MIGRANTS LIVING HERE IN NEW  MEXICO ALREADY, IS THERE ANY BOUNCE FROM THIS, SO TO  SPEAK, ANYTHING THAT WE SHOULD BE AWARE OF FROM  FOLKS THAT ARE ALREADY HERE?

>> Algernon: WELL, JUST  THAT THERE ARE STILL NGOs AND PEOPLE IN COMMUNITIES  HELPING PEOPLE WITH NEEDS ASSESSMENTS, MAKING TRAVEL  ARRANGEMENTS, IF NEEDED.

WHAT STRIKES ME IS THAT  HISTORICALLY, THERE WAS A TIME WHEN WE ACTUALLY HAD A  FAMILY CASE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM TO WORK WITH PEOPLE  WHILE THEIR CASES WERE IN PROCESS.

WE DID NOT HAVE THE SYSTEM OF DETENTION CENTERS THAT WE  SEE.

WE HAD A SYSTEM WHERE  SOMEBODY CALLED YOU UP AND SPOKE SPANISH OR WHATEVER  YOUR LANGUAGE WAS AND SAID, DO YOU HAVE EVERYTHING YOU  NEED, HERE'S YOUR COURT DATE, ARE YOU GOING TO MAKE  YOUR COURT DATE?

AND THE DATA THAT I SAW WAS  THAT THAT WAS MUCH LESS EXPENSIVE THAN WHAT WE DO  NOW.

IT WAS ALSO PHENOMENALLY  SUCCESSFUL.

AND SOME OF THE COMPANIES,  THE CONTRACTORS, THAT WERE INVOLVED IN THIS SYSTEM OF  FAMILY CASE MANAGEMENT APPROACH WERE THE SAME  CONTRACTORS THAT ARE NOW KNOWN FOR RUNNING THESE  DETENTION FACILITIES FOR MIGRANTS.

CORECIVIC I THINK WAS ONE OF THEM.

AND WE JUST MOVED AWAY FROM THAT TO SOMETHING THAT IS A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE/LUCRATIVE.

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, WE DO HAVE LOCAL BORDER COMMUNITIES SERVING THAT GAP, CHURCHES AND  NONPROFITS, THAT ARE STILL DOING THAT WORK AND HELPING  FAMILIES, AND IN SOME PLACES EVEN THE INDIVIDUAL  UNACCOMPANIED MINORS.

>> Gene: YOU ANTICIPATED A QUESTION.

THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING THAT.

I WANT TO BOUNCE THAT TO SOPHIA REAL QUICK.

BORDER TOWNS, ALGERNON  MENTIONED COLUMBUS WHERE HE'S AT, WHAT'S BEEN THE  SITUATION FOR BORDER TOWNS?

IS IT GETTING BETTER?

IS IT SAFER FOR MIGRANTS AND IMMIGRANTS IN NEW MEXICO NOW?

WHAT'S GOING ON?

>> Sophia: THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION, AND I THINK OFTEN  THE QUESTION IS FLIPPED.

ARE MIGRANTS CAUSING PUBLIC  SAFETY CONCERNS IN THESE BORDER TOWNS, AND THE ANSWER  IS, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

BY AND LARGE, BORDER CITIES  HAVE BEEN WELCOMING CITIES.

THE CITIES HAVE BEEN  CROSS-NATIONAL, FOR EXAMPLE, BECAUSE COMMUNITIES ARE SPLIT ACROSS THE BORDER.

AND SO THERE'S A WELCOMING  SENSE AMONGST ORDINARY FOLKS WHO LIVE IN THESE BORDER  TOWNS.

BUT WHAT'S WINNING THE  NARRATIVE ARE OFTEN FROM WHITE NATIONALISTS WHO ARE  NOT IN THESE BORDER TOWNS.

AND TO THE EARLIER POINT  ABOUT CASE MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS, YES, IT'S 100% --  WELL, NOT 100%, BUT IT'S MUCH CHEAPER TO WELCOME  PEOPLE WITH DIGNITY AND HOLISTICALLY PROVIDE FOR  THEIR NEEDS THROUGH CASE MANAGEMENT, SOCIAL SERVICES,  LEGAL ACCESS, AND IT'S WAY MORE EXPENSIVE TO ENGAGE IN  THESE CARCERAL POLICIES, ENFORCEMENT POLICIES ALONG  THE BORDER.

AND ALL THAT DOES IS PUSH  PEOPLE FURTHER INTO THE SHADOWS AND CAUSES MORE CHAOS.

>> Gene: I CAN IMAGINE THAT.

THANKS TO OUR LINE PANELISTS RIGHT THERE.

WE'LL BE BACK IN ABOUT 15  MINUTES TO TALK ABOUT THE SHIFTING NATIONAL LANDSCAPE  FOR IMMIGRATION.

>> Baur: THE POINT IS THAT  WE'VE CREATED THE CRIMINAL COURT SYSTEM UNFORTUNATELY  AS ONE OF THE ONLY WAYS TO ADDRESS THESE SOCIAL ISSUES,  AND IT IS UNDERFUNDED FOR ALL OF US, IT IS  UNDERSTAFFED.

AND SO THERE IS A  BUREAUCRACY OF THE COURTS AND THE JAILS, AND WE  STRUGGLE TO KEEP UP.

OUR PROBLEM, AND ONE OF THE  THINGS WE TRIED TO ADDRESS WITH THIS BILL, IS TO MAKE  THINGS MOVE MORE QUICKLY SO THAT IT ACTUALLY SERVES THE  COMMUNITY BETTER.

>> Gene: AT VALLES CALDERA, THE NATIONAL PARK’S SERVICE IS TRYING TO BALANCE ACCESS  WITH PROTECTING WILDLIFE AND ECOSYSTEMS, AND CHANGES  MIGHT BE COMING SOON.

LAST WEEK WE HEARD FROM  WATCHDOG TOM RIBE FROM CALDERA ACTION.

THIS WEEK, OUR LAND’S LAURA PASKUS SITS DOWN WITH VALLES  CALDERA NATIONAL PRESERVE SUPERINTENDENT JORGE SILVA  BAÑUELOS AS THE PARK SERVICE WORKS ON A NEW MANAGEMENT  PLAN FOR THE SPECIAL SPOT IN THE JEMEZ MOUNTAINS.

>> Laura: HI, AND WELCOME.

>> Silva: THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Laura: SO YOU OVERSEE  WHAT'S ARGUABLY ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL SPOTS IN NEW  MEXICO, 89,000 ACRES IN THE JEMEZ MOUNTAINS.

AND NATIONAL PARK SERVICE OVERSEES IT NOW, BUT IT HAS  A LONG HISTORY WITH VARIED MANAGEMENT.

WHAT HAS MADE MANAGEMENT OF THIS AREA SO COMPLICATED, OR  WHAT MAKES IT UNIQUE?

>> Silva: YOU KNOW, I AGREE, IT'S A VERY INSPIRING LOCATION.

THE LANDSCAPE IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST STUNNING IN NEW MEXICO, AND HAVING GROWN UP IN ALBUQUERQUE, I'VE HAD  THE OPPORTUNITY TO TRAVEL ALL AROUND NEW MEXICO AND  THIS IS BY FAR MY FAVORITE PLACE AND WHY I'M SO  PASSIONATE ABOUT THIS LOCATION.

IT HAS A REALLY INTERESTING HISTORY DATING BACK INTO THE 19th CENTURY WHEN IN ABOUT 1860, IT BECAME A PRIVATE  LAND HOLDING, AND IT'S BEEN UNDER KIND OF DISPUTE OVER  HOW IT'S MANAGED EVER SINCE.

THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE  FIRST TRIED TO ACQUIRE VALLES CALDERA IN 1898, AND  OVER THE CENTURIES THEY TRIED MULTIPLE TIMES, AND IT  WASN'T UNTIL 2015, OR 2014 THAT THAT OCCURRED.

BUT OVER THAT TIME, I THINK THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF DIFFERENT INTERESTS, WHETHER FROM PRIVATE RANCH  LANDOWNERS TO DIFFERENT FEDERAL AGENCIES INTERESTED  IN IT, TO STATE GOVERNMENTS INTERESTED IN MANAGING IT,  TO TRIBAL ENTITIES INTERESTED IN OWNING AND  MANAGING IT.

SO I THINK THAT JUST -- FOR  ME, THAT TENDS TO INDICATE HOW SPECIAL IT IS, THAT SO  MANY PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN MAKING SURE THAT THE  LONG-TERM FUTURE IS PROTECTED FOR IT.

>> Laura: BACK WHEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS  GETTING READY TO BUY THE PRIVATE RANCH, I WAS PRETTY  EXCITED BECAUSE I HAD KIND OF PEERED INTO THOSE LANDS  FOR A LONG TIME, AND I HAVE TO ADMIT I STILL AM NOT  QUITE SURE -- AND I'M LIKE PRETTY SAVVY ABOUT PUBLIC  LANDS AND RECREATION.

I'M STILL NOT QUITE SURE,  LIKE, WHAT MY OPPORTUNITIES ARE FOR DOING COOL THINGS AT  VALLES CALDERA.

>> Silva: WELL, I THINK THE  PARK WEBSITE IS PROBABLY THE FIRST PLACE TO LOOK AT WHAT  ALL WE OFFER CURRENTLY, GIVEN THOSE LIMITATIONS WITH  INFRASTRUCTURE AND SERVICES.

BUT RIGHT NOW, A LOT OF  THOSE OPPORTUNITIES ARE RELATED TO SELF-GUIDED  RECREATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES.

WE HAVE HUNDREDS OF MILES OF  HIKING TRAILS THAT ARE ALSO OPEN TO HORSEBACK RIDING AS  WELL AS MOUNTAIN BIKING.

THAT TENDS TO BE A LITTLE  BIT UNIQUE WITHIN THE NATIONAL PARK SYSTEM.

MOST NATIONAL PARKS DON'T ALLOW MOUNTAIN BIKING EXCEPT  ON PAVED ROADS.

BUT TO SOME DEGREE, WE'RE  TRYING TO MAKE LEMONADE OUT OF LEMONS.

THE PRIVATE LAND USE HISTORY IS CHOCK FULL OF EXAMPLES OF EXPLOITATION OF THIS LANDSCAPE.

WE HAVE OVER A THOUSAND MILES OF LOGGING ROADS FROM THE 20th CENTURY.

A LOT OF THOSE LOGGING ROADS END UP BEING VERY SUITABLE FOR SOMETHING LIKE MOUNTAIN BIKING THAT ISN'T GOING TO  CREATE ANYMORE DISTURBANCES OR IMPACTS TO NATURAL  CULTURAL RESOURCES.

SO THAT'S A SIGNIFICANT  OPPORTUNITY THAT WE CAN PROVIDE THAT OTHERS CANNOT.

WE ALSO HAVE OTHER OPPORTUNITIES WITH OUR INTERPRETIVE PROGRAMMING.

WE'RE STARTING TO BUILD THAT  UP WHERE WE'RE PROVIDING RANGER LED TALKS AND WALKS,  AS WELL AS MORE NONPERSONAL EXHIBITS OUT IN THE  LANDSCAPE TO SHARE WHY THIS PLACE IS MORE THAN JUST A  PRETTY LANDSCAPE, BUT HAS DEEP HISTORICAL ROOTS IN NEW  MEXICO, WHY IT'S OF INCREDIBLY SACRED AND  CEREMONIAL IMPORTANCE TO NUMEROUS AMERICAN INDIAN  TRIBES AND PUEBLOS, AND THOSE ARE THINGS THAT WE  ALSO HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND AS WE ARE DEVELOPING  RECREATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES, THAT WE'RE BALANCING THE  PRESERVATION OF THOSE VALUES.

>> Laura: YOU'VE BEEN GETTING SOME PUSHBACK FOR A  NEW ONLINE RESERVATION SYSTEM.

THAT'S 35 DAILY BACK COUNTRY VEHICLE PERMITS.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN, AND HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO VISIT?

>> Silva: WELL, IN 2021, WE HAD ABOUT 76,000 VISITORS, AND FROM OUR VISITATION  STATISTICS IN 2015, WHEN WE FIRST STARTED TAKING OVER AS  THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, WE ESTIMATED THERE WERE  ABOUT 30,000.

SO WE'VE SEEN A MARKED  INCREASE ALREADY.

I BELIEVE THAT'S GOING TO  CONTINUE TO GROW, PARTICULARLY AFTER WE  IMPROVE OUR INFRASTRUCTURE AND SERVICES.

BUT THERE'S A BALANCE, AS I'VE SHARED BEFORE.

WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO GO WITH OUR GENERAL MANAGEMENT PLAN RIGHT NOW IS FIRST LOOK AT OUR ZONING MANAGEMENT, AND THIS IS SIMILAR TO ANY CITY OR TOWN WHERE YOU IDENTIFY WHERE IS THERE RESIDENTIAL ZONING, WHERE IS THERE COMMERCIAL, WHERE IS INDUSTRIAL, AND YOU DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO MIX THOSE.

IN THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, WE DO A SIMILAR TYPE OF ZONING MANAGEMENT,  AND WE'VE IDENTIFIED CERTAIN AREAS IN A PRELIMINARY  FASHION WHERE WE WANT TO FOCUS MORE ON THAT VISITOR  ENGAGEMENT ZONE WHERE MOST OF OUR INFRASTRUCTURE, MOST  OF OUR VISITOR SERVICES ARE GOING TO BE LOCATED.

AND THEN AS YOU BRANCH OUT FROM THOSE LOCATIONS, YOU HAVE A SELF-GUIDED ZONE AND THEN A BACK COUNTRY  SELF-RELIANCE ZONE.

AND THE FARTHER YOU GO FROM  THESE VISITOR ENGAGEMENT ZONES, THE LESS  INFRASTRUCTURE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE, THE MORE PRIMITIVE,  THE MORE WILD EXPERIENCE.

AND FOR OUR BACK COUNTRY  SELF-RELIANCE ZONE, WE'RE FRANKLY NOT PRIORITIZING  HUMAN USES, WE'RE PRIORITIZING ECOSYSTEM  SERVICES, WILDLIFE HABITAT, PLANT HABITAT, AND ALL OF  THOSE THINGS THAT MAKE THIS PLACE EXTREMELY SPECIAL.

SO WHEN YOU GO OUT INTO THE BACK COUNTRY, WE DON'T WANT  IT TO BECOME A DISNEYLAND.

WE'VE HEARD MANY, MANY TIMES  OVER THE YEARS, THIS PLACE IS SO SPECIAL, WE DON'T WANT  IT TO BE LOVED TO DEATH.

AND SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE  TRYING TO FOCUS MORE OF OUR VISITATION IN OUR FRONT  COUNTRY WHERE WE CAN HAVE MORE INFRASTRUCTURE,  CONCENTRATE VISITORS, CONCENTRATE ANY IMPACTS THAT  THOSE VISITORS MAY HAVE, AND LEAVE THE VAST MAJORITY OF  THE PRESERVE IN A MORE PRIMITIVE WILD STATE.

SO WHEN IT COMES TO OUR BACK COUNTRY VEHICLE PASS, WE WANTED TO MOVE IT ON TO ONLINE RESERVATION SERVICE  SO WHETHER YOU'RE COMING FROM ALBUQUERQUE OR  ANCHORAGE, ALASKA, YOU HAVE THE SAME ABILITY TO RESERVE  AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE THAT BACK COUNTRY EXPERIENCE.

AND THAT ALSO GOES TOWARDS THAT NATIONAL PARK  EXPERIENCE, THAT IF YOU'RE COMING FROM OUT OF STATE OR  EVEN INTERNATIONALLY, THAT YOU CAN FIND THESE  OPPORTUNITIES TO HAVE EQUITABLE ACCESS TO TAKE  ADVANTAGE OF THEM.

IN TERMS OF THE 35 LIMIT,  THAT'S A LEGACY FROM THE PRIOR FEDERAL AGENCY MANAGING THE PRESERVE.

IN OUR GENERAL MANAGEMENT  PLAN, ONE OTHER ASPECT WE'RE GOING TO BE WORKING ON IS  OVERALL CARING CAPACITY.

AGAIN, GROUNDED IN THAT  ZONING MANAGEMENT.

THAT 35 MAY CHANGE.

IT MAY GO UP, IT MAY STAY THE SAME.

WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN THAT FAR YET IN OUR GENERAL  MANAGEMENT PLANNING PROCESS YET.

BUT WHERE WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS WILL  BE BASED ON, ONE, SAFETY OF VISITORS.

RIGHT NOW, THAT BACK COUNTRY ROAD IS A ONE LANE DIRT  ROAD, SO IT DOESN'T HAVE A LOT OF CARRYING CAPACITY AS  IT STANDS.

BUT ALSO, WHAT ARE THE  VALUES THAT WE'RE TRYING TO MAINTAIN.

WHAT ARE THOSE FUTURE DESIRED CONDITIONS THAT WE  WANT TO MAINTAIN IN THE BACK COUNTRY, AND NOT MAKING THIS  A PAVED ROAD WHERE, YOU KNOW, ALL OF OUR VISITORS  CAN DRIVE BACK THERE, THAT WOULD CHANGE THE FEELING AND  EXPERIENCE OF OUR BACK COUNTRY SIGNIFICANTLY.

AND FROM WHAT I'VE GATHERED FROM OUR PUBLIC SCOPING AND  CIVIC ENGAGEMENT, AS WELL AS TRIBAL ENGAGEMENT, I GET THE DISTINCT IMPRESSION THAT PEOPLE WANT TO PRESERVE  THOSE VALUES IN THE BACK COUNTRY.

AND SO IT'LL BE A FUNCTION OF FINDING THAT RIGHT  BALANCE OF HOW MANY VISITORS CAN WE SUSTAIN IN THE BACK  COUNTRY WHILE MAINTAINING THOSE VALUES.

>> Laura: SEEMS LIKE THAT BALANCE CAN BE REALLY  TRICKY, THOUGH, BECAUSE I CAN --   I'M CURIOUS IF PEOPLE CAN'T, ESPECIALLY NEW  MEXICANS, CAN'T EXPERIENCE THOSE LANDS FIRSTHAND, IF  THEY DON'T GET THE BACK COUNTRY PERMIT IN TIME, OR  THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WHEN THEY GET THERE,  POTENTIALLY IT MAKES PEOPLE LESS INTERESTED IN PROTECTING IT FOR THE LONG-TERM.

SO I'M CURIOUS HOW THE PARK SERVICE CAN BALANCE THAT.

BECAUSE IT REALLY DOES SEEM LIKE PEOPLE WANT TO GET IN  THERE, BECAUSE WE LOVE OUR PUBLIC LANDS.

SO HOW DO YOU BALANCE THAT?

>> Silva: WELL, THERE'S TWO  THINGS.

ONE, IN THIS PROCESS, WE'RE  TRYING TO EXPAND HOW FAR VISITORS CAN GO IN THEIR  VEHICLES WITHOUT ANY SORT OF A PERMIT OR PASS IN THE  FIRST PLACE.

AND FOR THE LONGEST TIME,  WHEN IT WAS A PRIVATE RANCH, THAT ACCESS WAS LIMITED TO  NEW MEXICO STATE ROUTE 4 ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE VALLES GRANDE.

WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO MOVE OUR PRIMARY FRONT COUNTRY VISITOR ENGAGEMENT ZONE IS  ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE VALLES GRANDE, WHERE THAT  CAN SERVE AS A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT OF DEPARTURE  FOR VARIOUS RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES THROUGHOUT THE  REST OF THE PARK UNIT.

AND WE HAVE A LOT OF OTHER  CULTURAL AND NATURAL VALUES THAT WE CAN SHOWCASE, LIKE  AN OLD GROWTH FOREST, A HISTORY GROVE IN THAT AREA,  A MID 20th CENTURY RANCH AREA WITH A NUMBER OF  HISTORIC CABINS IN THAT LOCATION.

AND FROM THERE, WE HAVE A NUMBER OF TRAILHEADS WHERE YOU CAN GO BEYOND THAT.

THE TWO POINTS THAT I THINK  ARE REALLY IMPORTANT, I THINK WE GET CAUGHT UP ON,  WE NEED A VEHICLE, WE NEED A CAR TO EXPERIENCE OUR PUBLIC  LANDS, AND I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH THAT.

THAT BACK COUNTRY PASS IS ONLY FOR VEHICLES.

IF YOU ARE ON A MOUNTAIN BIKE, IF YOU'RE ON FOOT, IF  YOU'RE ON HORSEBACK, YOU DON'T NEED ANY VEHICLE PASS,  YOU DON'T NEED ANY SORT OF BACK COUNTRY PASS TO GO  BEYOND THAT LOCATION.

SO IT'S HOW DO WE ENGAGE  WITH OUR PUBLIC LANDS MAYBE IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAT IT'S  NOT SO CAR CENTRIC.

AND AGAIN, THIS IS HOW WE  TRY TO PRESERVE THOSE VALUES AND EXPERIENCES THAT PEOPLE  CAN HAVE IN DIFFERENT FORMS.

BUT FROM OUR GENERAL  MANAGEMENT PLANNING, WE ARE SEEKING TO EXPAND QUITE  CONSIDERABLY HOW FAR PEOPLE CAN DRIVE INTO THE PARK  UNIT, AND THEN HAVE TRAILHEADS AND PARKING AREAS  IN THOSE AREAS WHERE THEY CAN SERVE AS POINTS OF  DEPARTURE TO OTHER AREAS WITHIN THE PARK WHERE PEOPLE  CAN GO HIKING, MOUNTAIN BIKING, HORSEBACK RIDING.

RIGHT NOW, THE 35 VEHICLE LIMIT, AS WE'VE IDENTIFIED IT, IT'S NOT CREATING ANY SORT OF LIMITATION FOR  PEOPLE WANTING TO GO INTO THE BACK COUNTRY.

IF YOU GO ON REC.GOV RIGHT NOW, ALL OF OUR DATES ARE  STILL AVAILABLE THAT HAVE BEEN OPENED UP SO FAR.

SO I DON'T BELIEVE WE HAVE EXCEEDED OUR CAPACITY FOR  VISITATION, PARTICULARLY AS MOST VISITORS ARE COMING FOR  ONE TO TWO HOURS AND WE HAVE AMPLE OPPORTUNITIES AND  EXPERIENCES THAT WE CAN PROVIDE IN OUR FRONT COUNTRY  WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO INTO THE BACK.

OVER TIME, AGAIN, WITH THE GENERAL MANAGEMENT PLANNING,  WE DO HAVE A DESIRE TO EXPAND OVERNIGHT CAMPING AND  BACKPACKING OPPORTUNITIES.

THAT WILL CREATE AN  ADDITIONAL OPPORTUNITY TO EXPERIENCE THE BACK COUNTRY  AND BE OUT THERE FOR MULTIPLE DAYS.

AGAIN, A DIFFERENT WAY OF EXPERIENCING IT THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE A VEHICLE.

>> Laura: THANK YOU.

I CANNOT WAIT TO GET OUT THERE WITH A BACKPACK SOME DAY SOON.

>> Silva: EXCELLENT.

>> Laura: THANK YOU.

>> Silva: MY PLEASURE.

>> GENE: WELCOME BACK TO OUR PANEL.

WITH THE FALL OF TITLE 42, MIGRANTS HAVE FEW OPTIONS UNDER A DIFFERENT SECTION OF THE FEDERAL CODE CALLED TITLE 8 BEFORE REACHING AMERICA'S BORDERS.

THEY CAN SEEK HUMANITARIAN PAROLE.

THEY CAN TRY AND GET AN APPOINTMENT AT A BORDER  CHECKPOINT BY A NEW APP CREATED BY THE FEDERAL  GOVERNMENT OR TRY TO CROSS ILLEGALLY.

FIRST OPTION, PAROLE, IS LIMITED TO 30,000 PEOPLE PER MONTH.

AND TENDS TO FAVOR WEALTHIER  MIGRANTS WITH CONNECTIONS IN THE U.S.

THE LATTER TWO, CROSSING ILLEGALLY AND APPLYING VIA  THE APP BOTH REQUIRE APPLYING FOR ASYLUM.

SO, SOPHIA HOW DOES ONE APPLY FOR ASYLUM?

WHAT IS THAT PROCESS LIKE THESE DAYS?

IS A PHONE APP FEASIBLE IN THIS WORLD?

OR IS THAT JUST A BAND-AID?

YOUR TAKE ON THIS.

>> Sophia: THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF CHANGES TO  IMMIGRATION POLICY UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND  THEY HAVEN'T BEEN POSITIVE.

EACH STEP HAS BEEN THROUGH A  STRICT ACCESS TO THE ASYLUM SYSTEM.

SO IN THE WAKE OF LIFTING TITLE 42, THE ADMINISTRATION  HAS SAID THEY WILL EXPAND THE USE OF EXPEDITED REMOVAL  WHICH EXISTS UNDER TITLE 8, THE IMMIGRATION AND  NATIONALITY ACT, AND THAT COVERS OUR ASYLUM PROVISION.

EXPEDITED REMOVAL IS NOTHING NEW.

IT HAS ALWAYS EXISTED AND WHAT HAPPENS IS WHEN PEOPLE  ENTER THE UNITED STATES, THEY ARE PLACED IN EXPEDITED  REMOVAL.

IF THEY STATE THEY ARE  AFRAID TO RETURN TO THEIR COUNTRY OF NATIONALITY, THEY  ARE PLACED INTO CREDIBLE FEAR PROCEEDINGS WHERE THEY  HAVE TO SAY THEY ARE ELIGIBLE FOR ASYLUM UNDER  THE LAW.

AND IF THEY PASS THIS  CREDIBLE FEAR INTERVIEW THEY CAN FINALLY ACCESS THE  ASYLUM SYSTEM.

IF THEY FAIL, THEY ARE  DEPORTED UNDER EXPEDITED REMOVAL AND SUBJECTED TO A  FIVE YEAR BAN ON ENTRY.

NOW, THAT HAS ALWAYS  EXISTED.

WHAT THE BIDEN  ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE IS CREATE NEW REGULATIONS WHICH  MAKE IT HARDER TO MEET THAT INITIAL SCREENING FOR THE  CREDIBLE FEAR PROCESS, HARDER TO ACCESS THE ASYLUM  SYSTEM.

THEY HAVE STATED THAT IF YOU  CROSS THROUGH A THIRD COUNTRY, WHICH IS TYPICALLY  MEXICO, YOU ARE DEEMED INELIGIBLE FOR ASYLUM UNLESS  YOU CAN ESTABLISH AN EXCEPTION AND THESE ARE VERY  NARROW EXCEPTIONS.

>> Gene: WHAT ARE SOME OF  THOSE EXEMPTIONS?

>> Sophia: IF YOU HAVE BEEN  SUBJECTED TO HUMAN TRAFFICKING.

IF AT THE TIME OF ENTRY YOU WERE EXPERIENCING A  SIGNIFICANT MEDICAL EMERGENCY OR FACING SEVERE  HARM.

THAT IS A VERY HIGH STANDARD  TO MEET BUT PEOPLE ARE FACING HARM IN MEXICO.

SO IT IS TO BE SEEN HOW THIS WILL BE APPLIED BY ASYLUM  OFFICERS ALONG THE BORDER.

IN TERMS OF ANOTHER  EXCEPTION, THE OTHER EXCEPTIONS ARE APPLYING FOR  AN APPOINTMENT THROUGH THE CDC1 APP.

WHICH IS REQUIRING MIGRANTS TO UPLOAD DOCUMENTS, UPLOAD  THEIR PHOTOS THROUGH AN APP THAT HAS SECURITY CONCERNS  AND THAT IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN GET AN APPOINTMENT AT  THE PORT OF ENTRY.

>> Gene: THAT IS THE ONLY  WAY?

>> Sophia: THAT IS THE ONLY  WAY YOU CAN GET AN APPOINTMENT AT THE PORT OF  ENTRY.

SO IT IS REQUIRING DUE  PROCESS THROUGH AN APP WHICH IS JUST UNIQUELY AMERICAN  AND THE WORSE POSSIBLE WAY.

PEOPLE ARE FLEEING VIOLENCE  AND ARE FORCED TO GO THROUGH THIS PROCESS THAT DOESN'T  EVEN RESEMBLE DUE PROCESS.

THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO GO TO A  PORT OF ENTRY AND SAY CAN I PLEASE HAVE ASYLUM, I AM IN  DANGER HERE IN MEXICO, IN DANGER IN MY HOME COUNTRY,  SO IT IS BLOCKING OFF THE ASYLUM SYSTEM.

>> Gene: DO WE HAVE A SENSE OF WHERE MEXICO IS COMING  FROM AT THIS TIME POLITICALLY ON THIS IN THEIR  POLICY?

ARE THEY BEING COOPERATIVE  IN THIS IDEA?

THEY JUST WENT THROUGH THE  TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THAT WAS DIFFICULT FOR THEM.

IS THERE A BIT OF BOUNCE IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, OR  COULD IT BE BETTER, THE RELATIONSHIP?

>> Sophia: THERE APPEARS TO BE COOPERATION FROM THE  MEXICAN AUTHORITIES TO RECEIVE THOSE WHO ARE  SUBJECTED TO EXPEDITED REMOVAL.

THEY ARE RECEIVING PEOPLE FROM COUNTRIES NOT FROM  MEXICO, FOR EXAMPLE, UNDER THE EXPEDITED REMOVAL  PROCESS.

WITH THAT SAID, THE  HUMANITARIAN INFRASTRUCTURE IN MEXICO IS NOT SUFFICIENT  TO MEET THE NEEDS OF MIGRANTS AND ASYLUM SEEKERS  WHO ARE SUBJECTED TO TREMENDOUS VIOLENCE.

JUST LOOK AT THE FIRE NOT THAT LONG AGO IN JUAREZ.

42 PEOPLE DIED.

>> Gene: OH, BOY.

I FORGOT ALL ABOUT THAT.

THAT IS RIGHT TOO.

ROBERTO WE HAVE BEEN SO MOVED FOR YEARS BY YOUR  PHOTOGRAPHS DOCUMENTING MIGRATION.

AND THE BORDER.

WHY IS THIS WORK SO  IMPORTANT TO YOU AND WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW, TO  FEEL, TO UNDERSTAND THROUGH YOUR WORK?

>> Roberto: IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN IMPORTANT ISSUE EVER  SINCE I STARTED WORKING THE BORDER IN 2000.

PEOPLE ALSO NEED TO UNDERSTAND THESE ARE CURRENT SITUATIONS THAT ARE SO DIFFICULT TO MANAGE.

ALL THESE FOLKS ARE LEAVING THEIR HOMES, LEAVING FAMILY BEHIND DUE TO VIOLENCE AND I THINK THEY NEED TO BE GIVEN  AN OPPORTUNITY AT LEAST TO REESTABLISH SOME SENSE OF  DECENCY, TO MAYBE, ONE DAY, FROM THE MANY FOLKS I SPOKE  TO, THEY WISH THEY COULD GO BACK IN TIME.

BECAUSE, GO BACK, BUT, THE WAY I SEE IT, IT IS GETTING  MORE DIFFICULT AND MORE DIFFICULT.

BUT, I THINK IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO DOCUMENT, TO BE ON THE GROUND TO PUT A FACE ON THIS STRUGGLE AND THIS  ISSUE THAT IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY ANY TIME SOON.

AND MORE THAN ANYTHING, LISTEN, LISTEN TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY.

AND I AM THERE TO PUT A  FACE, TO DESCRIBE, SHOW, ILLUSTRATE THE HUMAN NEED,  THE HUMANITARIAN NEED TO UNDERSTAND IMMIGRATION ON A  MUCH BETTER SCALE.

>> Gene: HOW FAR OFF ARE WE  IN GENERAL UNDERSTANDING?

COMPLETELY OFF, A LITTLE BIT  OFF?

>> Roberto: I WOULD SAY WAY  OFF.

WE DON'T UNDERSTAND THE  SITUATIONS IN THESE COUNTRIES.

EVERYONE KIND OF GROUPS THEM TOGETHER BUT EACH COUNTRY IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW.

LIKE GUATEMALA, YES, THERE IS VIOLENCE BUT THERE IS  ALSO CLIMATE CHANGE HAPPENING WHICH IS STARTING  TO ADD TO THIS WHOLE EQUATION.

HONDURAS ALSO, BESIDES GANGS, GANG VIOLENCE, A LOT  OF PEOPLE I SPOKE TO, AT SOME OF THE SHELTERS, THEY  ARE FLEEING BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

THEY CAN NO  LONGER WORK THEIR LAND, SO, IT IS GETTING MORE COMPLEX.

>> Gene: IT SOUNDS IT.

ALGERNON BEFORE I WRAP UP  HERE, I MENTIONED THE NATIONAL MOOD.

LISTEN, A COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION BILL HAS NOT  REACHED THE PRESIDENT'S DESK IN THIS 21ST CENTURY.

I MEAN WE HAVEN'T MOVED BUT AN INCH HERE.

THE LAST BIPARTISAN IMMIGRATION REFORM PASSED  1986, THE IMMIGRATION REFORM AND CONTROL ACT.

AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, WHAT NEEDS TO CRACK HERE?

WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN?

>> Algernon: IT SPEAKS TO A  PROFOUND FAILURE OF OR POLITICAL SYSTEM.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WORK SERIOUSLY IN POLICY WHO ADMIT THIS IS A CHALLENGING PROBLEM.

IT IS VERY  DIFFICULT TO BUILD A SYSTEM THAT CAN ACTUALLY  ACCOMMODATE THE NEED IN AN ORDERLY FASHION.

BUT IT ALSO REQUIRES WHAT WE CALL LEADERSHIP AND REAL POLITICAL COURAGE TO STRAIGHTEN THIS OUT.

WHEN TITLE 42 WAS ABOUT TO EXPIRE, WE WERE WARNED FROM THE WHITE HOUSE TO EXPECT CHAOS, THAT IS THE WORD THAT  THE WHITE HOUSE USED TO DESCRIBE THIS, BUT THE CHAOS  IS NOT NEW.

THE CHAOS IS THE CLIMATE CHANGE OF THE FARMING FAMILIES THAT NO LONGER HAVE  LAND.

IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO REALIZE  THEIR KIDS ARE BEING RECRUITED BY GANGS AND HAD  NOTHING TO DO EXCEPT THROW WHAT THEY COULD INTO A  BACKPACK AND START WALKING.

WHAT WE HAVE SOMEHOW MANAGED  TO DO BY PUTTING BAND-AIDS ON IT AND POSTPONING THE  REAL SERIOUS WORK, WE HAVE NOW CREATED SYSTEMS THAT NOT  ONLY PERPETUATE VIOLENCE AND ENRICH CRIMINAL, SYNDICATES.

WE HAVE SOMEHOW MANAGED TO CREATE A CAST SYSTEM WITHIN  MIGRANTS WHO ARE DESPERATE ENOUGH TO WALK ACROSS  CONTINENTS.

WE HAVE SOMEHOW MANAGED A  WAY TO CREATE A SOCIAL CLASS STRUCTURE WITHIN THIS  TORMENTED GROUP.

AND THAT IS REALLY SAYING  SOMETHING ABOUT OUR WISDOM AND OUR LEADERSHIP.

>> Gene: GOOD POINT THERE.

THANKS AGAIN TO THIS ENTIRE  PANEL THIS WEEK FOR HELPING VIEWERS UNDERSTAND THIS  COMPLEX SET OF ISSUES AND THE HUMANITY UNDERNEATH  THEM.

BE SURE TO LET US KNOW WHAT  YOU THINK ABOUT THIS DISCUSSION ON OUR FACEBOOK,  TWITTER AND INSTAGRAM.

CATCH ANY EPISODES MAY HAVE  MISSED ON THE PBS APP, ROKU OR SMART TV.

FINALLY TONIGHT, CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM AT THE LEGISLATURE.

2023 WAS A PRETTY LIGHT YEAR  ON THAT FRONT WITH A FEW NOTABLE EXCEPTIONS.

ONE MEASURE THAT DID GET THROUGH HAS BEEN YEARS IN  THE MAKING, SENATE BILL 84 WOULD HAVE MADE IT TOUGHER  TO LOCK UP PROBATIONERS AND PAROLEES, FOR TICKY TACK  VIOLATIONS LIKE MISSING APPOINTMENTS OR FAILING A  DRUG TEST, BUT DESPITE A RELATIVELY EASY PATH THROUGH  BOTH CHAMBERS, GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM  VETOED THE BILL.

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF  PROCTOR SAT DOWN WITH A PROSECUTOR AND PUBLIC  DEFENDER TO ASK WHETHER THE GOVERNOR DID THE RIGHT THING  AND THE REAL PROBLEMS UNDERNEATH SO-CALLED  TECHNICAL VIOLATIONS.

>> Jeff: BEN BAUR, MARCUS  MONTOYA, THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME HERE TODAY.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Jeff: WE ARE HERE TO TALK  ABOUT TWO GUBERNATORIAL VETOES ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE  REFORM BILLS.

YOU EACH WROTE AN OP-ED  ABOUT THOSE VETOES.

BEN, YOU ARE A PUBLIC  DEFENDER, MARCUS A PROSECUTOR, TO THE GALLOPING  SHOCK OF EXACTLY NOBODY, YOU GUYS DISAGREED.

SO, LET START'S WITH BASIC DEFINITIONS.

MARCUS, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PROBATION AND PAROLE AND WHAT IS THE ROLE OF BOTH OF THOSE THINGS  IN THE SYSTEM?

>> Montoya: ALL RIGHT.

GOOD QUESTION.

SO, PROBATION UPON PLEA AGREEMENT OR ENTRY OF GUILT OR FINDING OF GUILT AT  TRIAL, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A SENTENCE AND THAT SENTENCE  CAN BE PROBATED, WHICH MEANS YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SERVE  ANY TIME IN INCARCERATION.

THAT'S THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF  A BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF HOW PROBATION IS GOING TO  OPERATE.

SO YOU ARE ON TERMS AND  CONDITIONS TO COMPLY WITH THE COURT AND BE MONITORED  TYPICALLY BY PROBATION AND PAROLE.

IF YOU VIOLATE THOSE CONDITIONS, IT'S THE DISCRETION TO POTENTIALLY CHANGE YOUR CONDITIONS OR  REVOKE YOUR CONDITIONS OF RELEASE AND INCARCERATE YOU.

PAROLE IS WHEN YOU HAVE SERVED TIME IN INCARCERATION  AND YOUR NOW RELEASED FROM THAT TIME AND SO NOW YOU ARE  UNDER PAROLE SUPERVISION, BY THE PAROLE BOARD OF THE  DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS.

>> Jeff: SO, THERE ARE TWO  FORMS, ESSENTIALLY, OF STATE SUPERVISION OUTSIDE OF  INCARCERATION CONTEXT.

>> Montoya: THAT IS CORRECT.

>> Jeff: FOR YEARS, WE HAVE HEARD CONVERSATIONS ABOUT  WHAT ARE CALLED TECHNICAL VIOLATIONS.

MARCUS DESCRIBED CONDITIONS THAT YOU'LL HAVE WHETHER ON  PROBATION OR PAROLE AND WE HAVE HEARD IN INTERIM  COMMITTEES AND DURING LEGISLATIVE SESSIONS ABOUT  TECHNICAL VIOLATIONS FOR YEARS.

WHAT IS A TECHNICAL VIOLATION OF PROBATION AND  PAROLE AND WHAT ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF HOW YOU CAN DO  THAT.

>> Baur: THANKS FOR HAVING  ME.

SO, WHEN YOU'RE ON PROBATION  OR PAROLE THERE ARE CERTAIN CONDITIONS YOU HAVE TO MEET.

SHOWING UP TO SEE YOUR PROBATION OFFICER OR PAROLE OFFICER.

PROBABLY NOT DOING DRUGS,  NOT COMMITTING NEW CRIMES, THINGS LIKE THAT, THINGS THAT ARE GENERALLY CONCERNED WITH PUBLIC SAFETY.

TECHNICAL VIOLATIONS ARE THINGS THAT ARE LESS  IMPORTANT.

THEY STILL MAY BE CONDITIONS  AND THEY STILL MAY BE IMPORTANT BUT IT IS THINGS  LIKE MISSING AN APPOINTMENT, OR HAVING A POSITIVE RESULT  ON A DRUG TEST.

SO, ALTHOUGH YOU HAVEN'T  HURT ANYBODY, YOU MAY HAVE DONE DRUGS AND THAT SHOWED  UP ON A TEST.

THE WAY THE SYSTEM HAS  WORKED TRADITIONALLY IS SOMEBODY GETS ACCUSED OF  THAT AND THEN THEY ARE ARRESTED AND HELD IN JAIL  UNTIL THEY GET A HEARING ON IT.

THAT CAN TAKE DAYS, WEEKS OR EVEN MONTHS.

IN THE MEANTIME, THERE IS ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT  HAVE HAPPENED TO SOMEBODY THAT IS IN CUSTODY THAT WE  COULD TALK ABOUT A LITTLE BIT LATER, BUT THE POINT OF  TRYING TO HANDLE TECHNICAL VIOLATIONS DIFFERENTLY IS  THAT YOU ACTUALLY GET TO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO WITH A  PERSON TO ADDRESS IT RATHER THAN WAITING FOR THOSE DAYS  AND WEEKS AND MONTHS AND ALL THE DAMAGE THAT CAN DO.

>> Jeff: THE RESULT OF A TECHNICAL VIOLATION OR  STANDARD VIOLATION OF PROBATION AND PAROLE HAS  BEEN HISTORICALLY IN MANY CASES RE-INCARCERATION,  RIGHT?

SO I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE  BIT ABOUT, MARCUS, FROM YOUR OP-ED PRAISING THE  GOVERNOR'S VETOES OF THESE TWO BILLS WE'RE HERE TO TALK  ABOUT TODAY, YOU MENTIONED THAT BY DOING THAT, BY SORT  OF GETTING RID OF WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED WITH TECHNICAL  VIOLATIONS UNDER SB84, THAT THE GOVERNOR HELPED WITH  COMMUNITY SAFETY.

SO, HOW DOES LOCKING PEOPLE  UP ON THESE TECHNICAL VIOLATIONS BOLSTER COMMUNITY  SAFETY?

>> Montoya: I THINK THERE  MAY BE A MISUNDERSTANDING IN TERMS OF USE, RIGHT.

IF I CAN GO BACK TO WHAT YOU SAID, A LOT OR MANY OR MOST  OF THESE TECHNICAL VIOLATIONS RESULT IN  INCARCERATION.

NOT NECESSARILY.

ACTUALLY I WOULD ARGUE THEY DON'T USUALLY END UP IN INCARCERATION UNLESS THERE IS A PAROLE WARRANT FOR  ARREST TO BRING THEM IN LIKE MR. BAUR'S OUTLINED.

THEY DO HAVE TO WAIT IN JAIL UNTIL THEIR HEARING.

SO I AM NOT GOING TO CONTEST THAT BUT IF THEY ARE MINOR PROBATION OR MINOR PAROLE TECHNICALS, THERE WILL BE A  FILING OF A VIOLATION BY PROBATION AND PAROLE.

OUR OFFICERS REVIEWS IT.

WE FILE FOR A HEARING AND  TYPICALLY, MOST OF THE TIME, THOSE PROBATIONS ARE  REVOKED, THEY GET REINSTATED UNDER SIMILAR CONDITIONS, SO  IT IS KIND OF A YOU NEED TO COMPLY WITH CONDITIONS IS  THE ADMONISHMENT FROM THE COURT.

NOW, IT IS MULTI-FACETED HOW IT PROTECTS THE COMMUNITY.

TO ME THE GRADUATED STEPS AND SANCTIONS THAT THE PROBATION AND PAROLE BILL WOULD ADVISE FOR KIND OF AN  AUTOMATED SYSTEM, I JUST DON'T HAVE A LOT OF VALUE IN  ADDING MORE COMMUNITY SERVICE, POTENTIALLY.

AND COMMUNITY SERVICE IS GOOD GENERALLY BUT IF WE  HAVE AN OFFENDER NOT COMPLYING WITH CERTAIN TERMS  AND CONDITIONS NOT THREATENING, NOT RELATED TO  PUBLIC SAFETY, NONVIOLENT, I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE OR  NEED AN AUTOMATED SYSTEM TO IMPOSE MORE CONDITIONS, SUCH  AS YOU NEED TO DO 20 HOURS OF COMMUNITY SERVICE.

WE ARE ALREADY STRUGGLING TO HAVE THIS OFFENDER COMPLY  WITH CONDITIONS.

I DON'T SEE THE VALUE IN  MANDATING MORE OR ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS.

OR FIVE DAYS OR THREE DAYS OF JAILER OR SEVEN DAYS OF JAIL.

TO ME, I DON'T WANT TO  IDENTIFY IT AS INHERENTLY BAD, IT IS JUST IT DOESN'T  VALUE THE OFFENDER, DOESN'T VALUE THE SYSTEM.

IT DOESN'T PROTECT MY COMMUNITY ANY MORE OR LESS  AND I WOULD ARGUE IT IS MORE BURDENSOME AND ONEROUS ON THE OFFENDER.

MY CONCERN IS THERE ARE  DIFFERENT LEVELS OF SUPERVISION FOR DIFFERENT  TYPES OF OFFENDERS.

AND I THINK IT SHOULD BE  LEFT WITHIN THE DISCRETION OF THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY,  PROSECUTOR AND JUDGE IN THAT DISTRICT ON THAT PARTICULAR  CASE TO DETERMINE THE OUTCOME OF CERTAIN  VIOLATIONS.

AND NOT BEING HANDCUFFED OR  RESTRICTED BY WHAT IS PROPOSED IN THIS BILL.

IF THAT MAKES ANY SENSE, BECAUSE IF I AM GOING TO  AGREE TO A PROBATED SENTENCE UP FRONT, AND THAT IS MY  ONLY OPPORTUNITY UNDER THIS BILL TO IMPOSE A  INCARCERATION OR JAIL TIME, AND IF I DON'T DO INITIAL SENTENCING, I AGREE TO PROBATE AND SENTENCING, BUT  THEN HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH THESE HOOPS, I AM LESS  INCLINED TO AGREE TO A PROBATED SENTENCE.

THERE A LOT OF AGGRAVATING THINGS MITIGATING  CIRCUMSTANCES TO HOW I STRUCTURE A PLEA AGREEMENT  AND AGREE TO SENTENCES AT THE OUTSET.

>> Jeff: OKAY.

BEN, I WANT YOU TO RESPOND  TO THAT.

>> Baur: YEAH, SO, FIRST OF  ALL, I THINK MR. MONTOYA AND I AGREE ON A NUMBER OF  THINGS.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE  STRUGGLE WITH IS THAT THERE ARE SOCIAL ISSUES OUT THERE,  BEHAVIORAL HEALTH ISSUES AND SUBSTANCE ABUSE WHICH  UNDERLIE A LOT OF CRIMES, NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT MOST OF  THE CRIME THAT TAKES PLACE.

AND LET'S -- I THINK ONE OF  THE THINGS WE NEED TO DO IS DEFINE WHAT PUBLIC SAFETY.

THAT MIGHT BE A LONGER PROGRAM BUT REALLY WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE CRIMINAL COURT SYSTEM IS  SUPPOSED TO DO, IT IS SUPPOSED TO KEEP US SAFE.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

IT MEANS THERE ARE CERTAIN  LAWS PASSED THAT YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO VIOLATE.

DON'T HIT PEOPLE.

DON'T HARM PEOPLE.

DON'T STEAL THINGS, ALSO DON'T WALK AROUND WITH DRUGS  IN YOUR POCKET.

DON'T DRIVE AROUND WITH  DRUGS IN YOUR CAR.

DON'T HAVE DRUGS IN YOUR  HOUSE.

NOW, THE USE OF DRUGS CAN  LEAD TO PEOPLE COMMITTING CRIMES, SOMETIMES AGAINST  FAMILY, SOMETIMES AGAINST OTHER PEOPLE AND THOSE CAN  BE REALLY SERIOUS CRIMES, BUT THE POSSESSION ITSELF,  FOR INSTANCE, DOESN'T NECESSARILY HARM ANYBODY  OTHER THAN THE PERSON THAT HAS THEM AND EVEN THEN IT IS  NOT NECESSARILY -- DOESN'T NECESSARILY HARM SOMEBODY.

UP UNTIL JUST ABOUT A YEAR AGO IT WAS ILLEGAL TO  POSSESS MARIJUANA.

NOW IT IS NOT.

WE HAVE CHANGED IT AS A SOCIETY.

THE POINT IS WE HAVE CREATED THE CRIMINAL COURT SYSTEM  UNFORTUNATELY AS ONE OF THE ONLY WAYS TO ADDRESS THESE  SOCIAL ISSUES AND IT IS UNDERFUNDED FOR ALL OF US,  UNDERSTAFFED AND SO THERE IS A BUREAUCRACY OF THE COURTS AND THE JAILS AND WE STRUGGLE TO KEEP UP.

OUR PROBLEM AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE TRIED TO  ADDRESS WITH THIS BILL IS TO  MAKE THINGS MOVE MORE QUICKLY SO THAT IT ACTUALLY  SERVES THE COMMUNITY BETTER.

>> Jeff: I SEE.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE NOTION OF MOVING THINGS LIKE  DRUG ADDICTION AND OTHER SORT OF SOCIETAL PROBLEMS  THAT WE HAVE AWAY FROM THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE CONTEXT.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SOLUTIONS?

AND I WANT YOU BOTH TO WEIGH IN HERE.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SOLUTIONS THAT ARE OUTSIDE  OF THIS CONTEXT?

AND WHY ARE THOSE NOT  PRIORITIZED?

>> Montoya: WE ARE NOT WELL  SITUATED IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM TO DEAL WITH  SOCIAL PROBLEMS, SUCH AS ADDICTION.

AND WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM?

INCAPACITATE, REHABILITATE, DETER.

NOT A WHOLE LOT OF REHABILITATION IS AVAILABLE BUT THE LAW ENFORCEMENT IS A DIVERSION ON MONIES WHERE WE  AS A COUNTY AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND LAW  ENFORCEMENT THROUGH THE PROSECUTORS OFFICE AND  DEFENSE BAR OUTLINE CRITERIA OF OFFENSES THAT ARE  NONVIOLENT WHEREBY AN OFFENDER QUALIFIES, AT THE  POINT OF POTENTIAL ARREST, TO A CASEWORKER TO HELP  ADDRESS THEIR ISSUES.

WHETHER IT BE SOCIOECONOMIC,  MENTAL BEHAVIORAL HEALTH, SUBSTANCE MISUSE DISORDER.

AND THOSE ARE PROGRAMS WHERE I AM ALL FOR IT.

DON'T GIVE ADDICTS TO US TO FIX, BECAUSE WE ARE NOT THE  FIXER.

WE SERVE THOSE THREE PRONGS.

AND WHEN IT BECOMES VIOLENT OR DANGEROUS, I THINK THAT  IS THE BEST PURPOSE OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS  TO INCAPACITATE.

>> Jeff: WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT  THINGS LIKE "WE", RIGHT, LIKE NEW MEXICO IS KIND OF  BEHIND THE REST OF THE COUNTRY IN TERMS OF LIKE  DEVELOPING WEED PROGRAMS.

WE HAVE SEEN THOSE IN OTHER  PLACES IN THE COUNTRY.

YOU MENTIONED ONLY SEVEN  COUNTIES HERE HAVE ONE OF THOSE NOW.

MY REAL QUESTION, WHAT I AM TRYING TO GET AT, IS WHY  HAVEN'T WE MADE THOSE KIND OF PRIORITIZATIONS AMONG  POLICY MAKERS AND OTHERS GIVEN THE STATISTICS HERE,  GIVEN WHERE WE STAND ON THINGS LIKE OVERDOSE DEATH  RATES?

WHAT ARE THE POINTS OF  FAILURE THERE?

>> Baur: TO DEAL WITH THESE  ISSUES, AGAIN, WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT AND I MENTIONED  WHAT I CONSIDER THE BUREAUCRACY OF THE COURT SYSTEM WHICH IS A PRETTY CLUNKY MECHANISM TO ADDRESS  SOCIAL ISSUES AND INDIVIDUALS WITH PROBLEMS,  YOU KNOW, OFTEN OUR CLIENTS AND PEOPLE WHO MR. MONTOYA  IS TRYING TO DEAL WITH, WHOSE FAMILY MEMBERS  SOMETIMES COME TO HIM AND ASK FOR HELP.

GENERALLY ON THE SPECTRUM OF LIKE ARRESTS AND IN THE PAST  A LOT OF THE CONTEXT HAS BEEN WITH POLICE, RIGHT?

SOMEBODY CALLS THE POLICE AND THEY SHOW UP.

I THINK IN NEW MEXICO WE ARE NOT NECESSARILY BEHIND THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

UNFORTUNATELY THE COUNTRY AS  A WHOLE IS PRETTY FAR BEHIND ON WHAT WE DO AND THERE ARE  SOME PROGRAMS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ASSISTED  DIVERSION IS A GOOD ONE.

ALBUQUERQUE COMMUNITY SAFETY PROGRAM HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, WHICH IS DESIGNED WHEN SOMEBODY IS IN A MENTAL  HEALTH CRISIS SEND OUT SOMEBODY THAT IS NOT A  UNIFORMED OFFICER, SOMEBODY WHO IS TRAINED IN MENTAL  HEALTH.

SO THERE ARE SOME REALLY  GOOD PROGRAMS, I THINK, IN NEW MEXICO GOING ON.

BUT WHAT WE ARE CONCERNED WITH AS THE PUBLIC DEFENDER  IS GETTING PEOPLE TO SOMEHOW GET BETTER, TO NOT IMPACT  PUBLIC SAFETY, TO NOT HURT OTHER PEOPLE OR THEMSELVES  WITHOUT RUNNING THEM THROUGH THE BUREAUCRACY OF THE COURT  SYSTEM.

IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COURT  SYSTEM IS JAILS AND PRISON AND OUR JAILS AND PRISONS  ARE IN SUCH BAD SHAPE, I BELIEVE, THAT THEY OFTEN DO  MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

AND THAT IS WHY WE HAVE  LOOKED FOR WAYS TO KEEP PEOPLE OUT AND/OR SHORTEN  THE TIME THEY ARE IN.

>> Gene: THE GOVERNOR VETOED  ANOTHER REFORM BILL THIS YEAR, TOO.

THAT ONE IS RELATED TO SENTENCING ENHANCEMENTS FOR  PEOPLE CONVICTED OF DRUG POSSESSION.

CHECK OUT JEFF'S DISCUSSION WITH MR. BAUR AND MR. MONTOYA ON THAT VETO OVER AT THE NEW MEXICO IN  FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US  THIS WEEK AND FOR STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.