TITLE 42 AND THE SOUTHERN BORDER, IL-LIBERALISM ON THE RISE, AND EXPANDING NATO NORTH-SHOULD FINLAND AND SWEDEN BE THE NEWEST MEMBERS?

STAY TUNED, IVORY TOWER IS NEXT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO "IVORY TOWER."

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY.

ON THE PANEL THIS WEEK ARE KRISTI ANDERSEN FROM THE MAXWELL SCHOOL AT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, CHAD SPARBER FROM COLGATE UNIVERSITY, AND WE WELCOME TY SEIDULE, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY FROM HAMILTON COLLEGE.

TY IS ALSO A PROFESSOR EMERITUS FROM THE UNITED STATES MILITARY ACADEMY AT WEST POINT.

WELCOME TO THE PANEL.

>> THANKS, DAVE.

GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> WE'LL BEGIN THIS WEEK WITH IMMIGRATION, COVID AND THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

NEXT MONTH PRESIDENT BIDEN PLANS TO END TITLE 42.

THAT'S THE TRUMP POLICY THAT USES AUTHORITY UNDER A PUBLIC HEALTH LAW TO EXPEL MIGRANTS BEFORE THEY CAN APPLY FOR ASYLUM.

MANY DEMOCRATS AND PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS SEE TITLE 42 AS AN ANTI-MIGRANT POLICY MASQUERADING AS A COVID RESTRICTION.

BUT OTHERS, INCLUDING BORDER STATE DEMOCRATIC SENATORS, WANT IT TO REMAIN, AT LEAST IN THE SHORT TERM.

ONCE THE ORDER IS LIFTED, SOME ESTIMATES SAY AS MANY AS 18,000 MIGRANTS A DAY MY CROSS INTO THE U.S. CAN WE HANDLE THAT MANY.

>> I HEARD FROM A VIEWER BACK HOME WHO ENJOY THE GRAPHS SO WE'LL TURN TO THE DATA.

HERE IS SOME INFORMATION FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA DAVIS.

A COUPLE THINGS I WANT TO EMPHASIZE.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE DECADE LONG TREND, TRUMP DIDN'T KILL IMMIGRATION FLOWS BUT COVID DID.

WE CURRENTLY HAVE TWO MILLION FEWER WORKING AGE IMMIGRANTS IN THIS COUNTRY THAN PRE-COVID TRENDS WOULD PREDICT.

SECOND THING I WANT TO POINT OUT, IF YOU LOOK AT THE INDUSTRIES WHERE IMMIGRANTS-- INDUSTRIES THAT ARE PARTICULARLY IMMIGRANT DEPENDENT, LIKE HOSPITALITY AND FOOD, THOSE ARE ALSO THE SAME INDUSTRIES THAT ARE HAVING A HARD TIME FILLING THEIR JOBS.

A LOT OF UNFILLED VACANCIES THERE.

THE THIRD THING TO POINT OUT, AND I DON'T NEED A GRAPH FOR THIS IS THAT INFLATION IS TERRIBLE RIGHT NOW.

YOU MIGHT NOT KNOW THE SPECIFICS BUT MEAT IS 13.7% MORE EXPENSIVE THAN A YEAR AGO.

FRUITS AND VEGETABLES 8.5%.

HOTEL STAYS 29%.

PUT ALL THOSE THINGS IN TOGETHER AND YEAH, WE CAN ABSORB MORE IMMIGRANTS.

I DON'T KNOW 18,000 A DAY BUT THE ECONOMY CAN ABSORB MORE IMMIGRANTS.

THEY WILL BE WORKING IN SECTORS WHERE AMERICANS REALLY AREN'T WORKING IN RIGHT NOW AND MAYBE THAT WILL RELIEVE SOME OF THE PRICE PRESSURES WE SEE SOME SELECT AREAS OF THE ECONOMY.

AND THOSE WHO WANT TO REPEAL TITLE 42 WOULD START APPEALING TO PEOPLE'S POCKETBOOKS, THEY MIGHT HAVE MORE THRAX.

>> CAN ABSORB MORE IMMIGRANTS BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE LEGAL.

THEY HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO APPLY FOR ASYLUM.

>> IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT TITLE 42 THAT STOPPED THE FLOW.

IT WAS TRUMP AND LONG BEFORE THAT WAS DISALLOWING THOSE WHO HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT UNDER OUR LAWS TO ASK FOR ASYLUM.

HE CLOSED THAT DOWN.

SO THE BACKLOG IS A LOT FROM THAT.

I AGREE WITH YOU COMPLETELY ABOUT THE NEED FOR IMMIGRANTS AND I WOULD MAKE TWO OTHER POINTS THAT OUR BIRTH RATE IS FALLING AND OUR POPULATION IS AGING.

YET ANOTHER REASON THAT WE NEED YOUNG WORKING AGE IMMIGRANTS TO, YOU KNOW, PROP UP THE SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM, AMONG OTHER THINGS.

>> AND I THINK I LOVE THE ARGUMENT OF PRO-IMMIGRATION.

WE NEED MORE IMMIGRANTS IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE ARE AN IMMIGRANT COUNTRY AND HAVING IMMIGRANTS HELPS OUR ECONOMY.

IT'S WHO WE ARE AS A COUNTRY.

I LOVE IT.

THE PROBLEM IS WHETHER IT'S THE REPUBLICANS NATIVIST ARGUMENTS SAYING THAT WE DON'T WANT ANY IMMIGRANTS AT ALL AND CONGRESS ISN'T PASSING LAWS TO ALLOW THAT IN.

HOW DO WE PROCESS THAT MANY AT THE BORDER.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM AND THERE IS NO WAY THAT WE CAN PROCESS THAT MANY PEOPLE.

THEY'RE NOT PROCESSING THEM NOW.

WE WEREN'T UNDER TRUMP OROBAM ABEFORE THAT.

I DON'T KNOW HOW WE ARE GOING TO DO THAT.

THE COMPLICATED ISSUE OF THIS NATURE OF THIS ISSUE IS OVERWHELMING BUT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE IMMIGRATION REFORM AND HAVE MORE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

TALK ABOUT MAKING AMERICA GREAT, IMMIGRANTS WILL BE DOING THAT.

>> THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION CLAIMS TO BE SENDING MORE FOLKS FROM IMMIGRATION SERVICES TO THE BORDER TO PROCESS THIS AND HAVE PRESCREENING BEFORE YOU GET TO THE COURT-- >> THAT'S NOT IMPRESSING MARK KELLEY IN ARIZONA OR.

>> I UNDERSTAND THAT.

>> OR NEVADA.

SO IT'S GOING TO BE A HUGE NUMBER.

MAYBE IT'S NOT 18,000.

SOME ESTIMATES SAY THAT WILL DECLINE OVER TIME AND POSSIBLY FAIRLY QUICKLY BUT THERE IS A BACKLOG AT THE BORDER.

HAS TO HAVE A BIG IMPACT.

>> THE LOGISTICS ARE A LEGITIMATE ISSUE.

I DON'T THOUGH HOW TO SOLVE THAT.

I THINK IT'S INTERESTING THAT IT IS NOT JUST A REPUBLICAN ISSUE RIGHT NOW.

"THE NEW YORK TIMES" HAD AN ARTICLE THAT, I THINK THIS LAST WEEK TALKING ABOUT A LOT OF IN FIGHTING AMONG DEMOCRATS.

>> BECAUSE THEY THINK IT WILL HURT THEIR REELECTION CHANCES.

>> IT'S UNION AND IT HAS BEEN AN ISSUE-- ANTI-IMMIGRANTS HAVE BEEN AN ISSUE, TOO.

>> AND I THINK THEY'RE STARTING TO REALIZE THAT THE MEDIAN VOTER IS NOT BITING ON THE SOCIAL JUSTICE ARGUMENT WHEREAS I THINK THE ECONOMIC ONE MIGHT WORK BETTER.

I DO KIND OF DISAGREE WITH YOUR POSITION ON WHETHER WE HAVE A LEGAL OBLIGATION TO, FOR THE ASYLUM SEEKERS AND SO FORTH AND THE REASONS FOR THAT ARE TWO FOLD.

ONE IS THAT OUR LAWS ON ASYLUM SEEKERS AND REFUGEES, THEY'RE WRITTEN IN A POST-WORLD WAR II COLD WAR ERA AND THEY'RE VERY SPECIFIC ABOUT READING HERE, PEOPLE WHO ARE PERSECUTED ON ACCOUNT OF RACE, RELIGION, NATIONALITY, MEMBERSHIP OF A PARTICULAR SOCIAL GROUP OR POLITICAL OPINION, THAT LARGELY MEANS CUBA, VENEZUELA, UKRAINE.

IT DOESN'T MEAN HAITI AND NORTHERN TRIANGLE OF HONDURAS, EL SALVADOR AND-- >> SO YOU ARE SUGGESTING THEY MAY BE COMING FOR ECONOMIC REASONS, NOT.

>> AND PARTICULARLY IF YOU LOOK AT THE INTERNATIONAL UNDERSTANDING OF THE RIGHT OF FIST SETTLEMENT.

WHERE AS SOON AS YOU REACH A SAFE HAVEN THAT DOESN'T ENTITLE YOU TO MIGRATE FURTHER.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE ACTIONS RIGHT NOW WE ARE SEEING FROM TEXAS GOVERNOR GREG ABBOTT AT THE BORDER, WELL, A COUPLE OF THINGS.

SEASONING MIGRANTS ON A BUS TO WASHINGTON BUT ALSO CAUSING INSPECTIONS OF TRUCKS COMING.

YOU MENTIONED INFLATION AND VEGETABLES AT THE TOP.

THAT'S A REAL TWIST ON THIS STORY.

>> THAT'S TERRIBLE.

AND NOT ONLY IS HE DOING THAT, THERE IS OPERATION LONE STAR AND THAT HAS TAKEN THE STATE NATIONAL GUARD, PUT THEM ON THE BORDER AND THEY HAVE BEEN HUNGRY, THE SOLDIERS HAVE BEEN HUNGRY.

IT'S BEEN A DISASTER.

SO ALL THESE THINGS THAT THEY'RE DOING, NONE OF THEM HAVE ANY EFFECT AT ALL.

IN FACT, THE WORST-- THEY'RE INEFFECTIVE AND EVEN WORSE, THEY'RE INCOMPETENT AND I THINK THAT THE TEXAS GOVERNOR CONTINUES TO DO THIS.

IT HAS HURT AT THE BORDER WITH TRUCKS.

OPERATION LONE STAR HAS DONE THAT AND BUSING, NONE OF THEM ARE WORKING AT ALL.

>> ISN'T THE NATIONAL GUARD, TEXAS NATIONAL GUARD SUING ABBOTT, I THINK?

>> MANY OF THEM.

>> FOR THE MISTREATMENT?

>> TERRIBLE SITUATION.

>> WE WILL BE COMING BACK TO THAT IF WE HAVE A LAWSUIT GOING ON.

THE WAR IN UKRAINE HAS HAD THE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE OF PUSHING SWEDEN AND ESPECIALLY FINLAND CLOSER TO NATO.

NOT EXACTLY WHAT PUTIN HAD IN MIND.

PUTIN HAS WARNED AGAINST A NORTHERN EXPANSION OF NATO CITING SERIOUS MILL POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES AND HE HAS THREATENED TO MOVE NUCLEAR FORCES CLOSER TO HIS BORDER.

SO TY, SHOULD NATO OFFER MEMBERSHIP TO FINLAND AND SWEDEN AND DO YOU THINK THE U.S. SENATE WOULD GO ALONG?

>> TOMORROW WE SHOULD OFFER TO FINLAND AND SWEDEN.

THEY ARE ALREADY-- I SERVED WITH SOLDIERS IN KOSOVO AND THE SWEDES AND THE FINS WERE THERE.

THEY HAVE INTEROPERABILITY, THEY'RE READY TO JOIN.

JUST ANOTHER SIGN OF PUTIN'S STRATEGIC MALFEASANCE THAT THE ACTIONS HE HAS DONE HAS CREATED THIS AND WHAT WE WILL HAVE IS REALLY EVERY MEMBER OF THE E.U.

EXCEPT AUSTRIA, IRELAND, MALTA AND CYPRESS WILL NOW BE MEMBERS OF NATO.

SO THE NATO WILL BE OVER 500 MILLION-- 500 MILLION IN EUROPE PLUS ANOTHER 400 MILLION IN NORTH AMERICA.

SO IT'S GREAT AND I THINK THE SENATE WILL APPROVE THIS WITHOUT A PROBLEM.

>> DO YOU REALLY BECAUSE THERE IS A KIND OF ANTI-NATO REPUBLICAN COALITION IT SEEMS LIKE.

>> I THINK THERE IS SOME ANTI-NATO AND CERTAINLY TRUMP WAS ANTI-NATO.

I DON'T THINK HE REALLY UNDERSTOOD IT.

BUT FORWARD COLLECTIVE ALLIES IS THE WAY THAT WE HAVE DONE POSTWAR STRATEGY FOR OUR ENTIRE -- SINCE WORLD WAR II AND IT'S WORKED.

SO I WOULD HOPE THAT THE SENATE, IN PARTICULAR, WOULD NOT DO THIS ANTI-NATO FERVOR.

>> ON A PURELY POLITICAL LEVEL, THERE ARE A LOT OF REPUBLICANS WHO ARE RUNNING FOR REELECTION WHO WANT TO MAKE THEMSELVES LOOK BETTER IN THE EYES OF THE REPUBLICAN CONSTITUENCY, WHO HAVE, THEREFORE, A LOT OF PRESSURE TO FOLLOW TRUMP'S LEAD AND TO TAKE THIS PRO-PUTIN ANTI-NATO POSITION.

>> HOW CAN YOU BE PRO-PUTIN?

I AGREE WITH YOU.

BUT HOW CAN YOU BE PRO-PUTIN?

IT BOGGLES THE MIND.

>> 85% OF AMERICANS VIEW RUSSIA IN A NEGATIVE LIGHT.

>> THE CONCERNS ABOUT G.O.P.

ANTI-NATO SENTIMENT IS SO OVERBLOWN.

THERE IS A RESOLUTION RECENTLY, YEAH, THERE WERE 66 REPUBLICANS WHO DIDN'T SUPPORT NATO OR WHATEVER IT WAS.

I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT OF OUR FOUR REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL LEADERS RIGHT NOW, KATKO, REED, STEFANIK AND TENNEY, NONE OF THEM WERE AGAINST NATO.

SO DON'T BE MAD AT YOUR LOCAL REPUBLICANS ON THIS ISSUE.

WHERE I THINK REPUBLICANS GET REASONABLY UPSET IS WITH THE FREE RIDERSHIP PROBLEM THAT EUROPE IS RELYING TOO MUCH ON THE U.S. FOR THEIR OWN DEFENSE.

AND TO GIVE YOU A SENSE OF THAT.

BACK IN 2006, NATO MEMBERS AGREED EVERY COUNTRY WOULD SPEND 2% OF THEIR G.D.P.

ON NATIONAL DEFENSE.

10 YEARS LATER, ONLY FIVE COUNTRIES WERE.

RIGHT NOW IT'S 10 AND WE HAVE SEEN GERMANY UNCREASING ITS SPENDING QUITE A BIT.

ALSO CURRENTLY, ACT% OF NATO EATS DEFENSE BUDGET IS COMING FROM NON-E.U.

COUNTRIES.

SO FINLAND AND SWEDEN, THEY AREN'T PART OF THIS NATO AND ATTACK ON ONE IS AN ATTACK ON ALL POLICY BUT AS MEMBERS OF THE E.U., THEY KIND OF ARE BECAUSE E.U.

HAS ITS OWN THING.

AND SO IF THEY WERE ATTACKED, THE E.U.

WOULD HAVE TO RESPOND AND IF THE E.U.

IS RESPONDING THEN WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO RESPOND AND SO THEY ARE FREE RIDING RIGHT NOW.

LET THEM IN.

THAT FREE RIDERSHIP PROBLEM... >> I DON'T THINK THEY'RE FREE RIDING-- THEY WEREN'T FREE RIDING IN KOSOVO.

THEY WEREN'T FREE RIDING IN THE BALKAN EFFORTS THAT WE SERVED ALONG TIME THEM.

I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE BEEN FREE RIDING.

SWEDEN HAS BEEN NEUTRAL FOR CENTURIES.

THIS IS A HUGE CHANGE THAT SWEDEN WOULD DO THAT.

FIN LAND AND SWEDEN, THEIR MILITARIES ARE CLOSELY ALIGNED AND YOU SAW THAT BOTH PRIME MINISTER WERE TALKING TOGETHER.

THE FIN FINNISH MAINTAIN HAS BEEN WORKING ON THIS FOR A DECADE OR MORE TO TRY TO BRING IT CLOSER TO THE WEST AND BRING IT CLOSER TO NATO.

THIS IS GOING TO ADD 830 MILES TO THE STRATEGIC-- TO WHAT PUTIN WILL HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WHEN HE IS LOOKING AT THE NATO BORDER.

SO IT'S GOING TO HURT PUTIN.

IT'S GOING TO HELP THE UNITED STATES AND FORWARD COLLECTIVE DEFENSE WHICH IS THE BEST WAY FOR TO US KEEP THE PEACE.

DETERRENTS WORK.

>> IF THE EASTERN EXPANSION OF NATO PROVOKED VLADAMIR PUTIN, WOULD NOT THE NORTHERN EXPANSION PROVOKING HIM EVEN MORE?

>> WELL, IT'S A DIFFERENT KIND OF EXPANSION BECAUSE HE BELIEVES THAT THE EASTERN EXPANSION WAS EXPANDING INTO AREAS THAT WERE REALLY RUSSIAN, OR REALLY SOVIET UNION, YOU KNOW.

>> HE MIGHT THINK FINLAND IS.

>> MAYBE FINLAND BUT NOT SWEDEN.

BUT HE IS GOING TO BE PROVOKED IN ANY CASE.

>> PROVOKED MORE.

PROVOKINGED TO DO WHAT?

WE ASSIGNED, WITH WE SIGNED UP, WE SAID WE WOULDN'T PUT PERMANENT FORCES IN THOSE NEW COUNTRIES.

WE SHOULD LOOK AT THAT AND THINK ABOUT PUTTING PERMANENT FORCES, STATIONED BASES.

RIGHT NOW THERE IS A ROTATION OF AN ARMORED BRIGADE INTO POLAND THAT WE PUT, EACH ONE, FRANCE, GERMANY AND BRITAIN PUT ONE INTO THE BALTIC STATES.

I THINK WE ARE GOING TO PUT PERMANENT.

>> RIGHT NOW THOSE ARE MORE TRIP WIRED DETERRENT SORT OF FORCES.

YOU ARE SUGGESTING MORE OF A DEFENSE POSTURE?

>> AN ARMORED BRIGADE IS MORE THAN A TRIP WIRE.

THAT'S A SERIOUS FORCE THAT WE HAVE THERE BUT WE TOOK SO MUCH OUT OF U.S. ARMY EUROPE AND THE MILITARY FORCES THERE, I THINK THINKING ABOUT PUTTING PERMANENTLY STATIONED FORCES WITH, THAT ARE THERE ALL THE TIME, WOULD BE NOT JUST BETTER DETERRENT FORCE, BUT ALSO BE BETTER FOR OUR MILITARY, WHICH IS OVERWROUGHT BECAUSE IT'S HAVING TO MOVE IN AND OUT OF THOSE COUNTRIES SO OFTEN.

>> SO THIS PERHAPS WOULD BE JUST YET ANOTHER UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE OF.

>> STRATEGIC MALFEASANCE BY PUTIN.

HE HAS GOTTEN EXACTLY WHAT HE DIDN'T WANT.

>> ON A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT FRONTS.

>> ON EVERY FRONT.

>> WE IN THE WEST LIVE IN LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES YET INCREASINGLY WE SEEM TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ILL-LIBERALISM-FROM BOTH THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

MIKE PENCE SPOKE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA THIS WEEK, DESPITE AN ATTEMPT BY SOME STUDENTS TO KEEP HIM AWAY BECAUSE OF HIS VIEWS.

AROUND THE COUNTRY, A NUMBER OF REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS ARE TRYING TO BAN IDEAS FROM BEING TAUGHT IN THEIR OWN ANTI-SPEECH CAMPAIGN.

OVERSEAS, THE ILLIBERAL VIKTOR ORBAN HANDILY WON REELECTION THIS WEEK IN HUNGARY, AND MARIE LEPEN MADE IT TO THE RUNOFF IN FRANCE.

WHAT'S GONE WRONG WITH CAPITAL L LIBERALISM?

WHY IS IT SO DEEPLY CHALLENGED TODAY?

WE.

>> YES, I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN EXPLAIN IT BUT I THINK I CAN DESCRIBE IT WELL TALKING ABOUT LIBERAL VALUES IN THE UNITED STATES AS BEING WE SHOULD BE NOT AFRAID TO FOLLOW THE TRUTH WHEREVER IT MAY TAKE US; NOR TO TOLERATE ANY ERROR, SO NOT BE AFRAID TO TOLERATE ANY ERROR AS LONG AS REASONS FREE TO COMBAT IT.

AND I THINK THAT'S A GOOD WAY OF PUTTING THINGS; THAT IS A CRITICISM, AMONG OTHERS, OF THE FOLKS AT UVA WHO DIDN'T WANT MIKE PENCE TO SPEAK.

WHAT THEY NEED IS TO BE CONFIDENT THAT THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO, YOU KNOW, TALK BACK TO MIKE PENCE, TO, IF THEY BELIEVE HE IS IN ERROR, THEN THEY SHOULD REASONABLY-- REASON WITH HIM OR ARGUE WITH HIM.

AND BY SAYING HE CAN'T BE HERE, HE CAN'T COME, YOU ARE GETTING RID OF LIBERAL VALUE GLSES I THINK THEY'RE SUGGESTING THAT SPEECH EQUATES TO VIOLENCE.

>> THEY DID SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT THESE THINGS, THESE HATEFUL THINGS HE SAID ENDANGER PEOPLE'S LIVES.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S, I THINK, AN EXAGGERATION.

THEY'RE EQUATING SPEECH TO VIOLENCE.

>> TY, DO WE HAVE A PROBLEM?

>> I THINK WE HAVE A COUPLE PROBLEMS.

I THINK WE CERTAINLY, FOR THOSE OF US IN THE IVORY TOWER, WE HAVE TO BE MORE COMFORTABLE WITH PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH US.

I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.

THAT'S THE WAY WE DO IT.

I HAD A PROBLEM WITH THAT AT WEST POINT WITH PEOPLE SAYING I COULDN'T SAY THE CIVIL WAR WAS ABOUT SLAVERY IN A PUBLIC WAY.

I UNDERSTAND THAT ILLIBERALISM IS THERE IN MANY DIFFERENT FORMS AND I THINK THOSE IN HIGHER ED HAD A RESPONSIBILITY TO DO THAT.

I'M ALSO CONCERNED WHEN WE LOOK AT VICTOR ORBAN AND THE HUNGARIAN THAT WE SHOULD EMULATE.

THAT'S THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE SHOULD EMULATE.

AND WHEN THERE ARE POLITICIANS OR NEWS PEOPLE WHO LOOK AT ORBAN AND SAY THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO BE LIKE, THAT'S THE ANTITHESIS.

>> AND NEWS PEOPLE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TUCKER CARLSON AND FOX AND HE HAS TAKEN HIS PROGRAM TO BUDAPEST I THINK A COUPLE OF TIMES NOW.

>> A LOT OF THIS DISCUSSION WE ARE HAVING IS ABOUT POLITICAL LIBERALISM.

I THINK I SHOULD SAY A WORD ABOUT ECONOMIC LIBERALISM AS WELL.

YOU KNOW, LOOK, ANY TIME I TEACH INTRODUCTION TO ECONOMICS, I BEGIN THE SEMESTER BY TRYING TO MAKE THE CASE THAT ECONOMICS IS A FUNDAMENTALLY MORAL DISCIPLINE, THAT AT ITS HEART, IT'S ABOUT TRYING TO MAXIMIZE SOCIAL WELFARE USING THE FEWEST RESOURCES, MINIMUM COST AND THAT UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS, THAT MEANS FREE MARKETS ARE WONDERFUL AND CAPITALISM HAS DONE MORE TO ALLEVIATE WORLD POVERTY THAN ANY OTHER INSTITUTION ON EARTH BUT THAT KIND OF RHETORICS LACKS SOME NUANCE, AND SO FOR THAT LET'S TURN TO THE GRAPHS AGAIN.

YOU KNOW, WASHINGTON POST HAD THIS GRAPH A WHILE AGO WHERE IT TAKES A LOOK AT THE CUMULATIVE G.D.P.

GROWTH FOR THE FIRST 15 YEARS OF DIFFERENT GENERATIONS WORKING LIVES.

WHAT I REALLY WANT TO POINT OUT IS THE BOTTOM LINE IS MILLENNIALS AND UNDERSCORES HOW UNLUCKY THAT GENERATION HAS BEEN.

YOU KNOW, FINANCIAL CRISIS, COVID, TERRIBLE 1-2 PUNCH AND MOREOVER, EVEN THOUGH G.D.P.

GREW BY 14%, MEDIAN WAGES ONLY GREW BY 2% DURING THAT PERIOD SO THEY HAVE SEEN STAGNANT WAGES, RISING INEQUALITY.

I AS A YOUNG GENX PERSON WHO REMEMBER PARTS OF THE COLD WAR THINK THAT YES, LIBERALISM, FREE MARKETS, EVERYTHING LIKE THAT IS WONDERFUL.

AND IT'S TRUE.

I CAN UNDERSTAND THE SCEPTICISM THAT MILLENNIALS MIGHT HAVE.

I MEAN THEY'RE WRONG BUT I UNDERSTAND IT.

>> NOT ONLY SCEPTICISM ABOUT THE OUTCOME FOR THEM OR THAT THEY FEEL THAT THEIR OUTCOMES ARE NOT AS GOOD AS MINE, FOR EXAMPLE, AS A BABY BOOMER.

BUT HOW THAT CAME TO BE AND WHOSE PROFITING FROM IT IS ALSO TO THEIR DISADVANTAGE.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE-- I'M SURE YOU KNOW THIS-- THAT THE RATIO OF THE AVERAGE PERSON'S PAY TO THE OWNER'S PAY OF A COMPANY.

IN THE 50s IT WAS LIKE 50 TIMES, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

THE OWNER OF THE COMPANY OR THE PRESIDENT OF THE COMPANY MADE 50 TIMES AS MUCH AS AN AVERAGE PERSON ON THE ASSEMBLY LINE.

NOW THAT IS 500 TIMES.

THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE WEALTH LEVELS IN ALL WAYS, HOUSING AND INCOME AND SO ON, OF WORKERS VERSUS OWNERS, IS OUTRAGEOUS.

>> SO ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT YOU USE THE TERM UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS, TALKING ABOUT ECONOMIC FREEDOM IN THE MARKETS UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS.

SO THE CRITICISM OF LIBERALISM IN THE LEFT IS THAT THERE IS TOO MUCH ECONOMIC FREEDOM SUCH THAT IT BECOMES EXPLOITATION?

IS THAT THE NEO-LIBERALISM ARGUMENT?

>> YEAH, AND I THINK HERE IS AN AREA WHERE LEFT AND RIGHT CAN KIND OF AGREE ON, RIGHT?

CONCENTRATION OF INDUSTRIAL POWER IN FEW FIRMS, MONOPOLY POWER.

THAT IS A MARKET POWER THAT IS WELFARE REDUCING, RIGHT?

SO I THINK BOTH LEFT OF CENTER AND RIGHT OF CENTER ECONOMISTS HAVE THIS AGREEMENT THAT YOU NEED TO BREAK UP OR REGULATE MONOPOLIES OR WHAT HAVE YOU.

AND WE HAVE SEEN RISING MARKET CONCENTRATION, I THINK, TO ILL-EFFECT FOR AMERICAN WORKERS.

>> AND OUR HISTORY, WHEN WE GET TO THOSE PLACES WHERE IT'S THE GILDED AGE, PROGRESSIVE ERA MADE IT A MORE EQUAL SOCIETY.

DURING THE GREAT DEPRESSION WE DID THE SAME THING SO AND DURING THE GREAT SOCIETY, IT ALSO HAPPENED AGAIN.

THERE HAVE BEEN PERIODS WHERE AMERICA BECOMES TOO UNEQUAL, THAT WE HAVE A PROCESS OF DEALING WITH THAT.

IT'S ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY.

THE QUESTION IS CAN WE DO THAT NOW?

>> AND THAT'S WHERE I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE KIND OF JOKED EARLIER, A FEW WEEKS AGO ABOUT WHETHER I'M AGAINST WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION.

I'M NOT AGAINST WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION AT ALL BUT I'M WORRIED THAT SOME OF THE PROGRESSIVE POLICIES TRYING TO ACHIEVE THAT WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION IS ILLEGAL, CUMBERSOME TO OPERATE, BAD POLL.

>> I THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE CAN HAVE POLITICAL ARGUMENTS ABOUT AND SHOULD.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> AND I THINK WE'VE JUST BARELY BEGUN TO PLUMB THIS ISSUE.

IT DOES FEEL A LITTLE BIT LIKE I'M SITTING IN PROFESSOR SPARBER'S CLASS, AND I LIKE THAT.

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THIS PROGRAM, I OFTEN FEEL LIKE I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE CLASSES WITH ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES HERE.

WE NEED TO TURN TO THE AS AND FS UNDERSTAND START WITH THE F AND KRISTI WHAT IS YOUR F THIS WEEK?

>> SPEAKING OF CONCENTRATED WEALTH, AN F TO ELON MUSK CHARGED WITH VIOLATING SECURITIES LAW ONCE YOU PURCHASE MORE THAN 5% OF A COMPANY'S STOCK YOU HAVE TO PUBLICLY DISCLOSE THAT.

HE DELAYED THE PUBLISHING OF TWITTER WITH 9% STAKE.

VIOLATING SEC RULES PREVIOUSLY AND IS AN OBNOXIOUS EXAMPLE OF HOW THE SUPER RICH THINK THEY DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW RULES THAT ORDINARY PEOPLE DO.

>> TY, YOUR F?

>> MINE IS THE RUSSIAN NAVY WHO NOW HAS THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION SHIP MOSCOW ON THE BOTTOM OF THE BLACK SEA, THEY JOIN THE RUSSIAN ARMY AND THE RUSSIAN AIR FORCE WITH A TRIFECTA OF INCOMPETENCE.

SOMETIMES A MILITARY, YOU GET-- THE SOCIETY GETS THE MILITARY IT DESERVES.

THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION'S MILITARY REPRESENTS THEIR SOCIETY PRETTY WELL.

AN F TO THE RUSSIAN NAVY.

>> CHAD.

>> SO MY F GOES TO NEWS REPORTER BY FORTUNE THAT 92% OF EXECUTIVES AGREE THAT EMPLOYEES WHO ARE FREQUENTLY MUTED OR HAVE THEIR CAMERA TURNED OFF DURING VIDEO CALLS DON'T HAVE A LONG-TERM FUTURE WITH THE COMPANY BECAUSE EXECUTIVES PERCEIVE THIS BEHAVIOR AS A LACK OF ENGAGEMENT.

YOU KNOW WHAT SIGNALS A LACK OF ENGAGEMENT, WORK FROM HOME.

I UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE WANT REMOTE HOME BUT PEOPLE DOING IT REALLY WANT TO THINK OF THE LONG-TERM IMPLICATIONS OF THAT MODEL.

>> OKAY.

LET'S TURN TO THE As.

IDENTITIY CHRYST.

COMMON COUNCIL HAS APPROVED CONTINUATION OF A PROGRAM BY MAYOR WALSH IN 2020, PROGRAM SENT MENTAL HEALTH WORKERS FROM LIBERTY RESOURCES TO 911 CALLS ALONG WITH SYRACUSE POLICE.

THEY HAVE DONE CRISIS INTERVENTION, HELPED TRAIN POLICE OFFICERS.

THE DEPUTY POLICE CHIEF CONFIRMED THAT THIS PROGRAM HAD "DIVERTED CALLS THAT DID NOT NEED TO BE HANDLED BY POLICE: WE DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO GO TO THAT LEVEL OF FORCE."

>> TY, YOUR A.

>> MY A GOES TO THE NORTH ATLANTIC TREATING ORGANIZATION OR NATO.

IT HAS KEPT THE PEACE FOR LOW THESE MANY YEARS AND EVERY TIME THERE IS A NEED FOR IT, IT RISES TO THE OCCASION AND FORWARD COLLECTIVE DEFENSE HAS WORKED SINCE AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR, CONTINUING TO WORK NOW AND I'M GLAD THE UNITED STATES IS PART OF IT.

>> AND CHAD, YOUR A.

>> SO MY A GOES TO VITAL GROUP, THE WORLD'S LARGEST INDEPENDENT OIL MERCHANT FOR REPORTS IT WILL STOP TRADING RUSSIAN CRUDE OIL AND PRODUCTS BY THE END OF THE YEAR.

THE E.U.

IS ALSO CONSIDERING A SIMILAR OIL EMBARGO.

LET'S HOPE THEY GO THROUGH WITH IT.

>> THAT WOULD DEPRIVE, WE KEEP CIRCLING BACK TO NATO AND VLADAMIR PUTIN AND DEPRIVE VLADAMIR PUTIN A SIGNIFICANT SOURCE OF INCOME AND STRATEGIC MALFEASANCE IS THE TERM OF THE WEEK.

THANK YOU FOR JOIN JOINING US THIS EVENING.

FOR COMMENTS YOU CAN WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON THE SCREEN.

IF WOULD YOU LIKE TO VIEW THE SHOW AGAIN, YOU CAN DO SO ONLINE AT WCNY.ORG.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY AND FOR ALL OF US AT "IVORY TOWER," HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.

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