- (female announcer)   Production funding   for Behind the Headlines   is made possible in part by   the WKNO Production Fund,   the WKNO Endowment Fund   and by viewers like   you, thank you.

- The state legislature takes on schools, COVID and much more tonight on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes of The Daily Memphian and thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by two state senators from the Memphis area.

First up is Raumesh Akbari, Democratic State Senator representing parts of South Memphis, Downtown and Midtown.

Thank you for being here Senator.

- Pleasure.

- Also, Senator Brian Kelsey a Republican State Senator representing parts of Germantown, Cordova and East Memphis.

Thanks for being here again Senator Kelsey.

- Thanks for having me Eric.

- Along with Bill Dries, reporter with The Daily Memphian.

Let me start, I guess I'll go to you first and give you both a chance to answer this.

And I'll go to you first, Senator Kelsey you all have just started wrapping up and wrapped up a special session, focused on education that the governor called for.

We'll talk about some of the like the four main points that look like they have been passed or as we record this Thursday morning I'm not sure they've been signed but it looks like they are going forward.

I think the thing that caught most people's attention which we'll start with is the state, a proposal to really essentially force schools, such as Shelby County Schools to reopen, to go back to in-person learning.

That did not pass but it's still very much on everyone's mind.

There's a lot of discussion about it about what's gonna happen.

Where do you stand on that question of should Shelby County Schools reopen and should the legislature, I mean, you're still in session I guess, theoretically it could come back up, should the state force or push Shelby County Schools to reopen?

- Well I stand with the Governor on that question, which and I stand with President Biden on that question and I stand with the CDC on that question which is, follow the science.

And the science is clear that schools are not any sort of super spreader institutions.

And in fact, they're a very safe places to open.

Every other country in the world has opened their schools safely except for certain parts of the US and even 93 out of 95 counties here in Tennessee have done it safely.

And it's time for Shelby County Schools and Metro Nashville Schools to get on board follow the science, and let's give parents a choice.

You know, we're not saying that we wanna force every single child to come back.

If you have concerns about that, of the safety then certainly we wanna give parents that choice.

But for those parents who, and I've heard from many of them in my district and in parts of East Memphis, they got two working parents at home and at the same time they've got kids and they're supposed to be monitoring their kids on Zoom.

You know, let's give those parents a chance to get those kids back into school and learning even better.

- Those CDC guidelines that came out there've been a number of studies they've talked about schools not being spreader events.

It also said that there needs to be appropriate distancing, masking, ventilation.

Is there more that the state needs to do to provide school systems like Shelby County Schools with those, that assistance to make sure it's the ventilation is safe, make sure there's enough space, make sure there's enough masks and all that?

Is there more that the state should do Senator Kelsey?

- Well, actually the Federal government has just spent over a trillion dollars on this issue and a huge chunk of that money went to directly to Shelby County Schools.

And so that's why they have now these air ventilators and others.

And again, as I say, not every parent's gonna wanna send their child back and that's okay.

And what that will do is that will free up plenty of space for those students to practice social distancing there.

But at the end of the day, you know the charge has got to be to our school superintendent and to our School Board members that they've got to stop just taking orders from the Teacher's Union.

And they've got to start listening to parents and listening to the science.

- Okay, let me bring Senator Akbari, your take on this, should more be done and more pressure let alone requirement be put on the schools to reopen?

- Well, the short answer, absolutely not.

the Department of Education Commissioner Penny Schwinn started this whole pandemic by saying we are giving LEAs, these local school boards, local school districts, the option to do what they think is best for their community.

We're giving them the tools, the tool kits that they need to succeed.

Shelby County Schools initially tried to come in with a hybrid model and it was not something that was going to work based on the numbers that we have in Shelby County.

And I believe if we wanna talk about following the science we need a statewide mass mandate.

Our numbers are outrageous.

Over 9,000 people have died in the state of Tennessee from COVID-19 but let's let our districts have an opportunity to make this decision themselves as we've been doing.

These students are in school.

There are teachers and parents and students who are participating in this online learning process.

It's not gonna be like this always but we are in a global pandemic right now.

And now we are facing an even more one variant that can spread and can even be more deadly.

So I don't think that we should pressure at school district and certainly do not tie it to funding.

That's just almost cruel.

- Let me one more question I'll get Bill in here.

Is there a point at which that, I mean, let me ask the question this way Senator, when can the schools, from your point of view when is it safe for them to open, if not now based on CDC guidance and some of the other studies?

- I think that the CDC guidance again, talks about having more spread out classrooms and you see some of our private schools, like for instance, Hutchison they're able to spread their kids out.

They have state-of-the-art technology to help ventilate their classroom.

So they're able to be back in the classroom.

I think if our classrooms don't have those tools and our numbers are still high, then we shouldn't go back.

And certainly until more folks in the community have been vaccinated, I think that's all we're saying, Shelby County wanted to come back in January.

They've tried and they've moved it back to February.

They are following the science.

They're looking at the rate of infection in Tennessee.

And I think that they're doing the best that they can under the circumstances.

And I'm quite frankly proud of the School Board, the superintendent, the parents, the teachers and the students for how they've managed this devastating pandemic.

- Yeah, Bill Dries.

- Senator Kelsey, is there a provision in the bill that we're talking about as it currently stands that counts a hybrid model toward the minimum of I believe it's 70 days of in-person instruction?

- Well that particular bill that you're discussing ended up not passing and also to be clear that that bill came from the House, not from our side on the Senate.

And it also, just to also be clear about what it did though, it was only providing bonus funds.

No one has ever, ever in my 17 years in the legislature cut any education funding.

In fact, this year we're giving enough money to provide teachers with as much as a 4% raise.

So this was only bonus money.

And the point is, if we're giving out bonus money to help those schools that are dealing with the pandemic then should that be focused on schools that are actually meeting full-time in person?

And I think that's a reasonable ask to make.

So to answer your question, though that particular bill did not pass in the special session, when it comes back you know we'll take a look at it, but my proposal is, let's just give the Governor the authority to directly open schools and let's operate as you said, a hybrid model just to those parents who wanna come back.

If you don't wanna come back, that's fine.

But let's offer that option.

- Do you have concerns about teachers because granted the schools are predominantly children but there are also adults who teach it, who are more susceptible to the spread of this virus and to the major effects that it can have.

- That certainly is a concern.

Obviously we wanna support our teachers, but again we wanna follow the science on this.

And the CDC has said that we don't see huge numbers of teachers catching the virus in school either.

And so the problem is our school board is they come up with these plans to reopen first it was January, then it's February now who knows when it's gonna be and they're changing their plans because of the purely because of the Teachers Union.

And that's the only pressure they're listening to.

And they need to be listening to parents about when to get these children back into school.

- Senator Akbari, what do you hear from parents in your district?

- Parents in my district are terrified.

A lot of the households in my district you have a grandmother or grandfather they're taking care of they're young grandkids.

Or you have blended households.

There's not an opportunity to spread out.

If one person in the house gets COVID then probably everyone will.

So that's what I've heard.

I have not heard a great deal of pressure from the Teacher's Union.

I've heard complaints and concerns from parents who said I don't want my, and I know that it's a choice, but at the same time I just think that it's too risky.

And I will say to speak up for the teachers.

We have one of the highest levels of teachers who are retirement eligible.

Are we saying that we it's okay?

I mean, we've moved them up to 1B category for vaccinations.

Let's wait until we get these vaccines through.

And then let's, you know then we can have a different discussion.

And I just think that we're in such an unprecedented time, we have to have more collaboration and working together.

And certainly as Senator Kelsey said, I mean this was a piece of legislation from the House, but not from a member from Shelby County or Davidson County.

So I think in that sense, there needs to be more communication between the state and these district level leaders.

- Do you think there is a distinction to be made between smaller school districts and large urban school districts like Memphis and Nashville?

- Certainly, I mean, if you look at the Shelby County Schools their budget is larger than the City of Memphis.

I mean it is a massive operation and you have schools where the classroom sizes are almost to the max as you can have for state law.

So I do think there's a difference.

And I think that's why Commissioner Schwinn said, in her initial guidance from the Department of Education, do what's best for your school district.

We're not gonna mandate that you be in class and that you have a hybrid, that you stay at home.

And I think that flexibility is really more powerful than any sort of other mandate because it allows locals to do what's best for their local schools.

- All right, before I send it back to Eric, one more question about the idea that hybrid schools with a hybrid system, school systems might or might not be be exempt from that.

Should a hybrid system, which I believe all of our suburban school systems are using in which Shelby County schools has talked about.

That's really been the dominant model at least talked about here.

So would a hybrid system be acceptable to you?

- I mean, I certainly think a hybrid system is more acceptable and it does allow districts an opportunity to have a little bit of flexibility, but I still think that we should allow districts to do what's best for them and their students and their families that they serve.

- Let me go bring you back in here, Senator Kelsey and the question of learning loss and, you know I think there's been some studies but there's obviously massive concern about what this could do.

I mean, some people talk about and this not just a Memphis conversation it's a conversation about all kids dealing with whether it's hybrid or purely virtual, just the very difficult year that we have had that there's gonna be massive learning loss.

It seems now that we're on track with lots of bumps and lots of difficulties and we'll get to COVID vaccine distribution here in a minute that, the summer is a time when maybe that many people will be vaccinated.

And maybe some of that learning loss can be made up for with in-person summer school and camps.

The Legislature I believe is on the verge of passing some legislation about learning loss and summer school and summer camps.

But does it do enough given the scale?

I mean, some of these kids went home in March of last year and have not set foot back in a classroom since then.

So is the state doing enough with the summer programs that they are I think you all are about to pass?

- Well it's probably not enough.

The main thing is we just discussed this that these children need to get back into the classroom but I am very proud to as the new chairman of the Senate Education Committee to a sponsor the learning loss legislation for the Governor I'm proud that we passed that.

I think that, you know I mean this pandemic it's hurt us all in various ways and we've got a whole generation of children now, some of whom may have lost as much as a full year's worth of learning.

They've been out of school for a year.

And so we've got to do everything we can to address that.

And with the learning loss bill, what we did is we were focusing on those students who had lost the most ground and we are creating summer, basically summer school for them as well as afterschool programs after that summer school.

And there we are going to really address literacy head on but then learning loss and all these other subjects math and every other subject and try to catch up these kids from the learning loss that they've had.

Beyond that I mean, we wanna put some real accountability into the program too, and we're gonna say, look we're not just gonna continue to pass kids on through the system, but we're gonna make sure that third graders can actually read on a third grade level before we simply just push them on.

Because the prior to third grade, you learn to read but after third grade you read to learn all of your other subjects.

And so it's critical that we get that done and that's why we pass the literacy bill as well.

So I think the Governor took the right steps in moving us in the right direction to try to address some of these concerns.

- Are those summer camps, are they gonna be mandatory based on test results?

Are they voluntary?

What's the criteria and availability of them?

- It's a mixture of both.

So if students are really, really far behind then there are, they will have the mandatory summer school or they can also participate in a tutoring program that we're also creating.

So for example, if you're not reading at a third grade level, then you can agree to for your entire fourth grade year to have a tutoring program available for you to help with your literacy gains.

But then for others, it will be, they'll simply be available for those who want to take advantage of it.

And we hope that many will.

- Senator Akbari are these, the summer camp, the third grade requirement, which could hold back a lot of kids who don't meet criteria, you know learning criteria, are those appropriate?

And are they particularly, maybe let's focus first on the summer camps and summer programs and the tutoring program that Senator Kelsey just mentioned are those enough to get kids caught up?

- Well quite frankly, I think that they are a great start, right?

We have not been in this situation before.

Certainly our kids had significant learning gaps before this crisis occurred but I said last August, I believe our kids are gonna be in summer school next year to catch up.

And I got a couple of boos from folks.

So I think this is-- - All the children in your district simultaneously booed you, we heard it.

- They were like we don't like you, but I think it's a great way to attack the issue.

Shelby County Schools and other schools have already been doing these little reading camps.

And they probably don't go as far just because of a lack of resources during the summer.

So I think it's great.

I think literacy is a subject that has always been a concern since I got to the legislature.

If we don't get it right we will not have a prepared workforce.

I think it's great-- - Apologies for the delay on the Zoom here I appreciate your patience with me.

Two questions.

I'm sure someone is out there is thinking maybe we should be doing these summer camps in perpetuity.

I mean, there's tons of data that shows that's when students of all stripes, of all schools tend to fall way, way behind in the three month summer.

I mean again, there aren't a lot of kids watching I hope who's gonna boo all of us.

I sat with my own children when they were in school and it is a kind of a legacy of the agrarian society that we even closed for three months in the summer.

It's a very odd thing.

A lot of European nations don't do it.

Your Asian countries don't do it.

So should we continue those summer programs and the tutoring programs?

Second, are you supportive of the third grade reading requirement that could cause kids to be held back if they don't meet it?

- Definitely in support of having an extended summer camp, year I mean, I'm doing it repeatedly.

One again like I said, our LEAs have some sort of learning camps.

I just don't think they have the resources to have enough of them.

And yeah, this might be an unpopular opinion but again, I think that it places a tremendous burden on families to have to provide childcare for their children during the summer.

And then also you have that potential for not potential, we know that there is a significant learning loss, a brain drain over the summer.

And as far as the third grade retention, mixed feelings.

I think that that is a model that can work very well particularly if they can move forward beyond third grade maybe have a hybrid year of sorts and then moved back to the fifth grade.

But I definitely think it's something that we have to do.

We have to address it.

It just depends on implementation.

So again, I think in concept, it's a good thing because our kids like Senator like Chairman Kelsey said, if you are not reading on a grade level by the time you complete third grade we're setting you up for a host of problems and difficulties as you move forward.

- Bring Bill back in.

- Right, Senator Kelsey you have a bill regarding residency requirements for police and firefighters that would end those completely across the state.

Several weeks ago, we had Mayor Jim Strickland on the program here and asked him about that and he said that he favors that happening but he also said that the city continues to have concerns about the state coming in and saying that, that should be the case for all counties.

In fact, he said the administration has a record of routinely opposing legislation that would take those questions away from local and state governments.

Where is that bill at currently?

And what do you think the prospects are for it?

- Well I'm certainly hopeful that this bill will pass.

It will go through the state and local committee on the Senate side and it's equivalent on the House side.

And it's a bill that does have statewide support.

So my House sponsor is Representative Jerome Moon from East Tennessee.

And I've actually talked to lots of mayors through this beginning of this conversation over the last couple of months, who have told me for example, in places in middle Tennessee that have just gotten so expensive.

They said, my officers, police and fire officers they can't afford to live in my city anymore.

And so they're in support of this legislation because they recognize that they're going to have to get the best available officers from outside of their particular cities or counties.

And this legislation I'm hopeful that it will pass ultimately because I mean, let's face it here in Memphis we have, the City Council has stated that we have a 500-police officer shortage.

We had over 300 murders last year.

And I mean, just right around the corner here for me I mean, when I go to Kroger there's a a police officer now who's stationed inside of Kroger.

We desperately need to get as many officers as we can to reduce these violent crime rates.

And so we should be willing and open to take them from wherever we can find them.

- Should police officers have to live where they work?

Does that make them more familiar with the communities that they patrol and work in?

- I think we should treat them just like we treat all other Americans which is they can live where they wanna live to do their job, as long as they're doing their job effectively.

- All right, Senator Akbari where are you on this?

Should there be residency requirements for police and firefighters?

- Well, with all due respect to Chairman Kelsey I completely feel the opposite.

Think that it's been highlighted through these incidents of police brutality, it's important that police officers understand and know the community that they serve.

I think in a city like Memphis where we are touching Mississippi and Arkansas we have a lot of folks who will work in our city, but who do not pay property taxes that help support the infrastructure of our city because we are a sales tax based state and we don't have any opportunity for an income tax.

So no, I think that we, if there are cities or counties in middle Tennessee that wish to get rid of a residency requirement, that's something they should do through their democratically elected form of government and on a local level.

We've addressed this locally.

And we have said, or our City Council has said we want to have residency requirements.

And I think there was even a referendum I believe or it was might've been canceled, but I don't think that this is something that needs statewide action.

And I think that we have plenty of folks in Memphis and Shelby County who can be qualified or educated in and can step into these jobs and not have to have someone from Mississippi or Arkansas.

- Right before I go back to Eric to the point about getting the number of police officers that the city needs to combat crime.

Do you think we can get those numbers which are proven hard to attain, do you think we can get those numbers by having a residency requirement?

And can we get those numbers ramped up rapidly enough if you believe we need more police officers?

- Well, I think the science is a bit split on whether or not more officers actually reduces crime.

I am serving on the Mayor's task force on 21st Century Policing.

And we've looked at a lot of different initiatives including community interaction, kind of addressing some of the underlying issues that could reduce crime as opposed to just having a blanket number of officers on the street.

So I don't know that that's the answer and I certainly don't think lifting something that's been so, that's been already handled on a local level as a residency requirement is the answer.

- Senator Kelsey, obviously with just a few minutes left and we could do a whole show on COVID vaccine distribution.

We've done essentially a number of whole shows on vaccine distribution.

And I say this wearily 'cause we're recording Thursday morning and things change it seems sort of every day in terms of how this is going.

A couple of maybe quick questions for you.

is Shelby County getting its fair share of vaccine doses from the state?

- Well, the Governor has stated that he sent more than a hundred thousand vaccines to Shelby County.

So I think that we are getting our fair share from the state.

The question is, is the state getting them from the Biden administration?

And as of right now, we're not getting enough.

The Federal Government's just got to do a much better job of pushing these vaccines out to the states so that we can get them down to the local level.

- I mean there was obviously a disaster this week at the, you know, I mean a frustrating disaster at the Shelby County Health Department at the Fairgrounds distributing, people got turned away.

There was a lot of anger and anxiety and the Health Department Director had to apologize for what happened.

Should the state be stepping in, National Guard in any form or fashion be stepping in in Shelby County or elsewhere in Tennessee to help give and distribute vaccine in a more hands-on way?

- Well, The Governor Lee has shown in the past that he is willing to exercise the National Guard's help in these types of matters.

I think with the exception of an obviously huge debacle that you mentioned this week the Shelby County Health Department I think should be able to handle the issue and they've even come up with some good ideas.

I mean, I've been advocating that we needed a we needed a standby list and Shelby County has already done that on their own.

That's one of the things I've been advocating with The Governor, because sometimes you have, you know you'll have a box of 25 or a hundred doses and they go bad so you've got to get them out immediately the extra ones that you've got.

And you know, we've just we've got to have a plan too and so I've been advocating with the Governor we've got to get down to those who are 70 and above not just 75 and above, but we can't do that.

The Governor's office has told me until they get more vaccines from Washington.

- Same questions for you Senator Akbari are we getting our fair share?

And should the state be doing more to get a vaccine in people's arms?

- I spoke with Dr. Piercey cause that was a concern.

- That's he State Health Commissioner, is that correct?

- Yes, Memphis and Shelby County represents 14% of the population in Tennessee and we've received 14.1% of the vaccine.

I think there has been some bumps as far as distribution.

Unfortunately, Dr. Piercey shared with me that the Trump administration just a complete failure in being able to push down vaccines.

They were supposed to get about 90,000 every week they ended up getting about 80,000.

There was supposed to be a massive amount of reserves sent down.

Those didn't actually exist.

Now, the good thing is I had a briefing from the Biden administration in DC and they have a plan to push down vaccines I think in a record number.

So that's important.

The key is will we have the infrastructure to accept it?

And from my conversations with Dr. Piercey, we're going to be utilizing retail pharmacies which will be much more convenient and they're spread out all throughout the city.

So the people who need these vaccines and want them can get them as soon as possible.

So it's a new day, I'm excited.

The Biden administration is planning on pushing 150 million vaccines in the first 100 days.

- All right, that is all the time.

Again, many more questions and we can talk again a whole show on that.

Thank you both for being here and thank you for joining us.

Remember, you can get the full episodes of the show on WKNO.org or you can download the full podcast of the site from The Daily Memphian site, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks and we'll see you next week.

[intense orchestral music] [acoustic guitar chords]