Funding for COLORES was provided in part by: New Mexico PBS Great Southwestern Arts & Education Endowment Fund, and the Nellita E. Walker Fund for KNME-TV at the Albuquerque Community Foundation New Mexico Arts, a division of the Department of Cultural Affairs, and by the National Endowment for the Arts and Viewers Like You ENHANCING PBS'S THE AMERICAN REVOLUTIONS SERIES HISTORIAN TOM CHAVEZ REVEALS HOW SPAIN'S SUPPORT WAS INTEGRAL TO THE SUCCESS OF AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE.

>>Chavez: You know, the wonderful history of the birth of this nation is made even more wonderful.

If you know the full story.

IT'S ALL AHEAD ON COLORES!

>>Faith: So, Tom, with PBS rolling out the new American Revolution Series by Ken Burns, it's so great to have you here to talk about Spain's role in the American Revolution.

So thank you for being here.

>>Chavez: Thank you for having me.

It's a pleasure.

>>Faith: What first drew you to uncovering Spain's role in the Revolution?

>>Chavez: What led me to that?

>>Faith: Yeah.

>>Chavez: It was an accident.

I blamed the Spanish government for that.

Because during our country's Bicentennial, they sent -- recreated regimental -- Spanish Regimental flags of -- of Spanish regiments that fought British soldiers in our Revolution, and they sent three flags, three regiments to each of the states that were part of the Spanish Empire at the time of the Revolution.

So that would be from Florida all the way across to California and the Southern states and including the Southwestern states of what are now New Mexico, Arizona, California.

And I found -- I was an intern from the University of New Mexico -- Go Lobos!

And at the State History Museum up in Santa Fe the director told me to go “un-catalong” room and start cataloging things.

And I found this box with the three flags and a mimeograph.

There's something no one knows anymore.

Mimeograph -- thing that in Spanish, that said, these are Spanish regiments that fought in the American Revolution against the British.

Well, I was, you know, a new graduate student -- about to be a newly hatched graduate student.

I hadn't heard anything about that.

So I wrote the embassy and said, “What is this about?” They explained to me that Spanish regiments had fought against British soldiers during our War of Independence.

And that's what started me.

>>Faith: Why did they send those flags?

>>Chavez: Because there's -- this country has an inherent bias against, people with surnames, Spanish surnames, right?

I would guess the majority of people in this country don't know the difference between a Spaniard and a Mexican.

You know, I tell them, we'll give one or the other chile and you'll find out, [Both Laugh] you know?

[Both Laugh] [Both Laugh] So there's that.

And so we've inherited the biases of England to a great extent.

Which is Protestant England, and then there's Catholic Spain, and it goes back to the Reformation in the Counter-Reformation in England, took up the lead of reforming the Catholic Church, which the church refused to do.

So Protestantism, grew out of that, whereas, Spain at the same time took up the the cudgels to lead the Counter-Reformation to protect the church.

And so then you get this whole Catholic, Protestant kind of rivalry going on -- idea of superiority and so forth and the two leading countries that came to America, France is kind of in between that.

But there's England with the -- you know, brought the Reformation idea and Spain that brought the Counter-Reformation idea at the same time, basically, you know, England to North America and where the colonies are now, where we are today, you know, in the East coast and to Spain, to Central America and North and South.

And so as a result of that, New Mexico was part of the Spanish Empire longer, and it's been part of the United States to this day.

And so Spain -- Spain took a lot of the bad publicity as a result of this -- centuries long biases and when United States wanted to celebrate its Bicentennial, 50 years ago, because we're now coming up to the 250th, Spain decided to do something about it.

And so they sent these flags to all the states that were part of the Spanish Empire, during that time, and we were one of them.

And, that seed -- thanks to the government planting that seed, you know, a young intern out of the University of New Mexico found it and, and wrote and then all of a sudden, got a Fulbright Fellowship to go to Spain and do research, found a treasure trove of documents about our Revolution in the Spanish archives and Spain's role in it.

And that's all it all started and grew into the the beginning trees that someday will be a forest.

>>Faith: How did Spain first become involved in the American Revolution?

>>Chavez: Well, Spain lost the previous war.

We call it the French and Indian War, in this country.

It was the Seven Years War in Europe, and it was France and Spain.

Spain got into it late, but it started with France and England fighting each other.

And then Spain joined England and of course, joined France, at the end of it, and England won France to preserve its holdings in America, gave Louisiana to Spain essentially before the end of the war.

So Spain couldn't lose it.

But Spain lost what was then East and West Florida, which means Florida, all where along the Gulf Coast there.

And I have to say, the Gulf Coast of Mexico.

So everybody understands what I'm talking about.

You know, the Gulf of Mexico and, so, England was a poor winner.

And so then France and Spain don't like, you know, England.

It's kind of like if you just got beat up and and the person is -- you're down on the ground, you give up and the person keeps kicking you.

You're not going to like that person.

[Faith Laughs] And, England kind of took that attitude, historically.

And so when the colonies rebelled, Spain and France both say, “well, this is great, good.” And so first Spain and then France joined Spain, started sending covert aid to our Founding Fathers, aid that, you know, was kept secret.

They didn't want to get into a war quite yet because they just lost the war.

France had a younger king, and he was kind of anxious to get off the ground and show them.

Eventually, France came up with an idea of surprising the British, and it failed.

And now they're at war with England, and they know they can't win.

And, they need Spain, and Spain was more mature about it.

They just kept sending aid and saying, “let's buy time.” We got to separate Portugal from England because Portugal was an ally.

And they did, by sending a large fleet to South America and defeating the Portuguese and English and South America all the way to the Rio De La Plata, which is today Buenos Aires.

And that's why today, for example, what do I speak?

Spanish and Portuguese like Brazil does?

And so all that happened even before Spain would get into the war, because they were preparing to get into the war at the right time.

They learned from the previous war.

When it became obvious that, Spain was going to become the lynchpin to this war, Floridablanca the Secretary of State of Spain, said, “Well, I'm a good poker player.

Let's see, how the English are going to play their hand.” And so basically, he confronted them, saying that, you know, “negotiate for peace.” And independence is non-negotiable.

We, you know, we'll stay out of the war, and it's all done.

If you don't, we're getting in the war and you're going to lose.

I'm holding the cards.

>>Faith: Wow.

>>Chavez: The British, didn't want to negotiate for peace.

So in June of 1779, June 21st, 1779, Spain declared war in England.

You can go to all our documents of George Washington, the Continental Congress, John Adams.

They all knew as soon as Spain joined the war, that victory was theirs, because Spain turned the thing into not a Revolution, but a World War.

When Spain got into it, then there's fighting in Europe, there's fighting in Central America, there's fighting in the Gulf Coast, there's fighting up the Mississippi River.

It's all over.

And so the strategy that Spain set when it got into the wars make them make some hard choices.

What's more important to them?

The West Indies trade in Jamaica.

Oh, there would, wood cutting activities in Central America, their idea of cutting a canal up the Rio Nicaragua and Lake Nicaragua, 11 miles from the coast to the sea.

We can stop them.

Is that more important to them than, cold ports in Boston and New York?

>>Faith: Wow, that's amazing.

>>Chavez: Yeah, and you can throw Gibraltar and in the Mediterranean island of Menorca into that too.

Or how about an invasion of Britain itself?

So all that's on the table now.

>>Faith: Yeah, so Spain was a big -- >>Chavez: So that's how that happened.

>>Faith: Who were some key figures in Spain's involvement in the war?

>>Chavez: Well, you start with the King.

Who oversaw all of that.

And that's Carlos the Third.

The English call him Charles but his name was Carlos.

It's not that hard to pronounce.

So, we'll go with Carlos the Third.

He oversaw that and he was an enlightened, despot.

He was a king, but he was an enlightened one.

He promoted people into his ministries, for their talent, not for their wealth, necessarily.

And so he had people like the Count of Floridablanca Jose de Galvez, and different ministers and he had an emissary, Francisco de Saavedra, whose biography I just finished.

All these people were educated, learned people.

Enlightened people, well read.

Most of them were multilingual.

Where our Founding Fathers weren't.

So, for example, when Franklin went to Paris, he couldn't speak French, and, But he would the ladies anyways.

In English.

And so -- they set the strategy and, in the, they started with the covert aid in contact with the various, colonial representatives.

And, moved on from there.

they wouldn't rush into the war until they got their fleet back from South America, for example.

They knew that with, their navy and France's navy combined, it would be larger than Britain's, which was a rule that Britain had and still has, I think, it's an island.

So they always had this rule.

Our navy should be larger than the next two countries combined because, you know, to protect themselves.

And, they kind of forgot about Spain until it was too late.

And the two combined navies were larger than Britain's.

And, in those days, you know, ships of the line of year were called the battleships, the, the big sailing ships with two lines of cannons on each side, you know, 60 to 120 cannons.

Those are the ships of the line.

And all you had to do was line them up and you know who was going to win that battle.

And, so they counted their navies like we would count.

Say, I guess, F-16's today, you know.

We have Ukraine asking for F-16s, you know.

>>Faith: Well, how did Spain's actions in places like Louisiana and like Texas and New Mexico shape the outcome of the war?

>>Chavez: How did places like that shape the outcome of the war?

>>Faith: Yeah.

Louisiana, New Mexico, Texas -- >>Chavez: Well, Louisiana was the big key because England was not completely stupid, right?

They figured out, one of their strategies was come in and surround the colonies, basically, come down from Canada through the Great Lakes into the Ohio River and Illinois River.

And, take St.

Louis and from there move south to New Orleans.

And St.

Louis and New Orleans at that time were Spanish.

So the governor of Louisiana was stationed in New Orleans, and that would have been Bernardo de Gálvez, who has surfaced as the big hero so far.

Almost like he's the only hero, but it's far from from the truth of the matter.

And, and so fighting took place there, and we know from our history books that there was this guy, George Rogers Clark.

You know, one of the names that we were taught by the football coach back then in high school and George Rogers Clark fought the British, Where?

In the Ohio River Valley.

Where did he get his gunpowder and his supplies?

St.

Louis, he would travel down to Spanish St.

Louis, and the supplies would be supplied up through New Orleans, to him.

And so he was involved, you know, with Spain, even before Spain got involved in the war.

They were supplying George Rogers Clark when Spain declared the war.

Then they sent a contingent from St.

Louis to as far north as Saint Joseph, Michigan, where they sacked and burnt a British fort.

So, you know, that should at least, if nothing else, get people to think, in our Revolution, Spanish sacked and burnt a fort in Michigan, a British fort in Michigan.

What's that all about?

That should raise a lot of questions.

And the answer to that is Spain was involved in our Independence and had a key role in it.

>>Faith: Wow, and why do you think that not more people know about this story?

Why is it not really spoken about?

>>Chavez: We were quick to -- give credit for one.

And that has to do with the Reformation Counter-Reformation thing that started.

It was just an attitude, thing.

Our Founding Fathers knew.

But even as they were negotiating with Spain and receiving aid, they complained that Spain wasn't doing enough.

And you get into the Spanish documents and they can't understand why the colonials aren't recognizing their help.

And that was part of it.

Then after that, we kind of got into celebrating ourselves.

You know, we became legends in our own minds about how important we are, and that only George Washington won the war.

And you stop and think, “Where'd he get all the supplies?” Even his uniforms and his weapons, where'd all that come from?” because they didn't have the money.

You know, the colonials didn't have the money and, you know, and, so there's that.

Then our historians got, interested in Spain for its explorations.

And we know that New Mexico, we like to talk about Coronado and Oñate and Cortés and Pizarro and all the explorations that took place.

And, so that became a big subject matter.

And borderland studies is what that's all about.

And, subsequent historians got interested in the Spanish Civil War, more contemporary history, and they never thought to think about Spain's involvement in our own Revolution.

I think probably our government today thinks that we won the war by ourselves.

You know, well, I got news for them, that could not have happened at all.

And so what happens is -- the other thing is a matter of language.

Even the ones who could read Spanish were interested in other things.

And so the people that studied our revolution studied documents of our Founding Fathers.

Some of them expanded into French because the French army was with Washington, which is another thing that kind of set up a roadblock to understanding as Spain was involved.

But none of them thought, to study Spain.

there was a couple of people before me that got there.

They actually published it in Spanish.

Actually -- the Spanish understood their involvement more than we did.

And so when I started researching, the only books published were in Spanish about about the subject.

But then I found a mountain of documents that I could expand on.

So it's just a lot of things.

And, you know, it's even now, when I started talking about it before my first book came out, I gave a talk back in New England, I think it was Brown University, one of the Ivy League schools, they had me in a thing that almost was like the Inquisition or the was rows of seats up and, and I was in a corner and I started talking about this and I could see that, you know, the eyes rolling and glancing over like, you know, what's this Beauford from New Mexico know about our war?

You know, it's our war.

There was no Spanish involved in our war.

This is impossible.

And I finally had to stop and say, “Hey, you know what?

I know you don't believe me.

I can tell by the looks on your face.

You don't have to believe me.

That's what footnotes are for.” You know, get my book.

Look at the footnote.

Look where it says George Washington wrote to this person and said this.

They knew more about the war than you did.

and that's all I'm doing.

Sharing their point of view.

>>Faith: What do you hope people will take away from understanding the story of Spain's involvement in the war?

>>Chavez: Well, that -- the wonderful history of the birth of this nation is made even more wonderful, If you know the full story because our Revolution became a world war, became a conflict between European nations.

And without that, we couldn't have won our independence in that war.

We may have gotten some over time -- eventually, but it wouldn't have been in that Revolution.

And so what does that mean?

That the birth of our nation took place in an inclusive environment.

And so our country, you know, we like to say, you know, we're the melting pot.

We're so inclusive and stuff.

Well, it was from the inception that way.

And it wasn't just people here, it was the people that helped us become who we are.

And so, for example, the Battle of Yorktown is the battle that supposedly won the war.

And the football coaches tell us that Yorktown was the big victory.

George Washington and Rochambeau defeated Lord Cornwallis and the British Army for the first big victory.

It couldn't have happened without Spain.

And how's that?

There was no Spaniards there, so no one's going to write about them winning the battle.

They paid for it, and they paid for it how?

Oh, this guy Saavedra -- representative to the King is with the French fleet in the Caribbean in what is today Haiti.

And they're planning an invasion of Jamaica, which it was more important to England than New York at that time, and said, that'll stop the war.

We invade Jamaica.

And then they hear the British have moved to the Chesapeake Bay, where Yorktown is, and the fleet isn't there!

The fleet isn't there!

Why?

Because they're worried about an invasion of England.

And the whole point that George Washington couldn't ever win a battle was because the British fleet was always there, supplying its army and moving its army.

Whereas George Washington had to, you know, petition and ask for supplies and beg for supplies off farms and stuff and was hoping that more shipments would come in from Spain or France.

And he would -- how is he moving his troops on land?

Well, you know what?

Its easier going by sea I mean, the British are there with their elbows up on the gun wells and -- taunting the soldiers, the Yankee Doodle Dandies, you know, who are, you know moving boulders and cutting trees and moving through snow and camping in the winter.

You know, where's the British troops?

What did they do?

They took over the cities, they're living in town.

And so get them separated from their navy and we might win.

And it happened at Yorktown.

And that word comes to the French admiral.

And there's this guy, Saavedra, there.

This genius of a man and the Frenchman said, “oh, we have this opportunity and we can't take advantage.” And Saavedra says, “oh, you can't pass this up.

This is the opportunity that won't come again.” This is what we've been waiting for.” and they said, “well, I'm okay.

I can take some of my ships.” And Saavedra said, “You've taken all your ships.” so then I won't be protected here.

And he says, “on my authority, the Spanish will protect your fleet.” And so then Grassi, who was the admiral, said, “What about the money?” Well, it turns out Spain was paying for the French fleet in the Caribbean.

All their supplies and everything was -- and where was that money coming from?

Mexico, then called New Spain, because Mexico had silver.

And the only other place in the Spanish Empire outside of Spain where you could make coins; Mexico.

And those pieces were called Pieces of Eight.

The coin, it was just -- it was just a coin and you could break it up into eight pieces and two pieces, and they were called bits.

And so two bits is 25%.

Two bits in English is a quarter.

It comes from the revolution in Spanish money.

>>Faith: Amazing, wow.

>>Chavez: And so -- Saavedra tells them, “Well, the treasure fleet from Veracruz, Mexico is coming to Havana.

It should be here.

You know what?

Send your fastest frigate.” You know, those fast boats?

Those are the ones, you know, the commander and all that and all the good looking dudes in the blue shirts sail on.

And swashbuckle on.

That would have been beyond that, because women swoon when they see you and those, you know.

And he says, “Send your fastest frigate to Havana to get the money to pay for this.” And you can go to Yorktown.

[Unintelligable] “That's a great idea.

But I have a better one.” What's that?

and he says, “You go to Havana, Francisco.” “You go.” So Francisco, who kind of looked like Antonio Banderes actually -- Goya painted is his portrait -- good looking guy, you know, with the baby blue pants and the white socks and a ponytail with a big bow.

And on the big blue shirt, you can just see him on that ship, you know, sailing as fast as he can to get to to Havana and avoid the British and then get the money and get it back to the French.

And what happened was he got there and the treasure fleet hadn't shown up.

So he meets with the leadership in Cuba of all places, and they agree to take up a collection from the merchants.

Well, Havana was a rich city then, one of the riches in the Americas, and the merchants in one afternoon contributed over $2.5 million, and that was put on the British frigate and sailed north.

That's the money that paid for Yorktown.

>>Faith: That's amazing, and it just kind of proves that America can't do everything by itself, right?

>>Chavez: Well, it even gets better because of course, the merchants didn't give the money.

It was a loan to the government.

Who wants to loan money to a government?

[Both laugh] >>Chavez: But they did.

They did.

And the promise was, well, when the treasure fleet from Mexico comes, you will be paid back.

And that's what happened.

So technically, now you have money raised in Cuba that went to to Yorktown to pay for the battle that won our Revolution and that was paid back by money from Mexico.

So what do we all Mexico?

>>Faith: That's a good question.

>>Chavez: In part for our Independence.

>>Faith: Yeah, wow What about soldiers?

>>Chavez: That's one of the reasons we don't know the story, because we know of the French soldiers that fought with Washington.

But Spanish soldiers fought and died fighting British soldiers in the Mississippi River at St.

Louis and Michigan.

They took Mobile from the British in Pensacola, Florida, from the British and fought them in Central America and probably the most vicious fighting of the whole war.

Then they laid siege to Gibraltar and took the British island of Menorca in the Mediterranean Sea from the British.

So Spanish soldiers fought and died in that same war.

>>Faith: Wow.

>>Chavez: So maybe we should write about that too.

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Funding for COLORES was provided in part by: New Mexico PBS Great Southwestern Arts & Education Endowment Fund, and the Nellita E. Walker Fund for KNME-TV at the Albuquerque Community Foundation New Mexico Arts, a division of the Department of Cultural Affairs and by the National Endowment for the Arts and Viewers Like You.