(upbeat music) - Hello, and welcome to "Journal."

I'm Steve Kendall.

If you're a local sports fan, you'll probably recognize the face and the voice of our guest for "Journal" today.

It's Tom Cole.

He's an author, a coach, a sports personality around Northwest Ohio and Southeast Michigan.

And we're gonna find out a lot more about him because there's more than just those three or four things.

So, Tom Cole, welcome to "The Journal" today.

- Steve, it's an honor to be with you.

I'm proud to be here.

Thank you so very much.

- And thank you for doing this.

So, kind of just tell us a little bit about your story, because you're trying to like, I wanna say, you know, we throw the term Renaissance Man around a lot, but you've done a lot of different things, a lot of it tied to education, a lot of it tied to sports.

And you're an author.

We've got pictures of your books back here.

- [Tom] Yes.

- So just talk a little about your journey a little bit, and then we'll delve into some of the details, the specifics of this.

- Well, my journey should be written across the top, Steve.

Dumb luck.

(Steve laughing) - [Steve] Okay.

- I truly, it's been dumb luck.

I've just kind of fallen into so many things.

My mom told me a long time ago, she was a pretty smart lady, best, smartest person I knew.

She told me when an opportunity presents itself, say yes.

And she said that, she told me the worst thing that can happen to you is you find out that, well, okay, it's not for you or you're not good at that, but you find out, and you may find out the converse that you are good at it, and it can be a career.

So that's really been, you know, for me it's been privileged to, I got to play, I was the first quarterback in the history of St. John's High School, which I was kind of proud of.

That was a great experience.

I coached and taught history and English there for about 22 years, coached in college at Adrian.

Did a little consulting at Michigan with their quarterbacks.

So I got to play, coach, and then the broadcasting, again, dumb luck, Steve.

I'm not kidding.

- [Steve] Yeah, yeah.

- [Tom] I was at practice one day at St. John's, and somebody from Buckeye Cable came out there and went to our head coach, Fred Beier, who's a really good guy, great guy.

He's in every Hall of Fame in America and deservedly so.

And they said, do you wanna do, we're gonna start a Buckeye Cable game of the week, and would you like to do color on the game, right?

- [Steve] Yeah.

- Fred was not a media guy.

He didn't like the media at all.

And he said, no, absolutely no.

But he says, I've got a guy here on staff.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- He said, he might not be terrible.

(Steve laughing) So they came, they came and asked me, and I did the Buckeye Game of the Week, one game.

- [Steve] Right.

One football game a week for Buckeye Cable.

And I did that.

It was a great experience.

I had never done anything like that before.

But back to what my mom said, give it a shot.

- [Steve] Give it a shot and see what happens, sure.

- So, Allan Block got the idea for BCSN, a 24 hour, seven day a week sports channel.

There's nothing like it in the country.

Even today there's nothing like it in the country.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- They cover a myriad of sports, boys and girls evenly.

You know, the girls get the exact same amount of opportunities.

And BCSN came to me and said, you know, hey, you're not terrible.

You wanna do BCSN.

I didn't know what BCSN was.

I didn't know what it could be, what the possibilities were.

- [Steve] How long it was gonna be around, any of that, yeah.

- Yeah, 100%, and so, and I've done that.

I did that for 20 years, and their 20 year anniversary is coming up in January.

I did the first show at Owens Community College, I think January 4th.

So 20 years this January.

- [Steve] Wow.

- And I've retired a couple times from BCSN, and I keep coming back.

- [Steve] Keep coming back.

- Yeah, they kindly ask me to do things, so I'm doing more, some things with 'em again.

But, so that broadcasting experience was absolutely incredible.

I did most, or for a wide swath of years, Bowling Green Football.

- [Steve] Right.

- Bowling Green Basketball, which was a real privilege.

People at BG treated us so well.

I mean, you know, 'cause we went to a, we did a lot of games.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- And most people treat you okay, but Bowling Green was always warm, inviting, friendly.

What can we do for you?

- [Steve] Yeah.

- So that was a great experience.

I saw great student athletes at Bowling Green.

It was a real great experience.

And then I've always been kind of a writer.

I've written articles for magazines and that type thing.

And then I started writing these novelettes, kind of taking football experiences and writing with those.

And then I also write songs and kind of a BMI songwriter, so.

- Yeah, I saw that in the bio too.

I say there's a lot, there's more than just the sports part.

- Well, if you're not really good at anything, you kind of, Steve, I found out, you spread it out, and then they don't catch up with you.

No, they don't.

- [Steve] It takes 'em awhile to figure out.

- Nah, it takes 'em a while to figure out that you have no skill, and you have no talent, so.

- [Steve] But they're still all the last thing.

- [Tom] Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

You're just onto something else before they find out.

- [Steve] One step ahead of 'em.

Now when you talk about the people you've worked with, like at Bowling Green, who are some of the people that you shared the microphone with during those times?

- [Tom] Oh, well, Greg Franke.

- [Steve] Okay.

- Greg, I think has broadcast on this channel I think in the past.

And he's a remarkable guy.

He's done more games on BCSN than anybody in the history of the organization.

He's a consummate play-by-play guy.

And I'll tell you, play-by-play is hard to do.

People criticize, like the guys on ESPN and all that.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- This guy stinks, and this guy's that, or this.

And they don't understand when you're sitting in your living room in your, you know, pajamas.

- [Steve] Yeah, it's easy to do.

- It's easy to call the game, but when you're on air, it's totally different.

And Greg's a consummate broadcaster.

BCSN's lucky to have him.

- [Steve] Yeah, now when you look at the, over the course of your career with the broadcasting part, how different is it in year 18, 19, 20 than it was maybe the first time you did it?

Obviously the technology's different.

- [Tom] Yeah.

- But has other things changed around it that makes it a challenge to do the games compared to what it was?

- The technology, that's a good question, Steve.

The technology is way different.

When I look at the very first broadcast that we did, it's almost like you could be running by candlelight.

You know?

I mean, it really was.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- It was a rudimentary start.

I mean, you know, it was a startup organization.

Everything was new, and you watch the early shows, and you go, hmm, that's a little rough.

But through repetition, I think broadcasting is muscle memory, through repetition, you know, you've hosted so many shows.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- You're gonna get better and better and better and better at doing it.

Just the sheer volume and repetition of it.

And I think that's what happened at BCSN.

- Well, and if you look back too, even if you look at network news, if you see old clips from the 60s, 70s.

- [Tom] Oh, yeah.

- The way the sets looked is totally different.

And you think, wow, that looks really low, you know, low production value, but that was.

- [Tom] It's dark.

The studio's dark.

You know, look at the first, the early ESPN broadcasts.

- [Steve] Oh, yeah.

- Whoa, I mean, they look like they're shot in a basement, you know?

- [Steve] Yeah, which they might have been actually.

- They could have been, yeah.

(cross talking) - But it is interesting now.

With your books, and we're gonna obviously go into more detail because we're coming toward the end of the segment.

You've written four books so far, and we've got pictures of 'em up here behind you.

- [Tom] Yeah, thank you for doing that.

- And I noticed that they're, they kind of have a range of things because "Black in the Pocket" is a kind of a serious addressing of an issue that had plagued sports for a long, long time, football, especially.

When you sat down to each of those books, was there one that kind of stands out that you're like, I really loved doing that book.

That was the one that I, if somebody said, what was my favorite book?

What's your favorite book of the ones you've done so far?

Probably the next one's your favorite one, right?

- Well, and Steve, you're good at, you're good at this.

That's a great question.

And they're all different.

You know, they're all kinda like your kids in a way.

You know, like the first one, "Benny and Babe" is a kid's sports story, and I used personification where the, kind of like the old Mark Fidrych thing, the baseball could talk to the little kid.

And he was struggling as a pitcher.

And one day this baseball comes, and it's talking to him about, hey, don't worry Benny, just throw the ball up there.

I'll take care of the rest.

And he strikes out all these guys.

And Benny suddenly goes from being a terrible pitcher to now he's the star of the team.

And all the kid needed was confidence.

And at the end of the book, Benny feels like Babe helped him, the talking baseball.

And he said, I've gotta help him get back to the majors.

He was a major league baseball.

Somehow he got outta the.

- [Steve] Got it, got it.

- So he begged his dad to take him to a San Diego Padres game, and he took Babe with him.

Somebody hit a home run in the stands next to Benny.

So he took Babe.

- [Steve] And threw him back on the field.

- Threw him back onto the field, and Babe was back in the majors.

- [Steve] Back in the Majors.

- [Tom] Yeah.

- [Steve] Yeah, what a great ending.

Good, great story.

So yeah, we've got more great stories with Tom Cole coming up.

Back in just a moment here on "The Journal."

Thank you for staying with us on "The Journal."

Our guest is Tom Cole, author, athlete, sports personality, announcer.

Pretty much a little bit of everything, songwriter.

We talked about one of your books, "Benny and The Babe."

- [Tom] Right.

- But behind us, of course, people are seeing what's up behind us on the monitors, are three of your other books.

So talk a little about each of those because they all have a unique perspective on the story they're telling, and the one thing that always amazes me about writers, and you're no different.

The imagination you use with "Benny and the Babe."

- [Tom] Right.

- The baseball story, I mean, for a lot of people, you just don't have that skill where you could take that and turn that into a, your imagination led you to put that whole story together.

So talk a little about, just talk a little about your creative process, then we'll talk in more detail about the books.

- Well, first of all, Steve, I truly believe that, you know, I'm nothing special.

I just wrote, and people said I can't write.

I can't do it.

I can't, yes, you can.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- You get up and you have a designated time, and you're gonna write, and the first things you write might not be that good.

You know, they always, people always say, well, I could never write a book.

And I say, yes, you can.

- [Steve] Yeah, you gotta start.

- You have, Steve, you're a smart man.

You know, you have to start.

And there's a easy way to do it.

Not easy, but I think it would make it easier for people that haven't written.

What you do is, say your book's gonna be 12 chapters, whatever.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- You write down the title of each chapter, right?

So I've got 12 chapters.

I've written out 12, I've done nothing else but written the chapter titles.

And then you pick where you wanna start.

People have trouble going in sequential order.

- [Steve] Right.

- They have trouble starting from the very beginning and writing it all the way through to the end.

So the way to do the book is say maybe chapter 12 or Chapter 10 is something that I really feel strongly about.

Okay, I'll write that one out.

That one's done.

Then I'll go to chapter six.

Okay, I've got something on six.

When you have to try and write it from A to Z all the way through.

- [Steve] Yeah, in sequence, it just doesn't work.

- [Tom] It's much tougher.

This way, it allows you to get started, and you start filling in the chapters.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- And that's kind of the process.

And I think everybody has a book in them.

I, honestly, guys, when you write something like that, you learn things about yourself, you know?

- [Steve] Sure.

- Because it's, it's not easy, but it's a great process, and it's fun.

So, yeah.

- [Steve Yeah, but I'm always impressed by the because we've had, you know, children's book authors, people from all, writing different levels.

It's like the things that they come up with, the ideas.

It's finding that idea.

And I guess you are right.

I mean, the first time you wrote a song, it probably wasn't the best song you ever wrote.

- [Tom] No.

- Sometimes people luck into it the first time, and that's the only one they have.

- [Tom] The last one I wrote wasn't that good, you know.

But, you know, the baseball thing I stole from Mark Fidrych, you know, Fidrych used to talk to the baseball all the time.

- [Steve] Yeah, talked to the ball.

- And I thought, well, huh.

What if the baseball was talking back to Fidrych?

And then subtract Mark and put in a young baseball player?

And there you go.

- But see that's the genius of it, is being able to say, take that one piece of reality and then turn it into this.

- [Tom] Right.

- This larger imaginative story.

- [Tom] Right.

- That feels like reality when you read the book.

- [Tom] Yes.

- Even though you, you know, you're thinking baseballs don't talk.

- [Tom] Right.

- But in this case, this one did.

So talk about your other books a little bit.

- [Tom] Okay.

- Because obviously there's, incredible stories in each one.

I think that's what's amazing about it too.

- Well, the one called "One Last Fall," it's about, and again, they're all things I pretty much experienced in some form as a player or as a coach.

It's an aging quarterback.

He plays on a professional team.

He's an aging quarterback, good guy, high-character guy.

You know, his skills are starting to diminish.

He's just hanging on for one more season.

Doesn't know what he wants to do with his life after football, but he's gonna have to find something.

But he's hanging on.

The young quarterback who's the star of the team, and he's the guy, he's the star.

He gets paid the money.

He's kind of a jerk.

You know, he's not nice to people.

He's self-centered.

He's not a team guy.

And this quarterback, the older gentleman is the glue that holds the team together.

He does all the little things to keep people on task, on page, and the theme to me was how many organizations do you know that the people behind the scenes.

- [Steve] Yeah are actually.

- Some of them are really the total key for the operation to work.

And then other people might not know this.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- But they're the key.

And sometimes the star is not the person that's really holding the thing together.

- [Steve] Making it all work.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- [Steve] Yeah, they're out in front.

They're taking the credit.

They get all the, all the flash from it.

- [Tom] Yes.

- [Steve] But really all the gears are turning with somebody else at the wheel kind of, yeah.

- [Tom] And all the people that I put in "One Last Fall" were basically people I had met or coached or played against, those type characters.

So I already had the characters just, I even used some of the real names I had to go ask.

- [Steve] Uh, oh.

- I had to go ask some of my old plain partners that, do you mind if I use your name in this book?

- [Steve] And well, I was gonna ask you if somebody said, hey, wait a minute, that's me in the book without their name, but okay, so.

- You gotta ask 'em up front.

And I said, do you mind?

And to a man they said, no, use my name.

That's great.

- [Steve] Yeah, cool, yeah.

- So they liked it.

- Well, you know, it's like, who wouldn't wanna be in one of your books, right?

I mean, it kind of a, yeah.

- [Tom] It was fun, and they enjoyed it, and they got a kick out it so.

- So , yeah, but it's an interesting story of behind the scenes of what you see at the front isn't necessarily what's really going on.

- [Tom] 100%, well, you and I have been in organizations our entire lives, right?

- [Steve] Yeah.

- And you know who the front people are.

Hey, maybe they're great people, and they very well could be.

- [Steve] And sometimes.

(cross talking) - Sometimes they are, they're wonderful people.

Yes, but sometimes maybe not so much.

- [Steve] Every once in awhile.

- And you know, there's ego in this business, right?

- [Steve] Sure, absolutely.

- And we know that.

And sometimes they get carried away with, hey, do you know who I am?

You know, my philosophy is nobody really cares.

- [Steve] Who you are.

- Yeah, they don't really care, you know, and it's usually people in the background that really hold the entire process together.

So that was the theme of one, and a caveat to "One Last Fall" was kind of surprising to me, when Covid hit, Netflix, they, people burned through all the stories.

- [Steve] Yeah, right.

- On Netflix.

And they're still struggling with that today.

And I had somebody reach out to me, this Todd Phillips Productions, I thought it was just a scam for money.

You know, they wanted to talk to me about the book and movie production company.

I, come on, what you want $10,000?

And then you'll look at it, you know?

So I didn't pay attention to it.

I just, you know, didn't answer the email, didn't, and they kept emailing, kept emailing.

So I said, okay, I'm gonna look up Todd Phillips Productions in Hollywood, California.

- [Steve] See if this is a real thing or not, yeah.

- Todd Phillips is the guy who produced all the Hangover movies.

- [Steve] Oh!

- And "War Dogs."

And he's, you know, he's worth $500 million, and.

- [Steve] He's a legitimate operation.

- It's the real deal.

And there's no guarantee, but our story had gotten good ratings.

They were going through, looking at the high rated things, and they wanted me to turn it into a screenplay for them to look at.

No guarantee they'd do anything.

- [Steve] Sure, sure.

- But they wanted to look at it, and I haven't done it yet.

It's a different kind of writing, but I will eventually get around to it.

- [Steve] Yeah, that's, yeah, another well, you say it's another take a chance, see what happens.

- Yeah, what do you have to lose?

- [Steve] Yeah, open up another avenue here, so, yeah.

Now you've got two other books.

We have just a couple of minutes here.

We'll make sure we get to all of 'em.

But when you looked at this other book, and I dunno which one you wanna talk about next, but what would you like to.

- [Tom] "The Class of '73" was.

- Okay, all right.

- I really took my college experiences.

I went to college, a freshman in '69, graduated in '73 at Ohio Wesleyan University, a little small school on the way to Columbus and had a great experience.

And, you know, we went through basically Woodstock, you know, Watergate, I mean, Vietnam.

- [Steve] Kent State.

- Kent State.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- You add all those things in.

It was a really tumultuous time to be in college.

- [Steve] Sure.

- So I wrote about that experience and what it was like on campus, what it was like trying to play sports during that period of time.

We had some buildings burned down on our campus.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- The Weathermen came from Columbus, were kind of a very subversive group.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- They came in and burned down a couple of our buildings, and we went home for two weeks or whatever.

I mean, it was.

- [Steve] Yeah, not the usual college experience that people think about.

- And then I had friends that, you know, unfortunately, you know, flunked out of school, and they ended up, two months later, they're in Vietnam.

- [Steve] In the military.

- You know?

So it was very interesting.

So the whole book is about, you know, I met my wife at senior year of school, and the whole thing is about the college experience.

So, and the last one.

- [Steve] Yeah, we can, let's.

- You wanna hold on?

- [Steve] Yeah, we'll come back.

We'll come back, and we'll talk about "Black in the Pocket" cause that's a serious, serious story.

"Class of '73" is serious as well, but.

- [Tom] Yeah.

- "Black in the Pocket," it points out some things that have been.

- [Tom] It really does, yeah.

- Been difficult for American sports for a long time.

Back in just a moment with author, sports personality and all around do a little bit of everything guy, Tom Cole.

Back in just a minute.

You're with us on "The Journal."

Our guest is Tom Cole, local sports personality, announcer, author, coach, educator.

We've talked about three of your books.

- [Tom] Yes.

- And the one that we haven't talked about yet is the one that's over both of our shoulders.

It's called "Black in the Pocket," kind of a serious book.

- [Tom] It is.

- A little more serious than, it's more historical maybe, more non-fiction than fiction.

- [Tom] 100%.

- 100%, so talk about "Black in the Pocket" cause there's a local connection that we can obviously talk about with that as well.

- [Tom] Yes.

You know, I played the position at quarterback, not well, but I played it, and then I coached it for a lifetime.

Probably not well, but I coached it.

And it's a very difficult position to play when all things are good.

I look at the Ohio State kid, no matter who you're for.

He's taken the blame for that loss against.

- [Steve] Yeah, against Michigan.

- Michigan, and if you really understand the quarterback position, he, just a quick caveat, Harrison, who's an incredible receiver, ran a drive slant.

And the one thing you can't do on that is slow down or stop.

He slowed down for whatever reason.

The kid threw it on time.

- [Steve] Where it was supposed to be, where he was supposed to be.

- Where was supposed to be.

And with Harrison slowing down, he allowed the Michigan kid to jump the route.

And then even if that happens, Harrison's job is to break it up.

- Yeah, to make sure the other guy doesn't catch it.

And he didn't do it, either one of those.

- So it was on, it was on Harrison.

And the last one he threw, he was in the pocket.

He couldn't throw it away because it would've been grounding.

He got pressure up the middle.

He had to throw the ball.

There was nothing else.

So it was fourth and long.

- [Steve] Yeah, he had to force it somewhere.

- And he got hit square, you know, he couldn't step into the ball.

He had no chance.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- But people blame him for this.

So the quarterback position is not an easy thing to play.

- [Steve] Well, and it speaks to the point, and we all know this, that the quarterback gets all the blame, when things go wrong, it's his or her fault.

- Right.

- [Steve] When it goes right, it's his or her, hey, look how great you are.

And in this case, unfortunately, yeah, it just, yeah.

A couple of circumstances out of his control in a couple ways.

- [Tom] 100%, Steve.

- But yet it's, he's the one throwing the ball.

So therefore it's his fault.

- When I played in college, I was so bad, Steve, that my coach used to give me the wrong time when the bus was leaving, hoping that I might miss the bus.

- [Steve] I don't know about that.

- No, no, you know, Tom the bus is leaving at one.

You know.

- [Steve] It actually left at 12:45, right?

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We beat him again, you know, but it's such a tough position to play.

But I, the history, and it is, this is a serious book.

The 60s, the 70s, and the 80s, African-American quarterbacks were not given the opportunities that they deserve.

They were told that, okay, well, you know, you're gonna have to be a wide receiver.

- [Steve] Defensive back.

- You're gonna have to be a defensive back, a running back, but you're not gonna play quarterback.

And unfortunately, now things have totally, paradigm has totally changed, which is great.

But those that labored in the 60s and 70s and 80s did not get very often their due.

They did, you know, help and break the ceiling for other quarterbacks.

I mean, Mahomes wouldn't be Mahomes without what Doug Williams did in the Super Bowl 22.

He was, at that time, it was considered and credit Joe Gibbs, no Black quarterback could take you to a Super Bowl and win it.

And it's hard to imagine that people really fought like that.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- It's hard to get your arms around it, but they did.

- [Steve] They did, yeah.

- And Williams in that game, I think he was down early to Denver maybe 14 points or so.

And he, somebody hit his knee in the pocket, and he limped off.

He was, I didn't even think he was coming back in the game.

- [Steve] Right.

- They taped him up, fixed him up, he came back and 340 yards, four touchdowns, and he led Washington, you know, the first Black quarterback to win a Super Bowl.

And that changed a lot of things, but there were so many people that.

- [Steve] Yeah, preceded that, yeah.

- That had to go through horrible situations, and they didn't get the opportunity that they deserved.

And that's kind of what the book is about.

- [Steve] Yeah, well, and even, you know, locally, you look at the University of Toledo.

- Yeah.

- [Steve] Frank Lauterbur took it, you know, Chuck Ealey, Black quarterback, that was really, well, as you we know, almost, it wasn't even rare wouldn't even be the right term for it.

That was a leap beyond what coaches, and even at the mid-am level would do.

And it turned out that Chuck Ealey was an incredible athlete, an incredible star, an incredible leader.

- [Tom] Yes.

- Had all the physical attributes, but also the leadership because that was always one of the, well, you know, a Black quarterback can't really direct a team.

They don't have the leadership skills.

Well, he proved that, but then it took a while longer before Doug Williams showed up and actually, you know, yeah, and it is unfortunate.

You look at that and say, how could people even remotely have thought like that?

- [Tom] It's hard.

It's really hard to get your arms around that.

- [Steve] But it was a time where that, unfortunately, there were a lot of people that thought that way.

- 100%, and Ealey, I got to know Coach Lauterbur pretty well, and I did some football camps with him, and he is a great guy, ex-Marine.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- Pretty tough guy, pretty tough guy.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- And I've worked with Chuck for a long time on his foundation, an incredible guy.

But the story was with Chuck, UT never saw him play football.

They were late to the dance.

Lauterbur sent, Coach Lauterbur, I should say, sent a scout to see Chuck play basketball.

They never saw him,, never saw him throw a football pass.

- [Steve] Really?

Oh my gosh.

- So the scout comes to watch Chuck, Portsmouth, Ohio, Portsmouth High School, and he saw Chuck play basketball.

I think that night he scored 33 points, and he shot the winning basket.

The scout comes back and says, hey, I don't know what he can do in football.

- [Steve] Yeah, he's an incredible basketball player.

- But he's an athlete.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- He's athlete.

- [Steve] Yep.

- So Coach Lauterbur had a scholarship to give, calls Chuck in, and says, okay, you're an athlete.

We want you here at the University of Toledo.

And Chuck said, great, I'm in.

And then, but Coach Lauterbur said, we're gonna look at you as a defensive back, a running back, or a wide receiver.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- And the pregnant pause, and Chuck said, Coach, thanks for the scholarship.

He had no other offers.

But that's the integrity of Chuck Ealey.

He looked at the coach, he said, coach, thanks so much.

I appreciate it, but he says, no.

He says, I'm a quarterback.

I can guarantee it.

- [Steve] I always have been, and that's what I wanna do.

- If you give me an opportunity to compete, I will win this job, and we will do well.

Lauterbur kind of set him back in his chair a little bit, and he says, all right.

I'll give you a chance to compete.

And the rest is history.

Chuck won the job, 35 games in a row.

He never lost a game in high school, by the way, at quarterback.

- [Steve] Yeah, true, yeah.

- Well, he can go back, he never lost one in grade school either.

- [Steve] Yeah, so.

- So grade school, high school, college, and three Tangerine bowls.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- And then of course when he graduates, you think if he came out today, he'd be a first-round draft pick.

- [Steve] Yeah, yeah.

- You know, and, but they weren't gonna give him a chance in the NFL.

And so he went to Canada, and all he did his first year in Canada.

- [Steve] Is win the Grey Cup.

- Grey Cup.

- [Steve] Win the GreyCup, yeah.

- So it's an amazing story, but they, you know, they were gonna change 'em, you know, and it happened again and again and again to a fellow named Marlon Briscoe.

- [Steve] Yes, yeah.

- Marlon Briscoe was one of the great athletes to ever play in the NFL, and he was a backup with the Denver Broncos.

And first two quarterbacks got hurt.

They weren't gonna use him 'cause he was.

- [Steve] Yeah, yeah.

- He was African-American at quarterback.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- And they finally, they got stuck.

They put him in, and he was sensational and just was incredible.

Had Denver, led them to comeback wins and was their best player on the team.

The next year, Steve, they traded him.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- They traded him to Buffalo.

Now after off of that, they traded him to Buffalo, and Buffalo told him, hey, Marlon, you're a pretty good athlete.

You're gonna be a wide receiver.

So they moved him to wide receiver.

The only thing that worked out is that Marlon won two Super Bowls.

He was traded from Buffalo to Miami Dolphins.

He won two Super Bowls with the Dolphins as a wide receiver.

But he was a great quarterback.

One of those guys who didn't get their due.

- [Steve] Didn't get, yeah.

And should've gotten a better opportunity.

He got, yeah.

And even after getting the opportunity, they still went well, no.

- Yeah, and he still did it, but they didn't, you know, didn't continue to use him.

- [Steve] Yeah, they didn't believe their eyes.

- You have to ask yourself, well, what reason would that be?

He played great for you.

- [Steve] He did everything you wanted him to do.

- [Tom] Yes.

- And yet, yeah.

Well, and I guess part of it too, and we will never know too, all of that, but, you know, teams looked at it and said, well, what would our fan base think of that if we make somebody, you know, make a person like that, you know, those, somebody, and yet, so that probably factored in too.

Then they, so they schlep him off to Buffalo.

- [Tom] Yeah.

- Which, okay, I'm trying to think of how good Buffalo was in those days.

- [Tom] They were okay.

= They were decent, but they weren't, yeah.

Now when you sit down to write that book, obviously this is, you know, factual information.

- [Tom] Yes.

- It's serious.

Did that, was that a challenge for you to write that?

Because your other books have, I mean, your "Class of '73" was a story based on a lot of factual things and real people.

And "One Last Fall" had real characters too.

But this was probably a little more, this was almost like historical writing.

You're laying down a story that is gonna, you know, needs to be perfect, needs to be factual.

- [Tom] Yeah, that's very true.

- [Steve] Needs to be very on target with everything.

- Very perceptive, Steve.

That's exactly it.

But the quarterback position had been a lifetime hobby for me.

So I really knew, I had followed all these careers and followed all these players and read about them my entire life, never even thinking that I was gonna write a book about it, but it was kind of a, it was kind of a hobby to me.

So I knew, I knew a lot of the stories, and I always wondered too, as a younger person, why didn't Marlon Briscoe get the opportunity?

I'm, you know, it didn't make sense.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- Didn't make sense to me.

How is this possible?

And then there were others that didn't get opportunities again and again and again and again.

And, you know, it was, part of it, it's horrible to have to say, but a lot of times you had old white owners, and you had older white coaches, and they truly believed, and I think, I don't know how they could have believed this, but they truly believed that their team would not follow an African-American quarterback.

- [Steve] And there's that too.

- Which is absurd, you know?

- [Steve] Yeah.

- Because, yeah.

- And unfortunately we're kind of, but it does lose because sports is supposed to be the ultimate meritocracy.

- [Tom] Yes, spot on Steve.

- Yeah, so for people to overthink that and think, well, no, they're gonna go, you know, yeah, that guy's really good.

But no, we're not gonna follow him because of some other aspect of his character, so.

- [Tom] 100%.

- So, yeah, well, great books, Tom.

I know you've got another one coming out.

- [Tom] Yeah.

- In the spring, so, we'll, yeah, maybe have you come back and talk about that.

- [Tom] It'd be my honor.

This has been great.

- Yeah, great stories.

And we appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today.

- Totally, my honor to be with you, Steve.

Thank you so very much.

- Yeah, thank you.

You can check us out at WBGU.org and of course, each week on WBGU-PBS.

We will see you again next time on "The Journal."

Good night and good luck.

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