♪ MUSIC REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO A WONDERFUL EDITION OF REPORT FROM SANTA FE BECAUSE OUR GUESTS ARE FORMER AMBASSADOR, FORMER SENATOR, WE'LL TALK ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND, TOM UDALL AND HIS WIFE, JILL COOPER UDALL.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>TOM: YOU BET, IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOU ARE A STATESMAN AND A POLITICIAN, LITTLE ABOUT YOU, YOU ARE NEW MEXICO'S ATTORNEY GENERAL FROM '91 TO '99, THE NEW MEXICO REPRESENTATIVE FROM '99 TO 2009, AND A SENATOR FROM 2009 TO 2021, AND THE AMBASSADOR TO NEW ZEALAND AND SAMOA FROM '21 TO '25.

WHAT A WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL CAREER, AND I KNOW YOU TWO ARE A GREAT TEAM, SO THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE, THANK YOU FOR DOING ALL THIS.

CAN WE TALK ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND, BECAUSE THEY CALL YOUR PEOPLE THE KENNEDYS OF THE WEST, IF YOU DON'T MIND.

>>TOM: LET ME JUST SAY THAT WHEN YOU'RE MENTIONING BOTH OF US, THAT WE REALLY HAVE DONE THESE THINGS OVER THE YEARS AS A TEAM.

>>LORENE: ABSOLUTELY.

>>TOM: AND JILL, SHE'S THE BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ME, AND SO I FEEL VERY STRONGLY, SHE PLAYED A KEY ROLE AT MANY, MANY STAGES IN ALL THOSE JOBS YOU TALKED ABOUT.

>>JILL: ALSO, AMANDA, OUR DAUGHTER.

>>LORENE: YES, YES, YES, YES.

BUT YOUR BACKGROUND IS QUITE EXTENSIVE TOO, ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU'VE DONE AND ARE REALLY GOOD AT.

BUT YOU ARE THE SON OF THE FORMER US REP AND SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR, STUART UDALL, AND I DO HAVE ONE SHOW WITH THE TWO OF YOU TOGETHER AND MY FAVORITE PART ABOUT IT, IT WAS A REAL THREE-HANKY SPECIAL.

I ASKED YOU WHAT YOU EACH WERE PROUDEST OF ABOUT EACH OTHER, AND IT WAS JUST BEAUTIFUL, SUCH DEEP LOVE AND RESPECT, IT WAS LOVELY TO SEE.

YOU'RE THE NEPHEW OF FORMER US REP MORRIS OR MO UDALL, AND YOUR COUSIN MARK UDALL WAS A FORMER COLORADO SENATOR, SO YOU'VE MADE YOUR MARKS ON THE WEST FOR SURE.

YOU'VE BEEN KNOWN FOR YOUR WORK WITH ENVIRONMENTAL INTERESTS.

WHAT IS THE INTERNATIONAL CONSERVATION CAUCUS THAT YOU WERE INVOLVED WITH FOR A WHILE?

>>TOM: THERE'S A WONDERFUL ORGANIZATION THAT WORKS INTERNATIONALLY TO TRY TO DO CONSERVATION WORK, AND THEY DO A NUMBER OF THINGS ALL OVER THE WORLD, WE STARTED WORKING WITH THEM, A PROGRAM WHERE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TRAVELED OVERSEAS TO SEE ALL THE WILDLIFE AND SEE REALLY WILD PLACES AND REALLY GET OUT AND EXPERIENCE NATURE AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT TO THEM.

THEY CALLED IT THE INTERNATIONAL CONSERVATION CAUCUS, WAS THE THING, BIPARTISAN THAT I STARTED AND THE INTERNATIONAL CONSERVATION ORGANIZATION AND ITS FOUNDATION WORKED ON JUST INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT THINGS IN TERMS OF PROTECTING NATURE.

>>LORENE: YEAH, WHICH WE NOW HAVE TO DO MORE THAN EVER.

>>JILL: CONSERVATION INTERNATIONAL IS WHAT IT'S CALLED, AND THEY HAD THEIR HOT SPOTS, WHICH WERE THE PLACES THAT THEY FELT WERE THE MOST ENDANGERED PLACES ON THE EARTH THAT THEY NEEDED TO PROTECT.

>>LORENE: AND NOW WE'VE GOT AN ISSUE IN OUR STATE ABOUT THE ROADLESS RULE AND PEOPLE WANT TO SAY THROW IT OUT.

NO, WE HAVE TO HAVE SOME PLACES THAT ARE UNTOUCHED, THAT ARE PRESERVED FOR THE NATURAL FLORA AND FAUNA AND YOU'RE NOT PICKING UP CANDY WRAPPERS AND SYRINGES, ANY OF THAT STUFF, JUST PRESERVED FOREVER.

BUT ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU HAVE PRESERVED SO WELL WHEN YOU WERE AT THE EMBASSY IN NEW ZEALAND, YOU CURATED THE MOST WONDERFUL ART GALLERIES.

YOU BROUGHT IN ALL KINDS OF ARTISTS, AND IT WAS REALLY, REALLY WONDERFUL AND THAT'S ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO SEGUE FROM THAT INTO YOUR VISION OF MAORI ART AND ITS RELATION TO NATIVE AMERICAN ART HERE.

>>JILL: I THINK WHAT THE WORLD IS SEEING NOW IS A GROWING INTEREST IN INDIGENOUS ART FROM ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE WORLD-CLASS EXHIBITIONS, LIKE THE VENICE BIENNALE, INDIGENOUS ARTISTS ARE FINDING THEIR PLACE.

SO, WE TOOK TO THE RESIDENTS NATIVE AMERICAN ART, WHICH WE MIX WITH A ROTATING SHOW OF MAORI ARTISTS AND IT WAS INTENDED TO BE AN INDIGENOUS CONVERSATION.

>>LORENE: OH MY.

>>JILL: OFTEN PEOPLE WOULD COME, WE DID LOTS OF TOURS OF THE SOMETIMES PEOPLE WOULD COME OR OFTEN AND NOT BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MAORI ART AND THE NATIVE AMERICAN ART AND PART OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT INDIGENOUS ARTISTS BASE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE'S FEELING OF THEIR CONNECTION TO THE LAND, AND THIS IS UNIVERSAL.

AND IT COMES THROUGH IN THE ART, SO IN THAT SENSE YOU'VE FOUND THAT SAME CONNECTION TO THE LAND IN MAORI ART, NATIVE AMERICAN ART, AND INDIGENOUS ART ALL OVER THE WORLD.

>>LORENE: SO I WOULD LIKE YOU TO VENTURE, EITHER ONE OF YOU, A COMPARISON BETWEEN MAORI INDIGENOUS RIGHTS AND ADVOCACY AND NATIVE AMERICAN RIGHTS AND ADVOCACY IN THIS COUNTRY.

HOW ARE THE MAORI DOING?

>>TOM: WELL THE MAORI ARE 20% OF THE POPULATION.

THEY DON'T HAVE A CENSUS LIKE WE DO IN THE UNITED STATES, SO IF YOU ASK YOUNG PEOPLE, THEY IDENTIFY 33% WITH BEING MAORI, SO IT'S A VERY LARGE MINORITY AND ONE OF THE TOP LEADERS THERE TOLD ME, HE TRAVELED TO AMERICA AND WATCHED A LOT.

HE SAID, I WOULD VIEW IT THAT WE HAVE THE POWER AND THE FORCE OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY AND THE NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITY COMBINED, BECAUSE THAT'S ABOUT THE NUMBERS, IT'S UP ABOUT 20% AND THEY'RE A REAL FORCE.

THEY HAD, JUST LIKE WE HAD HERE, VARIOUS TREATY VIOLATIONS, MOST OF THEIR LAND WAS TAKEN AWAY, THEY ONLY HAVE 6% IN THEIR HANDS.

IT'S SLOWLY CHANGING, BUT ONE OF THE WONDERFUL THINGS TO SEE IS THAT THE LAST 50 YEARS THEY'VE BEEN ACTIVE, THEY'VE GAINED POWER, THEY'VE INSERTED MANY, MANY LAWS INTO THE UNWRITTEN AND THE WRITTEN CONSTITUTION AND THEY'VE GOT SOME REAL STRONG NORMS THERE WHERE THEY'RE RECOGNIZED AS A REAL FORCE.

>>JILL: I WAS GOING TO SAY THAT, AGAIN, ON THIS INDIGENOUS STRAIN, THE MAORI HAVE A LOT TO TEACH NATIVE AMERICANS AND VICE VERSA.

SO, JUST ABOUT A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, THERE WERE SOME MAORI TRIBAL PEOPLE WHO CAME TO TALK ABOUT THE WHANGANUI RIVER, WHICH IS A RIVER IN NEW ZEALAND.

TOM HAS ACTUALLY CANOED ON IT, SO HE CAN TELL YOU MORE ABOUT IT, BUT IT IS A RIVER THAT'S BEEN GIVEN PERSONHOOD AND THE NATIVE AMERICANS HERE IN NEW MEXICO WANT TO LEARN HOW THEY CAN DO THAT.

BECAUSE AGAIN, IT'S THIS CONNECTION WITH THE LAND THAT'S SO MUCH A PART OF THEIR IDENTITY AND WHO THEY ARE, AND THE RIVER AND THE WHANGANUI, TOM, YOU CAN TELL THEM ABOUT YOUR TRIP ON THE WHANGANUI.

>>TOM: YEAH, WELL, THIS PERSONHOOD FOR A RIVER IS ONE OF THE RARE THINGS THAT'S HAPPENED AROUND THE WORLD IN TERMS OF CONSERVATION, SO IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S VERY PRECIOUS.

AND I JUST SET A PRIORITY BECAUSE OF MY COOPERATION WITH MAORI AND BRINGING NATIVE AMERICANS OVER THAT I WAS GOING TO RUN THAT RIVER.

I WANTED JILL TO GO WITH ME, BUT IT ENDED UP HER NEPHEW WAS OVER, AND HE LOVES TO RAFT AND KAYAK, AND WE WENT TOGETHER.

SO, IT'S A WONDERFUL THING TO SEE BECAUSE THEY BASICALLY OWN IT ALL, IT'S WITHIN THEIR LAND AND THEY RUN ALL THE OUTFITTING, SO THE AREAS WHERE YOU STAY, THE PLACES WHERE YOU PUSH OFF, IT'S ALL RUN BY THE MAORI PEOPLE, WHICH IS PRETTY SPECIAL.

>>LORENE: AND IT'S PROTECTED BY THEM SO THAT NOBODY'S THROWING THEIR CANDY WRAPPER IN THE RIVER OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, THAT'S LOVELY.

>>TOM: YOU GET THAT RIGHT FROM THEM AS YOU'RE GOING DOWN THE RIVER.

THEY'RE VERY THOUGHTFUL ABOUT TELLING YOU WHAT THE TRADITION IS AND HOW TO APPROACH THINGS.

THERE WAS A MARAE, WHICH IS A COMMUNITY MEETING PLACE THAT WE VISITED, AND THEN THEY WOULD TELL US WHAT IS THE ETHIC OF HOW AND HOW DO YOU OBEY WHEN YOU COME INTO A MAORI MARAE.

>>LORENE: WELL, I WISH WE COULD GIVE PERSONHOOD TO OUR RIVERS, THEY'RE NOT JUST A COMMODITY TO BE USED, ESPECIALLY IN CLIMATE CHANGE AND DROUGHT, WE REALLY NEED TO GIVE THEM PERSONHOOD AND SAY, KIND OF, AS THEY'RE PARTS OF THE RIO GRANDE THAT WENT DRY, WHAT CAN WE DO TO HELP YOU, OH MIGHTY RIVER.

>>JILL: OR JUST ALL, NOT JUST CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT FARMING TECHNIQUES AND WATER ISSUES, THE SCARCITY OF WATER, HOW INDIGENOUS PEOPLE HAVE LEARNED TO DEAL WITH THESE, THEY'VE BEEN LIVING WITH IT THROUGH THEIR ANCESTORS FOREVER.

SO THERE'S A LOT THEY CAN LEARN AND THIS COOPERATION BETWEEN NATIVE AMERICANS AND THE MAORI IS JUST GROWING ALL THE TIME.

ON AN ARTS LEVEL, ON A COMMUNITY LEVEL, ON A MARKETING LEVEL, AND THEN THIS SORT OF CLIMATE CHANGE LEVEL AND NATURE LEVEL, SO IT'S REALLY BEEN IMPORTANT, THERE'S A LOT WE CAN LEARN.

AND BECAUSE THE MAORI IN NEW ZEALAND ARE SO MUCH MORE INFLUENTIAL IN COMMUNITY LIFE, WE SEE HOW MUCH THEY'VE CHANGED SOCIETY, WE NEED TO DO MORE OF THAT HERE.

>>LORENE: WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH FORMER AMBASSADOR TOM UDALL AND JILL COOPER UDALL.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE ONE ISSUE WHERE NEW MEXICO AND NEW ZEALAND COULD LEARN FROM EACH OTHER, AND THAT'S PROTECTING THE UNIQUE WILDLIFE.

BECAUSE THE UNIQUE BIRDS IN NEW ZEALAND, THE LITTLE BLUE PENGUIN, THE SPOONBILL WITH THE CRAZY HAIR, THE KAKAPO AND EVEN THE KIWI, THE SYMBOL OF NEW ZEALAND IS ENDANGERED AND WE HAVE THE ENDANGERED PRAIRIE CHICKEN, THE ENDANGERED SPOTTED OWL, THE WILLOW FLYCATCHER, AND CUCKOOS, I MEAN, WE HAVE A LOT OF ENDANGERED SPECIES.

I THINK YOU ALL, I THINK THE NEW ZEALANDERS ARE A LITTLE, WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM NEW ZEALAND ABOUT PROTECTING OUR BELOVED SPECIES?

>>TOM: WELL, LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE ISSUE THAT I WORKED ON IN MY LAST TWO YEARS OF THE SENATE, WHICH IS CALLED 30 BY 30, WHICH IS PROTECTING 30% OF THE LAND, 30% OF THE FRESHWATER AND LAKES, AND 30% OF THE MARINE ENVIRONMENT AND PRESIDENT BIDEN, WHEN WE DID THAT AS A LEGISLATIVE INITIATIVE, BUT HE DID IT AS AN EXECUTIVE ORDER.

WHEN I ARRIVED IN NEW ZEALAND, IT HAD ALREADY SPREAD AROUND THE WORLD AND WHAT HAPPENED IS THE NEW ZEALANDERS STOOD UP VERY PROUDLY AND SAID WE'VE ALREADY PROTECTED 30% OF OUR LAND, BUT WE'RE DOWN VERY LOW IN TERMS OF MARINE PROTECTION WITHIN THEIR TERRITORIAL WATERS, SO THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS WE TRIED TO WORK WITH THEM.

BUT THE KEY TO ALL THE SPECIES YOU TALKED ABOUT IS HAVING HABITAT AND THE WAY TO PROTECT HABITAT IS TO LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE.

AND AS JILL TALKED ABOUT EARLIER, THE HOTSPOTS, THE PLACES THAT HAVE THE MOST DIVERSITY, NEED TO BE PROTECTED.

>>JILL: BUT TELL THEM ABOUT STEWART ISLAND.

>>TOM: YEAH, WELL THIS IS AN EXAMPLE.

IF THERE ARE TWO BIG ISLANDS, NORTH ISLAND AND SOUTH ISLAND, AND THEN ON THE WAY TO ANTARCTICA, AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE SOUTH ISLAND, IS A SMALLER ISLAND CALLED STEWART ISLAND.

THEY'VE PROTECTED 95% OF THAT ISLAND.

>>LORENE: I IMAGINE THAT WOULD BE THE COASTS WHERE PEOPLE COME AND GO.

>>TOM: IT'S A BIG NATIONAL PARK, AND ONLY 400 PEOPLE LIVE ON THE ISLAND, IT'S GOOD-SIZED, AND IT IS VERY LOVED BY NEW ZEALANDERS TO GO DOWN THERE WHEN THEY HAVE SCHOOL BREAKS AND TAKE THEIR KIDS.

AND THEY HAVE ONE ISLAND BECAUSE THEY'RE TRYING TO KNOCK OUT THE PREDATORS ON THE BIRDS THAT THEY'VE ACTUALLY MANAGED TO KNOCK OUT ALL THE PREDATORS AND THEY ADVERTISE THAT.

THEY SAY, 'WE'RE TRYING TO DO THAT ON STEWART ISLAND, WE'RE TRYING TO DO IT ALL OVER NEW ZEALAND, BUT WE'VE ACTUALLY HAD SUCCESS ON THIS ISLAND.

>>LORENE: WELL, LET'S LOOK BACK AT THE HISTORY BECAUSE A KIWI IS A FLIGHTLESS BIRD AND HAD NO NATURAL PREDATORS UNTIL THE FOREIGNERS CAME WITH THEIR DOGS AND CATS AND FERRETS.

>>TOM: STOATS AND WEASELS, ALL OF THEM.

>>LORENE: BUT THESE WERE JUST LIKE THE LITTLE KIWI, WERE LIKE SITTING KIWIS, AND THEY HAD NO DEFENSE, THEY HAD NO WAY, THEY COULDN'T RUN FAST, IT WAS REALLY TRAGIC, SO THEY HAD TO MAKE PROTECTED AREAS.

AND I RECALL SOME OF THE FENCING OF AREAS AND THEN ALMOST LIKE CATTLE GUARDS TO KEEP ANY HOOFED OR ANY OTHER ANIMAL FROM GOING IN AND HAS THAT BEEN SUCCESSFUL?

>>JILL: DID YOU GO TO ZOOLANDIA?

>>LORENE: I WENT TO ZOOLANDIA.

ABSOLUTELY, IT'S RIGHT OUT NEAR WHERE MY DAUGHTER LIVES, AND OH, IT'S AMAZING, IT'S WONDERFUL, AND IT'S BIG.

>>JILL: PREDATOR-FREE.

>>TOM: THE WAY THEY KEEP IT PREDATOR FREE, THEY HAD TO PUT A FENCE AROUND MORE THAN A SQUARE MILE.

AND THEN IF YOU GO IN AS A HIKER AND TO SEE THE PLACE, THEY SEARCH YOUR BACKPACK, YOU HAVE TO ASSURE THEM... >>LORENE: NOT SMUGGLING A FERRET IN.

>>TOM: WELL, YOU NEVER KNOW, YOU KNOW, IF A MOUSE GETS INTO YOUR BACKPACK WHEN IT'S STORED IN THE GARAGE.

SO THEY'RE VERY, VERY CAREFUL AND EVEN DOING THAT, THEY STILL HAVE PREDATORS CREEP IN.

BUT THEY BROUGHT THAT BIRD LIFE, AS YOU SAW, THAT DRAMATICALLY.

>>JILL: DID YOU FIND THAT THAT WAS MORE GOVERNMENT OR THAT PRIVATE GROUP LIKE PHIL MEIER WHO MADE ZOOLANDIA, WHO MADE THE EFFORT, WAS IT A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC?

>>TOM: I THINK IT WAS A VERY STRONG PRIVATE EFFORT WITH GOVERNMENT HELP.

AND THIS IS THE PRESERVATION OF THE WILDLIFE IS A COUNTRYWIDE EFFORT BY THE GOVERNMENT AND ALL THE PARTIES SUPPORT IT.

THERE ARE DEBATES ABOUT, JUST LIKE OVER HERE, HOW MUCH SUPPORT AND SPECIFIC PARTS, BUT IN GENERAL, IT'S PART OF THE NEW ZEALAND BRAND.

THAT'S WHAT I WOULD SAY, PEOPLE KNOW NEW ZEALAND BECAUSE NEW ZEALAND LOVES ITS WILD AREAS, AND IT DOES EVERYTHING TO TRY TO PROTECT THEM.

DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T HAVE SOME CONSERVATION CHALLENGES.

>>LORENE: WELL EVEN RECENTLY OUR PRAIRIE CHICKEN HAS BEEN ENDANGERED, AND THEY HAVE THESE LEKS WHERE THEY DO THEIR LITTLE DANCE AND THEIR MATING DANCE.

IT ALL SHOULD BE PRESERVED, THEN VERY RECENTLY, THEY'VE TRIED TO TAKE THEM AWAY FROM THE THREATENED AND ENDANGERED SPECIES.

AND IT'S JUST LIKE THE PEOPLE WHO LOVE THEM JUST SAID, NO, NO, NO, NO, THEY HAVE TO HAVE THAT PROTECTION, OTHERWISE, YEAH, WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE THEM, THEY'RE TOO PRECIOUS TO US.

>>TOM: ONCE AGAIN, THE HABITAT WHERE THEY LIVE HAS TO BE PROTECTED.

SO, IT'S REALLY, THE HABITAT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT IS THEIR HOME.

>>LORENE: WELL, THE HABITAT WHERE THEY ARE, THE EAST SIDE OF NEW MEXICO, HAS A LOT OF OIL AND GAS DEVELOPMENT WHICH IS DESTROYING THEIR HABITAT.

AND SO IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT WE ALL NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO.

WHAT ELSE CAN NEW MEXICO LEARN FROM HOW NEW ZEALAND HAS HANDLED THINGS?

>>TOM: WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT, AND WE'VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE SHARING BACK AND FORTH, BUT WHEN I WAS FIRST ANNOUNCED BY PRESIDENT BIDEN THAT I WAS GOING DOWN, SO MANY TRIBES, I WAS THE VICE CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE INDIAN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE DOING ALL OF THAT WORK AND I'VE DONE THAT ALL DURING MY CONGRESSIONAL LIFE.

AND MANY CONTACTED ME AND SAID WE'VE GOT RELATIVES, WE'VE MADE TRIPS, WE'VE GOT EXCHANGES AND THINGS GOING ON AND WE WANT TO CONTINUE THOSE, AND WE WANT YOU TO HELP US.

THERE WERE ALREADY PROGRAMS IN PLACE AND THINGS THAT WERE OCCURRING AND I KIND OF PUSHED THE ENVELOPE ON THOSE.

JILL'S HELPED IN PARTICULAR, VERY MUCH SO, ON ALL THE TRIPS THAT WE WENT ON THAT WE BOTH ENJOYED SEEING THAT.

BUT THEN WITH ART, WITH THE ARTISTIC EXCHANGE WHERE PEOPLE WOULD COME AND SEE THAT AND SHARE.

>>LORENE: AND I THINK NOTHING COMMUNICATES LIKE ART.

>>JILL: NO, ONE OF THE PROJECTS I DIDN'T FINISH, AND IT STILL MIGHT HAPPEN, IS TO SEND A SMALL O'KEEFFE EXHIBIT TO NEW ZEALAND TO SHOW WITH STRONG NEW ZEALAND WOMEN ARTISTS, OF WHICH THEY'RE VERY PROUD.

I MEAN, THE NEW ZEALAND WOMEN'S ART COMMUNITY AND THEIR LITERARY COMMUNITY IS, I MEAN, NEW ZEALAND, OF COURSE, BEING THE PLACE WHERE WOMEN GOT THE VOTE FIRST.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>TOM: IN THE WHOLE WORLD.

>>LORENE: IN THE WHOLE WORLD, BRAVA.

>>JILL: SO THEY'VE BEEN VERY, VERY STRONG ON WOMEN ARTISTS, WOMEN POLITICIANS, WOMEN DOING THINGS IN GOVERNMENT.

SO THE ART THING, IF WE CAN MAKE THIS HAPPEN, IT'S BEING DISCUSSED, BUT IT WOULD BE A WONDERFUL COUP FOR NEW MEXICO TO HAVE THEIR OWN GEORGIA O'KEEFE, SO TO SPEAK, COME TO NEW ZEALAND.

>>LORENE: OH, THAT WOULD INDEED.

WELL, LET'S WORK ON THAT, THAT WOULD BE JUST WONDERFUL.

>>TOM: AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE COULD LEARN ABOUT IS WOMEN BEING IN ELECTIVE OFFICE AND PLAYING A BIG ROLE.

THEIR PARLIAMENT IS A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF WOMEN, THEY'VE HAD THREE WOMEN PRIME MINISTERS, THE LAST ONE IS A ROCK STAR INTERNATIONALLY WITH THIS BOOK SHE'S COME OUT WITH JACINDA ARDERN ABOUT COMPASSIONATE LEADERSHIP, HER SAYING USED TO BE TO EVERYBODY WHEN SHE'D FINISH A SPEECH, BE KIND.

>>LORENE: WELL, I WILL TELL YOU SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT KIND, THAT WAS FORMIDABLE.

I SAW AN ALL-WOMEN HAKA, HAKA IS THE WAR DANCE.

>>JILL: OH, NOT KIND.

>>LORENE: YES, AND THEY WERE FEROCIOUS, AND I THOUGHT, OH, I DON'T THINK THERE'S A LOT OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE WITH THESE WOMEN, BECAUSE THEY WERE FORMIDABLE.

>>TOM: WELL, THERE'S A WELCOMING CEREMONY AND A HAKA, BOTH OF THOSE ARE VERY WARLIKE, BUT THEY'RE MEANT FOR BOTH SIDES THAT SEE THEM TO RECOGNIZE EACH OTHER AS INDIVIDUALS AND AS SOVEREIGN GROUPS.

AND THEN IF THERE'S NOTHING AGGRESSIVE DONE, THEN YOU'RE WELCOMED AND YOU TOUCH THE NOSE AND FOREHEAD TOGETHER, BREATHE OUT ONE BREATH AND THEN YOU BECOME FRIENDS FOREVER ON THEIR LAND AND IN THEIR PLACES.

SO IT IS VERY SCARY, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THE FRIENDSHIP AND THE KINDNESS YOU SEE AFTERWARDS IS VERY SPECIAL.

>>JILL: AND THE WELCOMING CEREMONIES ALWAYS INCLUDED A SONG, SO THE MAORI WOULD SING TO US AND THEN OUR STAFF, WE WOULD HAVE TO SING SOMETHING BACK TO THEM.

>>LORENE: WHAT WOULD THEY SING BACK?

>>JILL: WELL, THEY WOULD SING SOMETHING THAT WENT, TOKU, IT ENDED WITH TOKU TOKU REO, IT'S ALL I REMEMBER OF IT.

WE STARTED LEARNING THAT ONE.

>>TOM: BASICALLY THE TRANSLATION IS SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES... >>JILL: FAITH AND LOVE.

>>TOM: FAITH AND LOVE, WE ARE ALL FRIENDS, WE ALL NEED TO WORK TOGETHER AND THE SCHOOL CHILDREN SING THAT SONG.

>>JILL: BUT ALWAYS A SONG.

>>TOM: AND THEY FINISH AFTER ALL THE CEREMONY AND THE TALKING, THEY FINISH WITH THE SONGS AND IT'S JUST, IT'S A WONDERFUL THING TO SEE THAT WELCOME.

AND WHENEVER WE WENT ANYPLACE, WE WENT TO THE MAORI LAND FIRST, AND THEIR MAURI, THE SMALL LITTLE MAURI, IN MANY CASES SMALLER PIECES OF LAND.

BUT THEY WOULD GIVE A WELCOMING CEREMONY, AND THEN THEY WOULD COOK US A MEAL CALLED A HANGI.

>>JILL: THE WHANGANUI RIVER PEOPLE, WHO WERE HERE AT EVERY MEETING WE SAW THEM AT, THEY WOULD SING, I MEAN THAT'S PART OF THE TRADITION.

IF PEOPLE ASK WHAT YOU MISS MOST ABOUT NEW ZEALAND.

>>LORENE: THAT WAS MY NEXT QUESTION.

>>JILL: WELL, I WAS GOING TO SAY BIRD SONG, BUT THEN WE HAVE SO MANY BIRDS IN OUR YARD, I CAN'T SAY I MISS THAT.

BUT NOW I'M MISSING THE PEOPLE SONG, THE FACT THAT PEOPLE TAKE THE TIME, THAT SINGING TO EACH OTHER IS A WAY OF GREETING AND WELCOMING AND MAKING FRIENDS, IT'S A NICE TRADITION.

>>LORENE: THAT'S BEAUTIFUL.

>>JILL: SO IF YOU CAN IMAGINE EVERY PLACE YOU GO, STANDING UP AND YOU SING A SONG AND THEN THEY SING A SONG BACK TO YOU.

>>LORENE: I WOULD LOVE THAT, YEAH, YEAH.

SO WHAT I WANTED TO ASK YOU WAS, WHAT DO YOU MISS, WHAT DO YOU MISS MOST ABOUT NEW ZEALAND AND THEN WHEN YOU WERE THERE, WHAT DID YOU MISS MOST ABOUT BEING HOME, THE LAND OF ENCHANTMENT.

>>TOM: WELL, JILL, DO YOU WANT TO START WITH THAT ONE?

NO, NO, WELL, I CAN TELL YOU WHAT I DIDN'T MISS, BECAUSE THE TELEVISION AND THE INTENSE EFFORT THAT I ALWAYS HAD TO HAVE SOME ATTENTION ON AND THE SOCIAL MEDIA AND ALL OF THAT, I WAS ABLE TO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL STAFF THAT WOULD DEAL WITH ALL OF THAT.

SO THEY WERE TRAINED TO PUT OUT THE IMAGE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, AND THEY DID IT IN BOTH SAMOA AND NEW ZEALAND.

AND THEY HAVE TWO NAMES, NEW ZEALAND'S KNOWN AS NEW ZEALAND AOTEAROA, THAT'S THE OTHER NAME, THE LAND OF THE LONG WHITE CLOUD, BECAUSE THAT'S APPARENTLY THE WORD THAT THEY GAVE IT WHEN THEY WERE THE FIRST PEOPLE COMING AND THEY CALLED IT THE LAND OF THE LONG WHITE CLOUD.

AND WHEN YOU'RE WAY OFF FROM NEW ZEALAND, YOU ACTUALLY SEE A WHITE CLOUD OVER EVERYTHING.

BUT JILL, ANYTHING I MISSED?

>>JILL: I WAS JUST THINKING THAT THING THAT SURPRISED ME THE MOST, THAT THIS IS A COUNTRY THAT HAD BEEN COMPLETELY UNINHABITED UNTIL ABOUT 900 YEARS AGO, WITH THE MAORI ARRIVED FROM PLACES AROUND THE PACIFIC IN THEIR WAKA, THEIR CANOES AND SETTLED THERE AND IT WAS ALL QUITE PEACEFUL, THOUGH THEY FOUGHT AMONG THEMSELVES.

BUT THE BRITISH AND THE OTHER SETTLERS DIDN'T REALLY START COMING EN MASSE UNTIL THE MIDDLE OF THE 1800S, SO THAT EVERYTHING IS SO NEW.

SO EVEN THE OLD ANTIQUITY IN NEW ZEALAND IS 900 YEARS OLD, CERTAINLY THE WESTERN HISTORY WITH NEW ZEALAND OF EUROPEAN SETTLERS, 150 YEARS OLD, 200 YEARS OLD, IT'S REALLY NEW.

SO, IT'S A LEARNING CURVE IN A WAY TO ALSO DISCOVER THAT THE ANTI-COLONIAL FEELINGS WERE ALWAYS BUBBLING AT THE SURFACE.

IT IS THE UNDERLYING ISSUE JUST AS WE ARE HERE WITH NATIVE AMERICANS, THE FACT OF YOUNG PEOPLE BEING SENT TO BOARDING SCHOOLS, YOUNG MAORI GIRLS WERE SENT TO BOARDING SCHOOLS THE SAME WAY.

IT'S THE TENSION BETWEEN WANTING TO COLONIZE THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AND THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE HANGING ON TO THEIR OWN WAYS.

>>LORENE: YOU'RE BRACING TO SAY SOMETHING, AND WE ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS.

>>TOM: OK, THE VIBRANCY OF THEIR DEMOCRACY AND IT'S A SMALL COUNTRY, FIVE MILLION PEOPLE, BUT I REALLY MISS THAT, I USED TO WATCH QUESTION HOUR EVERY WEEK ON TUESDAY, WHERE THE PRIME MINISTER AND ALL OF HIS OTHER MINISTERS HAVE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS IN THE PARLIAMENT, JUST LIKE THEY DO IN ENGLAND.

SO, I MISS THE VIBRANCY, WE HAVE SUCH A BIG COMPLICATED COMPLEX COUNTRY.

>>LORENE: WE DO, BUT YOU HAVE SHONE LIGHT ON OUR COUNTRY AND NEW ZEALAND, IT'S BEEN SUCH A PLEASURE.

OUR GUESTS TODAY ARE FORMER AMBASSADOR TOM UDALL AND JILL COOPER UDALL.

THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU DID THERE, AND WELCOME BACK, AND PERHAPS YOU CAN COME ON AND LET US KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO WORK ON WHILE YOU'RE HERE, UNTIL THEN, YOU GET TO RELAX AND REST AND ACCEPT OUR THANKS.

>>JILL: THANK YOU, WE LOVED SEEING YOUR FAMILY THERE.

>>LORENE: OH, I KNOW IT WAS SO SWEET, AND THEY SEND THEIR LOVE.

>>TOM: WE'RE STAYING VERY BUSY, BELIEVE ME.

>>LORENE: I BET YOU ARE, I BET YOU ARE, AND WHEN YOU WANT TO COME AND TALK ABOUT THAT, PLEASE COME BACK.

>>TOM: OKAY, THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: THANK YOU BOTH.

I'M LORENE MILLS.

I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON A VERY SPECIAL EDITION OF REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

♪ MUSIC