>>> TURNING NOW TO THE U.S. AND THE MATERNAL MORTALITY CRISIS FACING BLACK WOMEN WHO ARE THREE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE FROM PREGNANCY-RELATED COMPLICATIONS.

LAST MONTH OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST TORI BOWIE DIED FROM CHILDBIRTH COMPLICATIONS WITH SHE WAS EIGHT MONTHS PREGNANT.

JOURNALISM PROFESSOR LINDA VILLAROSA INVESTIGATES THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN RACE AND HEALTH IN HER BOOK "UNDER THE SKIN."

SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> LIKEWISE.

ALTHOUGH I AM SORRY ABOUT WHY WE'RE TALKING TODAY.

YOU ARE A RECOGNIZED AUTHORITY IN SCIENCE JOURNALISM ON THE ISSUE OF MATERNAL HEALTH AND BLACK MATERNAL HEALTH IN PARTICULAR.

WHEN YOU HEARD ABOUT THE DEATH OF THE OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST TORI BOWIE, WHO WAS, YOU KNOW, EIGHT MONTHS PREGNANT, 32 YEARS OLD, JUST, YOU KNOW, JUST A REALLY DISTURBING STORY, YOU WAS CURIOUS WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND.

>> I WAS HEARTBROKEN.

I FELT SO SAD FOR DAYS, REALLY.

AND ESPECIALLY BECAUSE I AM A BIG FAN OF TRACK AND FEEL.

I REMEMBER HER IN THE 4x100 METERS RELAY WHEN THEY WON THE OLYMPIC MED IN 2016.

BUT ALSO IT GETS TIRING AND HEARING THESE STATISTICS ABOUT BLACK MATERNAL MORTALITY.

>> SPEAKING OF THE OLYMPICS, YOU KNOW, THREE OF THE FOUR MEMBERS OF THAT RELAY TEAM, IT EMERGES, ALL THIS COMPLICATIONS DURING PREGNANCY OR GIVING BIRTH.

WHAT DO WE MAKE OF THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT JUST SPEAKS TO HOW COMMON THIS IS AMONG BLACK WOMEN.

AND ALSO IT SPEAKS TO REALLY GETTING RID OF THE MYTH THAT IT'S ALL RELATED TO POVERTY OR IT'S ALL THE WOMEN'S FAULT, THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT HAS BEEN GROWING AND IS AT A CRISIS STAGE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK PEOPLE REMEMBER IS A PIECE YOU WROTE IN 2018 WHERE YOU POINTED OUT THAT THE THINKING HAD BEEN THAT THIS IS A POVERTY ISSUE, THIS IS JUST, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO HAVE POOR DIET OR POOR ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE.

YOUR REPORTING AND THE RESEARCH DONE BY MANY IN THE MEDICAL FIELD, THAT'S NOT THE CASE WHEN IT COMES TO BLACK WOMEN.

THAT'S NOT THE RELEVANT FACTOR.

COULD YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?

WHY IS RACE SO POWERFUL OF AN INDICATOR WHEN IT COMES TO PREGNANCY COMPLICATIONS AND OR MATERNAL MORTALITY AND INFANT MORTALITY?

>> I WANT TO STATE THAT POVERTY MAKES EVERYTHING WORSE.

BUT POVERTY IS NOT THE ONLY REASON FOR BLACK WOMEN'S MATERNAL MORTALITY.

AND I THINK I WAS REALLY SHOCKED WHEN I HEARD THE STATISTIC THAT EVEN A BLACK BIRTHING PERSON WITH A COLLEGE DEGREE OR EVEN AN ADVANCED DEGREE IS MORE LIKELY TO DIE OR ALMOST DIE IN CHILDBIRTH THAN A WHITE WOMAN WHO HASN'T FINISHED HIGH SCHOOL.

AND NOW EVEN NEWER RESEARCH SPEAKS TO WEALTH.

SO IT USED TO BE JUST EDUCATION, DIFFERENCES, BUT NOW ANSWER WEALTHY BLACK FAMILIES ARE MORE LIKELY TO LOSE A MOTHER DURING PREGNANCY, CHILDBIRTH AND THE TIME AFTER.

SO THAT IS SURPRISING.

IT WAS SURPRISING TO ME.

IT STILL SORT OF GIVES ME GOOSE BUMPS IN A BAD WAY.

>> WELL, ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WE KNOW THIS IS THAT PEOPLE ARE BECOMING MORE VOCAL ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES IN CHILDBIRTH.

VERY FAMOUS WOMEN LIKE SERENA WILLIAMS, BEYONCE, ANOTHER TRACK AND FIELD STAR, ALLYSON FELIX HAVE SHARED SOME VERY DISTURBING STORIES ABOUT EXPERIENCES THAT THEY HAD, IN SOME CASES NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES DURING CHILDBIRTH.

ARE THERE THROUGH LINES HERE?

>> ALLYSON FELIX AND TORI BOWIE HAD PREECLAMPSIA, WHICH THEN BECAME FOR TORI PREECLAMPSIA, WHICH IS A SEVERE, THE SEVERE EXIST FORM OF PREECLAMPSIA.

AND BLACK WOMEN ARE 60% MORE LIKELY TO HAVE PREECLAMPSIA AND ALSO TO HAVE THE MOST SEVERE FORM.

AND THAT IS ALSO TRANSCENDS RACE.

IT ALSO TRANSCENDS CLASS LINES.

SO I THINK THAT IS ALARMING.

ALLYSON FELIX ALSO HAD PREECLAMPSIA AND HAD A VERY LOW BIRTH WEIGHT BABY WHO WAS IN NICU AFTER BIRTH.

I READ AN ESSAY BY HER.

SHE DID EVERYTHING RIGHT.

SHE HAD PRENATAL CARE, KNEW WHAT TO DO TO KEEP HERSELF HEALTHY IN PREGNANCY BUT STILL HAD A TRAGIC BIRTH OUTCOME.

THAT SPEAKS TO BEYOND POVERTY AND BEYOND ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT I THINK YOUR REPORTING AND THAT OF OTHERS HAS POINTED OUT IS THAT THESE OUTCOMES ARE GETTING WORSE.

WHY ARE THESE -- DO THESE RACIAL DISPARITIES EXIST AND WHY IS IT GETTING WORSE?

>> I AM GOING SAY ONE THING IS THE DATA HAS GOTTEN BETTER.

EVEN WHEN I WAS FIRST REPORTING IN 2018.

COVID MADE THINGS WORSE AS FAR AS IN THE COUNTRY.

BUT ALSO BECAUSE WE DON'T -- THE REASONS FOR BLACK MATERNAL MORTALITY AND FOR THE GAP THAT TRANSCENDS CLASS AND EDUCATION WERE NOT SURE HOW TO COMBAT IT.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE IT HAS TO DO WITH TOXIC STRESS IN SOCIETY.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, HAVING BETTER ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE IS ALWAYS GOOD.

IT ALWAYS HELPS.

BUT IT HASN'T CLOSED THE GAP IN THIS CASE.

>> WHAT COULD YOU MEAN BY TOXIC STRESS AND WHAT ROLE YOU THINK THAT PLAYS OR THE RESEARCH INDICATES THAT THAT PLAYS.

>> HOW I LIKE TO FRAME IT IS THROUGH THE LENS THAT ARLENE GERONIMUS USES, A RESEARCHER, PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN.

SHE CALLS IT WEATHERING.

AND HER THEORY IS THAT THE LIVED EXPERIENCE OF BEING BLACK IN AMERICA, ESPECIALLY A BLACK WOMAN, CAUSES A KIND OF TOXIC STRESS THAT COMES -- BECOMES FULL BLOWN DURING BIRTH WHICH IS A STRESS TEST FOR THE BODY.

AND SO THEN YOU SEE THESE POOR BIRTH OUTCOMES BECAUSE OF THE DAY IN, DAY OUT BATTLING DISCRIMINATION.

>> I AM MINDFUL OF THE FACT THAT THE DOCTOR THAT YOU MENTIONED WAS SO FAR AHEAD OF HER TIME.

IN FACT, YOU REPORTED ON THIS.

SHE ACTUALLY GOT DEATH THREATS FOR HER WORK.

HAVING SAID THAT, HOW DO WE IDENTIFY THAT AS SORT OF AN ATMOSPHERIC CONDITION AS OPPOSED TO SOMETHING GENETIC.

>> THERE WAS SOME VERY GOOD DATA AND RESEARCH A COUPLE OF DECADES AGO THAT DISPROVED THE GENETIC CAUSE.

THEY LOOKED AT FIRST-GENERATION AFRICAN AMERICAN IMMIGRANTS FROM SOME OF THE POOREST COUNTRIES, WHITE WOMEN FROM EUROPE, WHITE WOMEN FROM AMERICA AND BLACK WOMEN FROM AMERICA.

SO ALL THREE GROUPS HAD NORMAL BIRTH WEIGHT BABIES EXCEPT THE OF A OF WOMEN.

THEIR BABIES WERE SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER.

THEN THEY LOOKED AT THE NEXT GENERATION.

SO ONE GENERATION LATER THEY LOOKED AT THE BIRTH WEIGHTS OF THE BABIES AGAIN AND THE WHITE BABIES FROM EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAD ACTUALLY GOTTEN A LITTLE LARGER.

THE WHITE AMERICAN BABIES WERE THE SAME.

BASICALLY, NORMAL BIRTH WEIGHT.

THE BLACK WOMEN, BLACK AMERICAN WOMEN'S BABIES WERE SMALL BUT NOW IN ONE GENERATION THE WOMEN WHO WERE AFRICAN IMMIGRANTS SOME OF THE POOREST COUNTRIES IN THE CARIBBEAN AND AFRICA, THEIR BABIES MATCHED AFRICAN AMERICAN.

AND -- AND BABY.

AND WHAT I REMEMBER ABOUT THAT DATA IT WAS BY INTO THESE TWO WONDERFUL RESEARCHERS FROM CHICAGO.

I HAVE INTERVIEWED A LOT OF SCIENTISTS AND RESEARCHERS AND THEY DON'T SAY THINGS THAT ARE KIND OF OUTRAGEOUS.

THEY ARE MORE CONSERVATIVE.

I REMEMBER THEY SAID SOMETHING ABOUT BEING BLACK IN AMERICA, BLACK WOMAN, IS BAD FOR YOUR BODY AND BAD FOR YOUR BABY AND THAT THING IS RACISM.

>> THE STATES WITH THE HIGHEST MATERNAL MORTALITY RATES ARE ALL IN THE SOUTH.

AND THAT JUST -- I HAVE TO WONDER IF THAT MEANS AGO.

ARKANSAS, MISSISSIPPI, TENNESSEE, ALABAMA, LOUISIANA.

DOES THAT MEAN SOMETHING?

>> THESE ARE THE STATES THAT HAVE BEEN UNDERFUNDED, LEFT BEHIND.

MANY TIMES THEY HAVE THE POOREST, AS WE CALL, SOCIAL DETERMINATES OF HEALTH.

THE ENVIRONMENTS ARE OFTEN POLLUTED.

THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS OFTEN TO HEALTHY WATER.

LOOK AT MISSISSIPPI AS AN EXAMPLE.

THAT'S WHERE TORI BOWIE WAS BORN AND RAISED AND WENT TO COLLEGE.

AND THAT HAS THE HIGHEST RATE OF INFANT MORTALITY.

IT HAS AMONG THE HIGHEST MATERNAL MORTALITY.

IT HAS THE HIGHEST RATE OF CHILD MORTALITY.

IT'S THE POOREST STATE AND HAS THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF BLACK PEOPLE.

MOST BLACK PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY LIVE IN THE SOUTH.

SO YOU HAVE A WHOLE BUNCH OF FACTORS ALL COMING TOGETHER.

AND SO I THINK IT'S NOT SURPRISING.

IT'S ALSO THE STATE WHERE THE DOBBS DECISION HAPPENED.

SO IT WAS THE END OF REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE IN THIS STATE.

SO IT MADE THINGS WORSE.

I AM NOT SURPRISED, BUT I AM SADDENED.

MY FAMILY CAME UP FROM MISSISSIPPI TO CHICAGO.

MY GRANDPARENTS AND ALL THEIR SIBLINGS.

AND SO IT MAKES ME SAD THAT MISSISSIPPI, ESPECIALLY, BUT SO MUCH OF THE SOUTH HAS BEEN LEFT BEHIND.

>> HOW DID YOU GET INTERESTED IN THIS, IF YOU DON'T MIND MY ASKING?

>> I GOT INTERESTED WHEN I HEARD THOSE STATISTICS AND I -- AND WAS READY IN WEATHERING AS WELL BECAUSE I WANTED TO HAVE A FRAME FOR THIS.

I ALSO THOUGHT ABOUT MY OWN BIRTH.

I WAS LIKE ALLYSON FELIX.

I DID EVERYTHING RIGHT.

I WAS THE HEALTH EDITOR OF "ESSENCE" MAGAZINE.

I WAS THE POSTER CHILD OF GOOD HEALTH, TRYING TO BE.

AND I WAS REALLY SURPRISED IN MY SECOND TRIMESTER THAT MY DOCTOR TOLD ME MY BABY WAS NOT THRIVING INSIDE.

AND I WENT TO A SPECIALIST WHO WAS ASKING ME ALL KINDS YOU HAVE QUESTIONS LIKE DO YOU USE DRUGS, DO YOU EAT, YOU KNOW, LIKE EVERY KIND OF UNHEALTHY FOOD, DO YOU DRINK, AND ALL THESE QUESTIONS.

THEN I FINALLY ASKED MY REGULAR OB/GYN WHY WOULD I BE ASKED THREE QUESTIONS?

SHE SAID YOU HAVE INTRAUTERINE GROWTH RESTRICTION, WHICH HAPPENS TO PEOPLE WHO ARE MUCH LESS HEALTHY THAN YOU OR WHO ARE USING DRUGS AND ALCOHOL DURING PREGNANCY.

SO MY BABY WAS JUST SHORT OF PRE-TERM.

I HELD HER IN SO SHE WAS NOT PRE-TERM.

BUT SHE WAS LOW BIRTH WEIGHT AND SHE WEIGHED 4 POUNDS 13 OUNCES.

SHE COULD FIT IN THE PALM OF MY HAND.

SHE IS DOWNSTAIRS NOW WORKING AND IS A HEALTHY YOUNG ADULT.

BUT I ALWAYS WONDERED WHY WOULD THAT HAPPEN TO ME.

ONCE I GOT THE EXPLANATION FOR WEATHERING AND I UNDERSTOOD THAT, THEN I THOUGHT, OH, I WONDER IF THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED TO ME AND MY BABY.

>> AND I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING YOU SAID ABOUT THE WAY THAT YOU WERE SORT OF INTERROGATED.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU POINTED OUT IN YOUR REPORTING AND OTHERS HAVE AS WELL IS THAT IT'S NOT JUST THIS SORT OF THE ASSUMPTION THAT BLACK WOMEN ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG, LIKE THEY ARE EATING THE WRONG THINGS, DRINKING TOO MUCH, ET CETERA, BUT IT'S ALSO THE NOT BEING LISTENED TO.

AND I JUST -- CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT WHAT ROLE THAT PLAYS?

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT MAYBE PEOPLE REMEMBER IF THEY FOLLOW SERENA WILLIAMS' STORY.

SHE IS A WORLD CLASS ATHLETE WHO PRESUMABLY KNOWS HER BODY VERY WELL.

WHEN SHE TRIED INDICATE TO HER DOCTORS SOMETHING WAS WRONG AND SHE SUSPECTED WHAT IT WAS, THEY DIDN'T LISTEN TO HER.

>> I AM SURPRISED HOW OFTEN THAT HAPPENS.

ONE OF THE STATISTICS THAT STRUCK ME INITIALLY WAS THAT BLACK WOMEN ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO MEET THE PERSON DELIVERING THEIR BABY FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS WHEN THEY ARE DELIVERING THE BABY.

SO THAT SPEAKS TO WHAT SORT OF LACK OF CONSISTENCY IN HEALTH CARE.

ALSO EVEN WHEN YOU ARE SERENA WILLIAMS, WHO KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH HER, TRIED TO COMMUNICATE WITH PHYSICIANS ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH HER, AND WASN'T LISTENED TO INITIALLY.

SO THAT SPEAKS TO SOMETHING MUCH WORSE THAT'S GOING ON.

I THINK IN GENERAL OVERALL I THINK OF THE CASE OF DR. SUSAN MOORE.

IT'S NOT RELATED TO PREGNANCY.

SHE WAS A BLACK WOMAN WHO WENT INTO THE HOSPITAL WITH COVID IN 2021.

SHE WAS A PHYSICIAN HERSELF.

SHE TRIED TO SPEAK TO HER CAREGIVERS ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH HER BODY.

SHE WASN'T LISTENED TO.

SHE MADE A VIDEO OF HERSELF FROM HER HOSPITAL BED AND SPOKE ABOUT THAT AND THE REFRAIN THROUGHOUT HER VIDEO WAS, THIS IS HOW BLACK PEOPLE GET KILLED.

AND THEN SHE DID DIE OF COVID.

IN THE INVESTIGATION OF THE HOSPITAL SYSTEM IN -- IT WAS IN INDIANA, THEY -- ONE OF THE REASONS THEY POINTED TO WAS THEY -- SOME OF THE PROVIDERS THAT WERE CARING FOR HER FELT LIKE INTIMIDATED BY HER MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE BECAUSE SHE WAS A DOCTOR, SAYING PLEASE, THIS IS KIND OF CARE I NEED.

SO THAT SPEAKS TO NOT BEING LISTENED TO, THAT CAN TURN OUT TO BE DEADLY.

>> AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT THAT'S NOT -- THAT, YOU KNOW, EDUCATION IS NOT PROTECTIVE IN THE WAY THAT YOU MIGHT THINK THAT IT WOULD BE.

YOU THINK SOMEBODY WHO CAN SPEAK TO MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS ON THEIR LEVEL WOULD BE LISTENED TO.

IS THERE ANY -- I DON'T KNOW.

EXPLANATION FOR THAT?

>> I THINK PART OF IT IS A STAY TYPE FLOATING AROUND FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

THE ANGRY BLACK WOMAN.

WHEN WE ARE SPEAKING WITH AUTHORITY OR SPEAKING -- TRYING TO BE ASSERTIVE, IT SOUNDS TO OTHERS ANGRY BECAUSE OF THE STEREOTYPE THAT WE'RE OFTEN ANGRY.

SOMETIMES I SHOW A CARTOON OF SERENA WILLIAMS, YOU KNOW, SEVERAL YEARS AGO SHE WAS PLAYING IN THE U.S. OPEN AND SHE PUSHED BACK AGAINST A CALL.

THERE WAS A CARTOON THAT RAN SHORTLY AFTER OF HER LOOKING COMPLETELY CRAZY, SUPER ANGRY, JUST REALLY OUT OF CONTROL.

AND I THOUGHT, IF THAT IS THE EMMAGE OF HER THAT IS INTERNATIONAL, THEN WHEN SHE GETS INTO HER HOSPITAL ROOM AND SHE STARTS TALKING ABOUT ACTUALLY THIS IS WHAT I HAVE, I HAVE A PULMONARY IM BOWLISM, THIS IS WHAT I NEED, SHE IS SOUNDING ANGRY AND NOT LISTENED TO.

>> YOU MENTIONED KIND OF HAUNTED BY DEATH OF TORI BOWIE FOR DAYS.

I AM WONDERING IF THERE IS ANYTHING WE CAN POINT TO THAT OFFERS SOME HOPE IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS?

>> WHEN I SAW THAT SHE HAD DIED OF RESPIRATORY DISTRESS, I THOUGHT OF THE PHRASE, I CAN'T BREATHE.

GEORGE FLOYD'S WORDS THAT BECAME A RALLYING CRY FOR RACIAL JUSTICE IN THIS COUNTRY.

I AM A REALLY HOPEFUL PERSON AND I LOOK AT THE WAY MEDICAL STUDENTS, MIDWIFERY STUDENTS, NURSING STUDENTS ARE TRYING TO BE MUCH MORE BIRTH JUSTICE AND SOCIAL JUSTICE ORIENTED.

SO THE PROVIDERS THAT ARE WORKING WITH BLACK BIRTHING PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO DO BETTER.

WITH MY BOOK I TRAVELED AROUND THE COUNTRY TO A LOT OF MEDICAL SCHOOLS AND I HAVE BEEN REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THEIR WILLINGNESS TO THINK DIFFERENTLY, TO WANT TO BE DIFFERENT KINDS OF PROVIDESERS.

I THINK OF DOULA CARE.

IT USED TO BE SOMETHING THAT WAS ONLY FOR THE PRIVILEGED.

MANY DOULAS, INCLUDING THE ONES I WROTE ABOUT IN 2018, THE DOULA COLLECTIVE, ARE MUCH MORE BIRTH JUSTICE ORIENTED, WORK WITH PEOPLE ON SLIDING SCALE.

SOME STATES COVER DOULA COVERAGE -- COVER DOULA SERVICES FOR OFTEN THE MOST POOR WOMEN OR WOMEN WHO NEED IT MOST.

SO A DOULA CAN BE WHEN YOU WHEN YOU ARE BIRTHING TO BE YOUR EYES AND EARS.

WHEN I WAS RECOVERING MATERNAL MORTALITY IN 2018 IT WAS REALLY THE DOULA THAT SAVED THE BIRTHING PERSON'S LIFE THAT I WATCHED.

AND WAS THE HERO OF THE STORY.

THOSE KIND OF THINGS MAKE ME MORE HOPEFUL.

>> I WONDER IF THE END OF NATIONWIDE ACCESS TO ABORTION CARE WILL HAVE AN IMPACT.

I MEAN, BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY, THE PROPONENTS OF THESE RESTRICTIONS BELIEVED THAT THEY ARE IN THE SERVICE OF PRESERVING LIFE AND JUST WONDERING IF WHAT YOU SEE IN THE LANDSCAPE?

>> WELL, I THINK THE ABORTION IS PART OF A PACKAGE OF REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE.

SO THAT MEANS PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY AND EVERYWHERE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE A CHILD SO YOU CAN'T BE STERILIZED AGAINST YOUR WILL OR WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT.

SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT NOT TO HAVE A CHILD, SO THAT MEANS ABORTION CARE SHOULD BE NATIONAL.

IT SHOULD BE A FEDERAL LAW.

AND BIRTH CONTROL SHOULD BE AFFORDABLE AND EASILY ACCESS BE.

AND THEN THE THIRD PART OF REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE IS THE RIGHT TO RAISE A CHILD IN A SAFE AND HEALTHY ENVIRONMENT IF YOU GET RID OF ABORTION CARE, AND YOU DON'T HAVE REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE.

SO PEOPLE THAT ARE AGAINST ABORTION AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S PART OF A BIGGER PACKAGE.

YOU HAVE TO ALSO CARE ABOUT MOTHERS AND BABIES.

>> I KIND OF AM THINKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT THERE HAS BEEN SUCH A BACKLASH AGAINST LOOKING AT ANYTHING IN A SYSTEMIC WAY.

IN SOME PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

I KNOW A LOT OF ATTENTION HAS BEEN ON SORT OF BOOK BANS AND KIR I CAN LA IN THE, SAY, K THROUGH 12 YEARS.

IT MAKES SHE WONDER.

IF THERE IS SO MUCH RESISTANCE TO THINKING IN SYSTEMIC TERMS, HOW DOES THIS GET ADDRESSED?

>> I HAVE DONE GRAND ROUNDS AT SEVERAL HOSPITALS, INCLUDING THE HOSPITAL WHERE MY CHILDREN WERE BORN, THE OB/GYN DEPARTMENT.

I DON'T GO IN SAYING I THINK YOU ARE ALL RACIST.

I GO IN SAYING WE HAVE A SYSTEMIC AND INSTITUTIONAL PROBLEM AND ONE OF THE WAYS TO COMBAT IT IS BY GOING THROUGH SOME IMPLICIT BIAS TRAINING OAR OR ANTI-RACISM TRAINING YOURSELF SO YOU ARE AWARE AS INDIVIDUALS OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU -- WHAT MAY BE GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND BECAUSE OF, YOU KNOW, THE RACISM THAT IS BAKED INTO SOCIETY.

AND I TRY NOT TO BLAME INDIVIDUALS, BUT I DO SAY THIS IS A PROBLEM.

THERE IS WITHOUT A DOUBT SO MUCH EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT WE HAVE DISCRIMINATION AND RACISM IN OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.

IT'S NOT EVEN ARGUABLE ANY MORE.

THERE HAS BEEN, I LIKE TO SAY THAT WE HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO FILL THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS.

SO WE SHOULD STOP ARGUING ABOUT THAT AND FIGURE OUT HOW TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM.

>> LINDA VILLAROSA, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ABOUT THIS.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR