>>> WELL, TO ANOTHER CRISIS FACING AMERICA.

A NEW DOCUMENTARY CALLED "SOUND OF THE POLICE" EXAMINES THE HISTORY BETWEEN BLACK AMERICANS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT.

HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> HOW THESE COPS OPERATE IN THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN AMERICA'S DIRTY SECRET.

>> WE ARE IN A COUNTRY OF FEARING BLACK PEOPLE.

>> ROOTED ALL THE WAY BACK INTO SLAVERY.

>> SEEMS TO BE TWO FORMS OF POLICING AMERICA.

ONE FOR WHITE AMERICA, AND ANOTHER FOR BLACK AMERICA.

>> THE FILM'S DIRECTORS STANLEY NELSON AND VALERIE SCOON JOIN HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> THANKS.

STANLEY NELSON AND VALERIE SCOON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

FIRST, STANLEY, I WANT TO ASK, YOU HAVE A BODY OF WORK THAT HAS LOOKED INTO SO MANY DIFFERENT FACETS OF AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY AND LIFE.

YOUR MOST RECENT DOCUMENTARY, "SOUND OF THE POLICE," WHY DID YOU WANT TO TACKLE THIS NOW?

>> WELL, I THINK WHY I WANTED TO TACKLE IT NOW IS WE STARTED KIND OF RIGHT AFTER THE GEORGE FLOYD MOMENT.

SO MANY PEOPLE WERE THINKING ABOUT THE POLICE.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE POLICE.

BUT I THINK THAT IT WASN'T CLEAR HISTORICALLY THE ROLE OF THE POLICE AND AFRICAN AMERICANS.

SO WE WANTED TO TRY TO MAKE A FILM THAT TALKED ABOUT HISTORY, THAT THIS WAS NOT JUST -- GEORGE FLOYD IS NOT NEW.

ERIC GARNER IS NOT NEW.

THE BLACK PANTHERS, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THOSE THINGS, ALL THE CONFRONTATIONS WITH POLICE, THE RELATIONSHIP WITH AFRICAN AMERICANS OFTEN WITH THE POLICE, IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS NEW.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE IT WAS BAKED INTO THE CAKE OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO WE WANTED TO DETAIL THAT, BUT ALSO TALK ABOUT THE PRESENT, AND ALSO TALK ABOUT THE PAST.

>> IMAGINE IF YOU HAD AN INSTITUTION WHERE IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

>> WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE POLICE MADE ME SCARED OF THEM.

>> NO MOTHER SHOULD HAVE TO BURY THEIR CHILD.

>> AMIR WAS KILLED THAT BOTCHED NO-KNOCK WARRANT SITUATION.

>> I SAW THE BODY-CAM FOOTAGE.

SNUFFED HIM OUT AS HE SLEPT.

>> VALERIE, THIS STORY IS POIGNANTLY BOOK-ENDED FROM A FUNERAL SERVICE AND THE COMMENTS OF PARENTS WHO HAVE LOST THEIR SON TO POLICE VIOLENCE, BUT REALLY IT IS, AS STANLEY MENTIONED, HISTORICAL DIVE.

WHY TAKE IT ALL THE WAY BACK AND WHAT ARE -- WHERE DO THOSE DOTS START AT SLAVERY?

>> AS OUR INTERVIEWEES POINT OUT, LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THE SOUTH WAS INTERTWINED WITH SLAVE PATROLS, AND FROM THAT SOME OF THE METHODS, METHODOLOGY OR MECHANISMS, YOU KNOW, BECAME PART OF BAKED IN THE CAKE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

SO THE REASON WHY WE STARTED IN THE PAST IS THAT'S WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND BLACK PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, COMMENCED.

AND SO THE IDEA WOULD BE TO SORT OF TRACE IT THROUGH THE DECADES OR A CENTURY TO SORT OF SEE HOW THOSE PATTERNS, YOU KNOW, PERSIST IN THE SYSTEM OF LAW ENFORCEMENT WHERE THEY DO, IF THEY DO, AND THAT WAS PART OF WHAT WE WERE LOOKING AT, SORT OF TO ANSWER THE QUESTION OF HOW DID WE GET HERE.

>> STANLEY, WHAT'S INTERESTING IS, I THINK PEOPLE IN THE AUDIENCE MIGHT ASSUME, WELL, THE SLAVERY WAS KIND OF THE PROBLEM IN THE SOUTH WHEN BLACK PEOPLE VOTED WITH THEIR FEET, SO TO SPEAK, AND LEFT AND WENT TO THE NORTH, THAT THINGS CLEARLY MUST HAVE BEEN BETTER.

BUT WHAT YOUR FILM POINTS OUT IS HOW POLICE IN THE NORTH WERE ALSO COMPLICIT IN ENFORCEMENT OF A DIFFERENT KIND YOU HAVE SEGREGATION.

>> YEAH.

PART OF THE ROLE OF THE POLICE EARLY ON IN THE NORTH WAS TO KEEP AFRICAN AMERICANS IN THEIR PLACE.

SO AFRICAN AMERICANS HAD TO LIVE IN GHETTOS.

IF YOU STEPPED OUT OF THE GHETTO, YOU WOULD BE SUSPECT AND THE POLICE WOULD ENFORCE THAT.

SO VERY EARLY ON THE POLICE BECAME FEARED FOR THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY, AND THEY WEREN'T THERE TO KIND OF SERVE AND PROTECT AFRICAN AMERICANS.

THEY WERE THERE REALLY TO CONTROL AFRICAN AMERICANS.

THE ROLE FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS CITIZENS FROM THE BEGINNING, FROM THE 1860s UNTIL NOW, THE ROLE OF THE POLICE FOR THE AFRICAN AMERICANS HAS BEEN VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE ROLE FOR MANY OTHER AMERICANS.

>> VALERIE, YOU POINT OUT IN THE FILM THAT THERE WERE SO MANY HORRENDOUS LYNCHINGS THROUGHOUT THE SOUTH AND OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY WHERE, IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS, YOU CAN SEE THAT IT IS WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF POLICE OFFICERS WHO WOULD ESSENTIALLY EITHER PASS PATE AND CROWD CONTROL, OR WOULD BE SPECTATORS THEMSELVES, OR CERTAIN TIMES WOULD BE UNLOCKING THE JAIL CELL BEFORE THE TRIAL EVEN STARTED.

>> YES.

I THINK THAT THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT THING TO INCLUDE AS IT SHOWS IT SORT OF SPEAKS TO THE RELATIONSHIP OF BLACK PEOPLE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND IN THAT TIME PERIOD, SORT OF, OBVIOUSLY, SETS OUT THE IDEA THAT THEY ARE NOT THERE TO SORT OF PROTECT AND SERVE BLACK PEOPLE IF THEY ARE STANDING BY OR ALLOWING THESE LYNCHINGS TO TAKE PLACE.

SO I THINK THAT THAT SOWED SEEDS OF SOME DISTRUST, WHICH I THINK IS IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT AND TO SORT OF SEE HOW THAT PLAYS A ROLE IN THE RELATIONSHIP TODAY IN TERMS OF HOW BLACK PEOPLE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT ARE ENGAGING TODAY.

>> SO, STANLEY, TELL ME, HOW DOES IT TRANSLATE FROM THESE MOMENTS OF HISTORY THAT WE SEE IN YOUR FILM TO, LET'S SAY, YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP AS A YOUNG BLACK MAN.

WHAT DID YOUR PARENTS, WHAT DID YOUR GRANDPARENTS TELL YOU ABOUT HOW TO BE WITH THE POLICE?

>> YEAH, I GREW UP, YOU KNOW, IN NEW YORK CITY.

MY PARENTS TOLD ME TO AVOID THE POLICE, YOU KNOW, THAT THE BEST WAY THAT YOU COULD DEAL WITH THE POLICE WAS TO AVOID THEM.

AND I THINK THERE IS A REAL PARALLEL IN THAT FILM WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE FUTURE OF SLAVE LAW 1850 AND POSTERS WERE PUT UP IN THE NORTH THAT SAID BLACK PEOPLE DO NOT TRUST THE POLICE, DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE, AVOID THE POLICE, BECAUSE THEY ARE DEPUTIZED AS SLAVE CATCHERS AND PART OF THEIR JOB IS TO ASSIST SLAVE CATCHERS IN CATCHING RUNAWAY SLAVES.

>> VALERIE, WHAT'S INTERESTING ALSO IS HERE IS THE KIND OF MESSAGE THAT THE STANLEYS OF THE WORLD WOULD BE GETTING FROM PARENT AND GRAND PAURNTS P BUT THE DOMINANT NARRATIVE AS YOU POINT OUT, AND YOU HAVE AN AMAZING MONTAGE OF KIND OF COP SHOWS SO TO SPEAK OVER THE DECADES AND HOW POLICE ARE PAINTED AND WHAT WE ARE TOLD THEIR ROLE IS IN SOCIETY.

>> YES.

WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, SORT OF A CONTRASTING VIEW AS SOME OF OUR EXPERTS WOULD POINT OUT.

WE HAVE ALL THESE TV SHOWS WHERE EVERYTHING WORKS OUT, THAT THERE IS, YOU KNOW, FAIRNESS, NO BIAS, AND IF BLACK PEOPLE ARE IN THERE, YOU KNOW, AS THEY SAY, IN DRAGNET IN THE DRAGNET EPISODE WHERE WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, AN ACTIVE GOAL TO SORT OF HAVE BLACK PEOPLE IN THE SHOW WHO SORT OF, LIKE, WILL VALIDATE THE PERSPECTIVE ALL IS WELL IN THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BLACK PEOPLE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT, BUT ONE OF THE VERY WRITERS OF THAT EPISODE, YOU KNOW, ACKNOWLEDGES THAT IN REALITY THAT'S NOT WHAT BLACK PEOPLE WERE EXPERIENCING.

SO IT'S A SANITIZED VERSION OF WHAT BLACK PEOPLE WERE EXPERIENCING, WHICH WAS NOT WHAT WAS DEPICTED ON TELEVISION.

>> YEAH.

I ALSO CAN ADD THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THIS -- SOMETHING IS FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG IF WHITE FOLKS SAY TO THEIR KIDS, YOU KNOW, THE POLICE ARE YOUR FRIEND.

IF YOU ARE IN TROUBLE, GO TO THE POLICE.

YOU KNOW, OFFICER FRIENDLY WILL HELP YOU.

AT THE SAME TIME, A BLACK PARENT OF A KID IS SAYING, HEY, AVOID THE POLICE AT ALL COSTS.

YOU KNOW, NOTHING GOOD CAN HAPPEN IF YOU TALK TO A POLICE OFFICER.

I USED TO TELL MY SON, YOU KNOW, IF THE POLICE ARE AUGUST WALKING DOWN THE BLOCK TOWARDS YOU AND YOU CAN CALMLY CROSS THE STREET TO GET TO THE OTHER SIEFTD STREET WITHOUT RAISING THEIR ATTENTION, YOU SHOULD DO THAT, BECAUSE JUST BY ANY KIND OF CONTACT, SOMETHING NEGATIVE MIGHT HAPPEN.

AND THERE IS SOMETHING REALLY FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH POLICING AND WITH OUR COUNTRY IF THOSE TWO THINGS EXIST SIMULTANEOUSLY.

>> ACTUALLY, TO ADD TO THAT, THAT WAS ONE OF THE REASONS I DECIDED TO WORK ON THE PROJECT WHCHLT STANLEY OFFERED IT, I HESITATED BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A LARGE AND DIFFICULT PROJECT AND TOPIC.

HE POINTED OUT, DON'T I HAVE A SON?

YES, I DO.

DO I WORRY ABOUT HIM -- HE DIDN'T ASK ME THIS.

I REFLECTED ON THE IDEA I WORRY ABOUT HIM WALKING HOME, TO YOU HAVE YOUR I.D., BUT THAT FEAR OF HIM BEING OUT IN THE WORLD.

>> YOU KNOW, WAS PART OF THE REASON WHY I WANTED TO WORK ON THIS DOCUMENTARY FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THE OTHER PARENTS AND THE KIDS AND FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ITSELF TO IMPROVE THE SCENARIO.

>> STANLEY, THERE IS A PSYCHOLOGIST IN YOUR FILM THAT TALKS ABOUT HOW OFTEN THESE SCENES ARE NOW BEING PLAYED IN FRONT OF US.

AND I WONDER, IS THIS KIND OF JUST BECOMING BACKGROUND NOISE WHERE 20 YEARS AGO, 25 YEARS AGO, MAYBE BEFORE RODNEY KING, IT WAS NOT SO COMMON TO SEE VIDEO OF IT.

NOW EVERYONE HAS A CELLPHONE IN THEIR HAND AND THEY ARE SHOOTING VIDEO OF THESE THINGS.

I WONDER WHAT IS HAPPENING TO US WHEN WE SEE THIS TRAGEDY UNFOLD.

I MEAN, ARE WE BECOMING NUMB TO IT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK IN THE -- I THINK THAT FOR US TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM, WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM.

AND I THINK THAT IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE TODAY WITH WHERE WE WERE FIVE YEARS AGO, BEFORE GEORGE FLOYD AND BEFORE SOME OTHERS, I THINK MANY MORE PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES WOULD SAY, YEAH, THERE IS A PROBLEM.

RIGHT?

YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY SAYS, BEFORE WOULD YOU WOULD TALK TO YOUR WIFE, FRIENDS, THEY SAY, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

AND NOW NOBODY SAYS, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM.

NOW, WE GO DON -- HAVE WE GONE AS FAR AS WE NEED TO GO OR PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN BY THIS POINT IN SOLVING THE PROBLEM?

I DON'T THINK SO.

BUT I JUST THINK, AS HORRIBLE AS IT IS, AT LEAST WE RECOGNIZE, AT LEAST SOME PEOPLE ARE RECOGNIZING, MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE RECOGNIZING THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM, AND I THINK THAT'S THE FIRST STEP FOR CHANGE.

>> VALERIE, YOU ALSO SPOKE WITH MEMBERS OF -- FORMER LAW ENFORCEMENT.

WHY WAS THAT IMPORTANT?

>> IT'S IMPORTANT TO GET THEIR PERSPECTIVE ON THIS -- ON THE RELATIONSHIP AND THE PERSPECTIVE AND THEIR -- THEIR PERSPECTIVE ON THE PROBLEM WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AND BLACK PEOPLE.

I THINK WE CAN SORT OF SEE THERE IS AN INTERSECTION, YOU KNOW, THAT THEY UNDERSTAND THAT BLACK PEOPLE DO WANT LAW ENFORCEMENT, MANY BLACK PEOPLE DO WANT LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THE COMMUNITIES.

THEY JUST WANT A LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT MAKE THEM FEEL MORE PROTECTED AND SERVED.

AND I THINK THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO GET THEIR PERSPECTIVE ON THAT.

>> STANLEY, IN THE FILM YOU HAVE INTERVIEWS WITH POLICE OFFICERS WHO TALK ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCE.

PATROLLING BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS VERSUS NON-BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS.

WHAT IS THE LOGIC BEHIND THEIR APPROACH IN DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS A CLEAR LOGIC, YOU KNOW.

IT'S MORE OF THAT POLICE DEPARTMENTS TRADITIONALLY HAVE SEEN AFRICAN AMERICANS AS MORE SUSPECT AND HAVE TO BE POLICED, YOU KNOW, IN A STRONGER WAY, HAVE TO POLICE -- HAVE TO BE POLICED WITH MORE FORCE.

AND THAT CARRIES OVER TO POLICE DEPARTMENTS TODAY.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SEE, VALERIE, IS JUST THE PERCEPTION OF HOW WE FEEL ABOUT POLICE KIND OF PLAYING OUT IN DAY-TO-DAY LIFE.

AND YOU HAVE MULTIPLE EXAMPLES OF VIDEOS THAT HAVE NOW BECOME KIND OF FAMOUS OR INFAMOUS OF WOMEN THAT WE KIND OF, YOU KNOW, SHORTHAND AS KARENS, CALLING THE POLICE AND YOU KIND OF GET A LITTLE BIT INTO THE PSYCHOLOGY OF HOW OR WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO SEE THAT THERE IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE IN SOCIETY THAT FEEL THE POLICE WORK FOR THEM, TO TRY TO WORK ON THEIR BEHALF AUTOMATICALLY.

>> YES.

I THINK WE -- THAT COMES IN THE SECTION WHERE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE FUGITIVE SLAVE LAW.

AND DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME, AND EVEN BEFORE THE FUGITIVE SLAVE LAW, YOU KNOW, ENSLAVED PEOPLE, WHITE PEOPLE, IT WAS ALMOST THEIR LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY, IN FACT WAS THEIR LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY TO REPORT ON ANY BLACK PERSON THAT THEY FELT WAS OUT OF PLACE.

SO THEY COULD -- THEY WOULD BE SEEN AS SUSPICIOUS OR GUILTY BEFORE BEING PROVEN INNOCENT AND IT WAS THEIR SORT OF RESPONSIBILITY TO CONSTANTLY REPORT ON BLACK PEOPLE AND TO FEEL THAT THE POLICE AND THEY WERE ALIGNED WITH WHITE PEOPLE IN DOING THAT.

SO WHEN WE LOOK AT THE SECTION ON KARENS, WE'RE TRACING THE IDEA THAT -- THIS IDEA THAT THAT'S THEIR POLICE, THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT THESE WOMEN, YOU KNOW, FEEL LIKE THE POLICE ARE THEIR POLICE AND THEY CAN CALL THEM WHEN THEY HAVE A DOUBT ABOUT YOU OR QUESTIONING WHY YOU SHOULD BE THERE, AND THAT TREND, LIKE THE POLICE ARE THEIR POLICE, AND THEY CAN CALL THEM TO CALL YOU TO ACCOUNT IS PART OF WHAT WE WERE ADDRESSING IN THAT SECTION.

>> STANLEY, OF ALL THE THOUSANDS PLUS POLICE HOMICIDES THAT HAPPEN OR POLICE MURDERS THAT HAPPEN EVERY YEAR DISPROPORTIONATELY EFFECTING BLACK MEN OR MEN OF COLOR, THAT 98%, 98% OF THE CASES, POLICE OFFICERS ARE NOT CHARGED WITH A CRIME.

AND YOU HAVE A SECTION IN THERE ABOUT HOW THE ROLE OF -- CONTINUES THAT CYCLE.

>> THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME TALK ABOUT.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE PROBLEM WITH POLICING, HOW WE GET BETTER WERK DON'T THINK ABOUT THAT AS MUCH AS WE SHOULD.

I MEAN, WE HAVE A SECTION WHERE WE SEE THE UNIONS DEFENDING THE MURDERER OF ERIC GARNER WHO -- ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY -- THE REPRESENTATIVE SAYS, YOU KNOW.

THE CRY FOR HELP, THEN YOU CAN BREATHE.

YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST CALLOUS TO SAY HAD MAN WAS CHOKED TO DEATH.

BUT WHAT THEY HAVE -- THEY ARE PART -- PART OF WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO, PART OF THEIR DUTY IS TO DEFEND THE POLICE AND THEY DEFEND THE POLICE NO MATTER WHAT.

AND THEY DEFEND THE POLICE AND THEY HAVE NOT ONLY STATISTICS, THEY HAVE THE PERSON -- THE RECORD, THEIR FAMILIES' RECORD, THEY HAVE MONEY, AND THEY ARE TOPS IN -- IN THEIR BELIEF.

AND SO WE THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE TALK A LITTLE BIT IN THIS FILM ABOUT THE UNIONS AND THE POWER.

UNIONS AND THE POWER OF THE UNIONS TO SHAPE PUBLIC OPINION WHEN THESE HORRIBLE THINGS HAPPEN.

>> STANLEY, WHAT'S YOUR HOPE FOR PEOPLE WATCHING THIS FILM?

>> I THINK THAT THEY WILL -- THAT THE DOOR WILL BE OPENED JUST A LITTLE BIT WIDER AND THAT THEY WILL SEE MORE AND MORE THE PROBLEMS AND THEY WILL UNDERSTAND THAT CHANGE IS NECESSARY AND THAT CHANGE IS POSSIBLE, YOU KNOW.

THAT THERE IS A WAY THAT WE CAN HAVE LAW ENFORCEMENT AND IT NOT BE SUCH A BAD RELATIONSHIP, BUT THAT WE UNDERSTAND THAT CERTAIN THINGS AGAIN WERE BAKED INTO THE CAKE.

WE UNDERSTAND HOW WE CAN GET THAT OUT.

>> NATALIE?

>> YEAH, I WANT PEOPLE TO SORT OF SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, OUT OF DISCOMFORT CAN COME CHANGE, THAT CHANGE CAN COME.

YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, IT'S DIFFICULT TO LOOK AT THIS, THIS RELATIONSHIP, BUT THE REASON WHY WE WANT TO LOOK AT IT IS TO IMPROVE IT AND TO -- AND PLIEFB THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S MY HOPE, THAT BY LOOKING AT THIS, THIS WILL BE A PART OF A CONVERSATION STARTER THAT, PEOPLE CAN SORT OF MOVE FORWARD TO IMPROVE THAT RELATIONSHIP.

>> "SOUND OF THE POLICE" IS NOW STREAMING ON HULU.

STANLEY NELSON AND VALERIE SCOON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.