- Globalization has lifted up more than a billion people out of poverty.

What we need to do is not walk away from it, but reimagine it to pull those who are left out from the margins into the mainstream of global trade.

[upbeat music] - Hello and welcome to GZERO World.

I'm Ian Bremmer, and today, we are talking all about trade.

The complex business of moving goods and services around the world.

In the last half century, globalization has dramatically increased economic output.

It's created hundreds of millions of jobs.

It's lifted millions out of poverty, but development between countries has been uneven.

Global inequality is on the rise.

Covid-19 and the war in Ukraine, exposed weaknesses in the global supply chain and rising tension between the United States and China have led to a world economy that's becoming more and more fractured.

All that uncertainty creates protectionism and nearshoring, but is the way out of a crisis not less trade but more.

And how do we make sure trade in the future is fair to countries, especially, in the global south, who are reeling from runaway debt and bearing the brunt of climate change.

My guest today, world Trade Organization Director General Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala.

Don't worry I've also got your "Puppet Regime".

- You're on the no-fly list.

- What?

How is that possible?

- But first, a word from the folks that help us keep the lights on.

- [Promoter] Funding for GZERO World is provided by our lead sponsor, Prologis.

- [Promoter] Every day all over the world, Prologis helps businesses of all sizes lower their carbon footprint, and scale their supply chains, with a portfolio of logistics and real estate and an end-to-end solutions platform addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today.

Learn more at prologis.com.

- [Promoter] And by, Cox Enterprises is proud to support GZERO.

We're working to improve lives in the areas of communications, automotive, clean tech, sustainable agriculture, and more.

Learn more at Cox.career/news.

Additional funding provided by Jerre and Mary Joy Stead, Carnegie Corporation of New York, and... [upbeat music] [dramatic music] [upbeat music] - [Ian] What do you do with 350 million gallons of radioactive water and no where to put it?

It's a problem the government of Japan had to deal with when it ran out of space to store treated wastewater at the decommissioned Fukushima nuclear plant, and they began releasing it into the Pacific Ocean in August.

- [Reporter] The decision to discharge water used to cool damaged reactors was approved by the United Nations nuclear watchdog last month.

- It's a release that follows months of debate and strong opposition from fishing interest who say this is very bad for business.

- [Reporter] China immediately banned imports of all Japanese seafood, and Japan's fishing industry took such a big hit that Prime Minister Kishida ate Fukushima sashimi in front of reporters to prove he wouldn't die.

But besides the eating octopus on camera, what do you do when one of the world's most powerful countries decides to ban your whole industry?

Where do you go when someone isn't playing by the rules of the global economy?

Well, that's where the World Trade Organization comes in.

It's the referee of global trade.

A forum to negotiate agreements and resolve disputes.

And so, one country bans your fish, or your fabric, or your farm equipment, or your octopus.

The other can file a complaint for a WTO panel to decide whether the ban violates the rules.

WTO was formed in 1995.

It's barely a millennial, but it's based on the 1948 General Agreement of Tariffs and Trade, or GATT.

And now, has 164 member countries representing 98% of world trade.

Major decisions are reached by consensus.

WTOs resolutions are binding.

WTO policies have produced tariffs, they've opened up new markets, but critics argue that it has been too slow to adapt to the modern economy, and it's made inequality worse by favoring wealthy countries.

Something the United States loudly disagrees with.

- The World Trade Organization's been very unfair to the United States for many, many years.

- Washington says the WTOs strict rules hurt US jobs and industry while letting China shield its massive domestic market from foreign competition.

For the past seven years, the US has been blocking appointments of new judges to the WTO Appeals Body, which is kind of like the Supreme Court of trade.

And without judges, WTO can't issue judgments, can't resolve disputes.

Global trade surge to a record 32 trillion in 2022.

With all the talk of protectionism and economic fracturing, China and US trade are still inextricably linked.

We need each other, and someone needs to set the rules.

Someone needs to make sure countries follow them.

World leaders, including the United States, have committed to reforming the WTOs broken dispute settlement system by 2024.

But can they, can they put aside their differences and come up with a system that works for everyone?

Until that happens, you might not be eating any Japanese octopus in Beijing.

My guest today is WTO Director General Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala.

She is the first woman and the first African, by extension, the first African woman.

See what I did there?

To lead the organization.

Since coming into office in 2021, she's pushed countries to recommit to globalization, to invest in developing economies.

Here's our conversation.

Madam Director General, so good to see you.

- Thank you, Ian.

- I wanna start, we're here on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly and you have been talking about the need for re-globalization, and I'm wondering if you could explain to our audience what do you mean by that?

- Well, thank you so much.

We are in an era of geopolitical tensions, and many people are very pessimistic about the impact of globalization.

And globalization has lifted up more than a billion people out of poverty, but it's true that some have been left behind.

Poor people in rich countries and poor countries have been left behind.

With that in mind, and with the tensions we've seen, with the war in Ukraine, the pandemic, and all that, and emerging pessimism about whether globalization can deliver has kind of taken hold.

And we're saying that, please let's remember what this globalization has delivered.

What we need to do is not walk away from it, but reimagine it.

And reimagine how it can help to pull those who are left out from the margins into the mainstream of global trade.

That's what we are calling re-globalization.

We're seeing opportunities where people see difficulties.

Let me just declare.

We've seen the vulnerabilities of supply chains during the pandemic, and that has made people believe that we should reshore, you know, let's produce as much as we can at home.

- At home.

- Let's produce with our neighbors, our friends, because you know, that's the only way we can be sure.

And I understand those sentiments and we are seeing some of that reshoring and nearshoring, but then there's also the desire to build global resilience.

Not to rely too much on any one group of countries or any country to produce things.

So, I'm seeing people saying, we don't want, we want interdependence, not overdependence.

We want to build global resilience.

Well, re-globalization is a tool for building global resilience.

- So, when you hear both the Americans, President Biden and others, and the Europeans, Ursula von der Leyen and others, talk about de-risking and they're primarily talking about the relationship with China.

But it does reflect and factor into this idea of global resilience as opposed to national resilience or resilience with your friends.

How do you relate to that concept right now?

The concept of de-risking?

- Absolutely, I actually, think that de-risking language began to come up after we started talking of this issue of building resilience to re-globalization.

Of not throwing away the benefits.

To me, de-risking when I listen to President von der Leyen talk about it is very similar to what we're saying.

Let us build supply chains, decentralized supply chains to countries where the environment is good, but who have not been in the mainstreams of globalization.

And many of those exist.

You know, people usually talk of China plus one and the plus one will be Vietnam, or Indonesia, or India.

But we've got other countries that have the right environment.

What about Bangladesh?

What about Brazil?

Mexico is already in.

You know, what about in Africa?

We've got Kenya, we've got Rwanda, we've got Senegal.

And I could go on, I don't want to say my own country, Nigeria, which is the largest population.

- You just said it, you just said it.

Come on!

- And you know, in East Asia, - And the largest economy in Africa by the way, yes.

- And the largest economy.

In East Asia, we've got Cambodia, which is receiving some of that investment and Laos.

So, I could go on and on.

What we're saying is let's look at others.

Other countries where the investment environment is right.

Let's decentralize supply chains.

It's not right that 10 countries export 80% of the vaccines in the world.

It's two concentrated.

Semiconductors, we know that that's also very concentrated.

Rare earth minerals, so let's look rare earth minerals.

There are many countries in Africa and Latin America that have these, let's decentralized and try to bring those countries' supply chains into the mainstream.

- And global labor has also been very concentrated, right?

I mean, for the period of globalization, China was a very big piece of let's have the factory for the world.

It's incredible amounts of inexpensive, very efficient labor.

And you're right, some people in developed countries were displaced, but also, there's a lot of concentration risk.

And I do think that some of this conversation is about, wait a second, we can't, we don't need as much labor as we used to.

That labor is a lot more expensive than it used to be.

Shouldn't we be building things closer to where the consumer markets are, irrespective of whether that's at home or not?

- Well, absolutely, Ian, you see business, I mean, you know, labor cost in China were already going up before the pandemic.

And that is why you see a lot of businesses also moving to Vietnam to produce things, to take advantage of the cheaper labor there, there are productivity.

So, even before all this disappointment and the disruption we saw in supply chains, businesses were already making wise decisions based on the economics of what they could see.

And so, we should allow businesses to make the wise decisions, because I think they'll do the right thing mostly.

Now, I think we may have to trade some efficiency to build resilience.

Meaning that we may need to diversify and decentralize production to many more countries.

- So, just in time was a little bit too efficient, if you will, too dangerous.

- Well, you know, it played its role, and the world benefited from it.

But now the time has come.

Let me say one reason why I think we really need to pay attention to what we're saying, climate change.

Climate change is wrecking havoc in so many places.

If you concentrate your production in any one place, you risk really disrupting things.

You know, you can there are examples when there were floods in Thailand at one time and then the automobile industry was impacted by that.

Do you see what is happening all over the world?

So, we do need to diversify, if we want to build resilience.

Diversify, decentralized production.

But you are killing two birds with one stone.

- So, who are the champions?

I mean, of course the WTO, but when you look at leaders around the world, who do you see as champions for re-globalization today?

- Well, I can tell you that Chancellor Olaf Scholz has been talking about how do we decentralize the fertilizer supply chain for just as an example.

He's been talking about this very much... - Really urgent given the Russian War in Ukraine, of course.

- Exactly, that again, showed the vulnerabilities of dependence on the Black Sea region for grain, feed and fertilizer.

And so, that talk about how do we decentralize fertilizer production so that the world is not so dependent on any one region.

That's what we're also talking about.

There you also create jobs in countries that were not part of the global, let's say fertilizer, or vaccine, or pharmaceutical supply chain.

So, why don't we think of that?

Why is it that Africa, why must it import more than 90% of its medicines and 99% of its vaccines, 1.4 billion people.

Why don't you decentralize production?

That you create jobs for young people, for women, and at the same time you bring the countries there into the mainstream of trade and better integrate them.

So, we can kill two birds with one stone.

So, Chancellor Scholz is there, President Macron is talking about it.

And also, the derisking notion that President von der Leyen is talking about is very related to this re-globalization.

- When you're talking to me about imports of medicines, you're talking about vaccines.

You know, Africa hasn't yet globalized.

What needs to happen with the Africa Union being a part of the agenda for the G20.

Now they brought in.

What can we see in the next year or two, three that would help meaningfully Africa to get on the path of globalization?

- Well, Africa, you're absolutely right, has about 3% of world trade and that's too small.

But Africa is doing some things that are pretty exciting.

The African continental free trade area is an area of the 55 countries and 1.4 billion people.

If, when not if, that experiment really gets going of Africans integrating better with themselves and trading and creating a real market of 1.4 billion equal to that of China and India, that is automatically very attractive for trade for the world.

You know, we need to remove the barriers to trade, reduce the costs, 'cause costs, trade costs on the continent are quite high.

When you do that, I think that will make the continent much more attractive for investment and bring it into that margin.

The re-globalization, you know, can really begin to take place.

We now need to convince businesses that Africa is not the big risk.

There's a perception that it's a huge risk to invest on the continent, and perception is running ahead of reality.

- So, we've talked about the impact of geopolitics on re-globalization.

The WTO of course, is also caught up in some of this.

Since I have you here, Ngozi, I have to ask you about the broken dispute resolution settlement mechanism.

And the Americans have been holding up the appointment of appellate judges.

Supposedly reform needs to happen of the WTO before they're willing to make that happen.

Is that moving forward?

- Yes, yes, it is.

Just to correct one thing.

The system is really not broken.

It's two tiers.

So, there's a panel level, and last year 17 cases were brought.

And cases are being brought every day.

- And they get resolved at the panel level?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- The panel gives a judgment.

The problem we have is quite rightly like you said, Ian.

The second tier, the appellate body, is not functioning, because as you said, the US blocked the election of judges into that tier.

So, what happens is if there's a quote unquote judgment against a member, they can appeal it into the void since that second tier is not functioning.

So, and this is it's very crucial that it functions, because if you negotiate agreements, it's not good that the mechanism for enforceability doesn't work well and smoothly.

So, we are reforming it.

The US has been very constructive now and they have laid out what their problems are with the system.

We have a process ongoing at the WTO.

We hope that by the time we have our 13th ministerial meeting in Abu Dhabi... - Next year, yeah.

- Yes, end of February, 2024, that we would've gone a substantial way towards making, agreeing on this reform, and the form it should take.

So, work is visibly underway and I'm hopeful.

I don't want to be too hopeful, but I'm hopeful that we will go a long distance in this reform.

- Does that mean that next year, more likely than not, we actually will have a breakthrough of this impasse on the Appellate Court?

- I'm hoping so.

Actually, at our 12th ministerial, June last year, members signed on the dotted line to reform of this well-functioning dispute settlement system by 2024.

I think the issue now is when in 2024, and we're trying to say, "Let's get it done by February when we have this ministerial meeting."

- Well, you know, we're very litigious in the United States so we want to be able to bring people to court.

Let's get this resolved.

- Lemme tell you that the US is one of the biggest users of the system and they've won the most cases.

They've also lost, but they've won more than they've lost.

So, we hope that some of the complaints they're making are legitimate.

They're not the only ones who have problems with the system.

Developing countries also find it difficult to access.

So, let's take all these complaints.

Let's try and reform the system and make it useful to everyone.

- Madam Director General, thanks so much for joining us today.

- Thank you, Ian.

[techno music] - From one global game changer to another.

We now wanna introduce you to Eddie Ndopu, GZERO World Tony Maciulis met up with him on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly in New York, and his story is simply extraordinary.

- My name is Eddie Ndopu.

Today, I'm speaking to you on behalf of the world's largest minority.

The 15% of people in the world who have a disability.

- [Tony] At age two, as a toddler in Namibia, Eddie Ndopu was diagnosed with spinal muscular atrophy and given just five years to live, but the years went by and along came college and then a master's degree from Oxford.

- The ability to be able to attend mainstream education in late nineties Namibia was truly a defining moment in my life.

And so, you know, I have a firsthand appreciation for the value of education.

- [Tony] Now 33, Ndopu is fighting for equal access to education all over the world.

- The statistics are still abysmal.

We're sitting between 90 and 98% of children with disabilities in the global south who've never seen the inside of a classroom.

It remains a travesty of justice.

And so, I think really a redoubling of efforts around thinking about what does inclusive education really look like in this current sort of world historical moment where, you know, the crises are compounded, right?

And marginalized communities seem to be left behind.

- [Tony] In 2019, Ndopu was tapped by UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres to be one of the 17 advocates for sustainable development goals.

Translating the needs of the most vulnerable people including those with disabilities to a global audience.

You're in some amazing company, Mia Motley, Justin Trudeau, Brad Smith of Microsoft.

What are you bringing to the conversation that wasn't there before?

- I believe that my presence sort of gives a, it really illuminates the lived experience of people who are from the margins of society and bringing those lived experiences into the room where decisions are made.

I represent a cross section of society and in some ways I feel a deep obligation to ensure that when we talk about leaving nobody behind we do so in a way that feels substantive and is able to translate into meaningful public policy.

- Ndopu wants us to reframe how we think about disabilities and make the world a more inclusive place.

What one change would you like to see happen immediately to help people with disabilities globally?

- I think having people with disabilities in leadership positions, right?

I think, look, Tony, representation matters.

It really does.

I think it's not enough to just have people with disabilities as the beneficiaries of international development.

I think that people with disabilities need to be leading in organizations, need to be in the driver's seat of international development and really changing the face of leadership as we know it.

I look forward to the day when I'm not the only wheelchair user in a given space.

It is not lost on me that there is a huge privilege and a responsibility that I hold, but at the same time, I will not be doing my job effectively if I continue to be the only one, right?

So, it's about really expanding, opening up the aperture, ensuring that we're able to have fresh voices, fresh faces in the decision-making room.

- For GZERO World, I'm Tony Maciulis in New York.

[techno music] - And now, to "Public Regime".

Last summer, a Brazilian court banned former President Jair Bolsonaro from running again for office for eight years.

Now, Bolsonaro is finding out just how far that ban goes.

Roll the tape.

[plane engine roaring] - Huh, finally ready to go on vacation.

No communist scum can stop me from enjoying this at least.

- [Announcer] Last and final boarding call at gate 24.

- Bolsonaro checking in.

- Oh, yeah, Bolsonaro.

Oh, I'm sorry, sir.

It says you can't board this flight.

- What?

Why not?

- Well, apparently, sir, you're on the no-fly list.

- What?

How is that possible?

I've been flying without problem since 2019.

- Oh, this looks like a new ruling by the Supreme Aviation Administration.

It's saying you are not allowed to fly for the next eight years.

- What?

This is outrageous.

I have to get on that plane.

Why am I banned?

- Well, sir, last time you were on the plane you made a total scene.

- The engines of this plane do not work.

The flight is rigged against us.

The pilot is a communist.

- You also got a group of passengers to attack the pilot after landing.

- They, what?

No, what kind of airline is this?

- One with consequences for your actions, sir.

- Lies, I've got to get on that plane.

What?

What?

How come that guy's allowed to get on the plane?

[speaker speaking Spanish] - Oh, him?

He's flying American.

♪ Public Regime ♪ - That's our show this week.

Come back next week, and if you like what you see, or you just wanna do some trade.

You wanna trade, you wanna be part of the 98%, you wanna trade officially.

Check us out at gzeromedia.com.

[bell ringing] [upbeat music] [upbeat music continues] [upbeat music continues] [bright music] - [Promoter] Funding for GZERO World is provided by our lead sponsor, Prologis.

- [Promoter] Every day all over the world, Prologis helps businesses of all sizes lower their carbon footprint, and scale their supply chains with a portfolio of logistics and real estate and an end-to-end solutions platform.

Addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today.

Learn more at prologis.com.

- [Promoter] And by, Cox Enterprises is proud to support GZERO.

We're working to improve lives in the areas of communications, automotive, clean tech, sustainable agriculture, and more.

Learn more at Cox.career/news.

Additional funding provided by Jerre and Mary Joy Stead, Carnegie Corporation of New York.

And... [gentle upbeat music] [upbeat music]