>>> NEXT TO THE U.S. JUSTICE SYSTEM AND THE PROBLEM WITH PAROLE.

WHILE CONCERNS ABOUND WHEN IT COMES TO AMERICAN PRISONS IT'S NOT USUALLY FOCUSED ON PEOPLE SERVING TIME OUTSIDE.

ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUEST THE SITUATION THERE IS SO DIRE THAT SOME WOULD RATHER STAY IN PRISON THAN DEAL WITH PAROLE.

VINCENT SHERALDI THE SECRETARY OF DEPARTMENT OF JUVENILE SERVICES WITH A NEW BOOK, MASS SUPERVISION, PROBATION, PAROLE AND THE ILLUSION OF FREEDOM.

THIS CONVERSATION IS PART OF OUR ONGOING INITIATIVE ABOUT POVERTY, JOBS, AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA CALLED "CHASING THE DREAM."

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

MR. SECRETARY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, MICHELLE.

>> SO YOUR BOOK IS CALLED "MASS SUPERVISION."

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE HEARD BY NOW, THEY'VE HEARD THE TERM MASS INCARCERATION.

BUT WHAT'S MASS SUPERVISION, AND WHY DID YOU WRITE A WHOLE BOOK ABOUT IT?

>> IT'S KIND OF INTERESTING.

LIKE PROBATION AND PAROLE FLY UNDER THE RADAR OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, RESEARCH, PHILANTHROPY, MEDIA.

THERE'S TWICE AS MANY PEOPLE ON PROBATION AND PAROLE IN AMERICA AS THERE ARE IN PRISONS AND JAILS, AND ABOUT A QUARTER OF EVERYBODY ENTERING PRISON EVERY YEAR ENTERS NOT BECAUSE THEY COMMITTED A CRIME BUT BECAUSE THEY VIOLATED SOME TECHNICAL TERM OF THEIR PROBATION OR PAROLE.

STAYING OUT PAST CURFEW, ASSOCIATING WITH SOMEBODY WITH A FELONY RECORD, GETTING A CREDIT CARD WHEN YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO, THINGS LIKE THAT THAT AREN'T FINES FOR THE REST OF US BUT CAN LAND THEM IN JAIL AND DO QUITE A BIT.

>> SO HOW DID YOU BECOME ACQUAINTED WITH THIS AS A PROBLEM THAT NEEDS TO BE FACED OR TALKED ABOUT?

IT'S KIND OF INVISIBLE TO THE REST OF US UNLESS YOU'RE RELATED TO SOMEONE AFFECTED BY IF OR YOU ARE YOURSELF?

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

ONE OF THE THINGS I OFTEN ASK PEOPLE IS WHAT'S YOUR FAVORITE PROBATION MOVIE?

BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE CAN NAME THEIR FAVORITE PRISON MOVIE, BUT WE DON'T HAVE A MENTAL PICTURE OF PAROLE OR PROBATION SUPERVISION.

I GOT THIS JOB FROM MAYOR BLOOMBERG IN 2010.

HE RECRUITED ME.

I WAS GOING TO BE DONE WITH GOVERNMENT FOR A WHILE, BUT HIS RECRUITER RECRUITED ME, AND I'D NEVER WORKED IN PROBATION OR PAROLE BEFORE.

AND SO WHAT I DID WAS I STARTED WITH A 19-SESSION LISTENING TOUR.

AND, YOU KNOW, I TALKED TO MY STAFF THAT WERE PROBATION OFFICERS, AND THEY WERE MISERABLE IN THEIR JOBS.

AND MANY OF THEM HAD COMMITTED SUICIDE WITH THE SERVICE WEAPONS THAT A PREDECESSOR HAD SUPPLIED THEM WITH.

YOU KNOW, MORALE WAS JUST IN THE TOILET, AND WHAT IT WAS WAS LARGELY A STAFF FULL OF PEOPLE OF COLOR, AFRICAN AMERICAN, LATINO FOLKS IN PRISONING FOR -- ANOTHER GROUP OF BLACK AND LATINO FOLKS.

AND THERE WAS STRAIN AROUND THAT.

AND THEY STRAIGHT UP SAID WE LOCK THESE PEOPLE UP BECAUSE YOU MAKE US DO SO.

WE FEEL LIKE IF WE THINK SOMEBODY DESERVES A SECOND CHANCE, WE DON'T WANT TO GIVE IT TO THEM BECAUSE IF THAT GOES FOUL, YOU'RE GOING TO THROW US UNDER THE BUS.

AND THAT WAS PRETTY SOBERING.

AND I WEPT INTO THE COURT AND I WAS VISITING THE DIFFERENT OFFICES IN THE FIVE BOROUGHS OF NEW YORK CITY.

I WENT INTO COURT TWICE.

I SAW PEOPLE VOLUNTARILY TELL A JUDGE SEND ME TO LIKER'S ISLAND, ONE OF THE MOST VIOLENT JAILS IN THE COUNTRY, I'M DONE BEING ON PAROLE.

I SAW THIS ONE WOMAN CONVULSED IN TEARS BECAUSE SHE WAS A SINGLE MOM.

WE WOULDN'T LET HER BRING HER DAUGHTER TO MEETINGS WITH THE PROBATION OFFICER.

AND SHE DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY TO HIRE A BABY-SITTERS AND WAS RUNNING OUT OF FAVORS WITH HER FAMILY AND FRIENDS.

SHE SAID I CAN'T DO IT ANYMORE.

MY MOTHER IS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF MY DAUGHTER, SEND ME FOOLIKERS FOR SIX MONTHS AND I'M DONE WITH ALL THIS.

WHAT DO POLITICIANS THINK WE GET?

THEY THINK WE GET REHABILITATION, THINK WE GET DIVERSION FROM INCARCERATION.

>> WHY THOUGH?

BECAUSE ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK IS THAT IT'S HUGELY EXPENSIVE.

I MEAN THIS IS LIKE A WHOLE BUREAUCRACY.

LIKE THE MONEY YOU SPEND CHASING PEOPLE DOWN OR LOCKING THEM UP, IT'S HUGELY EXPENSIVE, SO WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S PERSISTED TO THIS EXTENT?

>> YEAH, AND WHEN I WENT INSIDE AND I STARTED TO MEET PROBATION AND PAROLE OFFICERS, OF COURSE THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME MEAN ONES IN THERE, BUT MOST OF THEM ARE NOT THAT.

A LOT OF CHURCH GOING PEOPLE, A LOT OF HARDWORKING PEOPLE.

AND THEY BASICALLY FEEL LIKE FROM THE TOP, FROM THE GOVERNOR, FROM THE MAYOR, THERE'S THIS PRESSURE TO NEVER MAKE A MISTAKE.

AND SO IF YOU MAKE A MISTAKE AND IT BLOWS UP ON YOUR BOSS, YOUR MAYOR, YOUR COMMISSIONER, YOUR SUPERVISOR, THEN YOU ARE GOING TO GET THROWN UNDER THE BUS BY THOSE PEOPLE.

YOU'RE GOING TO GET HUMILIATE.

YOU MIGHT GET FIRED.

IN MY DEPARTMENT THEY USED TO TRANSFER PEOPLE TO VERY INCONVENIENT LOCATIONS.

IF YOU LIVED IN QUEENS, THEY'D TRANSFER YOU TO BRONX.

IF YOU LIVED IN THE BRONX, THEY'D TRANSFER YOU TO STATEN ISLAND JUST TO MAKE YOUR LIFE HARD.

THERE'S NO UPSIDE FOR YOU AS A PROBATION OFFICER OR PAROLE OFFICER TO TAKE A CHANCE.

BECAUSE IF THAT PERSON LIVES A HAPPY, HEALTHY LIFE YOU GET NOTHING FOR THAT.

WHEREAS IF THEY REOFFEND YOU'RE MADE TO BE A FOOL, YOU MIGHT LOSE YOUR JOB.

WHILE IT COSTS SOCIETY MONEY, IT DOESN'T COST ME A PROBATION PAROLE OFFICER ANYTHING.

IN FACT, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY, IT'S THE ONLY WAY I CAN WITH A STROKE OF A PEN SPEND 60, $70,000 EVERY YEAR.

IF I WANT TO GET THIS PERSON DRUG TREATMENT OR AN APARTMENT OR JOB, THOSE THINGS I GOT TO BEG FOR.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW THIS TERRIBLE FEEDBACK LOOP, HOW IT COSTS SOCIETY A LOT OF MONEY, HOW IT BASICALLY CREATES A REALLY KIND OF TOXIC, DISPIRITING, YOU KNOW, ENVIRONMENT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY DOING IT.

WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AFFECTED BY THIS?

I MEAN I'M THINKING ABOUT YOU TELL OF OTHER EXAMPLE IN THE BOOK, BUT ONE I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT REMEMBER IS THE HIP HOP ARTIST AND ACTIVIST MEEK MILL.

THIS IS A CASE THAT CAME TO PUBLIC ATTENTION.

CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT IT?

>> MILL WAS ON PROBATION FOR A GUN DRUG CHARGE THAT HE COMMITTED WHEN HE WAS 19 OR WAS ACCUSED OF.

THE FACTS, I THINK, WERE SOMEWHAT IN DOUBT, AND LATER HE WON AN APPEAL.

BUT BEFORE THAT HAPPENED, HE WAS ON PROBATION -- SUPPOSED TO BE ON PROBATION FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, I THINK 18 MONTHS.

BUT THE JUDGE KEPT ON HIM BECAUSE SHE FELT HE WAS NOT COMPLETELY FULFILLING HIS OBLIGATIONS, SO SHE KEPT EXTENDING HIS PROBATION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

HE WAS ON PROBATION 12 YEARS.

HIS WHOLE YOUNG LIFE.

AT THE END OF WHICH HE WAS ACCUSED OF POPPING A WHEELIE ON A BORROWED MOTORCYCLE AND IN GETTING INTO AN ALTERCATION WITH A PAPARAZZI AT AN AIRPORT.

BOTH OF WHICH CASES WERE DISMISSED, BUT YOU CAN BE INCARCERATED FOR DISMISSED CASES IF YOU'RE ON PROBATION.

SO THE JUDGE INCARCERATED FOR TWO TO FOUR YEARS IN PRISON.

THIS GUY WAS A PERFORMING ARTIST, HE'D BEEN OUT FOR 12 YEARS WITHOUT REOFFENDING.

HE WAS A PHILANTHROPIST AND DOING GOOD WORKS AND THE JUDGE VIOLATED HIM BECAUSE HE DID -- WHAT SHE CONSIDERED OUT OF LINE.

THE OWNER OOF THE 76ers, MICHAEL RUBEN, FORMED A GROUP CALLED THE REFORMER LINES TO BRING ATTENTION TO THIS AND TRY TO ESSENTIALLY REFORM SYSTEM.

>> LET'S CONTRAST THAT WITH ANOTHER CASE THAT GOT VERY LITTLE ATTENTION AND SOMETHING YOU WRITE ABOUT IN THE BOOK, A MAN NAMED THOMAS BARRETT.

TELL US ABOUT HIM.

>> THOMAS BARRETT WAS A PHARMACIST DOWN SOUTH, DOWN IN GEORGIA.

AND HE STOLE SOME DRUGS FROM THE PHARMACY HE WAS AT, BECAME ADDICTED TO THEM SO HE LOST HIS JOB AND THEN BECAME HOMELESS, LOST HIS FAMILY AND WAS IN AND OUT OF SORT OF ALCOHOL ABUSE.

STOLE A CAN OF BEER, $2 CAN OF BEER FROM A GROCERY STORE, GOT ARRESTED FOR THAT, WAS FINED, WAS UNABLE TO PAY THE FINE, AND IN SOME PLACES THEY HAVE PRIVATIZED PROBATION.

ESSENTIALLY IT'S A PRIVATE COMPANY THAT SUPERVISES YOU, AND THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T PAY ANY MONEY FOR THAT.

YOU, THE PERSON ON PROBATION, PAY THE MONEY.

SO NOW HE'S TRYING TO PAY MONEY FOR A PRIVATE COMPANY, PAYS A FINE, AND ALSO THEY START ATTING THINGS ON LIKE ELECTRONIC MONITORING, DRUG TESTING, ALL OF WHICH COMES AT A COST.

AND HE WAS SELLING HIS BLOOD TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THOSE PAYMENTS, AND EVENTUALLY HE JUST FELL SO FAR BEHIND HE ENDED UP PAYING A $1,000 IN FINES FOR THIS $2 CAN OF BEER AND FEES TO THE COMPANY.

AND BECAUSE HE COULDN'T KEEP UP WITH PAYMENTS ENDED UP DOING A YEAR IN JAIL.

AGAIN, NOT BECAUSE HE COMMITTED ANY CRIME, JUST BECAUSE HE COULDN'T MAKE HIS PAYMENTS.

>> WHAT I THINK I HEAR YOU SAYING IS PEOPLE BASICALLY GET LOCKED UP FOR NOT HAVING MONEY.

IS THAT -- >> YEAH, THE SYSTEM -- SO WHAT HAPPENED WAS AS WE CREATED THIS SYSTEM OF MASS INCARCERATION AND MASS SUPERVISION, THIS HAPPENS AT THE SAME TIME AS A MAJOR TAXPAYER REVOLT IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE START TO REDUCE SOCIAL SERVICES AND SUPPORTS.

WE CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO RAISE TAXES TO PAY FOR SOMEBODY TO BE ON PROBATION, TO PAY FOR SOMEBODY TO GO TO PRISON, SO WE'RE TRYING TO DO ALL THIS TOUGH ON CRIME STUFF ON THE CHEAP AS ELECTED OFFICIALS.

AND A NATURAL OUTGROWTH OF THAT IS TO CHARGE PEOPLE TO GO TO JAIL, TO CHARGE PEOPLE TO HAVE A PUBLIC DEFENDER, TO CHARGE COURT FEES, AND CHARGE PEOPLE TO BE ON PROBATION AND PAROLE.

SO NOW YOU'RE TAKING THIS GROUP OF FOLKS THAT WASN'T REALLY MAKING IT ALL THAT WELL TO BEGIN WITH AND SAYING YOU'VE GOT TO PULL EXTRA MONEY OUT OF YOUR MAUKT TO BE ABLE TO PAY FOR YOUR PROBATION.

WHEN I INTERVIEWED PROBATION OFFICERS ABOUT THIS, THEY HATE IT.

THEY HATE HAVING TO CHASE PEOPLE AROUND FOR MONEY, AND HOW MUCH OF THEIR TIME GOES INTO STRATEGIZING HOW TO GET THE MONEY OUT OF THIS PERSON SO THEY'RE DOING THINGS LIKE SHOWING UP ON THE DAYS THAT CHECKS ARRIVE BEFORE THE GUY'S WIFE AND CHILDREN GET A CHANCE AT THAT CHECK.

>> ARE YOU SERIOUS?

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

>> THINK ABOUT IT AS A PROBATION OFFICER BECAUSE HALF OF YOUR SALARY IS COMING FROM THOSE FEES.

>> SO NOW THE QUESTION BECOMES WHAT'S A BETTER WAY?

BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE WHERE SOME PEOPLE MIGHT BE LISTENING TO OUR CONVERSATION AND THEY'LL SAY, OKAY, THAT SOUNDS BAD.

BUT IF SOMEBODY'S COMMITTED A MAJOR CRIME, SOMEBODY'S HURT SOMEBODY, SOMEBODY'S KILLED SOMEBODY, SOMEBODY'S RAPED SOMEBODY, SOMEBODY'S BURGLED MY HOUSE, STOLEN MY CAR, I WANT SOMEBODY TO FOLLOW UP TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE DOING WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING.

IS THERE A BETTER WAY?

>> A COUPLE DIFFERENT OPTIONS I THINK THAT ARE OUT THERE.

ONE IS LESS IS MORE WHEN IT COMES TO THIS.

LITERALLY THE GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK SIGNED LEGISLATION TWO YEARS AGO CALLED THE LESS IS MORE ACT.

AND THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO CUT A BUNCH OF NONSENSE OUT OF NEW YORK STATE'S PAROLE SYSTEM SO THAT PEOPLE CAN BE VIOLATED FOR LESS -- FEWER THINGS, SO FOR EXAMPLE STAYING OUT PAST CURFEW, WHICH IS KIND OF AN OLD SCHOOL THING.

PEOPLE WORK NIGHT JOBS NOW, AND NEW YORK CITY IS 24 HOURS A DAY.

SO THINGS LIKE THAT, GETTING RID OF THE TECHNICAL VIOLATIONS THAT ALSO SHORTEN THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT YOU'RE ON PAROLE.

SO EVERY 30 DAYS YOU DON'T GET A VIOLATION IN NEW YORK WILL BE 30 DAYS YOU BEHAVE, YOU GET 30 DAYS OFF YOUR PAROLE.

SO IF YOU GOT THREE YEARS OF PAROLE AND NEVER MISBEHAVE, YOU'RE DONE IN A YEAR AND A HALF.

A LOT OF STATES HAVE DONE THINGS TO SHRINK THE FOOTPRINT AND PUNITIVENESS OF PROBATION AND PAROLE.

SOME STATES LIKE CALIFORNIA AND ALSO CAPTURED THE SAVINGS AND PUT THAT MONEY INTO MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT, VICTIM SERVICES AND THINGS LIKE THAT IN THEIR COUNTIES.

SO CALIFORNIA REDUCED THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE UNDER SUPERVISION BY 170,000 PEOPLE AND PUT ABOUT 150 TO $200 MILLION A YEAR OUT TO THEIR COUNTIES TO PROVIDE SERVICES AND SUPPORTS.

SO THOSE ARE -- THOSE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS STATES AND COUNTIES COULD DO.

I ALSO SUGGEST THAT PEOPLE CONSIDER ABOLISHING SUPERVISION SO, FOR EXAMPLE, MISDEMEANORS.

SOME OF THESE STATES DOWN SOUTH THAT HAVE HAD THESE PAY TO BE ON PROBATION SITUATIONS PRIVATE COMPANIES HAVE ABOLISHED THEIR SUPERVISION PERIOD, AND IT KIND OF DOESN'T MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE.

YOU CAN STILL ORDER A PERSON TO GO TO DRUG TREATMENT.

YOU CAN STILL ORDER THEM TO GET ANGER MANAGEMENT CLASS AND THEN COME BACK EVERY SIX MONTHS SO YOU DON'T ACTUALLY NEED TO PAY A BUNCH OF PEOPLE TO CHASE THEM AROUND TO CATCH THEM DOING STUFF THAT YOU MAY NOT CARE THAT MUCH ABOUT.

SO THERE'S DEFINITELY THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN DO.

PART OF THE REASON I WROTE THE BOOK IS BECAUSE A LOT OF ELECTED OFFICIALS HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT WHAT KIND OF CONTRIBUTION THIS IS MAKING TO THEIR SYSTEMS.

IN NEW YORK, FOR EXAMPLE, IT WAS COSTING OVER $800 MILLION A YEAR FOR TECHNICAL PAROLE VIOLATIONS, PART OF THE REASON THAT GOVERNOR HOCHUL SIGNED THE LESS IS MORE ACT.

>> DO YOU -- YOU KNOW, BUT YOU CAN SEE WHERE FOR ELECTED OFFICIALS, YOU KNOW, THAT NEXT ELECTION COMES AROUND AND IT'S LIKE WHY DID YOU MAKE IT LESS TOUGH ON CRIMINALS?

WHY DID YOU, YOU KNOW, DEFUND THE CORRECTIONS DEPARTMENT?

WHY DID YOU -- YOU KNOW, IT'S THE CLASSIC YOU'RE SOFT.

HOW DO YOU ARGUE WITH THAT?

>> I THINK THAT IT'S -- IT'S INTERESTING TO THINK ABOUT THE SYSTEM WE HAVE NOW AND IMAGINE DEPLOYING THE RESOURCES WE PUT INTO IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

SO IMAGINE INSTEAD OF HAVING A BUNCH OF BUREAUCRATS FOLLOW PEOPLE AROUND AND HAVE THEM PEE IN A CUP AND VIOLATE THEM FOR NONCRIMINAL ACTS, IF WE PUT THAT INTO DRUG TREATMENTS OR PUT THAT INTO JOBS OR PUT THEM INTO HOUSING, I THINK WHEN YOU TALK TO THE PUBLIC ABOUT THINGS LIKE THAT AND EVEN A LOT OF ELECTED OFFICIALS, THEY CAN SEE THAT THERE COULD BE A REASONABLE TRADEOFF HERE.

NOT WHEN YOU JUST DO NOTHING, BUT WHERE YOU DO SOMETHING BUT THAT THAT SOMETHING MAKES MORE SENSE.

WHEN I INTERVIEWED FOR MY JOB WITH MAYOR BLOOMBERG, THAT'S EXACTLY THE CONVERSATION I HAD WITH HIM.

I SAID IMAGINE IF I CAME TO YOU WITH $80 MILLION, WHICH WAS MY BUDGET AND, YOU KNOW, 30,000 TROUBLED AND TROUBLING SOULS AND SAID DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO FIX THIS PROBLEM, I'M PRETTY SURE WHAT YOU WOULDN'T DO IS RUN OUT AND HIRE A BUNCH OF CIVIL SERVICE PROTECTED, DISINTERESTED BUREAUCRATS TO HAVE THEM MEET WITH THEM FOR 5 MINUTES.

YOU HAVE A CASELOAD OF 100 PEOPLE, 5 MINUTES WOULD BE A LOT TO MEET WITH THEM ONCE A WEEK, RIGHT?

I'M PRETTY SURE YOU WOULDN'T DO THAT.

HE SAID I WOULDN'T DO THAT.

I HAVEN'T BEEN TO YOUR PROBATION DEPARTMENT, BUT I'M BETTING THAT'S WHAT YOU GOT RIGHT NOW.

AND HE LOOKED OVER TO HIS MAYOR DEPUTIES AND THEY SAID THAT'S PRETTY MUCH WHAT WE GOT.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

WHEN YOU GET A FEW MINUTES WITH MOST ELECTED OFFICIAL, THEY'RE KIND OF WITH YOU ON THAT ONE.

IT'S DIFFERENT THAN PRISON.

THIS IS -- AND I'M NOT SAYING ALL THE PEOPLE IN PRISON NEED TO BE THERE, BUT IN PRISON AT LEAST YOU HAVE INCAPSITATION.

THESE FOLKS ARE WALKING AROUND ON THE STREET TODAY WITHOUT ENOUGH RESOURCES TO MAKE IT, AND WE'RE SPENDING A TON OF MONEY ON CURFEW VIOLATIONS.

IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, AND A LOT OF POLITICIANS WHEN THEY HEAR THAT, THEY BELIEVE IT.

>> WHAT'S KEEPING YOU GOING?

BECAUSE IT WOULD SEEM THAT YOU'VE SEEN A LOT.

I MEAN YOU'VE SEEN THE TRENDS GO EITHER WAY.

I'M JUST SORT OF CURIOUS LIKE HOW YOU -- HOW YOU MAINTAIN YOUR OPTIMISM.

>> YEAH, SO I'VE BEEN IN THIS 43 YEARS NOW.

I STARTED, YOU KNOW, 1980 AS A HOUSE PARENT AT A GROUP HOME.

AND FOR THE FIRST, YOU KNOW, 30 PLUS YEARS, THE PRISON POPULATION WENT UP EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

AND YOU COULD FILL A VERY SMALL ROOM WITH THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY CARED ABOUT THAT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN PRISON AND THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS.

MOST PEOPLE WERE JUST ENTHUSIASTICALLY CHEERING THAT ON.

AND NOW FOR THE LEST DECADE PLUS THE CONVERSATION HAS CHANGED FOR THAT.

THERE'S BEEN MORE NUANCED CONVERSATION.

THERE'S A LOT MORE PEOPLE EVEN YOUNG PEOPLE -- I USED TO BE THE WEIRD DAD FOR MY KIDS, RIGHT, THAT I WAS THE GUY THAT WORKED WITH ALL THE CRIMINAL.

NOW I'M KIND OF COOL BECAUSE I WORK IN MASS INCARCERATION.

AND, YOU KNOW, MY KIDS FRIENDS SEND ME THEIR RÉSUMÉS TO HELP THEM FIND JOBS.

I HALF JOKE ABOUT THAT, BUT THERE'S A DIFFERENCE.

THERE'S A DIFFERENCE NOW THAT YOUNG PEOPLE IN PHILANTHROPY, RESEARCHERS, OFFICIALS ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT THE COLLATERAL CONSEQUENCES OF THIS MASS INCARCERATION THAT WE BUILT THAT IS SOMEWHAT UNPRECEDENTED FROM A HISTORICAL STANDPOINT AND THE RACIAL SORT OF DISPARITIES AND UNFAIRNESS THAT GOES ALONG WITH THAT AND ITS EFFECTIVENESS.

AND THE FACT WE CAN HAVE THAT CONVERSATION TODAY, WE REALLY COULDN'T HAVE IT 30 YEARS AGO IN A SERIOUS WAY, THAT KIND OF KEEPS ME HOPEFUL.

DOESN'T MEAN I BELIEVE NOBODY SHOULD EVER BE CONFINED FOR OUR SAFETY.

I DO BELIEVE SOME PEOPLE SHOULD BE.

AND I KNOW SOME PEOPLE DON'T, THEY THINK IT SHOULD ALL BE ABOLISHED.

I'M NOT ONE OF THEM, BUT I THINK WAY FEWER PEOPLE SHOULD BE LOCKED UP.

AND I THINK WAY FEWER AND MAYBE EVEN NO PEOPLE, AT LEAST IN SOME GROUPS OF PEOPLE SHOULD BE UNDER SUPERVISION.

WE CAN DO EVEN BETTER.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.