- [Announcer] This is a production of PBS Charlotte - Billions in potential investment, one big decision.

Tonight, local leaders go head to head, over the proposed 1% transit tax increase on next week's Mecklenburg County ballot.

Find out what it means for your community, your commute, and your wallet on a special "Carolina Impact."

(bright upbeat music) Good evening, thanks so much for joining us for this "Carolina Impact" special transit tax forum.

I'm Amy Burkett.

On Tuesday, Mecklenburg County voters face one of the biggest decisions in our region's future, whether to raise the sales tax by one percentage point to 8.25%, to fund a multi-billion dollar project that would expand rail and bus service, as well as add roads and other related projects.

Supporters say, "It's a once-in-a-generation opportunity to tackle traffic."

Opponents argue, "It's the wrong time to ask taxpayers to pay more and express concerns about trust including who manages the process."

Tonight, we're bringing together four local voices, two for and two against, to help us better understand the issue.

I've asked panelists to keep their answers to about one minute, and rebuttals, to 30 seconds.

We wrote each side on a piece of paper and put it in a basket beforehand, and pulled out to see which one goes first.

And we will start with the folks against the transit attacks and we will begin by introducing Reverend Dr.

Ricky Woods.

Appreciate you being here, sir, Thanks so much for your time.

- Thank you, Amy, for having us.

- You are the senior minister at First Baptist Church-West, and a former senior economist with the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

I wanna give you your opportunity to give us one minute off the top as to why you oppose the transit attacks.

- Well, I opposed the transit attacks for a number of reasons, to begin with.

The state of North Carolina's responsible for roads, not local citizens.

40% of this tax will go toward paying for local roads.

The state currently has an $8 billion surplus money that they have collected from taxpayers to take care of services for the state that they refuse to pay.

I think, it's time for local citizens to hold the state responsible for their obligation for roads.

The second reason I am against the tax is, this will be the third significant tax increase for Mecklenburg County citizens in the last two years.

The tax for school bonds took place on property bills that came out this past August.

The county commission raised property taxes in their current budget, and now, this tax on top of that.

And for that reason and more, I'm opposed.

- Thank you, appreciate you.

Next up, I wanna introduce David Howard.

He's with Yes for Meck, he's an advocate.

He's a former Charlotte City Council member and a former North Carolina Department of Transportation Chief Deputy Secretary.

David, thanks so much for being with us.

- Thank you for having us, Amy.

- Grateful for your time.

Please share with us why you support the transit tax.

- Well, first of all, I wanna remind people that the only way that we participate in this economy as citizens is being able to get to jobs and education, healthcare and those things that matter.

And transportation is the main way to do that.

If you think about the fact that the stars have aligned in a way I haven't seen in my career, which is for the Senate and the House and the governor to agree on something.

Tell me the last time anybody that happened.

For Charlotte, Mecklenburg County, and the six towns to agree on something, don't remember that happening.

And then you go to the number of Democrats and Republicans that are agreeing on this.

It just doesn't happen.

We've been waiting since we started building our mass transit system and come back to this.

Amy, it's been 27 years for me waiting for this opportunity to do this.

Every major city I've been to around the country in the world have incredible mass transit systems.

In order for Charlotte to compete moving forward, we're gonna have to do the same thing.

- Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Next up, I'd like to introduce you to Ismaail Qaiyim.

He is against the transit tax.

He is an attorney with Queen City Community Law Firm, and a core member of the Charlotte Housing Justice Coalition.

Ismaail, thanks so much for being with us.

- Thanks Amy, appreciate it.

- Share with us why you don't support the transit tax.

- Yes, so again, as a member of the Housing Justice Coalition, our focus is housing as a human right.

We believe it's a necessary thing that everybody should have.

So first and foremost, we believe that ultimately, the transit tax is going to result in an increase in gentrification and displacement, particularly of legacy, historically African American communities and working-class communities.

But fundamentally, we also believe that this transit tax, as it is proposed, is not really about transit, but it's more about economic development and capital investment.

And the transit aspect of it is really meant to spur that investment to the benefit of the business community, which is supporting the Yes for Meck campaign to the tune of $3 million.

We also as well believe that there hasn't been significant enough transparency, around this process, and that stakeholders are not fully informed of how this referendum came to exist.

And so for all of these reasons, we believe that this is not the time for this, and we really should ask our elected officials to come back with something better.

- Thank you.

Our final panelist this evening, Tonya Jameson, with Yes for Meck.

She's an advocate, she's an employee at Leading on Opportunity and a former Charlotte Observer reporter.

We'd love to hear your reasoning for supporting the transit tax.

- Yeah, thank you, Amy.

As you mentioned, I am full-time with Leading on Opportunity and one of the things that we know is that transportation is one of the key barriers.

We were ranked last in 2014 in economic mobility.

Leading on Opportunity was created in 2017, after our opportunity task force report came out, and we identified transportation as one of the reasons that families can't get ahead while families that are struggling to keep food on the table, to keep a roof above their heads is because they don't have access to transportation for jobs, workforce development programs, and for education.

So if we want to build a region in which our children can thrive regardless of what zip code or neighborhood they grow up in, then we have to improve our transportation system.

National studies show that a child who grows up in a household with a commute time of 15 minutes or less, increases their earnings by 7% when they become an adult.

Why will we cut those children off from opportunities now when we can change it and begin building the infrastructure for the transportation system we need for our growing region?

- Thank you so much.

Appreciate your help, Tonya.

Okay, so let's get to the fun friends.

We're gonna talk about questions.

How do we handle this?

Let's talk a little bit, I wanna hear from our friends who oppose the tax and either one of you can answer, and again, we'll have an opportunity to rebut and hear the other side.

I've heard that you argue that this tax is disproportionately affecting low and middle-income families.

Talk to us about that, and do you have a better idea?

- Well, it definitely is impacting low and moderate-income families worse, because of the other taxes that they're already having to pay.

In 2027, Mecklenburg County will start the process for re-evaluation of homes.

The last re-evaluation saw property values escalate in some neighborhoods close to uptown as much as 400%.

So the taxes then were taxed at that new reval area.

So every time that there is a tax increase, those who are paying more and earning less, are bearing a disproportionate share of the responsibility.

- Wanna hear from those supporting the transit tax?

Your response to that.

- Sure, I'll take that one on.

If you think about the fact that in any community, government only has two ways to pay for stuff and that is taxes and fees.

And one of the things that we know is that in addition to all the stuff that Dr.

Woods spoke about with housing, if you can't get to a job, it doesn't matter.

And in this community right now, we're very car-dependent.

Maintaining the used car is about six, $7,000 a year.

If you take into account the fact that that goes up 7% every year, and we're talking about $11 a month, that is kind of what it is.

This is how we make sure that we keep people involved in our economy so that they can get the jobs, they can get to the opportunities that make their lives better for every reason that the reverend just spoke about.

- Okay, you guys get the next question.

So I wanna talk about, I wanna continue on that vein.

77's a nightmare, I drive it every day.

- Me and you both.

- So talk to us about how does this funding, do we know that it will really support reducing congestion?

How do we get suburban folks?

'Cause it would be hard for me to take a train even if one existed.

I live over the border in South Carolina.

How do we encourage people to take advantage of, how do we know that the investment will do what we hope it will do?

- We know it'll do what we hope it will do.

Now, we have to also understand that it's not going to be overnight, but the first thing that is going to be impacted and changed will be the better bus system, which is going to have increased bus frequency.

So if you live in the suburbs just across the border, you'll be able to take one of the express buses up into the Charlotte area.

You'd have to get off at a Charlotte stop down there.

But you take an express bus into the uptown area to get to work.

So one of the first things is the better bus system, 15-minute frequency for the most 15 used routes, as well as synchronized lights.

So those buses don't get stopped at green lights.

And in addition to that, we also have microtransit, which will be able to serve communities that are not served currently by the CATS system.

And so they'll be able to get on a microtransit line, and then be dropped off at a mass transit site.

So that is the beginning steps.

And those, we're going to initially start working on when we implement and pass this transportation referendum.

- Okay, friends, your response to that.

- Right, so I think it's really important to understand that this plan is a result of multiple political compromises at the state level.

And so certainly, microtransit is a good thing, express buses are a good thing.

But currently, the city of Charlotte owns the assets of CATS and has the ability to pass a quarter cent sales tax to address the issues of busing and commuter times as well.

We don't believe that a 14.2% tax increase on people that ride the bus the most is the best way to accomplish this, however.

- Okay, so next question.

- Rebut.

- Can we rebut that?

You said 30 seconds.

- You were the pro, they were rebutting.

Let's do it.

- Oh.

- You can rebut it.

- I'm just saying- - We're having a conversation.

We're going, let's go.

I'm just saying it is not a 14% tax.

When you go look at your ballot, it is going to say a 1% sales tax to improve transportation in our region.

And as David mentioned before, it will cost $11 a month if you pass this transportation referendum.

- For the poorest of the poor in the community, - Right, yes, for the poorest of the poor.

- Okay, in addition to the- - Go for it.

- The increase from city services that came out on the last tax bill when the city, increased water and water sewage rates in addition to the property tax, and in addition to other fees.

So they keep saying it's only $11, but you keep pack-stacking up dollar, after dollar, after dollar with additional, and other taxes in addition to these.

And then when you start to look at this whole picture, it is far more than that.

- And it is a 14% increase because it goes from 7.25% to 8.25%.

So the increase is around 14%.

They keep saying it's a one cent sales tax, but we need to say what the actual increase- - [Amy] We're gonna move- - We're saying a 1% sales tax.

We're not saying it's a one cent.

- Right.

- We say 1%.

- 1%, okay, we're gonna move on, folks.

- 14%.

- We're gonna move on.

It is your turn for the first question.

- Okay.

- This time, one of the things I have heard people concerned about is displacing folks who live along the light rail.

What happened in University City area as we went North and some displacement.

Talk to us about that and your position on that.

- Well, as I currently understand it, there is not an anti-displacement plan.

And we should learn the lessons from history.

Every time Charlotte has done a transportation plan to get people to jobs and to remove traffic congestions, it has disproportionate impacted minority communities, specifically, African American communities.

When I-277 was done, it impacted Brooklyn.

When I-16 was done, it impacted other historic African American communities and move them.

And this plan is gonna have the same impact on African American communities near that rail system, and particularly, off West Boulevard.

We needed to have conversations with people in those neighborhoods, they come up with an anti-displacement plan, so that those persons could be able to stay in their properties and age in place.

And we're not doing that under this current plan.

- Your feedback.

- I mean, the reverend gonna disagree on that.

This community has invested money in trying to make sure we're affordable for years.

Remember, you have a multifamily strategy and you have a single family strategy.

You mainly talked about the single family.

From a multi-family standpoint, we've invested $400 million in affordable housing, across this community.

As it relates to the single family, there's state programs, county programs, there are things there, and should we do more?

Absolutely.

But if you look at how the rail has affected Tavola and Airwood, there's been no development.

So it's not the rail, it's the fact that a lot of these communities that the doctor talked about are close in.

Do we need to do something about it?

Councilman Mitchell just referred to a committee last Monday to talk about this in these areas.

So they're working on it.

- Okay, you get the next question.

Talking about long-term economic benefits, jobs, other benefits, share with us.

- Well, I mean, Tonya, you can tag on this one.

I mean, what we know is that for every billion dollars of investment, the economists tell us that there's about 50,000 jobs that result from that.

So I've said this since I was on city council.

I mean, you know, the best economic development plan, is the best crime prevention plan, it's a job.

This is an opportunity to pull more people in this community into the economy to make sure they're contributing.

So Tonya, did you want to add to that?

- Yeah, I just wanna make sure we also focus on the fact that we are gonna be connecting people to job and transit nodes.

When we look talking about affordable housing, one of the part of the city's plan is investments in our strategic areas.

And that's making sure that affordable housing projects, or not projects, but developments, are built near transportation hubs and transportation centers.

So we can give people access to jobs.

One of the also things with this plan that they've committed to doing is saying that also, all the CMS schools will be connected to one of the mass transit routes.

So we'll be able to get kids, especially, when we think about our children who are going to magnet schools, and their ability to then be able to use transportation to get to that magnet school.

- Okay, it is your chance to share your perspective about concerns about economic development related to this tax.

- Sure, I'll take it.

So I think there are concerns about economic investment and development, but the reality is that the money that has been invested to build affordable housing, a lot of that has already come from the taxpayers.

And so again, this plan is asking taxpayers to foot an additional bill of around maybe $240, $250 a year.

Another thing about this particular plan is that no other project can be completed, until the Red Line is 50% complete.

And construction on the Red Line, as far as we know, hasn't really started yet.

And again, Charlotte controls buses and other assets that we're talking about in reference to CATS.

So we don't believe an extra tax is fair.

- So we need to wrap that?

- That's not correct though that no other project, we cannot start building rail, until the Red Line is 50% complete.

But the other project around better bus system, improving our roads, that's gonna start immediately.

And so people have to keep that in mind that what they're going to see is going to be immediate when it comes to road improvement and also access to better busing.

- But we were specifically talking about rail in reference to economic investment.

So you're right, no other rail projects can start, until the Red Line is 50% complete.

And I think it's important that people understand that that's a fact in this case.

- Okay, you've got the next question, and the next question, I've heard concern about trust related, and transparency with it.

Share with us the perspective of that.

- Well, here's what the plan is saying.

The plan is saying we want the voters to give us the opportunity to create an independent commission that will have complete authority, over all transit plans going forward, with the freedom to make any changes in those transportation plans that they decide without any direct accountability to the voters, or to any other elected body.

They will have the freedom to create their own police force.

And in an environment where we're seeing more and more autocratic behavior in our country and less democracy, now is not the time to turn our authority, our rights and powers over to a single commission that could do whatever they please.

- [Amy] And your response?

- New York, Chicago, New Jersey, all of these have massive transit systems, and they are run by a transit authority that do not have elected officials on those transit authorities.

I am actually encouraged that we don't have elected officials on the transit authorities, so we don't have to worry about them being necessarily influenced by who their biggest donor is.

We have people with the technical expertise.

And the other key part of this is that we will have an opportunity for people who are individuals, who are actual riders, and users of transit, also to be on this committee making decisions.

- You wanna get a quick response then?

- Just to remember, the great thing about this is, being a former elected official is this is one less thing for an elected official to worry about.

They will have some say so on who's on authority, but having a commission which is focused every day, all day on a mass transit system is why this has happened to Tonya's point across the country, - If I could just say this though, but why do they have the freedom to make changes without any accountability to the voters?

Darien is my largest problem with this, a agency, a group with this kind of authority, economic responsibility and power who is completely independent without any accountability to any of the voters.

- They have accountability to the body that appointed them, and that body has accountability to the voters.

So that doesn't concern me that they're gonna be just power-unchecked.

- It's a concern for us though, especially, because if you look at Ned Kern, who is a real estate developer, has been appointed to this body, even before this vote has taken place.

So again, we believe this is more about economic development and pushing the aspirations of the business community through a takeover of the city transit system or the Charlotte transit system, rather than really a plan for improving transit for the poorest residents of the city.

- Amy, city council has nine of the 11 are African American.

The county commission has five of nine that are African American.

I don't think they're not gonna have the best interest of our community at heart.

I sat on that body, they care.

If they have somebody on the commission that doesn't show that they want to do the right thing, I promise you they'll replace them.

We're not worried about that.

- We're gonna move on to the next question.

One of the things on both sides is confusion of misunderstanding all the details.

It's a big complex situation.

I wanna give you an opportunity to share and shed some light on some of the things that you think are misunderstood related to that.

- Sure.

I mean, the first thing is that this is as much about growth in regional planning, and you said a while ago, we both live on Southwest, you're a little Southwest of Charlotte, me at Southwest, Charlotte.

This is about making sure we have a regional transit system going forward.

I mean, the Blue Line will extend in New York one day.

The Red Line will extend into our deal.

So the one of the big pieces that we're building a system, again, that makes Charlotte competitive for years to come, just like those cities that we keep talking about.

The other thing is that I keep hearing these things about microtransit.

Microtransit is a great way to kind of figure out where our need is.

I've kind of heard from the staff that if for some reason, they see a lot of people calling in one area, that's an opportunity to scale up to a bigger vehicle every time.

And that's not us just kind of guessing at it.

We actually ask to say maybe it's a passenger van, maybe it's a sprinter van, maybe it becomes a bus route.

So the microtransit is a very smart way to look at how we grow our system.

So there are a lot of great things to this.

- Your response.

- Yeah, so I think it's really important to understand that a transit plan on this scale, when you look at other cities where transit plans have been passed, there are generally multiple sources of taxation that exist.

Microtransit is great and it'll cost 220, but generally, a single ride like similar to a Lyft or an Uber is much more expensive.

So here, we have a proposed federal subsidy, but we don't have any support from the state.

We're being taxed again for roads where there's an $8 billion surplus for roads, and we don't really have any other way to pay for this other than going back to taxpayers in addition to what taxpayers have been asked to pay out for at time.

- Go ahead, Tonya.

- Again, government only has two ways, taxes and fees.

That's the only way we do stuff.

And truth be told, fares have never been born in 10 to 15% of a cut's budget.

So we're not gonna do it with fares anyway.

That's not the way it does roads.

Everything in this country when it comes to transportation is subsidized.

That's what we do.

- Okay, it's your turn for the next question.

We're talking about the underserved community, and there's been a lot of talk around the East side of Charlotte, and the hopes of being able to get more services.

Talk to us from your perspective, what are you looking for?

What are you hoping for?

- Sure.

So in reference to the East side of Charlotte, I think this goes back to the issue of broken promises, particularly, in reference to rail.

So initially, the Silver Line was supposed to run from the airport to Matthews and the current iteration, it runs basically close to the airport, to the Bojangles Coliseum.

So because of issues with cost, because of issues with the economy, the plans for the Silver Line have changed over time.

And again, I think the thing that we're trying to point out is with the independent authority that this plan creates, the uncertain economic environment, and also as well issues with the federal government, again, this plan requires a federal subsidy and our government is currently shut down.

We believe that, you know, it's very likely that things could change, even because of cost, but let alone even potentially because of who ultimately ends up on this authority.

So our residents, our neighbors in Matthews and in East Charlotte, and particularly, organizations like Charlotte East, which advocate for the East side have come out against this plan.

Charlotte East has come out against this plan as well, because of this history of broken promises.

- Your response related to the East side?

- Yeah, the Silver Line, will be the largest infrastructure investment on the East side.

- And so- - In the city's history.

- In the city's history.

So granted, it is not going all the way to Matthews right now, the city is still, CATS are still committed to creating the Silver Line.

They're still having studies.

I've sat on these task force that they're doing, specifically around the Silver Line.

And then also, just to add in too, we talked about increased bus frequency.

Right now, the number nine, which goes down Central Avenue is the only bus that has a 15 minute frequency, but the East side will get three other bus routes, Lawyers Road, Alabama Road, will also go to 15 minute frequency.

And then again, microtransit will also connect people who are on the East side who are not currently on one of the major bus routes to a bus route.

So we are seeing investments on the East side.

And the other thing I'll say too is that we have to be patient.

The Red Line was promised to the northern part of town.

They didn't get it initially when they wanted to, but now, it's in the queue.

The street car was promised to go all the way down to Eastland Mall area, and we didn't get it.

And I live on the East side 'cause I grew up over here.

Not grew up, but adulthood over here, Margaret Wallace area.

So I understand the concerns of the East side, but now, the Gold Line is in the budget too.

So the Silver Line will happen.

It's just not gonna happen tomorrow.

- Let me add something about the East side.

I think it's important for voters to know, and that is the Plaza Midwood where business alliance, is voting no against the stacks.

- But the Belmont community is voting yes.

And the Belmont community is right there adjacent to Plaza Midwood.

- And just one point- - We're passionate, we're about out of time.

Gentlemen and ladies, I'm going to let everyone have a final word.

And so this is where we are.

It's been an exciting conversation, and I am very grateful for you.

I'm gonna start with Tonya, 30 seconds please.

- I grew up in a community that was a planned community, gave people access to grocery stores who were low income, access to good schools, and they were low income, surrounded by that area.

But what people did not have was access to transportation.

And so when I go home, I see people that I grew up with who grew up in affordable housing, subsidized housing, now as adults living in affordable housing, subsidized housing.

Our goal is to create that the people who are currently living in subsidized housing, living in hotels, their children will not be in the same situation.

- Okay, final thoughts, Ismaail?

- Great.

So again, myself, I live in along the West Boulevard corridor.

That's where I grew up, that's where I live currently.

And again, we believe that ultimately, this is gonna cause displacement.

There's been a lot of taxpayer money that's already been invested in transit.

There's a history of broken promises, displacement, anti-displacement measures were not included in the payback, the State Act, which ultimately creates this referendum.

And ultimately, I think you all as voters, have to trust your gut.

Do you want to foot the bill for more broken promises?

- Time's up.

David, your final word.

- Sure.

Again, Ismaail and I both grew up on the West Boulevard corridor, and actually because of my mom's schedule, I started riding the bus when I was six.

And I can tell you there are a lot of people that depend on our mass transit system.

As a matter of fact, 71% of the people that ride bus are African American.

61% of the people that ride the rail are African American.

And as far as it relates to trust, I mean, you know, again, I don't trust us not to get this opportunity again.

I mean, again, the stars have aligned, and we've got to take advantage of it.

- Reverend, your final word, - David says, "The stars have aligned."

I completely disagree.

Even if we pass this tax, we have no assurance that the current federal administration, will release the additional federal dollars that will be required to do this.

We've seen an administration that has clawed back money that had already been approved by Congress under the Inflation Reduction Act.

And given that Charlotte is viewed as a democratic city and how democratic cities have been treated by this administration, I don't think that there's any chance that we'll see one single federal dollar.

- Folks, thank you.

- They got three and a half years.

We'll see a couple dollars.

- Grateful, grateful, grateful, grateful to you.

As we wrap up tonight's discussion, one thing is clear, this decision will shape the future of how we move, connect, and grow as a community.

Whether you're for or against the proposed tax increase, your voice matters.

Take what you've heard tonight, and add to it by discussing with family and friends and doing your own research.

Make your voice heard by voting on Tuesday, November 4th.

Goodnight, my friends.

(bright upbeat music) - [Announcer] A production of PBS Charlotte.