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♪ (upbeat jazz music) - Welcome to "Roots, Race and Culture", a new show on PBS, Utah, where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences.

I'm Danor Gerald.

- Hey, and I'm Lonzo Liggins.

Transracial adoption is the joining of racially different parents and children together in adoptive families.

We wanted to find out what the transracial adoption experience was like here in Utah.

Now, we're joined here by two guests to help us explain just that.

- First, we have Jeff Mann.

You were born in Baltimore, adopted into Boise, Idaho at three weeks old.

Is that right?

- I was adopted at three weeks old, grew up in Boise and then at seven, we moved over to Africa.

But other than that, I spent time in Idaho and in Utah.

- And you also are on a board member or a coordinator of some adoption camps or agencies.

Is that right?

- Yeah.

- [Danor] Well, thank you for coming.

You have a lot of experience in this, so we appreciate you being here.

- Thank for having me.

- And also we have Jennica Anusua Galloway.

She's originally from Calcutta, India.

She has a bachelors in science and bachelor in fine arts from the university of Utah, and a masters of health science from John Hopkins university.

And you're currently a mental health professional, correct?

- Mm-hmm.

- You know what's funny is both of you guys, matter of fact, I just realized everyone on this stage has been to Africa, (Jeff and Jennica laugh) but me.

I just wanted to lay that out there.

Everyone's been in Africa but me, but, you know, before we get started with this, guys, there's some information, some context, we wanted to get into about the word transracial.

'Cause transracial, a lot of people, with me in particular, I tend to think of transracial as like transgender.

That's what I think of.

But it actually doesn't mean that.

It's obviously transracial with adoption.

The word trans just means, like, on the other side of, you know, or across.

So like transgender, across the other side, transracial, the other side of the racial.

- Transfer to a new bus, right?

(chuckles) - And another thing is the history of transracial adoption in America is pretty lengthy.

You know, it goes all the way back to, you know, as far back as, as World War II.

They were adopting children from, you know, from Japanese homes into white American families by the thousands.

And then they went on to, I believe it was the Korean War, where there was about 15,000 kids that were adopted to white families.

- [Danor] Wow.

- And then they also, you know, with black families as well, that started in 1968 to 1972, there was like 50,000 or so black kids that were adopted into white homes, right after the civil rights movement.

- This idea of adopting people in from a different culture, it goes all the way back to Moses.

I mean he was a Hebrew and was adopted by an Egyptian, right?

And so this is not like a brand new thing.

It's been around for centuries, right.

So we wanna know a little bit about your experiences.

Tell us what it was like for you growing up in a white culture.

- Yeah.

Well, so my sister was adopted before I was, and my mother also adopted another girl from India between the two of us, who unfortunately passed away right before coming to the United States to live here.

And so my mom kind of got I don't know if like transferred or bumped to adopting me.

When I came, I had my sister who had, like, lived here, you know, a little bit and had grown up here with our family.

And I immediately went to live with my grandmother and my mother and my sister.

So I had her in my life, but realistically growing up in Utah, in the east side of Utah, there was a lot of people who just didn't look like me and didn't have any root to the experience that I had had already in my young life.

So I kind of went around, in my childhood just assuming everything was like normal, fine.

You know, like, "Oh, I'm just like everybody else to a degree."

I'm also a cancer survivor.

And so when I went through that experience at a young age, I was also different in that way.

So I think I was already kind of in this mindset of like, "I'm not exactly like everyone around me.

Not everyone around me has to go to the hospital all the time and everyone around me maybe has as bad eyes as I do and has to wear these thick glasses, or has like their hair growing back in."

- So you had a lot of things to deal with beyond just being- - Yes.

- [Danor] Adopted into a new culture.

There was a lot going on there.

- Yeah.

Absolutely.

- [Danor] That's fascinating.

So I want to come back to you a little bit later.

I want to hear a little bit about what your experience was like because Jeff, you not only were in Idaho, which is a pretty white state, then you go to Africa, which is, then your family's the minority.

I mean, what was it like for you?

What was your experience?

- Yeah.

For me, I think I really started to see race the first time we moved to Africa.

- [Danor] Mm.

- And that's when I started to see, okay, here were kids who look like me, but I couldn't speak their language, I didn't understand their culture, And I actually, for myself, related more to the white kids that I met in Africa.

- So what age did you go to Africa?

- So when I was seven, we moved to Zimbabwe and we spent two years there and then we moved back to Idaho and my eighth grade year, at the end of middle school, I ended up, my dad was called as an LDS mission president and so I moved to South Africa.

- To go from Boise and then to step into Africa.

Wow.

- [Jeff] Yeah.

- You know, how was the transition with your parents?

I mean, did they prepare you for that?

- You know, my mom and my dad did a lot of stuff when we were in Boise to, they'd invite other black kids over to the house, she did a lot of stuff at the school for Black History Month and Martin Luther King Day, and tried to get the school involved and to do stuff to help us kind of feel at home.

- So your parents were active in helping, 'cause that's the question I have for both of you two, is, like, how active were your parents in keeping, you know, - Connected to your culture.

- Connected to your race?

- Right.

- Like, I mean, you grew up with black parents.

- Right, right.

- I assume.

(chuckles) - Right, right, right.

- You know, I had one black parent.

I luckily had him.

He was able to, you know, give me, kind of guide me through my racial experience.

So how was that for both of you?

- You've got the African-American community around you, even if it's a small one.

- Yeah.

- Because it is African-American, but I'm thinking for you Jennica.

I mean, being from India, it must have been really difficult to find something.

- Yeah.

So my mom used to send us to this thing called India Camp and I really still to this day, like, don't know exactly where it was and what we did.

Like, I remember what we did.

- [Lonzo] India Camp?

- Yeah.

- Okay.

- And she also had us, - That's interesting.

- With other Indian adoptees because she had friends who had adopted from India as well.

And we kind of, they called us the Sweethearts Club, not everyone was from India.

Some other people were from other parts of Asia, south Asia, but I was the youngest.

So by the time I came along, that group was a lot older than me.

And so I wasn't really as a part of it very long and so finding community was pretty hard for me.

So I think my mom really tried to celebrate that we were Indian, but she's also not of that culture so she couldn't really connect us to the foods or the things that were inherently intrinsic to a cultural experience that you can't really gain outside of being in it, if that makes sense.

- [Danor] Right.

Right.

What a challenge.

- You know, for me, I think I like what you said, 'cause my parents did a lot to take us to a barber shop and show us, "Okay, here's where you can get your hair cut."

And at the barbershop, I met a lot of black guys who were there.

The barbershop in Boise is right next to Boise State so a lot of the football players were there.

And so I saw guys who looked like me.

- So we spoke to former mayor, Jackie Biskupski, and asked her what her experience was like as an adoptive parent of a black child and here was the response that she gave us, and we want you guys to check it out and give us your feedback on that if you would.

- [Jeff] Awesome.

- As a parent who has adopted a child of a different race, I can tell you that love is not enough.

I have to raise my son, seeing him for exactly who he is and understand that my white privilege does not transfer to him.

Yes, it is difficult to have conversations with my son about the harsh realities he will face, but inevitably, he is going to feel the pain of racism.

So it is my responsibility to prepare him as best I can.

I didn't save my son from anything when I adopted him.

I was in my forties and about to give up on becoming a parent when he was brought into my life.

My son is such a blessing and my eyes have been opened in a profound way because of him.

I have always been an advocate and an ally for minorities, but now I am an anti-racist.

My role has evolved all because I was chosen to be a mother to my beautiful son.

- [Lonzo] Wow.

- Wow.

That's beautiful.

- What do you think?

- Yeah.

- That actually just strikes me because I've had conversations with people in my adult life who have reflected that too.

And I remember growing up hearing all the time, like, "Aren't you so lucky?

You're so lucky.

You're so lucky.

You're so lucky that," And it sort of started to become this thing.

Like, "Oh, I'm really lucky.

This thing was not something that I was inherent to have, this life that I have.

It's not something that I deserved or was owed."

- It's like somebody rolled the dice and you just struck gold.

- And like, "I'm so lucky that this white woman decided to take care of me and raise me in this white community."

And so I had a friend say a similar thing not long ago where she said, "You know, if you find a lucky penny, you don't tell the penny it's lucky that you found it.

You're lucky because you found it, right?"

And she was talking about her own adopted children.

Like, they're not lucky.

I'm the lucky one to have them.

And sorry, I hope I don't get too emotional, but I think for me, it's been like a journey of learning that because it also seeds right into your sense of worth.

- Thank you for sharing that.

That's very personal.

- [Lonzo] Yeah.

- And so good to hear that perspective.

Rachel Patton, who is a clinical social worker, as well as an adoption coordinator, is an adoptive mother.

And we want to hear from her and we would love for you to chime in, Jeff, after we hear her story.

- I think the biggest thing that I could recommend to families adopting outside of their race is number one, be prepared and know that you can do what's necessary to make that work and to make your children feel included.

And mirroring to me is the biggest thing, making sure that your children see other people of their race.

You know, we take our son to the barbershop, I take my daughter to a black beautician, making sure that you're going to any cultural events where they're exposed, hooking up with other adoptive families, or if you have friends of other races.

I think those are things that you have to make sure that you either have, or you are willing to seek out and expose your children to, before you adopt outside of your race.

- Wow.

Jeff, so what do you think?

She's given us a checklist.

- She gets the barber shop.

(everyone laughs) - She knows.

What do you think about that?

- You know, I love what she said and I go back to the barbershop.

For a young black kid, having their hair cut right for the first time, you just see a different light in their eyes, it's an excitement, and they kind of feel at home, but I think she's right.

I think parents have to realize when you adopt a kid outside your race, you're not only doing that for the short term, but your whole family's gonna be affected.

I think transracial adoption, it creates conversation and it automatically brings cultures together.

And I think by doing that, parents and families have to realize you're gonna have to learn a new culture, but also you're gonna have to help a kid learn your culture.

And so I think it's also a great conversation piece because if my parents are seen with, I'll give you an example.

When my dad picked us up as a little kid, flying home, he said the black people would come up and talk to him and, "Oh, the baby's so cute."

But he said he'd get these weird looks from the white people as if, you know, "Did his daughter get in trouble with the black guy?"

or, "Why is this older guy with this black baby?"

And I think that enables you to have a conversation and to talk about transracial adoption and talk about why you wanted to adopt and the benefits of adopting.

And so I think it's an easy way to talk to people and to get people are gonna approach you no matter what you do when you're involved with transracial adoption.

And that's why I think the education side comes because now, you can have a conversation with someone.

- I'm really curious to know what it's like on a daily basis, like when you started dating and, you know, what it was like in your neighborhoods.

I mean, what was that experience like?

Or interacting with other people of your own race?

Like when it came to like, for example, dating in high school.

Can you share a little bit about that?

- When I was in high school, sometimes I feel like people would date me 'cause I was like the rebellious choice.

Like I was an LDS and I was a brown girl.

So it was like, "Ooh, she's the exotic, spicy-" - I knew you were gonna say exotic!

- Like I got... You know, and even like adults in my life would be like, "Oh, well, they like you 'cause you're exotic."

And I was like, "I don't really know what that means."

Like, for a long time I'm like, "Oh, that's cool.

That's a good thing.

Like, that's cool."

- Which it kinda is!

- Then I started to realize, (Danor and Lonzo laugh) I didn't understand exactly what that meant.

And like, so does that just put me in a certain box?

Like, am I not myself?

Am I just this?

And, you know, I've had friends, like growing up, be like, "This is our brown friend.

This is our cute brown friend."

Like that was my title.

That's who I was.

All of my other friends got to be known by their name and like, "And she likes to do this."

And it was like, "This is Jennica and she's brown."

- Looking back at it now, now that you're adults and you've been able to see sort of the totality of your growing up, do you feel like you missed something?

- I, personally, I think yes and no.

Yes, for the point of I have my biological mom on Facebook.

And so I can see, you know, where she lives and the family and the interactions and kind of see that side of life that I don't know, having grown up in the LDS family.

I don't drink and I don't smoke and so those are all things that I really haven't experienced.

But on the other hand, I feel like having been adopted, especially to Utah, there's a lot more in my life happening because if something happens that involves the black race here in Utah, I have tons of people who will reach out to me and ask, "Okay, how should we react?

What should our response be?"

It happened two years ago when we had the protest in Salt Lake.

- And you have to represent the whole black... - And so now I'm thinking, "Okay, whatever I say, these white people are gonna follow or they're either gonna, this is their response."

And so I had people calling me that hadn't talked to in years.

"Hey, if I ever said anything to you that was racist.

I apologize."

(everyone laughs) Or I'd be at Café Del Rio and the guy in front of me, "Hey, times are hard.

Let me buy your food."

- Wow.

- Going to the grocery store, I had a lady, "Hey, let me help you find all your groceries."

And she went with aisle to aisle till I found everything, - Going out of their way.

- Going out of their way, when in reality, that made things more awkward than they were.

But also, being in the LDS religion, I had, you know, anything that happens to do with race within the church.

Now I have that dynamic that not only are they talking to me as a black person, but now based off my religion, now they want to know my experience.

And so I've had to really monitor what I post, what I say, - [Danor] Yeah.

- What I do because I know there's 10 families out there, - some feelings, you have to suppress them.

- There's families out there that are, "Hey, this is what he said so this must be cut and dry, what we need to do, this is what he believes."

- I imagine there is a certain lack of a support system.

Like, you can't just go to your dad and your mom or your siblings and talk about some of those challenges that you might be facing culturally for being black or for being a person of color because they don't really fully understand that experience, right?

You know, I mean, my dad will call me and talk to me during that whole time period.

And we would just talk through stuff about how we were feeling and that sort of thing.

And it's difficult when the majority of people, I would imagine, don't quite understand what you're experiencing, especially when they're in your own family.

Did you feel like your sisters could be there for you since... - Yeah.

I mean, my sister is very supportive of me and she's- - And she's from India as well - She is, yeah.

But I mean, we're just different people so we process things differently.

She's also in the mental health field so, my whole family is, my mom's a psychologist as well.

But I think with my mom, what's been really interesting is watching that transition for her over the past few years.

You know, we used to not really talk about the racist experiences my sister and I had.

And I think a lot of it had to do with my mom's desire to protect us and to feel like she was protecting us from a world that was harsh.

And then over time, we kind of were telling her like, "No, this was our lived experience.

We experienced racism pretty regularly."

- Do you feel you missed out on anything?

Being adopted into a white family, do you feel like there's something, there was a portion of you that that was missed?

- I think as a kid, yeah, absolutely.

There were times when, you know, I really felt resentful.

Like, I felt this weird mixture of, "I have to be grateful, and I am grateful and I'm so lucky."

But I'm resentful of that in a way as well because there so much I didn't gain.

I didn't get the language.

I didn't get to wear the clothes.

I didn't get to eat the food.

I didn't get to speak with people in my culture.

And I think for me, there's a unique element too, where I don't know my biological family.

I may not ever find her.

And so, I think feeling like I'll never get that chance to ever have to eat and see- - That connection.

- Yeah.

And, you know, I've thought like that movie "Lion", I remember being so jealous of him thinking like, and I had read the book first, but thinking, "Gosh, he found her!"

Or, "He went back to her!"

But if I found my biological mom, now she'd be stranger to me.

- [Danor] Yeah.

- Like, I wouldn't know her, but at the same time, I have this really deep internal sense inside me that I would recognize her at some level, because she- - [Danor] DNA.

- Yeah.

So I think that's something that I've always wanted, but I've never had.

And so there's a little bit of that, but I also know that had I not been adopted, I may not have survived.

- Wow.

- So there's a lot going on there as well where I'm really grateful.

- You know, I, let me, - Go for it.

- I just wanna, you know, being here, your experience, what would you say are some of the things that people in our community here in Utah can learn and what they should do to help other people in your situations?

Kids who are adopted into a different culture.

You know, how can we be more sensitive and help them with the hard things that you guys have dealt with?

- [Lonzo] Yeah.

That's a good point.

- I think one of the biggest things is just education.

Shows like this, podcasts, adoptions, foundations, camps, because one of the things that I see is some parents, I don't know if you experienced this.

I feel like some parents have adopted kids, they go the extreme.

So I've talked to parents before where they made sure their kid attended a school where the principal had to be black; now the piano teacher had to be black; the football coach had to be black.

They changed the kid's life so much so he could see black figures, which I understand what they're reasoning, but I'm like, "Don't go out of your way to do it."

You can bring people into their lives to mentor the kids and to help 'em to understand who they are and their culture, but you're kind of not letting that kid live an authentic, real life.

And so, when those kids grow up and they turn 18 and they go away from their family, your last name, if it was white, no longer protects you.

So once you're out there, people see you for who you are.

I remember going to the country club with my parents down in St. George.

And we went and had good food.

And I went one time without my parents and they saw the name and my dad's picture on the family account, but they saw me.

And then there was a question of, well, "This is for members only.

What are you doing here?"

And I said, "Well, you can look my name up."

But I didn't think about the fact that, "Hey, my last name doesn't fit the way I look and the picture of my dad doesn't key into who I am."

- Yeah.

Yes.

So they're thinking stolen ID or something like that.

- [Jeff] Yeah.

(Danor and Lonzo laugh) - Trying to break into the country club.

- And it's quite interesting that I took my dad two years ago over to India and I was in a store somewhere and our was asking my dad, you know, he's like, "how is that your son?

Is your wife black?"

And just didn't understand, you know, that hey, this is my dad who's white, who's older and stuff.

And so, I think really it's just about education and people understanding, okay, adoption, but now what does that mean?

- [Danor] Right.

- And so that's one of the reasons really helped me get into personal training and working with athletes is I had this assumption of he's black, so he must be involved with sports.

He must have played at some level of sports.

And so, I had parents who'd send their kids to me, would never ask, "What are your credentials?

What are your experience?

Who have you worked with?"

- Interesting.

- But they just saw this black guy, so he must know how to train.

I, in fact, had, a few months ago, I had a dad bring a group of kids in and he said to me after the workout, he said, "Is it bad that when I saw you weren't a skinny white guy and you were a black guy, I was happy?"

(Danor and Lonzo laugh) And in my head, I said, "No, it's not bad because now I have some new clients."

But I'm thinking, you know, there's some great trainers out there who may not look like me.

And so, I spend a lot of time working out and doing stuff because of where I live and the stereotype that, "Hey, if I look a certain way, I can gain more clients."

Whereas, I feel like if I wasn't living in Utah, my whole, things I would do, the way I would probably dress and interact... - Totally different.

- Yeah.

Would be completely different.

- Yeah.

You could, on the bright side of things, you could be like me, where they look at me and think I'm athletic and then they get to meet me and they're like, "Oh wait, nevermind.

He's not athletic."

(everyone laughs) The big disappointing look on their face when I'm like, "Sorry, I'm just kind of a nerd."

What about you?

- Yeah.

I think in a, I think that's a really great point about education.

What struck me when you asked the question was how do you see your child and how do you help them see themselves?

Because I think that was a thing that I struggled with a lot was like, "How do I see myself?

Like, where do I actually fit in this array of people?"

- Well, this has been a great discussion.

As we explore how cultures intersect in families, we want to take you on an exploration of culture, family, and food.

Now, we recently visited a great Latin restaurant called Gallo Loco.

It's owned and operated by an immigrant family here in West Valley.

And there's meaning behind the name.

Check it out.

- My name is Kimberly Tello and I'm from Mexico, Puebla, and I'm co-owner of Gallo Loco.

My father, he's like, "You know what, let's do something.

Let's start something."

And one day he was just walking in the street and he just came into the restaurant, "Hey, do you sell your business?"

And was like, "Yeah, I wanna buy it."

And that's when it started.

(food sizzling) The best thing on the breakfast is butter.

There was enough, not enough money for me to go to the doctor in Mexico.

And my father had to come here, to United States.

My dad had two jobs.

He slept in the bus station for him to go, 'cause he didn't have a car.

And that's when I started to learn how to cook.

I had to cook for my brother.

We make our homemade chorizo here, and the recipe from my mom, and then a little bit of what my uncle did.

- We started from nothing, from scratch, and we just, you know, now we have three restaurants.

So when we always are thankful to God, especially He's the one who has brought us family together, brought us three businesses now that's been running together and He's a provider.

- Okay.

Do a little bit more cheese.

So every bite you have, it's there, nice and juicy.

I always believe a breakfast burrito should never be dry.

El Gallo Loco means sweat, means blood, means tears, being able to be strong, and faithful.

The reason that when it comes to in God, we trust, it means that no matter how hard life is, we trust in Him 'cause He will provide.

And then once you pass those trials, that's what makes us stronger.

That's what makes us gallo loco.

- Mm!

- [Kimberly] Right here, see?

Damn!

- You must be proud of your family and your children to be able to work with your kids, with your business.

(Jose speaking Spanish) - It's the best team, like, I could ever ask for.

The best team.

- Wow.

What a great story.

And, you know, it goes to show that any family can overcome challenges by just working through them together.

And there are at least two locations for Gallo Loco, so check it out and let us know what you think.

We wanna thank Jennica and Jeff for helping make this show special, sharing your experience with all of us so that we can share in it with you in this community.

To hear more from Jennica and Jeff, hit up our podcast, where we extend this conversation a little further and you can find that on PBSUtah.org/roots.

And join us again next week, as we discuss the fine line between cultural appropriation and appreciation.

It's all about roots, race and culture right here on PBS, Utah.

And we're out.

(upbeat jazz music) - [Announcer] "Roots, Race and Culture" is made possible, in part, by the contributions to PBS, Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.