Lakeland Currents, your public affairs program for north central Minnesota.

Closed captioning is made possible by Bemidji Regional Airport, serving the region with daily flights to Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.

More information available at bemidjiairport.org Welcome to Lakeland Currents.

I'm your host Todd Haugen.

My guest is Jared Echternach.

Jared is the President and CEO of Beltrami Electric.

Jared welcome to Lakeland Currents.

Well, thanks for having me, Todd, it's great to be here.

Jared it's great to have you on the show.

I had listened to a presentation you did this past summer that I found very interesting and enjoyable, but before we get to some of the things you talked about in that conversation and that presentation that you did, what's an electric cooperative?

What's the difference, for instance, between an electric cooperative and something like Otter Tail Power.

Sure.

Electric co-ops were formed under FDR, the New Deal Program back in the 1930's, and Beltrami Electric Cooperative was incorporated in 1940 as an electric co-op.

We serve Beltrami County and parts of several other counties around the immediate area.

We have about 19,000 members and they own the co-op as opposed to an investor-owned utility where the investor-owned utility is owned by shareholders, of course.

We're community-based, community-minded, and there are 44 distribution electric cooperatives in Minnesota.

And so that was one of the things I was going to ask you about, how large a coverage area Beltrami Electric has.

You said several other counties besides Beltrami.

Sure it's predominantly Beltrami County, but our service territory spans 3,000 square miles.

So if you can imagine from the north end of Walker, Minnesota, all the way up to north of Waskish, Minnesota is our service territory.

And where does Beltrami Electric get the electricity that we purchase through Beltrami?

Sure great question.

You know as a co-op we're also members of many other cooperatives and Minnkota Power Cooperative is our wholesale power supplier and Minnkota is based in Grand Forks, North Dakota, that's where their headquarters is, but their generation facilities are in Center, North Dakota.

And that is a coal-fired plant.

That is a coal-fired plant, about 700 megawatts is the Young Station, Young 1 and 2.

There's two units there but then also Minnkota has access to wind and solar, excuse me wind and hydro generation as well, and about 2% of other, diesel fire generation as well.

So about 40% of Minnkota's portfolio is renewable energy now.

Really.

Yes.

The hydro does that comes from the Garrison Dam.

It does, yeah, so about 7% of Minnkota's total generation portfolio is hydro, predominantly from the Missouri River, the Garrison Dam.

Okay continuing on with the sources of electricity you mentioned renewable energy and that's really been an up and coming thing, hasn't it?

You certainly see a lot of wind generation in eastern South Dakota for instance.

Certainly and that's Minnkota's resources.

Wind resources are predominantly in the Dakotas, right, North Dakota specifically because that's where the generation resource capacity exist the best right North Dakota is known for its wind, of course, South Dakota and Iowa as well.

Texas I think is the number one wind energy producer but North Dakota is right up there, too.

So those wind generators I mean I look and wonder how do those pay, I mean I know you're not paying for the wind, but it's a huge machine and there's got to be a lot of maintenance costs and it's got to be very expensive to buy one of those.

Sure they're not inexpensive.

Of course the wind is free right, but it certainly doesn't always blow, so you do have to have backup resources for every megawatt of wind generation there needs to be a base load generation, you know, backing that up so when the wind isn't blowing we still have power and keep the lights on.

But about a million dollars a megawatt is a traditional cost for utility scale wind resources.

So if you think of the larger towers out in the North Dakota landscape when you drive by them typically they're the 2 megawatt variety now.

I remember when Minnkota first constructed its first wind turbine it was 900 KW and that was a large one at the time which is now no one's building the smaller ones like that.

How long do those last?

They've lasted 20 to 30 years so far but it does require maintenance.

Certainly there's moving parts, moving gears in the nacelle, the mechanism on top of the turbine.

So they do need to be maintained and they do have protections in place so when the wind is blowing too strong it will actually cut out.

So I think that cut out speed is around 50 mph.

Another thing I wondered about when the wind is too strong what do you do, I mean do they just break them then they stop them so that they can't spin.

Yeah they disengage essentially so they don't spin during those high, high wind speeds.

I see.

Solar power it continues to develop just like other forms of generation I suppose and Beltrami has a small field of solar generators right.

We do and this was, we constructed that back in 2018 and it was based on the segment of our members that wanted that opportunity.

Maybe they weren't able to put solar power or solar panels on their home or on their property but they wanted a way to participate in that program so we developed what's known as a community solar array where members can subscribe to the output of that array and they paid upfront for that and then they get a monthly credit on their bill for the solar energy produced at that facility.

Now the facility is fairly small, it's only 80 kw facility which is small but it was a way for us to learn about solar, get into it at a smaller scale, offer it to our members who were interested in that and then construct it ourselves and learn about solar installations.

Can you use that field year round?

Obviously in the winter the capacity factor goes down because when it's snow covered the generation just isn't there so you see the bulk of the generation takes place during the summer months during those long days and then in the winter the generation goes down considerably.

Having said that, you know, the capacity factor on a solar array up in northern Minnesota is around that 13 to 15% of the time so it's a lower capacity factor than say a wind resource in North Dakota which may be operating at a 40 to 50% capacity factor.

Do you see Beltrami adding to that solar field anytime soon or having their own wind generators?

Yeah I don't think wind generation is best suited for our service territory.

It's best, better suited at utility scale out in the Dakotas so I think that's what we'll see more of.

In terms of the solar generation we still have subscriptions available to our existing solar community solar project so I don't foresee us expanding that until such time there was the demand for it.

There is a large industry that has developed trying to sell people their own solar generators and I suppose also wind generators but when people put their own solar panels in do they tie into the electric grid and at times potentially sell electricity back to power companies?

Sure they do and this is true for for all utility, electric utilities in Minnesota there's what's called a net metering law.

So homeowners or businesses can install solar other renewable resources and interconnect to the distribution grid which there's a formalized process to do that so everything meets engineering standards and is safe and so forth and then any excess energy that's sold back to the electric utility is paid at the average retail energy rate.

So the intent of the law when it was established was to help homeowners and businesses supply some of their own power, it was never intended to be a merchant power producer type system, so we don't have many that you know sell back but I think we're seeing more of that, Todd.

The solar panels that Beltrami has presently, for instance, how long do those last?

Well we put those in and give me some room here I think it was 2018 when they were finally energized and the program is set up on a 20 year program for the community solar.

We think we could probably exceed that.

So more about renewable energy in a moment but first again the bulk of the electricity that we use here in northern Minnesota is coming from coal fire power generation.

Yeah predominantly coal fire generation in the Minnkota system, about 56- 57% of our generation capacity is coal fire generation with the other, you know, the other being predominantly renewable in wind and hydro in North Dakota.

That coal generation, has that gotten more efficient and less polluting?

I think the control systems that Minnkota has installed over the last several decades have reduced the emissions of the plant considerably.

One project that Minnkota is evaluating now is a project called Project Tundra which would capture about 4 million metric tons of CO2 from the coal fired plants in North Dakota and store it about 5,000 ft underground permanently.

It's a carbon capture and sequestration project known as Project Tundra.

Could that be something that could make coal generation almost non-polluting, almost non CO2 generating?

Pretty close and one thing that, you know, that ties into it is a recent legislation that was passed in Minnesota that requires electric utilities to deliver and sell carbon-free energy by 2040, 100% carbon free.

So it's important that we are able to utilize our existing base load resources out in North Dakota, capture that carbon, and still provide reliable and affordable electricity to our members.

And nuclear power, that has not expanded in the United States in any time in the last few decades has it.

It hasn't and I think that's something that really needs to be reconsidered both at the state level and federal level quite frankly.

Right now Minnesota has a moratorium on nuclear construction so it can't even be considered as part of a solution, a carbon- free solution mind you, for Minnesotans.

That technology has existed for a long time but the issue was always storing the waste produced by the process of the nuclear fission, has that been advanced at all?

I don't know that the storage problem has been advanced or solved mind you but certainly the technology of nuclear has advanced and something that we're monitoring closely, not only Minnkota, but I'd say electric utilities all over the country are what's known as small modular reactors, SMR.

So think of it as a more not portable but a small modular system that can be located you know centrally towards an existing transmission system and not be the huge nuclear facilities that existed prior.

Well that sounds interesting, but nuclear, I mean everybody thinks of it as being so dangerous.

I mean you see the the movies, the Three Mile Island whole scenario, Chernobyl and you think well how could you have a little one of those that would actually be safe but that's apparently been figured out.

It has and I think that the challenge now is probably cost.

They're still cost prohibitive compared to other generation resources.

But look at our US Navy, they've been using nuclear solutions for decades and doing it safely and effectively.

So carbon-free generation by 2040, that's I mean it may sound like it's a long time from now, but of course it really isn't, is it.

It isn't and from an electric utility planning perspective that's next week so to speak.

It's a tough goal to meet but we, Minnkota is committed to doing that and will continue to focus mostly on wind energy in North Dakota to help meet that goal.

Is that a state of Minnesota reg Jared?

It is.

That was legislation passed by the state of Minnesota two sessions ago that requires all electricity sold at retail to be carbon free so it's important that we are able to include carbon capture and sequestration as one of those solutions.

Now you said was 60% of our power is currently generated by the coal fire?

Roughly about 57%.

Has that percentage been dropping?

It has as we've brought on more wind generation.

Okay yeah so if we continue to drop that and we can potentially make coal fire generation almost non-carbon generating maybe we'll be okay.

I think so and you know the challenge we face of course is a pretty quick timeline as you mentioned earlier.

2040 isn't that far away from a utility planning perspective but we're certainly working hard to meet those objectives and I have full confidence that Minnkota can do that.

And back to the process that's being explored for that plant out in North Dakota and I would assume other coal-fired plants around the country of sequestering that CO2.

Is that currently happening?

I mean are they doing that right now sequestering some of that carbon dioxide?

Yeah certainly not a new technology but it's not a prevalent technology right.

So there was a demonstration plant down in Texas that used a carbon capture for enhanced oil recovery.

So it wasn't a carbon capture and sequestration it was carbon capture used in enhanced oil recovery and really the amount of carbon captured and used was dependent on the price of oil.

This would be different because it's not used for enhanced oil recovery, it would be used as a permanent storage facility for the CO2.

Is that expensive to store it in that manner, I mean to put it 5,000 ft under the ground.

Yeah well the good news is that you know Minnkota and you know North Dakota is really well suited for this geologically.

If you think of, you know, 5,000 ft down and you think of a sponge, if you will, that is able to absorb all that CO2 that's the geology of North Dakota that is perfectly situated for that type of storage mechanism.

So it wouldn't be going down there in a container of any kind it'd essentially just be pumped down there.

Pumped down there in vertical wells if you will which are already permitted by the state of North Dakota.

Wow.

And it should be, I mean it's almost possible already to do that and virtually eliminate the emission of carbon dioxide.

Almost, the challenge is the cost to construct, right, and specifically over the last, you know, five or six years after the pandemic the cost of construction for anything, whether it's power plants or utilities or you know even at home, the cost has increased dramatically.

So without, you know, subsidies of some type the project would not be feasible.

So they're pursuing several grant opportunities and loan opportunities not only from the federal government but from the state of North Dakota as well to make the economics work for this project.

I want to get back to people's electricity that they are currently purchasing again and the load management, the so-called off peak electric system that some people subscribe to.

We do at our home and it's a terrific deal but it changes a little bit year to year in terms of how often the load is managed and that off peak electricity is essentially turned off.

For those that have never heard of how that whole thing works how does it work.

Well I'm glad you mentioned that Todd and it's been a great program for Beltrami Electric Cooperative in the Minnkota System since the late 70s, early 80s Minnkota and the co-ops were certainly pioneers of that program and it's really helped us use our power plants more efficiently and really prolong the need to construct additional plants because of members participating in the off peak program.

And really what that is is really you get about half price electricity for everything connected to the off peak program and then when Minnkota needs to reduce the demand for electricity they're able to turn that off and then the member uses their backup system or an alternative source of heating if you will and in return they get that half price electricity.

So it's really, you know, made our power plants more efficient, made our distribution system more efficient and helped all of the members of the co-op using that program.

Well it sure helps us.

I've really liked I've enjoyed the program but I know that some people get frustrated or surprised year-to year because it seems like some years the load is managed more often and then the next year maybe not as much and why does it change?

The reason it changes is because the wholesale market for electricity is deregulated.

So Minnkota participates in the Midcontinent Independent System Operator so the MISO market if you will and that's our regional grid that runs all the way from Manitoba all the way down to Louisiana.

So we're part of that MISO grid .

So when the power, the demand for power, exceeds available capacity, one way that Minnkota can manage that and still keep the lights on if you will is to use that load management system with members voluntarily participating and curtailing their load to help us through those times.

I think that one of the neat things about the system is that it's not just for heat, you can also put your dryer on that source of electricity and air conditioning is becoming more of a concern for summer now and I guess I'm not an expert on it, I've been using it a long time, but I haven't seen the load get managed in the summer where my air conditioning goes off at an inconvenient time.

Typically, in our system specifically, has been a winter peaking system obviously one would think living in northern Minnesota and then the heating loads and so forth but you know all the new homes that are being constructed most of them if not all of them have some type of air conditioning or what we're seeing more so now is air source heat pumps that you can actually do some heating and cooling with that's become the kind of the norm for new construction that we've seen so it's a great load for the utility, it's a great cost savings for the member in terms of overall energy use but it does, you know, create that summer peak if you will because there's not the opportunity to manage that load as effectively in the summer because you don't really have a backup for air conditioning.

Right right.

Yeah but again having used it for many years I haven't had a problem with that or we haven't at our house and that's what we have a heat pump that has been just clicking right along.

We bought it in 2001 and I said Gee you know this is kind of expensive how long is it going to last and he said well you can expect 20 years out of it and that was 2001.

Okay so that should have been '21 that maybe it would start to weaken, it's not happening at our house anyway not trying to turn this into a commercial but it's just that it works very well and we haven't had that issue in the summer with losing our air conditioning at an inconvenient time, but you can use it for a dryer and for water heaters as well right.

Certainly and there are other loads that people have on there, too.

Saunas are a popular one as well but like you said water heater, drying, the heating and cooling are probably the predominant users though.

Yeah I guess the installers of hot tubs don't recommend using it because they don't want the electricity turned off on that hot tub in an inconvenient time.

Anyway we looked at that.

You mentioned the power grid a little while ago and I had a good conversation with Sam a few years ago from Beltrami about the power grid and we hear about the grid being vulnerable to this that and the other thing, how is the health of the the electric grid across the United States?

Yeah and I'll provide a national perspective if you will and I think we have an aging infrastructure, not only generation assets but also transmission assets which in my mind plays a key role in the functioning of our grid.

I mean the transmission grid is one of the major engineering achievements of the United States but it is aging and we need to invest nationally in updating those transmission lines so we can get the power to where it needs to be, those load centers if you will.

So there definitely needs to be investment in our transmission infrastructure and our generation infrastructure on a national perspective.

What would you do to the lines to make them up to date?

They have to be replaced?

They can be replaced upgraded if you will or brand new transmission lines would need to be constructed as well.

So, we have a federal agency that oversees electric reliability in this country so they work in coordination with the regional transmission operators, the MISO's of the world to help plan and identify areas where there are bottlenecks and where transmission needs to be constructed to alleviate those bottlenecks.

Is there any technology that presently exists Jared that would allow electricity transmission without a wire?

Not on a broad scale.

I think you think of these, you know your phone maybe sitting on a charger or maybe an electric vehicle sitting on a pad or a charger like that but as far as large scale, national solution for transmission there just doesn't exist right now.

And it's not realistic to put electric lines underground on a large scale, the real high power lines.

It's cost prohibitive and it's a little different than our distribution system and I'll give you a little bit of a reference point there.

We started putting our distribution lines underground back in the late 1970's and we've continued to do that and all the new lines that we've put in are underground so we're about 75% underground from a local distribution perspective.

Looking at a national perspective it's cost prohibitive to do that and obviously geography plays a major part in the ability to do that as well.

When people do have a power outage and have a problem, something has happened, is it best to always make that call to the emergency line?

It is and whether it's a phone call or we have a texting option for our members now too and we see more people using that option but it is.

The more information that we can receive from our members out in the field the better our system is able to predict okay where is the problem and shortens that restoration time for our line crews.

Right.

It's amazing how quickly they can restore I mean when we've had ours go off in a bad storm for instance it generally is not off very many minutes even and certainly generally not even hours.

Well it's great to hear that and we take great pride in our ability to restore power safely and efficiently and we're very proud, with our underground system, 75% underground, our average availability index is 99.98% of the time.

So our members, when they flip the light switch, they have access to electricity 99.98% of the time and on average they have about one outage per year.

Jared we only have a minute left of our show or so here today, there must be some things that you would like to bring up that I haven't asked you about.

Yeah, I think probably that nationally speaking I think that the most important thing is that we need to continue to invest in base load power generation and by base load I mean the generation that is available 24/7, 365 and right now those sources are coal, natural gas, and nuclear.

Renewable energy has its place and it's continuing to be a large part of our portfolio and it should be, but they are intermittent resources and you need base load generation to back up that intermittent power.

So there needs to be a balance between, you know, sustainability and reliability and affordability.

There certainly are a lot of people that are concerned about carbon dioxide and it appears with good reason, and I always wonder well if we're so concerned about carbon dioxide why isn't anybody looking harder at building more nuclear reactors, more nuclear power, but it doesn't seem like anybody wants to talk about it.

No and it certainly needs to be part of that conversation, both at a national level and the state of Minnesota.

Well, Jared, it's been a real pleasure to speak with you today and Beltrami Electric continues to be a great company for our part of Minnesota and we appreciate what you do and thanks for joining us on our Lakeland Currents.

Well, thanks so much Todd, I appreciate being here.

All right we'll look forward to another conversation in the very near future.

Good.

All right.

Well that's our Lakeland Currents for our show this time.

I'm Todd Haugen and we invite you to join us once again very soon for another edition of Lakeland Currents on Lakeland PBS