>>> NOW THIS ELECTION SEASON WE CAN CONFIDENTLY SAY IS LIKE NO OTHER.

WITH TRUMP'S INDICTMENTS, BIDEN BOWING OUT, KAMALA HARRIS STEPPING IN, AND NOW AN APPARENT SECOND ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AT TRUMP AT HIS FLORIDA GOLF COURSE.

TIMOTHY NAFTALI TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THIS WEEKEND'S TROUBLING EVENT AND WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT AMERICAN POLITICS TODAY.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IT'S BEEN AN INCREDIBLE POLITICAL YEAR, ALL SORTS OF TWISTS AND TERMS, BUT THE MOST UNSETTLING HAVE BEEN THESE VIOLENT TERMS.

WE'VE SEEN THE SECOND ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP -- FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

TELL ME WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU HEARD THAT THIS WEEK.

>> WELL, INITIALLY IT WAS, OH, GOD, NOT AGAIN.

IT WAS TRAUMATIC THE FIRST TIME SOMEONE ATTEMPTED TO ASSASSINATE PRESIDENT TRUMP IN -- FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IN JULY WAS TRAUMATIC.

IT WAS REMINISCENT OF THE WORST MOMENTS IN OUR POLITICAL HISTORY.

AND FOR SOMETHING SIMILAR, FORTUNATELY THE ATTEMPTED ASSASSIN DID NOT GET A SHOT OFF THIS TIME.

SOMETHING SIMILAR THAT OCCURRED WAS EQUALLY TRAUMATIC.

IT RAISED QUESTIONS IN MY MIND, FIRST OF ALL, ABOUT THE SECRET SERVICE'S ABILITY TO PROTECT MR. TRUMP BUT IT ALSO REMINDED ME OF HOW WE LIVE IN A TINDER BOX, POLITICAL TINDER BOX.

OUR POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT IS SO FRAUGHT, IT IS SO TOCKS THAIK DISTURBED MINDS.

WE DON'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT MR. RALPH BUT THE INFORMATION COMING OUT ABOUT THIS SECOND WANNA BE ASSASSIN IS HE'S TROUBLED, ANOTHER TROUBLED INDIVIDUAL.

WE LIVE IN A CLIMATE THAT IS SO FRAUGHT THAT IT LITERALLY PROVOKES THE TROUBLED AMONG US TO DO TERRIBLE THINGS.

>> I JUST WANT TO CLARIFY AS WE SPEAK THAT THE INVESTIGATION IS ONGOING INTO A SUSPECTED ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT.

THE CLIMATE IS FRAUGHT BUT IT'S THE POLITICAL CLIMATE.

THESE FEED OFF A DESPERATE AND INTRACTABLE POLARIZATION IN WHICH APOCALYPTIC RHETORIC IS USED.

LET'S START WITH THE RHETORIC.

IS THAT ONE OF THE THINGS ADDING TO THIS?

>> I SPENT A LITTLE BIT OF TIME STUDYING THE KENNEDY YEARS AND IN TRYING TO FIGURE OUT LEE HARVEY OSWALD A LONG TIME AGO PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE THE -- DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF SELF-RADICALIZATION, BUT AS A RESULT OF 9/11 AND OF THE CHALLENGE AGAINST INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM, PEOPLE HAVE BEGUN TO UNDERSTAND HOW INDIVIDUALS CAN BE RADICALIZED BY WHAT THEY READ AND WHAT THEY SEE.

AND WE HAVE EXPERIENCED TECHNOLOGICAL CHANGE THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN SO NOTABLY ABOUT, WALTER.

WE HAVE SEEN EVEN MORE OPPORTUNITIES AND MORE PLATFORMS WITH THE KINDS OF INFORMATION THAT WILL PUSH PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY UNWELL OVER THE EDGE TO ACTUALLY USE -- TO ACTUALLY CREATE THE VIOLENCE THAT THEY'RE WATCHING ON SCREEN.

AND I'M NOT A PSYCHOLOGIST AND I DON'T PLAY ONE ON TELEVISION, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF MANY OF THE WOULD BE AND SUCCESSFUL ASSASSINS, POLITICAL ASSASSINS IN OUR COUNTRY, MANY OF THEM WERE SELF-RADICALIZED.

SO THE LANGUAGE WE USE IN THE POLITICAL SPHERE TO DESCRIBE THOSE WE DISAGREE WITH MATTERS.

>> LET ME QUOTE YOU THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THAT THE WOULD BE ASSASSIN ACTED ON HIGHLY INFLAMMATORY LANGUAGE OF THE DEMOCRATS, AND HE'S BLAMED IT ON THE DEMOCRATS.

J.D.

VANCE SAID NO ONE HAS TRIED TO KILL KAMALA HARRIS IN THE LAST TWO MONTHS.

AND TWO PEOPLE HAVE NOW TRIED TO KILL DONALD TRUMP.

I THINK IT'S THAT THE LEFT NEEDS TO TONE DOWN THE RHETORIC AND CUT THIS CRAP OUT.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS IT SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING MORE ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, THIS DEMONIZATION?

OR IS IT A BOTH SIDES PHENOMENON?

>> I THINK THE EFFORT TO SPIN THIS HORRIFIC ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEM IN ONE DIRECTION OR ANOTHER ONLY MAKES IT WORSE.

WE NEED ONLY ASK MR. PELOSI ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF EXTREME RHETORIC ON THE RIGHT.

SO LET'S JUST -- COULD WE HAVE A -- THE POLITICAL VERSION OF A CEASE-FIRE ABOUT SAYING WHICH SIDE IS MORE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS LANGUAGE?

THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT IN JULY IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR DEMOCRATS AS WELL AS REPUBLICANS TO TONE DOWN THE LANGUAGE.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES MADE I THINK A VERY POINTED AND EXCELLENT SPEECH WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF BRINGING DOWN THE VOLUME, BRINGING DOWN THE TEMPERATURE.

AND I WOULD -- I WOULD ARGUE THAT SORT OF AT THE CORE OF THE HARRIS CAMPAIGN IS A DESIRE TO TURN THE PAGE.

AND SHE'S USING, PARTICULARLY HER RUNNING MATE, IS USING HUMOR TO TRY TO WEAKEN DONALD TRUMP'S APPEAL.

THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF THE WEIRDNESS FACTOR.

SO I WOULD ARGUE THAT WE'VE SEEN CERTAINLY ON ONE SIDE SOME REDUCTION IN THE APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE THAT WAS AROUND IN JULY.

A CANDIDATE DESERVES TO BE TREATED WITH VIOLENCE AND VIOLENCE IS UNACCEPTABLE IN A WAY OF RESOLVING POLITICAL DISPUTES.

AFTER ALL, IN THE 19th CENTURY WE SAW THE CONSEQUENCES OF TRYING -- OF USING VIOLENCE TO SETTLE DISAGREEMENTS.

SO I DON'T THINK DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTS OF MAD MEN.

>> THERE'S SOMETHING DEEPER GOING ON HERE, I THINK, AND YOU'RE AN HISTORIAN THAT HAS SPECIALIZED, IN MANY TIMES YOU STUDIED WATERGATE, KENNEDY, CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS.

YOU CITED RICHARD HOFSTETTER.

YOU USED HIM IN YOUR OWN WORK.

TELL ME ABOUT THIS PARANOID STYLE AND WHETHER THIS CONSPIRACY IS NOTIONS BUBBLING UP AGAIN ARE PART OF A CYCLE IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

>> WHEN RICHARD HOSTETTER WROTE A WONDERFUL PIECE ABOUT THE PARANOID STYLE, IT WAS -- IT WAS 1963 AND IT WAS BEFORE LEE HARVEY OSWALD KILLED KENNEDY, THE FIRST TIME HE GAVE A SPEECH.

HE REWROTE IT AFTERWARDS AND IT WAS PUBLISHED AFTER THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION, BUT HE WAS DESCRIBING THE EDGES, WALTER, OF OUR POLITICAL COMMUNITY, THE EDGES.

AND THE EDGES WERE THESE EXTREME VIEWS.

AND HE WENT THROUGH OUR HISTORY AND HE MENTIONED DIFFERENT SMALL GROUPS, WE CALL THEM THIRD PARTIES, WHO HAD UNUSUALLY CONSPIRATORIAL VIEWS.

PEOPLE WHO WORRIED ABOUT MASONS, THE ANTI-MASONIC PARTY.

PEOPLE WHO WORRIED ABOUT IMMIGRANTS.

AND HE EXPLAINED THAT IN OUR POLITICAL CULTURE THERE IS THE CAPACITY FOR CONSPIRATORIAL THINKING AND THAT IT'S ALSO ALWAYS THERE.

IT'S LIKE BREAD IN THE BONE.

ONE THING HE MADE CLEAR IS THE OUTER EDGE.

OCCASIONALLY IT MOVES CLOSER TO THE CENTER.

HE WAS CONCERNED ABOUT A GROUP CALLED THE JOHN BURKE SOCIETY, VERY FAR RIGHT, VERY ANTI-COMMUNIST.

A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT DWIGHT EISENHOWER WAS AN ENEMY OF THE UNITED STATES AND THAT SOMEHOW A TOOL OF THE SOVIETS.

AND HE WORRIED ABOUT THE EFFECT THEY WERE HAVING ON THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THEY SUPPORTED ULTIMATELY THE NOMINEE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN 1964, BARRY GOLDWATER, ALTHOUGH BARRY GOLDWATER HIMSELF WAS NOT A CAPTIVE OF SUCH CONSPIRATORIAL THINKING.

MY POINT IN BRINGING THIS UP IS HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE OUTER EDGES.

WE ARE LIVING IN A POLITICAL MOMENT, WALTER, WHEN THOSE OUTER EDGES ARE AT THE CENTER OF OUR POLITICS.

>> WHAT'S BRINGING IT UP TO THE CENTER OF OUR POLITICS THEN?

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT DONALD TRUMP AND THE LEADERSHIP OF THE TRUMPIST REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS DONE THAT.

THEY HAVE BOTH RESPONDED TO ANGER OUTSIDE OF WASHINGTON AND THEY'VE HELPED STIR THAT ANGER.

THERE ARE CONSPIRATORIAL THINKERS ON THE LEFT, THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, BUT THEY'RE NOT AT THE CENTER OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

>> DO YOU THINK SOCIAL MEDIA'S HELPED BRING IT TO THE CENTER OF OUR DISCOURSE?

>> THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

LOOK, THE WAY YOU WOULD COMMUNICATE THESE IDEAS IN THE 1960s WAS THROUGH PAMPHLETS.

YOU CAN SEE THE PERVASIVENESS OF THESE PAMPHLETS, BUT THAT WAS A SLOWER WAY OF -- BASICALLY OF SPREADING TOXICITY.

WE HAVE AN INSTANTANEOUS WAY OF DOING IT NOW.

AND LOOK, LOOK AT THE WAY PEOPLE USE NOT ONLY MEMES BUT LITTLE SNIPPETS OF VIDEO TO DRIVE HOME DRAMATICALLY A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW.

MOST RECENTLY IN DISCUSSING THIS HORRIFIC LIE ABOUT IMMIGRANTS EATING PETS.

>> LET ME PUSH BACK A LITTLE BECAUSE WE'VE HAD FOR A WHOLE YEAR DEMOCRATS SORT OF SAYING ALL OF DEMOCRACY IS THREATENED IN THIS ELECTION.

I MEAN, ISN'T THAT A BIT OVER THE TOP TO SAY SOMEBODY'S GOING TO DESTROY OUR DEMOCRACY?

>> APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE NEVER SERVES US VERY WELL.

WE LIVE IN AN ERA WHERE OUTRAGE IS USED TO FUEL POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS.

ACTUALLY, TO FUND THEM.

I MEAN, ANYBODY WATCHING NOW WILL KNOW THAT THEY'VE RECEIVED REQUESTS TO CONTRIBUTE MONEY AND IT'S ALWAYS THE MOST EXTREME.

SO WE DO LIVE IN AN ERA OF OUTRAGE.

I DO BELIEVE THAT APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE IS NOT IN THE INTEREST OF THE COUNTRY.

WE'VE GOT TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THERE'S ALWAYS ANOTHER ELECTION AND THAT IF YOU LOSE THE ELECTION, YOU'LL HAVE ANOTHER CHANCE.

AND YOU DON'T WANT TO TAKE THE BALL HOME WITH YOU.

YOU DON'T WANT TO DESTROY THE FOOTBALL FIELD.

IF YOU LOSE, YOU LOSE, YOU MOVE ON.

IN 2021 DONALD TRUMP DID SOMETHING THAT NO PREDECESSOR OF HIS EVEN THOUGHT TO DO, WHICH WAS TO CONTEST A PEACEFUL TRANSITION OF POWER.

IN A SENSE, GIVING LICENSE TO A LOT OF AMERICANS SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT, IF I DON'T LIKE THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION, MAYBE IT WAS FRAUD THAT CAUSED THAT ELECTION OUTCOME.

MAYBE IT REALLY DIDN'T HAPPEN.

SO WE ARE IN A DANGEROUS MOMENT WHERE -- AND THE LEFT HAS USED THIS APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE.

I WOULD ARGUE THOUGH THE JANUARY 6th SHOULD LEAVE AN INDELIBLE IMPRESSION UPON ALL OF US THAT VERY DIVISIVE LANGUAGE CAN LEAD TO VIOLENCE ON A GRAND SCALE.

>> YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT HOW WHEN A GREATER GENERATION WAS IN POWER, THEY WENT THROUGH WORLD WAR II TOGETHER, THE DEPRESSION TOGETHER, THERE WAS A SENSE OF COMMON PURPOSE AND YET YOU'RE A HISTORIAN OF THE 1960s.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS PERIOD, IT SORT OF REMINDS ME OF THE 1960s, INCLUDING THE RIOTS AND THE DIVISIONS IN THE STREETS, BUT ALSO THE THEORY OF A DEEP STATE.

YOU DID WATER GATE AND NIXON STUFF.

HE BELIEVED THEY, THE PARANOID, DEEP STATE WAS OUT TO GET HIM.

DON'T YOU SEE PARALLELS?

>> WELL, THERE ARE TWO POINTS ABOUT THIS.

OF COURSE THERE ARE CERTAIN PARALLELS, BUT THERE ARE REAL DIFFERENCES.

FIRST OF ALL, AFTER MARTIN LUTHER KING WAS ASSASSINATED IN APRIL OF 1968, THE HOUSE PASSED WITH BIPARTISAN SUPPORT THE FAIR HOUSING ACT, WHICH IS THE THIRD GREAT CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF THE 1960s.

REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE, INCLUDING GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH VOTED FOR THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT.

NOT SIMPLY BECAUSE MARTIN LUTHER KING HAD BEEN ASSASSINATED BUT ALSO OUT OF A SENSE OF FAIRNESS TO AMERICANS OF COLOR WHO HAD -- WERE SERVING IN VIETNAM.

THERE WAS A SENSE OF A JOINT BIPARTISAN SENSE WE HAVE TO DO BETTER.

THIS IS AMIDST THE SWIRLING ISSUES THAT YOU RAISED.

THERE WAS STILL A POSSIBILITY AMONG ELECTED OFFICIALS TO WORK TOGETHER AND SET A NATIONAL TONE TO SHOW THAT WE WERE BETTER THAN WE HAD BEEN BEFORE.

I JUST DON'T SEE, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, I DON'T SEE THIS BIPARTISAN CAPACITY TO SET A BETTER TONE AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.

ELITE OPINION IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, BUT IT MATTERS.

WE HAVE A VERY DIVIDED ELITE.

NOW THE OTHER PARALLELS, OF COURSE, THE VERY FACT THAT IN 1968 YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO COULD HAVE RUN AGAIN, WHO DECIDES NOT TO RUN AGAIN, STEPS ASIDE BECAUSE OF A VERY UNPOPULAR WAR.

THAT UNPOPULAR WAR IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM ISRAEL'S WAR WITH HAMAS.

AMERICANS WERE FIGHTING THE WAR IN VIETNAM.

IT WAS A MUCH MORE -- THE EFFECTS ON US AS A PEOPLE WERE MUCH GRAVER.

I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT THE HUMANITARIAN SIDE OF THE WAR WITH HAMAS DOESN'T MATTER.

I'M SAYING AS A POLITICAL CHALLENGE IT DIDN'T REACH AS DEEPLY INTO THE AMERICAN SOUL, PSYCHE AND POLITICS AS DID VIETNAM.

YOU HAD VIETNAM, WHICH WAS CERTAINLY DIVIDING US, BUT -- BUT THE COUNTRY'S LEADERS WERE STILL ABLE TO MAKE CHANGES.

THEY WEREN'T PARALYZED BY THESE -- BY WHAT WAS GOING ON, BY THE SOCIAL AND CULTURAL REVOLUTION THAT WAS GOING ON AROUND THEM.

WHEREAS, I FEEL RIGHT NOW WE ARE STUCK, AND WHEN YOU HAVE ONE OF THE TWO POLITICAL PARTIES THAT IS SO ANIMATED BY CONSPIRACY THINKING BASICALLY TAKING THE PARANOID STYLE FROM THE OUTER EDGE OF OUR POLITICS RIGHT TO THE CENTER OF IT, IT MAKES NATIONAL CONCILIATION HARDER.

NOT BLAMING EVERYTHING ON THE RIGHT, BUT I AM SAYING THAT WE HAVE SEEN A SHIFT TOWARDS MORE CONSPIRATORIAL THINKING AND THAT IS MAINLY ON ONE SIDE THAN THE OTHER.

IT SHOULDN'T BE ON EITHER SIDE.

>> TIM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.