for just the fourth time in American history a former U.S president has been indicted and all four happened this year against the same man Donald Trump a grand jury in Georgia on Monday charged Trump and 18 allies on conspiracy charges for their effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election and undermine U.S democracy the nearly 100-page indictment lists 41 charges against Trump and his allies including former lawyer Rudy Giuliani and former white house chief of staff Mark Meadows prosecutors are using a statute initially created to Target the mafia and Mobsters accusing the former president and his aides and lawyers of racketeering operating a criminal Enterprise to keep him in power describing calls emails and other efforts to allegedly prostate and federal officials into finding the votes Trump lacked to win her harassing an election worker who faced false claims of Fraud and attempting to persuade Georgia lawmakers to appoint a new Electoral College more favorable to Trump rather than by abide by Georgia's legal process for election challenges the defendants engaged in a criminal racketeering Enterprise to overturn Georgia's presidential election result now the conduct described by prosecutors goes beyond Georgia incorporating efforts by Trump and his allies in Arizona Pennsylvania Wisconsin and other states for more on what this historic indictment means I'm joined by former assistant U.S attorney for New Jersey Chris Gramiccioni Chris thank you so much for joining me we really can't understate how unprecedented a moment this is in American history I mean these are laws correct me if I'm wrong designed to dismantle organized crime how are the prosecutors going to go about this case yeah that's exactly right they originally started with dismantling racketeering which is typically involved in mafioso activity but it's been applied on a number of different areas including apparently here I think the way they go about it I think everything tends to revolve around the certificate of the votes for the 2020 election that was mailed from Georgia to Congress um most of the acts that are alleged including the conspiracy to commit Rico and all the other charges false statements impersonating public officer filing false documents they all revolve around that submission and that solicitation of those different Georgia officials to include the creation of what's been colloquially referred to as the fake collectors or alternate electors depending on which side you're reviewing that's how they approach this the key here is proving Criminal Intent that's the big difference here and that's the same for some of the other indictments is there corrupt intent or Criminal Intent does that then change uh I guess really are the stakes higher for this indictment compared to the other three what is the other notable difference in this one well this one uh the the district attorney is posturing to prosecute it within six months um there's a speedy trial statute that exists in Georgia but it's typically reserved for the defendant to exercise uh the former president and the current Republican candidate potentially Republican candidate is going to have to face these four indictments and there's going to be kind of a collision between these four different jurisdictions and four different courts how that sorts out I don't know but in terms of the charges racketeering is pretty severe to carry up to 20 years imprisonment in Georgia to include fines and penalties um and anytime your Liberty is potentially being at risk I mean I think that's quite serious with any criminal charge it seems like the defense will be similar to the other charges which is can you prove that the people that are charged knowingly willfully and intentionally undertook this conduct or did they genuinely believe that the the election was stolen and that there was some kind of fraud afoot that's going to be a decision for a try or fact a jury in the states yeah let me stay on that topic because we were talking about 18 other defendants 19 if you include the former president and what these prosecutors have to do is weave together all of these specific acts that they laid out in what's a sprawling indictment and prove that they did in fact uh have that intent how difficult a job is that when you're talking about a case of this magnitude well it's incredibly difficult they've laid out their allegations and now the burden lies with the state to prove it Beyond A Reasonable Doubt what makes it even more difficult is that you're going to have 18 at least as the district attorney States you're going to have 18 defendants along with their Council sitting in one courtroom one Forum which you know that's going to be incredibly difficult especially to pull off in six months because every defendant is going to be entitled to Discovery and that Discovery is going to take some time to go through considering there's 41 counts and then when you overlay that with the other three prosecutions that in time occurred before this one I just don't know how it sorts out within six months but it's going to be a challenge yeah and it's it's really up to the judge's discretion for how this trial uh is scheduled we know that there are already two trials scheduled for his for two of his other indictments uh in 2024. um could the president the former president pardon himself he is still the GOP front-runner he is still running for the 2024 presidency you mentioned the criminal penalties that this carries is that even an option for him at this point well it unless he is elected president again the pardon power under the Constitution would only extend to Federal offenses so as it pertains to the charges in Georgia it wouldn't apply and you know arguably he'd still have to face those charges um so but that could occur in the two other prosecutions one in DC One in South Florida that are that are federal charges that have been brought by the special counsel let me just end on this question with You Chris the fact that we have a former president running for president who is now looking at you know 91 charges across four jurisdictions give us the context here about what this means moving forward for democracy for future elections for the peaceful transfer of power there's more at stake than just the charges there is I mean obviously there's this is unprecedented as you pointed out there's no presidential candidate and former president that's ever faced any criminal charges much less in four different jurisdictions um I think we're watching history be made here um I'm no Politico but as it pertains to what this does in terms of the former president's Prospect says the GOP candidate my estimation is that if people who believe that this is politically motivated I think this kind of galvanizes those views the people who believe that the former president is is wrong and corruptly tried to steal the election uh you know to change the election results that'll just Galvanize them um how it all comes out in the sauce in terms of who votes for who I don't have the foggiest idea I mean I'm we're sitting here watching this history be made not just lawyers but I think as Citizens across the country it's quite it's quite interesting but also tragic in many sorts Chris garmicioni is the former Monmouth County prosecutor and former assistant U.S attorney for New Jersey Chris thanks so much for your time thank you have a good day