>>> NEXT, WE TURN TO PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHERE A BIDEN/TRUMP REMATCH IS LOOKING MORE LIKELY THAN EVER NOW.

PRESIDENT BIDEN, OF COURSE, HANDILY WON NEVADA'S DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY YESTERDAY, AND WHILE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS NOT ON THAT REPUBLICAN BALLOT, NIKKI HALEY STILL CAME SECOND TO, QUOTE, NONE OF THESE CANDIDATES, THAT WAS THE OPTION.

IN HIS RECENT PIECE TITLED "THIS IS REALLY HAPPENING," ATLANTIC MAGAZINE STAFF WRITER DAVID GRAHAM DETAILS THE MAIN REASONS BEHIND THIS REMATCH, AND HE TELLS MICHEL MARTIN HOW VOTERS ARE FEELING ABOUT IT.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

DAVID GRAHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU ARE WRITTEN A BUNCH OF PIECES LATELY THAT HAVE CAUGHT OUR EYE, BUT THERE'S ONE IN PARTICULAR WE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT, WHERE YOU BASICALLY SAID OUT LOUD WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE THINKING, WHICH IS THAT IT LOOKS LIKE 2024 IS GOING TO COME DOWN TO A REMATCH BETWEEN JOE BIDEN AND DONALD TRUMP, AND THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE PRETTY UNHAPPY ABOUT THAT.

HOW DID WE GET TO THIS POINT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT SAYS A LOT ABOUT POLARIZATION, IT SAYS A LOT ABOUT PARTY STRUCTURES, AND IT SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE SORT OF DISAFFECTION THAT VOTERS HAVE FROM OUR PROCESS AND POLITICS IN GENERAL.

AND IT'S REMARKABLE THAT THIS IS AN OUTCOME THAT IN MANY WAYS SEEMED ORDAINED FOR YEARS NOW, OR ONE IN POLLS THAT CONSISTENTLY VOTERS SAY THEY DON'T WANT OR THEY DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO GET.

I THINK NOW MAYBE REALITY IS STARTING TO SET IN.

>> WELL, THAT'S ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT YOUR PIECE, THAT -- THAT -- AND FRANKLY, I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO CAPTURE.

IS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE SEEM TO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE IT, WHEN THE EVIDENCE IS ALL THERE, THAT THAT IS TRUE, AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINTED OUT IN YOUR PIECE, THAT SEEMS TO BE KIND OF ON BOTH -- BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE, AS IT WERE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

I MEAN, YOU HAVE DEMOCRATS SAYING THAT DON'T WANT AND DON'T EXPECT JOE BIDEN TO BE THE NOMINEE.

YOU HAVE, APPARENTLY, ACCORDING TO A BIDEN INTERNAL CAMPAIGN POLL, LIKE, THREE-QUARTERS OF UNDECIDEDS DON'T THINK TRUMP WILL BE THE NOMINEE.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE WAY A LOT OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS ARE ACTING, THEY ARE ACTING LIKE THEY HOPE HE WON'T BE THE NOMINEE.

YOU EVEN SEE THIS AMONG REPUBLICAN OFFICERS HOLDERS WHO ARE SLOW TO ENDORSE HIM, EVEN AS HE IS A JUGGERNAUT, AND KEEP TALKING AS THOUGH THERE MIGHT BE SOME SORT OF -- THAT WOULD CHANGE THAT.

I THINK PART OF THIS IS JUST ABOUT HOW SURREAL A LOT OF POLITICS HAS BEEN THE LAST FEW YEARS.

THINGS KEEP HAPPENING THAT PEOPLE DON'T EXPECT.

AND MAYBE THERE'S A HOPE THAT SOMETHING ELSE UNEXPECTED WILL HAPPEN, OR THERE'S JUST A REFUSAL TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS REALLY THE WAY THINGS ARE.

>> IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLLING, YOU KNOW, REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS SEEM TO BE VERY COMMITTED TO DONALD TRUMP.

SO, I GUESS WHAT I'M ASKING YOU, IS THE DISSATISFACTION, THE LACK THEREOF, WHATEVER IT IS, IS IT THE SAME ON BOTH SIDES, OR DOES IT HAVE DIFFERENT FLAVORS, ON THE DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN SIDE?

>> I THINK IT DOES HAVE DIFFERENT FLAVORS.

ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, WHAT YOU HAVE IS A LARGE CORE, A MAJORITY OF PRIMARY VOTERS WHO WANT DONALD TRUMP AND ARE SHOWING THAT, AND THEN ALSO A SURPRISINGLY LARGE NUMBER WHO DON'T.

SO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE LOOKING AT VARYING PERCENTAGES.

WE SEE ABOUT HALF OF IOWA CAUCUS GOERS, SOLID NUMBERS IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, OF PEOPLE VOTING AGAINST HIM.

IF YOU THINK OF TRUMP BEING THE DE FACTO INCUMBENT, IS A STRANG NUMBER.

ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, IT'S DIFFERENT.

THERE'S NOT REALLY ANY ENERGY BEHIND ANY OF THE CHALLENGERS TO HIM, MARY ANNE WILLIAMSON OR DEAN PHILLIPS, AS WE'VE SEEN IN THE SOUTH CAROLINA RESULTS WHERE THEY CLOCKED IN AROUND 2%.

BUT WHAT YOU SEE IS A LACK OF ENTHUSIASM.

AND ALSO SORT OF A CONTINUING HOPE MAYBE THAT SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN AND BIDEN WILL DROP OUT OF THE RACE AND SOMEBODY ELSE WILL END UP IN THAT PLACE.

SO, I THINK WHAT YOU SEE IS -- YOU SEE UNHAPPINESS ON BOTH SIDES.

>> AND ALSO, JUST WHAT PEOPLE ARE UNHAPPY ABOUT.

I MEAN, ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, YOU KNOW, I THINK PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT REPUBLICANS SEEM TO BE CONTINUALLY SURPRISED THAT A PERSON WITH 91, YOU KNOW, FELONY CHARGES AGAINST HIM CONTINUES TO ENJOY THE LEVEL OF SUPPORT THAT HE DOES.

AND ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, PEOPLE SEEM TO BE UPSET THAT JOE BIDEN IS OLD.

AND THAT SEEMS TO BE KIND OF DIFFERENT.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

AMONG DEMOCRATIC VOTERS, THERE'S THAT CONCERN THAT JOE BIDEN IS OLD.

AND THAT IS THEIR CONCERNS ABOUT HIM.

AMONG REPUBLICAN VOTERS, EVEN AS THOSE FELONY CHARGES HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE SORT OF THING THAT HAS LED TRUMP TO HAVE VERY LOW APPROVAL, AND LED MANY REPUBLICANS TO VOTE AGAINST HIM IN PRIMARIES, BUT IT'S STRENGTHENED HIS SUPPORT.

AMONG REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS, WE SEE HIS SUPPORT ONLY STRENGTHENING SINCE THOSE CHARGES.

WE'VE SEEN HIS RIVALS WERE UNABLE TO CAPITALIZE ON THAT, AND IN FACT, OFTEN BLASTING THE CHARGES THEMSELVES.

SO, THAT'S ANOTHER WAY IN WHICH YOU'RE RIGHT.

THEY'RE NOT REALLY THE SAME THING.

THE SORTS OF CONCERNS YOU HAVE ARE DIFFERENT.

AND I THINK PART OF THE DENIAL AMONG SOME MEMBERS OF THE ELECTORATE THAT TRUMP MIGHT BE THE NOMINEE IS ABOUT A KIND OF DISBELIEF.

AN EXPECTATION THAT CHARGES LIKE THAT WOULD UNDERMINE HIS SUPPORT WHEN, IN FACT, THEY HAVE JUST STRENGTHENED IT.

>> AMONG THE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE NOT PLEASED THAT DONALD TRUMP IS THEIR PRESUMPTIVE NOMINEE OR SEEMS TO BE SORT OF HEADED IN THAT DIRECTION, WHAT'S THE SOURCE OF IT?

WHAT IS IT THEY'RE DITS SATISFY DISSATISFIED ABOUT?

AND WHAT MAKES YOU SEEM SO SURE THAT THEY ARE?

>> I THINK IT COMES INTO A FEW GROUPS.

ONE GROUP IS PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALWAYS HAD POLICY DIFFERENCES WITH TRUMP.

OUT STRONGLY IN THE NIKKI HALEY SUPPORTERS.

IT'S PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE ON FOREIGN POLICY OR PEOPLE WHO WANT SORT OF MORE TRADITIONAL COUNTRY CLUB REPUBLICAN APPROACH.

THAT'S ONE GROUP.

AND THOSE PEOPLE VOTED AGAINST TRUMP IN THE PRIMARY IN 2016 AND FOR THE MOST PART THEY GOT IN LINE OR THEY LEFT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THERE ARE ALSO PEOPLE WHO ARE UPSET ABOUT THE CHARGES AND THINK THAT IT'S DANGEROUS, YOU KNOW, JANUARY 6th WAS A SORT OF ALIENATING EVENT FOR THEM.

THAT'S WHEN IT WENT TOO FAR.

AND I THINK THE THIRD GROUP IS PEOPLE WHO HAVE ISSUES WITH TRUMP, BUT MAYBE WILL COME AROUND.

AND THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SAID, AGAIN, SINCE 2016, YOU KNOW, YOU HEAR PEOPLE, WELL, I LIKE THAT HE TELLS IT HOW IT IS, OR, I LIKE THIS OR THAT, BUT I WISH HE WOULDN'T TALK THAT MUCH, OR I WISH HE WOULDN'T SAY IT THAT WAY.

SO, YOU HAVE THOSE PEOPLE EXPRESSING THEIR OPPOSITION IN THEIR PRIMARY VOTE.

AND I THINK WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE STILL VOTING FOR HIM IN THE GENERAL.

AND THERE'S GOING TO BE A QUESTION TO THE POINT OF ENTHUSIASM ON THE DEMOCRATIC ELECTION ABOUT TURN OUT.

WILL THEY TURN OUT FOR TRUMP, WHAT WILL THEY DO?

AND WILL THE PEOPLE WHO THINK BIDEN IS TOO OLD WILL COME AROUND AND VOTE FOR BIDEN, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT TRUMP POTENTIALLY BEING RE-ELECTED.

>> SO, THEN THE QUESTION BECOMES, HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?

THAT THIS IS AN ELECTION OF YOUR LEAST WORST CHOICE, AT LEAST FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE?

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> I THINK WE CAN TRACE A LOT OF THIS SO THE WAY THE PARTIES HAVE CHANGED.

SO, FOR ONE THING, BOTH OF THESE CANDIDATES ARE EFFECTIVELY RUNNING AS INCUMBENTS, AND THAT'S A BIG ADVANTAGE.

YOU HAVE A WHOLE PARTY INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS APPOINTED BY YOU THAT YOU HAVE PUT IN PLACE AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE WORKING TO RE-ELECT YOU.

ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, WE'VE SEEN POTENTIAL STRONG DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES THAT DON'T WANT TO LOSE THE SUPPORT OF THE WHOLE APPARATUS, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO MESS WITH THAT.

ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, OBVIOUSLY, WE'VE SEEN MORE EAGERNESS BY A LLT OF CANDIDATES TO CHALLENGE TRUMP, BUT THE THEY CAN'T GET PAST THE PARTY INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT A PLACE LIKE NEVADA, WHERE TRUMP CAMPAIGN, OR, THE TRUMP SORT OF APPARATUS WAS ABLE TO GAME THE SYSTEM SO THEY CANNOT LOSE IN NEVADA, IT'S A WIN-WIN SITUATION FOR THEM.

THAT'S THAT POWER.

I THINK THE OTHER QUESTION IS ABOUT POLARIZATION.

SO, IN A TIME WHEN BOTH PARTIES WERE, YOU KNOW, FULL OF -- THEY HAD A LIBERAL, A MODERATE, AND A CONSERVATIVE WING, YOU HAD TO NOMINATE SOMEBODY THAT WOULD APPEAL WIDELY.

THAT'S NO LONGER THE CASE.

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ELECTING THE PRESIDENT ARE A RELATIVELY SMALL BASE.

PEOPLE WHO COME OUT FOR THESE PRIMARY ELECTIONS.

AND SO, THEY MAY FAVOR BIDEN AND TRUMP, EVEN IF A LARGE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY DISAPPROVED OF BOTH OF THESE CANDIDATES.

THERE JUST ISN'T THE SAME NEED TO APPEAL BROADLY -- THEY DON'T FEEL THE SAME NEED TO APPEAL BROADLY TO WIN THE GENERAL ELECTION.

AND THEN THEY ASSUME, GIVEN THE SORT OF NEGATIVE POLARIZATION, THE FEAR AND HOSTILITY TOWARDS THOR PARTY, THAT VOTERS WILL, IN FACT, COME HOME, EVEN IF THEY DON'T LIKE THE NOMINEE, BECAUSE THEY FEAR THE OTHER GUY MORE.

>> ON THE ONE HAND, YOU KNOW, I CAN SEE YOUR POINT, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, THE PARTIES DECIDE WHAT THE PRIMARIES WILL BE, THE PARTIES DECIDE HOW THEY'LL BE RUN.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK YOU CAN MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT PARTIES, THE POLITICAL PARTIES ARE WEAKER THAN THEY ARE EVER BEEN.

LIKE, BACK IN THE DAY, YOU KNOW, PARTIES DECIDED IF YOU COULD RUN OR NOT.

THE PARTIES ORGANIZED THE SLATES.

THEY RECRUITED PEOPLE TO RUN, THEY KIND OF GAVE YOU THE TOOLS TO RUN.

A LOT OF THAT HAS REALLY GONE AWAY.

SO, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

IS IT THAT THEY HAVE TOO MUCH POWER, THEY HAVE TOO LITTLE POWER?

>> I THINK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PARTIES IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT ABOUT THAT.

WE DON'T HAVE THE SORT OF SMOKE-TIMED ROOMS OF YORE.

AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE 2016 REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS LARGELY AGAINST TRUMP AND IT WAS LARGELY AGAINST TRUMP, BUT IT DIDN'T HAVE THE POWER TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.

THEY SORT OF SPUN THEIR WHEELS UNTIL SUDDENLY TRUMP WAS THE NOMINEE.

AND I THINK WHAT WEE SEE FOR EXAMPLE ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE IS THE TRUMP APPARATUS AND THE TRUMP BASE, WHICH IS NOT A MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY AND A MAJORITY OF THE PARTY, BUT NOT A HUGE ONE, IS ABLE TO MAKE THESE THINGS HAPPEN.

SO, IT'S NOT SO MUCH ABOUT THE RNC ITSELF, IT'S MORE ABOUT THE BASE WITHIN THESE PARTIES AND THESE COALITIONS THAT HAVE MANAGED TO SORT OF HIJACK THE PRIMARY AND MAKE IT GO TO THE PLACE THEY GO.

WITHOUT THE SORT OF MODERATING INFLUENCE OF A PARTY ESTABLISHMENT THAT MIGHT SAY, WELL, WE UNDERSTAND THAT THIS GUY APPEALS TO OUR HEART STRINGS, BUT WE NEED SOMEBODY WHO IS GOING TO WIN A GENERAL ELECTION.

THE PEOPLE THAT ARE COMING OUT TO VOTE FOR TRUMP IN MANY CASES AREN'T CONCERNED ABOUT THE GENERAL ELECTION OR THINK TRUMP WILL WIN ANYWAY, THAT HE HAS WON.

THEY ARE SORT OF VOTING EXPRESSIVELY FOR SOMEBODY WHO SPEAKS TO THEIR CONCERNS, EVEN IF ANOTHER CANDIDATE IS ON PAPER MORE ELECTABLE.

WE SEE NIKKI HALEY SAYING, LOOK, I DO BETTER AGAINST BIDEN, AND SO FAR, THAT HASN'T SWUNG ENOUGH VOTERS TO HELP HER OUT AND OVERCOME TRUMP.

>> YOU KNOW, THE OTHER QUESTION I HAD IS THAT POLITICS DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THE SAME THING TO PEOPLE THAT IT USED TO MEAN.

I MEAN, IS IT MORE OF AN IDENTITY ISSUE THAN A MEANS TO AN END?

>> YEAH, I THINK EXPRESSIVENESS IS THE WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT.

AND YOU SEE PEOPLE VOTING EXPRESSIVELY FOR TRUMP.

YOU KNOW, WHAT POLICIES DO THEY SUPPORT?

WELL, THEY SUPPORT A TOUGHER BORDER POLICY.

WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

IT'S OFTEN NOT CLEAR ON THAT SORT OF THING.

IT'S SORT OF VAGUE.

BUT IT'S ABOUT HIM SAYING THE RIGHT THINGS IN THE RIGHT TONE OR VOICE AND STANDING UP TO THE RIGHT PEOPLE.

ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, I THINK YOU SEE THAT THE LACK OF ENTHUSIASM IS THE SAME WAY.

YOU KNOW, BIDEN'S VICTORY IN 2020 WAS REALLY ABOUT BEING ABLE TO SORT OF BE ENOUGH TO ENOUGH PEOPLE, AND WHAT YOU SEE THE SPLINTERING IS PEOPLE SAYING, WAIT A SECOND, I DISAGREE WITH HIM ON THIS OR THAT, AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A REAL DIVISION AMONG DEMOCRATIC STRATEGISTS AND POLLSTERS WHO I'VE TALKED ABOUT WHETHER DEMOCRATS WILL COME HOME.

SOME THINK, WELL, THESE ARE DEMOCRATS, THEY'RE PRAGMATIC, EVENTUALLY, THEY'RE GOING TO SEE, DO WE REALLY WANT TRUMP?

BUT THERE ARE SOME VOTERS WHO WILL SAY, THIS GUY JUST ISN'T -- HE ISN'T DOING IT FOR ME, AND EVEN IF I DON'T LIKE TRUMP, I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR THAT, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXPRESS MY HOPES AND DREAMS FOR AMERICA.

SO, I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT FACTOR IN BOTH OF THESE RACES.

>> SO, THAT LEADS TO THE QUESTION THAT SOME PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE, YOU KNOW, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE WAY POLITICS IS CONDUCTED IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, WHICH IS, YOU HAVE A LOT OF PARTIES.

WHAT HAS NOT BEEN THE REALITY IN THE UNITED STATES, REALLY, EVER, EXCEPT FOR SHORT PERIODS OF TIME.

THERE'S A GROUP THAT YOU WROTE ABOUT CALLED NO LABELS, WHICH IS CONSIDERING A THIRD PARTY PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN AS AN ALTERNATIVE.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON IT?

>> I MEAN, I THINK IT'S FASCINATING TO SEE THIS EFFORT.

IT'S VERY STRANGE IN MANY WAYS, AND THEIR DIAGNOSIS THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT THE CHOICES THEY'RE GIVEN IS BY AND LARGE TRUE.

YOU CAN FIND SUPPORT FOR THAT.

I THINK THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THEY ARE OFFERING A REAL SOLUTION.

YOU KNOW, I THINK WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS, THEY'RE OFFERING BALLOT ACCESS AND CHOOSE A CANDIDATE AND THEN TURN THINGS OVER TO THIS CANDIDATE TO COME UP WITH THEIR OWN PLATFORM.

IT'S A QUASI PARTY.

IT'S NOT CLEAR WHAT THEY STAND FOR.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH THIS IDEA, AS MUCH AS I UNDERSTAND THE MOTIVATION BEHIND IT AND AGREE WITH THEIR ANALYSIS THAT A LOT OF VOTERS WANT ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE.

ONE IS THAT THOUGH THERE IS A THIRST FOR SOME SORT OF MODERATE DIFFERENCE, ONCE YOU START GETTING INTO THE ACTUAL SPECIFICS OF POLICY, PEOPLE GET REALLY DIVIDED AND VOTERS CARE ABOUT ONE THING OR ANOTHER, BUT YOU ARE GOING TO GET PEOPLE SPLITTING ON THINGS LIKE ABORTION, ON IMMIGRATION.

AND I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO RUN INTO TROUBLE THERE.

AND THE OTHER PROBLEM IS STRUCTURAL.

I MEAN, A THIRD PARTY CANDIDATE JUST HAS SO MANY DISADVANTAGES AND THERE'S VERY LITTLE PROSPECT OF THEM WINNING STATES IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, MUCH LESS WINNING A MAJORITY IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

AND THEN THEY ARE IN THE POSITION OF PLAYING SPOILER, WHICH THEY SAY THEY'RE NOT DOING, OR PLAYING SOME COALITION KING MAKER, WHICH THEY HAVE TALK ED ABOUT, BUT I'M NOT SURE HOW THAT WORKS IN THE AMERICAN SYSTEM.

WE HAVE AN APPARATUS BUILD ON >> LOOK, I KNOW YOUR PIECES HAVE BEEN DESCRIBING WHAT YOU SEE, IT'S NOT -- IT'S DESCRIPTIVE, IT'S NO PROSCRIPPIVE.

YOU'RE NOT TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO DO.

BUT DO YOU -- DO HAVE A SENSE OF A WAY FORWARD HERE?

WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

>> YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN, JUST THE LAST COUPLE WEEKS, TALKING TO A LOT OF POLITICAL SCIENTISTS ABOUT DEPOLARIZATION.

IN SO FAR AS MANY OF THESE PROBLEMS WE'RE SEEING, THINGS WE'RE SEEING ARE RELATED TO NEGATIVE POLARIZATION, FEAR OF THE OTHER COUNTRY, OR OTHER PARTY, RATHER, OR A POLARIZATION WITHIN THE PARTIES.

HOW DO WE SEE THOSE DEPOLARIZE?

WHAT CAN BRING US BACK FROM THAT?

AND I HAVE TO SAY, I HAVEN'T HEARD A LOT OF HOPEFUL ANSWERS.

WE JUST DON'T SEE A LOT OF CASES WHERE COUNTRIES WITHOUT A MAJOR SHOCK HAVE GONE FROM SOMETHING, SITUATION LIKE THIS, TO A LESS POLARIZED ONE.

AND THE U.S. SYSTEM IS A TWO-PARTY SYSTEM, WE DON'T HAVE ALTERNATIVES IN THE SAME WAY, AND SO THAT ALSO LOCKS THINGS IN A LITTLE BIT.

SO, I'M NOT REALLY SURE WHERE I WOULD EXPECT THINGS TO CHANGE.

WE'VE HEARD BOTH PARTIES SORT OF, YOU KNOW, DEMOCRATS IN PARTICULAR TALK ABOUT THE IDEA THAT A FEVER WILL BREAK AT SOME POINT, BUT I'M NOT SURE WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE OR WHEN WE WOULD EXPECT THAT TO HAPPEN.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE?

I MEAN, IT'S TRUE THAT DEMOCRATS OFTEN TALK ABOUT THE FEVER, YOU KNOW, THEY WANT THE FEVER TO BREAK, AND THEY SORT OF IMPLY THAT SOME SORT OF VIRUS HAS TAKE TAKEN OVER THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, BUT WHAT ABOUT ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE?

WHAT DO THEY THINK?

DO YOU THINK THEY'LL JUST PERSUADE PEOPLE THAT THEY'RE RIGHT, OR -- WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> REPUBLICAN SUPPORT FOR DONALD TRUMP, I THINK THE MESSAGE THERE IS, I ALONE CAN FIX IT.

TRUMP IS SAYING HE WILL HANDLE IT, HE WILL STEAMROLL HIS OPPONENTS, AND AS WE'VE SEEN FROM WHAT HE'S SAID ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, AS WELL AS WHAT WE SAW WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT, HE'S PERFECTLY HAPPY TO GO AROUND THE LAW AND TO USE MINORITY RULE TO DO THAT.

SO, IT SORT OF SIDE-STEPS ANY NEED TO DO THAT.

IF YOU ARE JUST SEIZING POWER, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ASSEMBLING A GOVERNING COALITION.

>> AGAIN, WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF HOW -- WE'VE TALKED ABOUT WHAT THE PUBLIC THINKS ABOUT THESE CANDIDATES.

BUT DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT THE PUBLIC BROADLY DEFINED THINKS ABOUT THE STATE OF THINGS?

DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF WHETHER THE PUBLIC BROADLY DEFINED THINKS THAT THIS IS OKAY?

THAT THIS LEVEL OF POLARIZATION, IT JUST IS JUST SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH?

OR DO THEY HAVE A DESIRE FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S A MIX.

IT'S A BIT OF A PARADOX, MAYBE.

PEOPLE BEMOAN THIS, THEY SAY THEY'RE UNHAPPY ABOUT IT, AND I THINK THEY ARE GENUINE ABOUT IT, BUT THEN THEY TEND TO BLAME THE OTHER PARTY FOR IT AND THINK THAT THOSE OTHER PEOPLE ARE THE ISSUE, AND SO, EVEN AS PEOPLE ARE UPSET ABOUT IT, I THINK THEY'RE ANALYSIS TENDS TO FEED BACK INTO THE SAME DYNAMIC.

>> DAVID GRAHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.