>> A NEW ADMINISTRATION TAKES AIM AT THE GOVERNMENT.

SHOULD BIDEN PARDON TRUMP CRITICS, JUST IN CASE.

AND CONGESTION PRICING IS BACK STAY TUNED, IVORY TOWER IS NEXT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY.

I'M JOINED AROUND THE TABLE TONIGHT BY SARAH PRALLE FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, ANIRBAN ACHARYA FROM LEMOYNE COLLEGE, LISA DOLAK FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY AND RICK FENNER FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY.

A CLOSE ALLY OF PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP SAYS HIS TERM WILL BE A "HOSTILE TAKEOVER" OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

SEVERAL OF TRUMP'S APPOINTMENTS FOR CABINET AND OTHER TOP POSITIONS SEEM DESIGNED TO RADICALLY RESHAPE THEIR DEPARTMENTS.

WHAT ARE WE TO MAKE OF HIS PICKS?

AND CAN HE BYPASS THE SENATE TO MAKE SURE HE GETS HIS CHOICES?

>> THERE HAVE BEEN SOME NAMES THAT HAVE RAISED EYEBROWS, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE LIST, CLEARLY A THING THAT TRUMP CARES MOST ABOUT IS LOYALTY.

SO HE HAS CHOSEN A NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT HE THINKS HE CAN RELY ON THAT AGREE WITH HIS VIEW THAT TRADITIONAL WASHINGTON IS BROKEN.

HE IS CLEARLY LOOKING MORE TO COMMUNICATORS THAN EXPERTS, LEANING HEAVILY ON FOX NEWS FOR MANY OF IS PICKS, BUT HE IS ALSO, IF YOU REMEMBER, HE RAN AWAY FROM PROJECT 2025 BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ARCHITECTS OF THAT PLAN THAT HAVE FOUND HIS WAY INTO THEIR THEIR WAY INTO HIS PICKS.

CONTROVERSY IS SOMETHING PRESIDENTS TRY TO AVOID.

IT DOESN'T MATTER TO TRUMP ALTHOUGH GATES WAS A LITTLE TOO MUCH.

THAT'S THE ONLY ONE I'M NOT SURPRISED HAS FALLEN BY THE WAY THE IDEA OF RECESS APPOINTMENTS.

CAN HE REALLY DO THAT?

>> THERE ARE TWO PROBLEMS, TWO SIGNIFICANT PROBLEMS FOR HIM.

ONE IS GETTING THE SENATE INTO RECESS, WHICH, IF THE SENATE EXERCISES ITS CONSTITUTIONAL ROLE AND DOESN'T KOWTOW TO HIM, ISN'T NECESSARILY GOING TO BE EASY.

I MEAN THERE IS A THEORY THAT HE CAN ORDER THE SENATE AND THE CONGRESS INTO RECESSION-- INTO RECESSION-- INTO RECESS BUT NO PRESIDENT HAS EVER ATTEMPTED THAT AND THERE ARE GOOD ARGUMENTS ON BOTH SIDES AS TO WHETHER A PRESIDENT COULD DO IT IF THE SENATE RESISTED AT ALL.

BUT EVEN IF HE COULD GET THE CONGRESS INTO RECESS, INTERESTINGLY HE WOULD FACE, I THINK, SOME SIGNIFICANT HEAD WINDS AT, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THE SUPREME COURT.

NOW, ADMITTEDLY, ANY CASE WOULD TAKE SEVERAL MONTHS, AT LEAST TO GET TO THE SUPREME COURT, SO ASSUMING CONGRESS IS IN RECESS, THE SENATE IS IN RECESS AND THESE APPOINTMENTS ARE MADE, THESE PEOPLE WOULD OCCUPY THEIR ROLES FOR SOME PERIOD OF MONTHS.

BUT WHEN I SAY THE SUPREME COURT , YOU KNOW, THE ONLY TIME THE SUPREME COURT ONLY CONSIDERED THE RECESS APPOINTMENTS WAS 10 YEARS AGO WITH THE THE OBAMA RECESS APPOINTMENTS AND REJECTED UNANIMOUSLY THE RECESS APPOINTMENTS BECAUSE THE CONGRESS WASN'T IN RECESS LONG ENOUGH.

BUT INTERESTINGLY, THREE OF THE COURT'S STALWART CONSERVATIVES, ROBERT, ALITO AND THOMAS, TOOK THE VIEW THAT THE RECESS ONLY MEANS THE RECESS BETWEEN THE ANNUAL SESSIONS OF CONGRESS.

SO THIS NOTION OF ORDERING A CONGRESS INTO RECESS WOULD NOT WORK.

AND THE VACANCIES HAVE TO ARISE DURING THAT RECESS.

SO THOSE THREE-- >> SO THAT'S IF HE REALLY TRIES IT AND, OF COURSE IT WOULD GO-- THE COURT CASE WOULD TAKE TIME AND SORT OF MEANS YOU NEED TO GET YOUR CABINET AND PLAYS INTO HIS ARGUMENT THAT THE DEEP STATE IS TRYING TO PREVENT HIM FROM GETTING HIS PEOPLE IN THERE.

DOES HE NEED A RECESS APPOINTMENT.

>> IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE HIS BEST ROUTE ANYWAY SINCE RECESS APPOINTMENTS WOULD ONLY LAST UNTIL 2026.

IT SEEMS PRETTY CLEAR TO ME HE HAS A MAJORITY IN THE SENATE.

THEY'RE GOING FALL IN LINE.

YOU KNOW, MATT GATES WAS A BRIDGE TOO FAR BUT EVERYONE ELSE AS EXTREME AND INCOMPETENT AS THEY ARE, WILL PASS MUSTER WITH A MAJORITY OF REPUBLICANS UNFORTUNATELY.

>> THEY'RE NOT ALL EXTREME AND INCOMPETENT.

HE HAS MANIES PICKED PEOPLE WHO ARE WITHIN THE NORMAL RANGE OF APPOINTMENTS, MARK OWE RUBIO FOR INSTANCE.

>> MY FIRST KNEE JERK REACTION IS LOOK AT THE OLIGARCHS AND INSANE CLOWN POSSIBLY.

THEN I THOUGHT MAYBE HE WILL CHOOSE DANIEL TIGER FOR EDUCATION SECRETARY.

WHEN I WAS THINKING A LITTLE MORE CLOSE I-- A LITTLE MORE CHOSELY, THIS IS NOT SOMETHING REALLY NEW.

WE HAVE THE REVOLVING DOOR IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE PEOPLE ARE LOBBYISTS AND THEN TURN BACK AND BECOME DEFENSE SECRETARIES, THEY BECOME CABINET ADD SECRETARIES AND ADMINISTRATORS SO WE HAVE THAT TRADITION IN THE UNITED STATES TO REALLY PICK PEOPLE FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND PUT THEM TO REPRESENT PARTS OF THE GOVERNMENT.

THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE.

LLOYD AUSTIN, FOR EXAMPLE, HELD SHARES IN RAITH RAYTHEON SO I DON'T THINK IT IS COMPLETELY OUT OF THE ORDINARY BUT PICKS LIKE Dr. OZ WHO HAS BEEN KICKED OUT OF COLUMBIA FOR PEDDLING SNAKE OIL ON TV OR RFK WHO LIKES EATING BEARS.

THESE WOULD BE VERY INTERESTING TOPICS TO SEE AND WHAT I THINK IT WILL BE IS BASICALLY KAY I DON'T CARE-- CHAOS F. THEY TRY TO DO SOMETHING DISRUPTIVE AND OUT OF THE ORDINARY, THESE WOULD BE COURT CASES, IMMEDIATELY PEOPLE WOULD FILE AND THEN THERE WILL BE INJUNCTIONS AND SO ON.

WHAT I WORRY ABOUT IS THIS MASS DEPORTATION IN PEOPLE LIKE WHAT IS HIS NAME, TOM HOL HOLLEMAN.

HE IS A SCARY DUDE.

>> HE HAS BEEN THERE BEFORE.

>> RICK,-- >> I JUST WANTED TO RESPOND.

YOU KNOW, SARAH SAID THAT HE DOESN'T REALLY NEED THESE RECESS APPOINTMENTS AND I AGREE.

BUT SO THAT SENDS A VERY BAD SIGNAL TO ME.

REMEMBER HE SAID ON DAY ONE, I'M GOING TO BE A DICTATOR HE SAID ON DAY ONE.

THE FACT THAT HE IS INSISTING THAT SENATE GO INTO RECESS SO HE CAN MAKE THESE APPOINTMENTS MEANS HE DOESN'T THINK THAT HE NEEDS THEIR CONFIRMATION.

SO, TO ME, THIS SENDS A SIGNAL THAT EVEN THOUGH HE DOESN'T NEED THIS POWER, HE WANTS THE POWER AND IT'S JUST ANOTHER SIGN THAT HE IS GOING TO BE AN AUTHORITARIAN PRESIDENT.

>> A LOT OF WEIGHT ON THE SENATE ADMITTEDLY TO STAND UP HERE.

AND I DO BELIEVE, FIRST OF ALL WE'VE GOT SOME GOOD SIGNS.

THE FACT THAT THUNE WAS ELECTED OVER CORNAN AND RICK SCOTT, AND THE PUSHBACK THAT GATES RECEIVED THIS WEEK.

MAYBE IT WAS ONLY FIVE OF THEM, BUT I'M GOING TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE THAT BETWEEN THE COURTS AND THE SENATE, THAT THE CHECKS AND BALANCES ARE GOING TO HOLD.

>> I'M NOT QUITE AS OPTIMISTIC AS YOU ARE.

I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT.

BUT I FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE GOT WHAT THEY VOTED FOR EVEN IF THEY DON'T DESERVE WHAT THEY VOTED FOR, WHICH WAS CHAOS, WHICH WAS BEING SUBJECT TO TRUMP'S WHIMS AND WORST IDEAS AND VENGEANCES.

I MEAN THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING, AS RICK SAID, LOYAL TO TRUMP, AND THAT MEANS PUTTING HIS AGENDA ABOVE THE PEOPLE'S AGENDA, AOF BO THE CONSTITUTION, ABOVE THE MISSION OFTEN TIMES OF THEIR AGENCY.

AND YOU KNOW, BIDEN, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS NOT ABLE TO CONVINCE A MAJORITY OF VOTERS THAT GOVERNMENT CAN DO GOOD, RIGHT?

THAT GOVERNMENT IS A FORCE COULD GOOD AND CAN BE COMPETENT IN SOLVING PROBLEMS.

TRUMP MIGHT CONVINCE US AFTER FOUR YEARS THAT HAVING A COMPETENT GOVERNMENT IF NOT A BIG GOVERNMENT IS COMPETENT TO AN-- IS PREFERABLE TO AN INCOMPETENT ONE.

AND POINT OUT ON THE GROUND HOW THESE APPOINTMENTS MATTER TO THEIR LIVES.

>> PRESIDENTS HAVE THE POWER OF PARDON AND THEY OFTEN USE IT ON THE WAY OUT THE DOOR.

SOMETIMES THEY USE IT TO PARDON PEOPLE NOT ESPECIALLY DESERVING.

BILL CLINTON PARDONED FUGITIVE MARC RICH AND TRUMP PARDONED PAUL MANAFORT AND ROGER STONE.

NOW COMES A PROVOCATIVE SUGGESTION THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN USE HIS AUTHORITY TO PARDON THE MANY FORMER OFFICIALS AND OTHERS WHO HAVE BEEN VOCAL CRITICS OF DONALD TRUMP.

THE PARDONS WOULD PROTECT, LEGALLY AND FINANCIALLY, PEOPLE LIKE LIZ CHENEY AND MARK MILLEY, WHO TRUMP HAS THREATENED TO GO AFTER WHEN HE ASSUMES OFFICE.

LISA, SHOULD BIDEN TAKE THIS STEP?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH THAT ASSERTION.

THIS WOULD JUST FURTHER POLITICIZE THE RULE OF LAW.

AND FURTHERMORE, THESE PARDONS COULD NOT PROTECT FUTURE CRITICISMS.

SO THE ONLY WAY THEY COULD DO ANY OF THESE PEOPLE ANY GOOD IS IF THEY FOREINTOR ANY FUTURE DISSENT OR CRITICISM.

THEY WOULD NEED ANOTHER PARDON AFTER THEY ENGAGED IN ADDITIONAL CONDUCT.

IT WOULDN'T PROTECT THEM AGAINST ANY STATE LEVEL PROSECUTION, SO IF TRUMP ALLIES IN THE STATE GOVERNMENTS DECIDED TO GO AFTER THEM, IT WOULD DO THEM NO GOOD AND FURTHERMORE, PARDONS ARE TRADITIONALLY VIEWED AS A TACIT ADMISSION OF GUILT.

SO FOR THAT REASON, AND FOR OTHER REASONS, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE MIGHT BE INCLINED TO TURN THEM DOWN.

>> IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU SAID IT WOULDN'T PROTECT THEM AGAINST FUTURE CRITICISM, WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

BUT EVEN THE FACT THAT THAT SEEMS TO BE ON THE TABLE IS CRITICISM.

>> I JUST DON'T THINK TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT.

IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

THIS JUST ISN'T RIGHT.

>> NO, I TOTALLY AGREE.

YOU CAN, ON THE SURFACE, MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT WE SHOULD PROTECT OR AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT PEOPLE LIKE LIZ CHENEY AND MIKE PENCE DID SOME COURAGEOUS, I'LL USE THE WORD COURAGEOUS THINGS IN TERMS OF STANDING UP TO DONALD TRUMP WHEN SO MANY REPUBLICANS DID FOR A COUPLE OF MINUTES AND THEN SAW WHICH SIDE THEIR BREAD WAS BUTTERED ON AND WENT BACK RIGHT TO HIM.

SO I WILL ACCEPT THE FACT THAT WE OWE THEM SOMETHING.

BUT THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT.

AGAIN, IT'S ALMOST A TACIT ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT THEY HAVE DONE SOMETHING WRONG.

IT ALSO ISN'T GOING TO PREVENT TRUMP FROM DOING OTHER THINGS TO HARASS THESE PEOPLE AND TRY TO PROSECUTE THEM IN VARIOUS WAYS.

SO I AGREE THIS SENDS A TERRIBLE SIGNAL AND I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD MOVE DOWN THAT PATH.

>> SARAH, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> I DON'T ACTUALLY AGREE.

I HAVE A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TAKE.

I THINK YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE REALLY GOOD.

BUT I ALSO FEEL LIKE AND I'M GOING TO BE SAYING THIS A LOT OF NEXT FOUR YEARS, I'VE SAID IT BEFORE.

DESPERATE TIMES CALL FOR DESPERATE MEASURES.

I THINK IN FOUR YEARS IT'S GOING TO FEEL REALLY QUAINT THAT WE ARE SO WORRIED ABOUT THE NORMS THAT BIDEN BROKE IF HE ENDS UP PARDONING THESE PEOPLE.

I MEAN LET'S KEEP IN MIND, TRUMP IS PROBABLY GOING TO PARDON HIMSELF WHILE HE IS IN OFFICE.

AND PARDON ALL THESE JANUARY 6 FOLKS WHO TRIED TO OVERTHROW THE ELECTION.

AND SO I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY NOT A BAD IDEA.

I THINK IT'S, LIKE YOU GUYS WERE SAYING, I FEEL LIKE WE OWE THESE PEOPLE SOMETHING FOR THEIR COURAGE.

AND I'M NOT REALLY WORRIED ABOUT NORM BREAKING.

I MEAN TRUMP GOT US INTO THIS POSITION, RIGHT?

SO LET'S PUT THE BLAME WHERE IT'S DESERVED, NOT ON BIDEN.

THE PARDON POWER IS BROAD AND SO THERE IS NO CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITS REALLY ON PARDON POWER.

SO I DON'T SEE HOW THIS IS REALLY DESTROYING ANYTHING OF IMPORTANCE.

I THINK IT'S PROVIDING SOME PROTECTION FROM LAWSUITS THAT, YOU KNOW, LOTS OF MONEY THAT SOMEONE LIKE LIZ CHENEY WOULD HAVE TO SPEND IF SHE HAD TO DEFEND HERSELF.

>> ALTHOUGH IT PROVIDES NO PROTECTION AGAINST CIVIL LITIGATION.

IT'S ONLY AGAINST FEDERAL CRIMINAL OFFENSES.

>> IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF PRESIDENT TRUMP WERE REALLY TO GO AFTER PEOPLE THE WAY HE SAYS, HE WOULD WANT IT TO BE A CRIMINAL CHARGE MPLE BUT I TAKE YOUR POINT.

ANIRBAN, IS THERE A MORAL OBLIGATION TO-- FOR BIDEN TO TRY TO PROTECT THESE PEOPLE WHO STOOD UP.

>> IT'S BREAKING NORMS TO PARDON PREEMPTIVELY IN THIS CONTEXT BUT NORMS WERE BROKEN.

TRUMP DIDN'T PUT HIS TAX RECORDS.

HE WANTS TO, YOU KNOW, PARDON THE JANUARY 6 RIOTERS AND SO ON.

SO I'M CONFLICTED ABOUT THIS.

I DO THINK THAT IF ONE SIDE IS DOING SOMETHING THAT IS SO EGREGIOUS, LIKE THE OTHER SIDE, IT'S WITHIN THEIR RIGHTS TO FOLLOW THAT, BUT DO I HAVE A LOT OF LOVE FOR CHENEYS NO, I DO NOT.

BUT ALSO WHAT WOULD THEY BE PROSECUTED ON.

I THINK TRUMP WILL LAY OFF ON THIS.

WHAT ARE CRIMES HE WILL FIND IN THE STATE LEVEL OR FEDERAL LEVEL?

THIS WILL BE TOO MUCH OF A DISTRACTION TO HIM.

SO I THINK THIS IS A BOOGIE PERSON HE RAISES SO PEOPLE CAN FOCUS ON THAT WHILE HE CAN CHANNEL OUT ALL KINDS OF CARVEOUTS WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT.

IT MIGHT BE A SMOKE SCREEN MORE THAN ANYTHING REAL.

>> AND THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM IS STILL IN PLACE.

>> YOU RAISE A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

AT WHAT POINT DO YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE.

AND THAT IS ONE-- YOU KNOW, IF YOU AND I ARE PLAYING CHESS AND YOU CHEAT, I CAN WALK AWAY AND SAY I'M NOT PLAYING WITH YOU ANYMORE.

BUT WHAT PS IF I DON'T HAVE THAT CHOICE BECAUSE BECAUSE WE ARE BOTH IN THE SAME EMPLOYMENT OR WE ARE BOTH IN THE SAME... AT WHAT POINT DO I JUST SIT THERE, CONTINUE TO PLAY THE GAME BY THE RULES AND YOU CHEAT AND WIN EVERY TIME.

I UNDERSTAND SARAH, ALSO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

I DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT LINE IS.

FOR ME, THAT DOESN'T CROSS THIS LINE.

>> IF BIDEN IS TO USE HIS POWER OF PARDON, THERE IS ONE OTHER PARDON THAT IS OUT THERE, POTENTIAL PARDON, HIS SON.

>> WHICH I ALSO WOULD SAY IS COMPLETELY NOT RIGHT.

IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT.

>> I DON'T THINK HE WILL DO THAT HONESTLY.

I THINK THAT WOULD LOOK TOO POLITICAL.

BUT FOR THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACTUALLY COMMITTED NO CRIMES, YOU KNOW, I DON'T SEE HOW THAT IS BEING POLITICAL BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY DIDN'T COMMIT CRIMES, RIGHT?

AND SO HE IS PROTECTING THEM.

IT'S A PREEMPTIVE SORT OF PROTECTIVE MEASURE.

>> BUT THEY HAVEN'T COMMITTED CRIMES BUT I THINK AS LISA STARTED OFF SAYING THERE IS AN IMPLICATION THAT WHEN YOU PARRED OPEN SOMEBODY, THEY HAVE.

>> IF YOU ASK LIZ CHENEY IN PRIVATE OR ADAM SCHIFF IF THEY LIKE IT, I'M GUESSING THEY WOULD SAY YES.

>> IT WOULD DO NO GOOD IN THE FUTURE.

IT WOULD GIVE THEM NO PROTECTION AGAINST FUTURE CRITICISMS.

>> I'M GUESSING LIZ CHENEY WOULD NOT WANT IT.

>> WOULD TURN IT DOWN.

>> I THINK SHE IS TOUGH AS NAILS AND FIGHT HIM UNTIL THE END.

: >> CONGESTION PRICING IN NEW YOUR CITY IS BACK AND SET TO START IN JANUARY.

IT WILL NOW COST 9 DOLLARS FOR CARS TO ENTER MANHATTAN BELOW 60TH STREET, NOT FIFTEEN DOLLARS AS ORIGINALLY PLANNED.

THE MONEY WILL GO TO MODERNIZE AND MAINTAIN NEW YORK'S MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM.

GOVERNOR HOCHUL HAD PAUSED THE PLAN SUDDENLY LAST JUNE, BUT SAYS SHE IS ACTING NOW TO GET IT IN PLACE BEFORE TRUMP TAKES OFFICE.

HOCHUL INSISTS THE PAUSE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS.

ANIRBAN, SHOULD WE HAVE CONGESTION PRICING?

>> WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE.

SIRG IS A VERY COST EFFECTIVE AND EASY WAY TO GET THE RESULTS WE WANT.

LESS CONGESTION, LESS LOSS OF HOURS WAITING IN TRAFFIC JAMS AND LESS POLLUTION.

ENGLAND DID THIS FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS, BUT THERE WAS SOMETHING INTERESTING THAT HAPPENED THOUGH, RIGHT?

THE POLLUTION WENT DOWN, BUT THE CONGESTION AND THE WAITING TIME DID NOT REALLY LOWER OVER TIME.

AND THE REASON BEHIND THAT IS A LOT OF DoorDash, DELIVERY DRIVERS, THEY NEED TO GO INTO THE CITY CONSTANTLY BECAUSE PEOPLE ORDER FOOD AND THAT, ALONG WITH OTHER BIKE LANES AND STUFF THE CITY HAD PUT FORWARD KIND OF REDUCED THAT ROAD SPACE AND IT DIDN'T PUT A DENT ON THAT CONGESTION.

BUT IT IMPROVES PUBLIC TRANSPORT.

IT REDUCED POLLUTION AND SO ON.

SO, YOU KNOW, WE CAN THINK ABOUT THE ASSIST WHERE 50% OF PEOPLE ENTERING THE AREA DURING THAT TIME, ARE TAXI DRIVERS AND VEHICLES LIKE UBER AND OTHER KINDS OF DELIVERY DRIVERS.

WE CAN DO A TAX CREDIT, RIGHT?

TAX CREDIT IS THE BEST WAY TO DO IT RATHER THAN EXEMPTIONS FOR PARTICULAR THINGS AND I THINK THAT SHOULD WORK.

BUT PEOPLE IN NEW JERSEY ARE ALREADY QUITE PISSED OFF BECAUSE THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, COMING FOR $15 INTO NEW YORK.

>> ECONOMISTS LOVE TO TALK ABOUT USING TAXES TO CHANGE BEHAVIOR.

>> SURE.

AND THE ECONOMISTS WOULD ANSWER YOUR FIRST POINT THAT IT DIDN'T LOWER CONGESTION WHICH MEANS THE PRICE WASN'T HIGH ENOUGH.

AND SO I THINK WHAT HAPPENS IS WE HAVE SOME GOALS HERE THAT AREN'T TOTALLY CONSISTENT.

WE WANT TO LOWER CONGESTION AND LOWER POLLUTION, BUT THE MAIN EMPHASIS NOW IN TERMS OF WHAT KATHY HOCHUL IS TALKING ABOUT IS RAISING REVENUE.

SO LOWERING THE PRICE TO $9 FROM $15 MIGHT ACTUALLY RAISE MORE REVENUE THAN THE $15 TAX BECAUSE FEWER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE DISCOURAGED AND THERE MAY BE MORE VEHICLES GOING IN.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS, THAT DOESN'T GET US TO THE FIRST TWO GOALS.

SO I THINK THIS, FROM AN ECONOMIST'S POINT OF VIEW, VERY GOOD MOVE.

FROM A POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW, I THINK THERE IS A LOT TO-- SHE IS GOING UPSTREAM AGAINST A LOT OF GROUPS FROM THE SUBURBS AND FROM NEW JERSEY.

NOW ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I FOUND WAS THAT A BIG PERCENTAGE OF THESE PEOPLE WHO DRIVE INTO MANHATTAN ARE GOVERNMENT WORKERS BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR PARKING.

SO AN ALTERNATIVE WAY OF OR DEALING WITH THIS IS PERHAPS GETTING RID OF THAT PERK.

MIGHT CAUSE SOME OF THOSE FOLKS NOT TO DRIVE INTO MANHATTAN.

>> SARAH.

>> WELL, HOCHUL IS NOT BEING ELECTED BY NEW JERSEY RESIDENTS FORTUNATELY.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE MUCH SAY.

BUT AS FAR AS LOWERING THE PRICES $9, I KNOW OUR COLLEAGUE AARON STRONG PUT THAT AS HIS F FOR LAST WEEK.

AND THAT'S AN INTERESTING POINT THAT RICK MADE ABOUT RAISING REVENUE.

IT ACTUALLY MIGHT RAISE MORE.

THE OTHER SORT OF BENEFIT OF HAVING A KIND OF GRADUAL INCREASE IN THE FEE, IT'S A PRETTY GOOD POLICY DESIGN BECAUSE WHAT IT ALLOWS IS PEOPLE TO GETS USED TO THIS POLICY CHANGE AND GRADUALLY FIND OTHER WAYS OF GETTING INTO THE CITY, OF COMMUTING.

AND THEN AS THE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION HOPEFULLY IMPROVES, BECAUSE OF THESE INVESTMENTS, IT BECOMES MORE ATTRACTIVE AND EASIER AND MORE CONVENIENT FOR PEOPLE TO USE THE BUSES, THE TRAINS, THE SUBWAYS AND THEN YOU START RAISING THE PRICE EVEN MORE, RIGHT?

SO THAT KIND OF A PHASE-IN APPROACH FOR FEES IS ACTUALLY A PRETTY GOOD POLICY DESIGN EVEN IF IT MEANS THAT THERE IS SOME REVENUE ISSUES.

>> I USED TO RIDE METRO NORTH INTO MANHATTAN FOR MANY YEARS AND YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD A LOT MORE TRAINS, TOO.

THERE IS ANOTHER COST THERE.

LISA.

>> I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE STAYING OFF THE SUBWAY STILL.

AND SO I THINK MORE COULD BE DONE TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE AND SAFE ON THE SUBWAYS.

SUBWAY RIDERSHIP IS VERY MUCH DOWN.

WHEN I HAVE BEEN IN NEW YORK LATELY, THE CONGESTION IS HORRIBLE, WORSE THAN EVER.

THIS NOTION THAT PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO THE OFFICE, MAYBE IT'S THE DoorDashERS THAT HAVE TAKEN THEIR PLACE BUT IT'S AS CONGESTED AS IT HAS EVER BEEN FROM MY ANECDOTAL OBSERVATION AND I THINK GET MORE PEOPLE ON THE SUBWAY, DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

THE OTHER THING IS ON THE REVENUE SIDE, THE WAY THIS IS GOING TO WORK, THE MTA IS GOING TO BORROW THE MONEY FOR THESE SUBWAY IMPROVEMENTS AND LOWERING THIS DOWN TO $9 IS GOING TO CAUSE THEM TO HAVE TO RESTRUCTURE THE WAY THEY DO THIS BONDING, THE BORROWING.

AND SO IT ACTUALLY MIGHT RAISE MORE MONEY BUT IT'S ALSO GOING TO COST MORE.

THE BORROWING IS GOING TO COST MORE.

>> ONE THING WE ARE MISSING IS THAT THERE IS A NEW TAX PROPOSED WHICH WILL DEFUND MTA OF FEDERAL FUNDING IF THEY DO THIS.

AND ANOTHER THING IS BELOW 60th STREET YES, BUT YOU HAVE THESE TWO HIGHWAYS ON THE SIDE OF MANHATTAN THAT YOU CAN ALWAYS USE WITHOUT PAYING ANY TOLLS.

THAT IS COMPLETELY FREE.

PEOPLE FORGET THAT PART.

>> YOU HAVE ANOTHER POINT.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, YOU KNOW, WHILE WE ARE FOCUSING ON THE ANGER OF THE DRIVERS, I THINK THE POINT IS, 75% OF THE PEOPLE GO INTO MANHATTAN USE MASS TRANSIT.

SO IF WE ARE ABLE TO USE THIS MONEY, IF, AND THEY USE IT EFFICIENTLY TO IMPROVE MASS TRANSIT, IT COULD BE A WIN POLITICALLY BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE USE THAT VERSUS DRIVING.

>> WE NEED TO GO TO As AND Fs.

SARAH WE WILL BEGIN WITH YOUR F. >> OKAY.

SO MY F GOES TO NORTH CAROLINA SCHOOL VOUCHER PROGRAM, WHICH USES TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO FUND PRIVATE SCHOOL TUITION FOR ALL STUDENTS IN THE STATE.

THERE WAS A RECENT INVESTIGATION BY PRO-PUBLICA THAT FOUND THAT PRIVATE SCHOOLS ACROSS THE SOUTH ESTABLISHED FOR WHITE CHILDREN DURING DESEGREGATION ARE BENEFITING FROM TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THROUGH THIS PROGRAM.

THESE SCHOOLS DO NOT REFLECT THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE COMMUNITIES THEY ARE IN.

ONE PRIVATE SCHOOL, NORTHEAST ACADEMY IS 99% WHITE IN A COUNTY THAT RUNS ABOUT 40% WHITE.

TAX DOLLARS SHOULD NOT GO TO PROGRAMS THAT WORSEN SCHOOL SEGREGATION AND HELP WEALTHY WHITE KIDS ATTEND PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

>> ANIRBAN.

>> THE SEGREGATION DATABASE, I READ THAT REPORT.

EXCELLENT.

MY F IN A SERIES I CALL THE RISE OF THE AMERICAN TALIBAN.

REGRESSIVE RIGHT IN FLORIDA UNABLE TO POLICE WHAT PROFESSORS SAY IN CLASS ARE POISED TO DEMOLISH ENTIRE CLASSES FROM THE CURRICULUM.

THIS TACTIC SITS WELL WITH THE SLOGAN MAKE AMERICA DUMB AGAIN.

>> LISA.

>> MY F GOES TO CALIFORNIA FOR TAKING SO LONG TWO AND A HALF WEEKS SO FAR, TO COUNT ITS 2024 GENERAL ELECTION VOTES LEAVING AS OF YESTERDAY, TWO HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES RACES, FIVE STATE LEGISLATIVE RACES AND A STATEWIDE BALLOT PROPOSITION STILL UNDETERMINED.

CALIFORNIA HAS THE MOST VOTES TO COUNT, FOR SURE.

BUT THE DELAY IS ALSO ATTRIBUTABLE TO THE STATE'S HEF HEAVY RELY ALPS ON MAIL-IN VOTES THAT TAKE MUCH LONGER TO VERIFY AND PROCESS.

THESE AND OTHER CALIFORNIA PROCEDURES ARE INTENDED TO INCREASE VOTER PARTICIPATION AND THAT'S GREAT.

BUT TAKING SO LONG TO DECIDE ELECTIONS CAN ALSO FOSTER DISTRUST AND SUSPICION REGARDING THE INTEGRITY OF THE COUNT.

>> MY F GOES TO THE PITIFUL AD CAMPAIGN FOR A.M. INTELLIGENCE.

THE NEW A.I.

TOOL ON APPLE IPHONE 16 FEATURING LAZY SLACKERS AND USERS THAT USE APPLE INTELLIGENCE TO DECEIVE THEIR BOSSES AND PEOPLE IT USES A.I.

TO WHIP UP A PHOTO ALBUM IN FIVE SECONDS BUT WHAT GETS ME THE MOST, AT THE END OF EACH COMMERCIAL, THE LOSER GIVES THIS SMUG LOOK TO THE CAMERA THAT SEEMS TO SAY, I JUST USED TO APPLE INTELLIGENCE TO PUT ONE OVER ON YOU, MY HUSBAND.

WHAT A SUCKER.

>> SARAH, AS.

>> MY A GOES TO THE GRASSROOTS ORGANIZERS AND ORGANIZATIONS WHO ARE CONTINUING TO STAND UP FOR DEMOCRACY AND JUSTICE DURING WHAT IS GUARANTEED TO BE A TRYING TIME.

ONE OF THESE GROUPS IS RIGHTS HERE IN CENTRAL NEW YORK.

THE CNY SOLIDARITY COALITION.

I GIVE THESE PEOPLE A LOT OF CREDIT.

IT IS HARD WORK.

MANY OF US FEEL EXHAUSTED.

THANKS TO MY FELLOW CITIZENS FOR KEEPING UP THE GOOD FIGHT.

>> MY A GOES TO THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT ISSUING ARREST WARRANTS FOR BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND GALLANT FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

THIS COMES DAYS AFTER A COMMITTEE SAID THAT ISRAEL IS COMMITTING GENOCIDE.

SO, YOU KNOW, NOW WE ARE WAITING FOR SOME ARRESTS.

>> LISA.

>> MY A GOES TO CALIFORNIA TEEN SOPHIA PARK AT THE AGE OF 17 BECAME THE YOUNGEST PERSON TO PASS THE CALIFORNIA BAR EXAM.

ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT ATTORNEY LICENSING EXAMS IN THE COUNTRY.

>> WOW.

>> AND RICK, YOUR A.

>> MY A GOES TO RAFAEL NADAL WHO PLAYED HIS LAST PROFESSIONAL TENNIS MATCH THIS WEEK, INCREDIBLE CAREER WITH 22 GRAND SLAMS AND GOLD MEDALS.

WON 14 FRENCH OPEN TITLES.

HE DESERVES TO BE REMEMBERED AS ONE OF THE CLASSIEST AND MOST GRACIOUS OF ATHLETES.

GRACIAS RAFA.

>> YOU HAVE YOUR BAUBLE HEAD THERE.

WAY TO GO RAFI.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS EVENING.

FOR COMMENTS YOU CAN WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON YOUR SCREEN.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO VIEW THE SHOW AGAIN YOU CAN VIEW IT ONLINE AT WCNY.ORG.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FOR ALL OF US AT IVORY TOWER, HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.