- Did my leg shrink?

I can move though.

I mean, I knew Alaska Airlines premium class had extra leg room, but this, this feels different.

Okay.

Crazy idea.

On the count of three, I'm going to try and cross my, oh boy, that's nice.

- Woo.

- And now the Cascade PBS Ideas Festival featuring journalists, newsmakers and innovators from around the country in conversation about the issues making headlines.

Thank you for joining us for Tug of War, covering the Crisis in the Middle East with Nada Bashir, moderated by David.

Re, before we begin, a special thank you to our stage sponsor, Alaska Airlines and our founding sponsor, the Kerry and Linda Inger Foundation.

Finally, thank you to our host sponsor, Amazon.

- Hi there.

I'm David Ryan, the host of CNN's Tug of War podcast, recording live from the Cascade PBS Ideas Festival.

If you haven't listened to our show before every episode, I talk to one of CNN's many correspondents and reporters who are on the ground in Israel and all across the Middle East to take us beyond the headlines of Israel's war in Gaza.

One of those correspondents is my guest today, CNN's Nada Bashir.

She is an international correspondent based in London, and so great to see Nada.

We talked on the podcast many times, but only through a computer screen, so this is so great to see you in person.

It's - Great to see you in person, - So - Thank you.

So I kind of wanna go back to October 7th and the days after those horrible Hamas terror attacks where over 1200 people were killed, hostages were taken.

And you know, in those days after CNN kind of jumped in to cover the story in a big way, in a way only CNN really can fanning out across the region, our podcast.

We were the first major news organization to go to have a daily podcast to kind of cover those first chaotic weeks.

But I wanted to hear about your perspective as a TV correspondent.

What was your first assignment when this happened?

- Well, look, of course, CNN spr into action, as you said, across the region, particularly in Israel, covering the immediate aftermath of the Hamas terror attacks.

But I think for a lot of us who have spent a lot of time covering the Middle East and in particular gaze on the occupied West Bank, a lot of us immediately began to think about what the potential response would be and potentially airstrikes in Gaza.

Yeah.

So a big focus was, you know, how do we get into the right places that we need to be?

Right.

And in particular, what will access to Gaza look like?

So one of my first assignments, or really my first assignment was to head to the UE to Dubai, where we were waiting for aid access to the Gaza Strip.

- This is kind of what I want to talk about, because the access to Gaza for journalists, you know, independent media really can't get in because of Israeli restrictions, despite a lot of push from Western media to get in there.

So we've had to rely a lot on Palestinian journalists.

And so I guess I'm wondering, when you are putting together a TV package for, you know, covering what is happening on the ground there, like what does that process look like with that?

You know, knowing that we can't be there ourselves, - We are hugely reliant on our Palestinian colleagues inside Gaza.

We have a number of producers and photojournalist who work with CNA and Za Mohamed among many others who have been so vital in documenting what is happening in Gaza.

Of course, had we had access to Gaza, if we were able to get access to Gaza, as we continue to push to try and get access to, our teams would be there on the ground directly.

But that simply hasn't been the case.

The only way that journalists have been able to get in so far is on guided tours with members of the Israeli military.

The embeds.

The embeds, which of course, are heavily restricted.

We are only seeing what the Israeli military wants us to see.

Right.

And of course, our colleague, Clarissa Ward was able to get access independently with an aid organization, but again, a very limited timeframe there not really able to see the full picture of what is happening in Gaza.

So it's these Palestinian journalists on the ground who are really bearing witness to what is happening, sharing what is happening with us.

And of course, they're doing this under the most horrific of circumstances.

Many of them with their loved ones, family members, of course, who've been killed.

Yeah.

And, and also at a huge risk to their own lives as well.

Many journalists have been injured.

This is the deadliest conflict for media workers, according to Yeah, - I was, I was looking at a chart the other day, and it was like unbelievable.

The, the spike in the, the deaths, you know, for this war compared to all these other past conflicts.

- It's unbelievable.

It's shocking.

It is distressing.

And yet these journalists continue to do their jobs and it is so vital, particularly because we can't get access.

And of course these are journalists who know the story inside out.

This is their lives.

They've lived through this, and we're not just talking about living in a conflict zone post October 7th, but we're also talking about what it means to live as a Palestinian in the Gaza Strip, which has been under a blockade since 2007.

It is a unique experience for a journalist living in those conditions.

And it is so vital for us as western media outlets to listen to these journalists to rely on their expertise and to really value the storytelling that is coming out of Gaza.

- Yeah.

So, so you kind of deal with them directly when you're putting together your reports.

So what did they tell you about, like, what is being lost as we have, as we hear all these heated discussions about this conflict, you know, on college campuses or, or wherever it may be?

- I mean, for Palestinian journalists, both in the Gaza Strip and also in the occupied West Bank, the message that we've heard time and time again is that their perspectives are not being listened to, that they're not being relied upon.

That we are seeing international journalists flying in to tell the story when there are so many voices inside Gaza and in the occupied West Bank who have been desperate to tell the story and continue to try and tell their story.

- They're like, I've been saying this even before October 7th, that that things are bad.

Yes, absolutely.

We need people to pay attention.

- Yeah, absolutely.

And we've heard that from our own colleagues in the Gaza Strip and in the occupied West Bank in Jerusalem.

I mean, this is a situation that has been bubbling for some time now, and we've been talking, you know, preoc October 7th.

We were talking a lot about the potential for another infa, another uprising, another battle of violence in the occupied West Bank.

And I think for a lot of time, international attention really shifted away from what was happening there.

But you know, what is happening in Gaza right now is horrific, and it is a huge focus, of course, for outlets like CNN, but we can't lose sight of the fact that there have been huge issues in Gaza, huge human rights violations in both Gaza and the occupied West Bank.

Yeah.

Before October 7th.

And this is something that Palestinian journalists have been documenting throughout.

- Right.

And, and I'm interested too in how the, the message and, and how the coverage is kind of different, you know, in different places in the Middle East that, that you've been to as opposed to, you know, in other parts of the world.

How do you see that distinction?

- Well, look, when we're covering this story in the Middle East and we speak to people across the region, this isn't a new story for them.

The Israel Palestine conflict, the question of Palestinian self-determination is something which is deeply personal for many in the Middle East.

It is something that is covered frequently by Middle Eastern news outlets and in great depth as well, in a way that we don't necessarily see in the West, perhaps in the US or elsewhere in Europe, in the uk.

And so there is a very different approach to how it is covered and particular with regards to the depth in which is covered, because of course, this is a conflict which has wide reaching impacts, and that is felt primarily in the Middle East.

I mean, you know, we're seeing the war play out in the Gaza Strip.

We're seeing the uptick in violence in the occupied West Bank, but we're also feeling the effects of it in other countries from Lebanon to Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt.

So this is a conflict which impacts many across the Middle East.

It is deeply personal.

- I'm interested in, in like, the idea of the, the protests that we've seen on, on campuses in the US the last couple weeks.

Yeah.

And they, and they're kind of spreading all over the world now.

And I think we hear from young people, and they, some of them say, this is the first time I'm hearing about a lot of these issues.

And like, my, my eyes are kind of open to what has been going on here for the first time.

Do you think that's kind of the same in, in other countries?

Or, or is has it been going on for so long that's just kind of deeply ingrained in people there?

- I do think there is a generational shift.

We're seeing it a lot with young people who have, of course, access to social media, who rely predominantly now on social media for their updates on what is happening in Gaza and across the region and who are seeing the unfiltered raw footage coming out of Gaza.

Yeah.

And I think that has drawn a, a very strong reaction from those in the younger generation.

And we've seen that play out in college campuses.

Now, the Palestine solidarity movement on campus isn't new.

It's been around for decades.

We've seen them active, we've seen them protest before, but never on this scale.

But I don't think we've seen a war impacting the Palestinian people on this scale in the last few decades either.

So the reaction is very strong, but it's also not just about solidarity with the Palestinian people.

I mean, one of the primary messages that we're hearing in these college protests is an anti-war message.

Many do not want to see this war play out.

Many are calling for a ceasefire, which includes peace in Gaza, but also the return of hostages, crucially.

Right.

And also, they're calling for divestment in projects that they feel don't align with their values.

They don't want to be, you know, associated with an institution, a university or college, which is providing funding or whatever support it may be, to projects which they feel don't align with their values, and perhaps don't align with their wish to see a ceasefire.

- Yeah.

And I, I think a lot of the response from law enforcement and, and how that's kind of played out is distracted right.

From some of the message.

And that's, that's gotta be frustrating too for those protesters.

- Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, we've seen quite the crackdown from law enforcement, from university officials and authorities, and we've seen a lot of focus also on the more fringe elements of these protest movements.

So of course, there have been incidents, antisemitism of behavior, which is simply not appropriate.

Yeah.

But these are minority voices.

These are fringe voices as there often are in these protest movements.

And of course, we have to remember that protests are designed to disrupt.

Right.

That is, that is the point.

That's the goal.

That is the central message.

Right.

And so, yes, they are disruptive, but that is the point.

They have largely been peaceful.

And in fact, much of the violence that we've seen, or at least the tensions that we've seen have come about as a result of that crackdown by law enforcement officials and in response to that.

But I think the primary message that we've been hearing throughout these college protests, which are now spreading to where I live in the United Kingdom, is that they want to see an end to this war.

They want to see peace in Gaza, they want to see a return of all the hostages.

And clearly this has really driven a strong reaction from the younger generation.

And while this is sort of, we've seen this intensify on college campuses recently, it's been quite remarkable to see over the last seven months the continued protests as - Well.

Yeah.

It's like, it, it, it has not led up.

If anything, it's getting more and more.

- Not at all.

And I mean, in previous instances where we've seen airstrikes on Gaza, where we've seen assaults on the occupied West Bank, we have seen protests, but they haven't lasted as long.

They haven't necessarily been as big.

I mean, over the last seven months, we've seen continued protests in New York and Washington, in LA, in London, and you know, we're seeing US officials resigning, we're seeing others in other industries protesting being quite vocal in their opposition to whatever institution they belong, supporting or as they see facilitating the ongoing war in Gaza.

This isn't something we've seen before.

I mean, the scale of what we're seeing in Gaza is hard to put into words.

More than 34,600 people killed in about seven months.

And, you know, the death toll is continuing to rise.

We are not seeing the war let up.

The airstrikes are continuing, we're hearing more warnings now of famine in Gaza.

We're seeing horrific images coming out.

And I think it is getting to a point where for a lot of people, it is hard to watch what is unfolding in Gaza while also seeing governments continuing to provide, for example, military support as we've seen in the us.

- Well, I want to ask about the images.

And you talk about the, the constant stream on social media and how people are just seeing that.

So as a correspondent who is trying to kind of distill some of that into a, a story for tv, how do you, you know, how do you approach that idea and the idea that, you know, people may have been seeing a certain story play out on social media for days before they see it?

Yeah.

On tv?

- Yeah.

I mean, we get a lot of responses, particularly from members of the younger generation saying, you know, we've seen this video on Instagram on TikTok a week ago.

- Why am I just seeing it now?

- And seeing exactly, oh, CNN's only paying attention now is the common response.

But our job isn't to mimic social media.

We see this video coming in.

It often goes viral on platforms like Instagram and TikTok, but our job is to corroborate, to make sure we have all the facts, all the data, all the context needed in order to actually tell a full story, to paint a full picture of what is happening on the ground.

Our job is to push back as well on authorities to get the data and the information needed from authorities on the ground like Gaza's, civil defense and the health ministry, but also to put those questions to the Israeli military as well, so that we can present this full picture of what is happening.

And of course, a lot of the video that we're seeing coming in from Gaza is very distressing.

It is very graphic.

And seven months on the worry is that people become desensitized, these sorts of images.

And so our job is also to make sure that the videos that we are putting out there, the stories that we are putting out there are as powerful as possible so that they resonate with the audience as opposed to somebody sort of looking through it and then flicking - Just un Yeah, just unfiltered, carnage.

What stories have stuck out to you?

What people have you met while on assignment that have kind of stayed with you all these seven months?

- It's hard to forget any of the, of the people that we've met over the last seven months, or any of the voices that we've heard from Gaza, particularly the children who are now, you know, seven months on, have seen things that, - You know, nobody should see.

- Nobody should see.

Yeah.

And so that's very difficult.

Obviously we can't get access to Gaza.

We spent a lot of time in Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank, speaking to Palestinian families.

There, we visited a number of families who actually were evacuated from Gaza before October 7th for medical treatment and have now been unable to return, of course, because of the war.

Wow.

And so we spoke to children and their relatives who were able to accompany them for medical treatment.

And despite the unfolding catastrophe in Gaza, all of them told us they wanted to go home.

You know, that they were worried about their loved ones back home.

- They would rather be back there where the airstrikes are falling.

Yeah, yeah.

To be with their families.

Yeah.

- I think it's very interesting the, the dynamic amongst the Palestinian community.

And what I've noticed, and what I think a lot of people perhaps on the outside would underestimate, is the deep sense of attachment that members of the Palestinian community feel to their home, to their land.

The land.

Yeah.

And that is deeply important to them.

So when we hear from people in Gaza, often they'll say, we don't want to leave, even if there are airstrikes.

I mean, even if we're hearing warnings of another offensive coming closer, we will stay, we're not leaving.

- 'cause it's kind of symbolic.

Right.

It's, it's, but even more than just themselves, it's - About Yeah, absolutely.

Whole people.

I mean, the idea of a voluntary withdrawal or movement of Palestinian people from Gaza is one thing.

There have been suggestions of a forced movement of Palestinians from Gaza, perhaps across the Egyptian border that has certainly but been suggested by far right.

Members of the Israeli government that would completely negate any potential for a viable Palestinian state, be that under a two-state solution or whatever solution you want to put forward.

And that is exactly why many Palestinians, but also other regional leaders and and other Arabs are really against the idea of a forced movement.

And of course, that that would, you know, violate a number of rights amongst the Palestinians as well.

But that is the primary idea there, that they are so deeply connected to that land that they wouldn't leave, even if there are continued airstrikes.

And we were hearing that from Palestinians in Jerusalem who are receiving medical treatment now.

We were also hearing that from Palestinians, from Gaza who were detained in, in Jerusalem after October 7th because their permits had run out.

They were Palestinian workers.

They were all saying, we want to go back, you know, the war's ongoing, but we want to be with our families.

We want to be in our homes, we want to be back in our towns.

And you know, it, it's, it's a strong message from the Palestinian people.

- Yeah.

You mentioned kind of putting questions to the Israeli military when we're doing these stories.

They've been a less than, you know, reliable narrator of certain key events that have gone on.

So how do you take that into consideration when we're trying to get their response to a strike that happened or something like that?

Yeah, - Yeah.

I mean, it's a daily process.

We have a huge team of producers and journalists who are frequently putting these questions to the Israeli military.

We have to provide coordinates of these exact, - Like - Geolocating.

Exactly.

So we have a huge team who geolocate these specific airstrikes, provide the coordinates, send them to the Israeli military for confirmation of whether or not an airstrike took place.

Sometimes they are able to provide information, sometimes they do not provide a response.

We're dealing with a military that is engaged in active war.

So whether it's the Israeli military or any military, we have to take that into consideration what that means.

What sort of narratives might be at play here.

You know, when we hear from the Israeli military telling us that they are letting aid in, but we're seeing video of soldiers obstructing aid from getting in.

We have to tell that story.

We have to be clear and transparent in the fact that while we are receiving these statements from the Israeli military, it may stand in contrast to what we're seeing on the - Ground to the evidence on the ground.

- Exactly.

And that's our job, right.

To highlight those contrasts.

- Well, on the same front, how should we think about Hamas then?

You know, they've been deemed a terrorist organization by the US and Europe, and obviously the October 7th attacks were completely heinous and Yeah.

And horrific so, but they are still kind of in control of Gaza and how things are kind of run there.

So how do you we think about Yeah, those kind of interactions.

- Look, Hamas has been in a position of leadership in Gaza since 2006.

So before the war began, well before the war began.

And so a lot of the government institutions that are responsible for the running of the Gaza Strip fall under Hamas' authority.

This is an authority which has worked for years now in conjunction with various UN agencies to ensure the daily running of what is happening in Kaza.

Right.

So it is considered a terrorist organization.

It has a military wing, an armed wing, which of course has continues to be engaged in fighting with the Israeli military, are responsible for the October 7th attacks and for multiple rocket launches into Israeli territory as well.

But that is, I think when we're talking about the running of the Gaza Strip necessarily, we almost have to treat them separately because since 2006, there has been no other governing body in Gaza.

Right.

So when we're trying to get information from the health ministry, for example, to frame that as, you know, a, a wing of a terrorist organization, I think is inaccurate.

And I know a lot of us were doing that sort of the early weeks of the war where we would specifically frame any death toll updates as, you know, updates from the Hamas run health industry.

And that caused a lot of issues, a lot of debate as well, about how we were dealing with this organization, how we were dealing with those updates.

When in reality the health ministry works very closely with various humanitarian organizations and UN organizations.

The UN itself has said repeatedly now that those figures for many years now have been largely reliable.

So yes, we're dealing with an organization that is considered by the us, the European Union, and many others as a terrorist organization.

But we're also dealing with a group that is the only governing body in Gaza.

A group that for many Palestinians is considered a resistance movement.

And also important to remember that there are many Palestinians in Gaza who do not support Hamas, who haven't had a chance to vote in democratic elections.

Right.

Who do not support the attacks of October 7th, who do not want to see this war being carried out.

And so it's, there's a lot of nuance here.

And so painting it as sort of one thing is, is very difficult.

For a long time, the Israel-Palestine conflict has been painted as a very black and white two sides conflict.

You often hear people say, oh, it's too complicated, don't wanna talk about it.

Right.

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what is actually happening.

And I think what we really need to focus on is the fact these are all human beings that we're talking about.

So we're talking about very serious issues here that have been at play long before October 7th, but of course predominantly now the focus is on the war.

But you can't take away that context.

And so yes, at first glance, it may be complicated, but it's our job to try and tell those stories.

Yeah.

And to try and present those stories in a way which includes the context in a way which, you know, brings forward the important nuances, history and layers that are needed to understand what is happening in Gaza.

Now, - Do you think that people are starting to pick up on those nuances?

Like is that stuff kind of making it through, or do you think the, the passion behind all this is still just too much to break through?

I - Think so.

I think people beginning to have more broader discussions about what is actually happening, not just, you know, with their friends and families, but you know, you see it in government statements, you see it in discussions being had a more, you know, from within government, within other institutions.

You know, the fact that we are seeing international members of the international community even beginning to discuss questions of whether a genocide is taking place in Gaza.

We're seeing, you know, legal cases being brought forward about what is happening in the occupied West Bank.

Questions around the expansion of settlements.

These are discussions that are being had by members of the international community in a very public way.

And that wasn't necessarily happening before October 7th.

But we're also seeing people who are, you know, sharing updates and news on social media who are sharing, you know, educational updates on social media.

And so there is a lot of learning that is going on.

I think a lot of people, perhaps for the first time are trying to educate themselves on what is actually at play in the occupied West Bank in particular and in Gaza.

But again, we're seeing that generational shift as well.

Things are very different now to how they were 10, 20, 30 years ago.

And we're seeing that in the student movements.

You know, we're hearing from a lot of students who are saying, as you mentioned, that they weren't necessarily active members of, you know, pro-Palestine society or whatever it may be on college campuses.

But that their response to the war and their feeling of not wanting to see this war play out wanting a ceasefire has led them to then try and learn more about what is happening there.

- Right.

So as this conflict kind of continues in whatever form it, it does over these next couple of weeks and months, as you reflect on the last seven months or so, what are you going to take with you as you continue to do the job?

- I think this last seven months of covering the war in Gaza has really shown me as a journalist how important it is to not just follow the, the narrative, the rhetoric that we have necessarily followed for years.

You know, it's our job to challenge what we're seeing.

We're hearing.

It's not just to go along with, you know, whatever statements we're getting from whatever government bodies, but to think critically, to push back when we need to and to accurately paint a picture of what is happening on the ground, whether or not we're able to get access.

And I think for a long time, in particular, the Israel-Palestine conflict, as we said, has been treated as too complicated as though you know, it, it's too hard to get into.

But I think what we've seen over the last few, particularly amongst many of my colleagues, is a real effort to try and push back and to try and say, look, there is a lot of nuance, a lot of layers, but it's our job to distill those layers.

And it's our job to tell the stories fairly as we can.

And that may be difficult, it may not please the entire audience, but we need to tell the truth.

That is the core element of our job.

- Yeah.

And I think a lot of the Palestinian journalists on the ground are doing a lot of that legwork that can get places like ours in a space to kind of do that and tell those real human stories.

- Absolutely.

And there is so much to be learned from the Palestinian journalists on the ground in Gaza so much, their bravery, their dedication, their resilience.

I mean, I have found nothing more inspiring than the work of the Palestinian journalists on the ground.

And we are so deeply reliant on their work to bear witness to what is happening, because we can't get access.

But you know, their work can't be taken for granted.

These are incredibly brave, diligent journalists and we are so very lucky to be able to work with them.

- Yeah.

Well, we'll leave the conversation there.

Not a Thank you so much.

Thank you.

And thank you all for coming.

Appreciate it.