From the WNIN Tristate Public Media Center in downtown Evansville, I'm David James and this is Two Main Street.

Well, did you know the United States has the highest total prison population in the world?

More than 2 million men and women behind bars.

And that's costing U.S. taxpayers more than $80 billion a year.

The Prison Scholar Fund says while the national crime rate and the number of prisoners have decreased in recent years, the percentage of new crimes committed by those released from prison is on the rise.

The so-called revolving door of recidivism means some 68% of all released prisoners are re-arrested within three years of their release.

And for a variety of factors, poor communities of color are often caught in this revolving door.

The guest speaker for the 2023 Randall Shepard Law series in Evansville is Indiana University professor Lahny Silva.

She has been at the forefront of reach the Southern District of Indiana's Reentry and Community Help program.

So, Professor Silva, welcome to Main Street.

Good to have you here.

Thank you.

It's good to be here today.

Now you're at the IU Robert McKinney School of Law, and you have a great resource there in the pool of talented law students.

So do you reach out to them?

I absolutely do.

I absolutely do Reach out to them.

They actually comprise the clinic.

I have about ten students per year.

It's a one year program, and we do a bunch of things in the clinic.

Well, and it's a great occasion for them, too.

Obviously, it is.

It allows them to have clinical and practical experience prior to them actually practicing law.

Do they get credit?

They do get credit so they can get two credits per semester or three, depending on what they would like their workload to be.

And then they get the experience, which is invaluable.

Now, reach is the reentry problem solving court in the U.S. District Court for Southern District of Indiana started in 2007, founded by the late Judge Larry McKinney.

Now, you were a staff attorney working for the Greater Hartford Legal Aid in Connecticut.

So how did you end up in Indiana, Professor Silva?

So I am I come from a family of limited means.

So when the Great Recession happened, going back home wasn't an option for me.

They weren't hiring lawyers.

My entire class basically was laid off from their jobs.

And so what would you do?

Well, can't afford the loans.

I went back to school.

Right.

And going back to school, I applied to the University of Wisconsin Hasty Fellowship program.

And in doing that, I had to create an agenda, a research agenda, and because of my personal experiences as a child and through adolescence and my interest in social justice, it just seemed that reentry would be a natural fit.

So I developed my research agenda around ex-offender reentry.

And so, you heard about this program in Indiana.

So now Seventh Circuit Federal Judge Doris Prior was an AUSA and assistant United States Attorny at the time.

And she invited me to pilot a project with this reentry federal problem solving court.

And I said, yes, I will do it.

I did grapple with that for a bit, but I said yes.

And the next step was to meet the late honorable Judge McKinney.

And he I had to get his blessing.

And this is a great story.

I went to get his blessing, and he asked me, what makes you so qualified to work with this population?

And I said, Well, do you want the politically correct answer or the real answer?

And he kind of scoffed at me.

And he said, the real answer.

And I said, Well, because I come from a family of criminals.

And he said, You're in.

And that's how this project started.

Really?

Yeah.

I mean, it was a pilot.

It started with two law students.

And the design was to pair a lawsuit laden with a newly released federal probationer.

So somebody who's already served a time in prison, their time in prison, and then have they have a term of supervised release, which is probation on the back end.

And the folks that come into the program, it's a voluntary type of program.

And we call folks participants.

They are at a moderate to high risk of recidivism.

That revolving door you were just talking about, Mr. James.

And so because we are involving law students, too, we take only kind of specific categories of crime, drugs.

922 G's, which are felon in possession of a firearm, and um robbery.

Right.

Few robbers but a couple of bank robbers.

And that's pretty much what we're taking in the program.

And so from there, the law students are supposed to fix all of their problems.

Well, I can't let this get by.

You said you come from a family of criminals.

I do.

Can you talk about that?

Yes, I definitely go for it.

So, first of all, I'm biracial.

My mom is Sicilian.

My dad is black.

And I was already facing adversity as a child.

Yes.

I was biracial before Obama was the president.

I think that was kind of an issue for me.

But my father is a drug offender and he had he was a dope thing.

And my mom, you know, she worked really hard.

But, you know, she had issues, too, right, in the sense of she was supporting us.

But my cousins on my mother's side of the family were also involved in the drug trade.

My cousins on my father's side of the family involved in the drug trade.

And what I'll tell you is, is that drug trafficking almost inevitably leads to drug addiction.

And so I have experience with this.

Where was this at Massachusetts.

Okay.

So you've obviously growing up, you were exposed to all of this.

And did your father end up going to prison?

No, he did not.

I mean, he got clean, I think, just in the nick of time.

Really?

Yes, He did.

I mean, he got clean, Let me say.

I was 12, so 1992.

He did dabble in selling drugs, right?

He tried to hustle drugs, but he was his best client.

His best customer.

He would tell you.

Well, you mentioned that.

You said you you try to prevent these people from going back to the hustle.

Going back to that that lifestyle.

Now, you talked about Judge McKinney, kind of your your mentor.

He dies suddenly and then you write that he gave you the honor and the privilege to begin your life's purpose in his court.

This your life purpose?

Absolutely.

I mean, it's great because it allows me to use my personal experience in my passion.

And also my brain for the same purpose.

And so he allowed me to create this program and really judge prior to.

Right.

She brought me into the fold and supported me.

I have to say that the whole Southern district of Indiana at this point has really allowed me to live out my purpose.

And my purpose is to really prevent people from going back to prison.

Now, we talked about the men and women who are released from prison and in the REACH program.

Now, you talk something about their crimes.

Are are they nonviolent?

Yes.

The crime, well, robbery could be considered violent, right?

The use of force or threat of force.

So, yeah, there is violence that can be inherent in the elements of it, but no sex offenders?

No.

No sex offenders?

No.

No child porn.

So no.

Okay.

So what is the vetting process?

So the vetting process is left to the United States Probation Department.

Okay.

And to qualify for the program, you know, he's the probation officer involved who is stellar.

He's a reentry specialist.

He picks people that on this RPI index, they call it.

He scores them.

And also make sure that the folks that are getting picked are not going to be any kind of threat of harm to the law students as well.

Sure.

So we have to balance the risk that is needed to participate with that.

And he does a great job of that.

And then he also makes sure that folks are ready to change because it's an it's a resource intensive program.

So we don't want to be wasting resources if folks are not ready to change.

Sure.

Sure.

Now, those released from prison, they often have no home to go to.

They have little or no family support, no food, really, no driver's license, employment or medical care.

So not a good formula for success.

Right.

So you guys step in and try to mitigate these problems.

We do mitigate the problems.

That's what we do.

That's our specialty.

So we try to triage the most immediate needs.

And you.

I love that you started with housing because that's the number one issue facing reentrance today is finding safe and affordable housing that will take somebody with a conviction.

Sure.

Into that.

So what we try to do initially is get money in their pocket legitimately.

Right.

So employment that's drafting a resume, showing folks how to upload documents online, it's not like it used to be where you could just walk down the street and fill out a paper application.

Everything's done online.

That's a barrier in and of itself.

Housing, you know, we have to be really creative with housing can be very is is very tricky and it can be tricky for folks that are trying to return home to a parent or a wife or a husband that lives in public housing or is receiving a housing choice voucher Section eight voucher, because that could put the household at risk, because there's a prohibition on letting folks be part of the household if they've been engaged in criminal activity.

And surely a criminal conviction is indicative of engaging in criminal activity.

And so you can try to waive and, you know, waive that requirement in some public housing authorities do that, but most do not.

So, you know, there's a an issue with getting folks into public housing.

Private landlords, over two thirds will not rent to somebody.

Really?

Yes.

And like you said, those enrolled in the REACH program do so voluntarily and they undergo what's described as intensive supervision.

So does that mean you check on them every day?

No.

So that means that they have to report to court and tell the judge about their month.

So they they are receiving the same type of supervision that most other offenders would receive.

Right.

So they have a probation officer who conducts urinalysis, make sure checks up unemployment, verifies employment just like everybody else.

But there's an extra layer.

And that extra layer is the accountability piece to the jurist, to the judge in charge.

And we have a we have great judges in the Southern district.

So federal Magistrate Judge Tim Baker, he takes one court in, Chief Judge Tanya Walton Pratt.

She's presides over the second reach court.

And then we have Judge Garcia, who hops in when somebody is absent and folks have to come and tell the judge how their month was.

And if there's an issue of noncompliance, they have to, you know, be honest about that.

And if, you know, that's what we that's what we really value is the honesty.

And hopefully it's not so bad that we can just take a graduated sanction approach to the violation.

And you also talk about the importance of bulldozing barriers.

And we talked about some of those barriers just daily life, driver's licenses, huge barrier, really huge barrier.

So, you know, Indiana is a very big state.

And I come from Massachusetts, which is a very little state.

And we have a commuter rail system and we have public transportation that's, you know, very well organized and well established in order to get adequate employment.

Most of the people that come out of prison, they're unskilled.

They will have to go outside of the city limits.

And that requires transportation.

And even in the city, because the public transportation system hasn't been developed to the point where it's reliable, come to Indianapolis.

Indianapolis.

They will need to drive and to get up from underneath All of the debt of a driver's license.

Suspension is quite overwhelming.

Now, what's the reach success rate?

So between on any given kind of year, it ranges from 23% recidivism to 36%.

So we've been involved in the program since 2015.

And since 2015, the recidivism rate has dropped.

And I think that's a combination of not only the law school getting involved, but the addition of the reentry specialist probation officer who has special sensitivities and training regarding reintegration.

You want to share any success stories?

I'm sure I can see I can share a success story for it.

One of my.

So, Thomas Ridley.

Thomas Ridley.

And he's from Indianapolis.

He was one of the ghetto boys, which was a street gang that notoriously sold crack.

And he was sentenced by the late Judge McKinney to two life sentences in prison.

But between George W Bush, President Barack Obama, and, you know, different types of legislation that were passed in Congress, he was able to get modifications that Judge McKinney allowed modifications.

His only crime was the drug trafficking.

I think he only had a dismissal for a DUI years before to life sentences that seem excessive.

Very, very excessive, very punitive for drugs.

There was no indication that he had ever engaged in violence.

I mean, once you and if you met him, you would you would see that he's just not a violent guy.

Well, he gets out of prison.

And did they make an example of him?

You think?

Possibly.

I mean, but the federal sentencing guidelines did not provide discretion.

He was sentenced in the nineties.

Okay.

Right.

The federal sentencing prison set New life.

Prison.

Here's this guy.

Drug pen.

Yes.

Okay.

And so federal sentencing guidelines became advisory with the Booker decision, which wasn't until the early 2000.

So Judge McKinney was still operating under the federal sentencing guidelines, which required these kinds of sentences.

So when Thomas Ridley got out, he started working.

He looked for resources to help him reenter.

He found some organizations that could provide some services, but not really what he really needed.

And he was determined to start his own reentry organization.

So the law school was involved in the REACH clinic at this point in time.

And this is what he wanted.

He lived with his mother.

He wanted to work at the Department of Public Works, which he ended up working at DPW.

He's now an executive member of the union.

He's on the executive team of the union.

And we helped him start a reentry not for profit court.

Thomas Ridley's one, like me, and it has developed from a peer mentoring program into a four program organization.

I think that's a success story, and I understand that Thomas really went to the private funeral service for Judge McKinney, right when McKinney died suddenly.

That's right.

And he stays in touch with Judge McKinney's widow.

She is a board member of his.

Okay.

And so they are very close.

And he helps her get things, you know, move things, pick things up and filter through the house if if she needs it.

Excuse me.

So, yeah, they ended up being friends.

I know.

Magistrate Tim Baker also recalls the story of Thomas.

Really?

And he says there's a secret sauce for success.

And that secret sauce is making connections.

That's right.

That's right.

Believing in somebody is very powerful and instilling hope in people that they can actually make it is also very powerful.

And so that accountability piece that is the magic of reach is really in the belief that the judges have, that the participants can make it, that you have a federal prosecutor that's rooting for you.

You have a probation officer that, you know, isn't trying to get you in trouble, but is just trying to make sure you're doing the right thing.

And then you have a defense attorney that's there to protect you.

And then you have a team of law students that are your resource.

And so in that kind of environment, everything there is meant for you to succeed.

And that matters.

And I think that's reflected in the drop in the recidivism rate.

Are these former offenders remorseful?

So their deeds?

So I think that's a huge driving force in wanting to be successful.

There is definitely a desire for redemption, and that desire is manifested in this idea of giving back, speaking to younger people, younger folks about not getting involved in crime, going to violent neighborhoods and actually trying to work with some of the youth that are involved, affiliated or associated with violence and gangs.

And so this is something that is a normal thing that you see in folks.

And we've been talking about the reentry program in Marion County for released prisoners called REACH.

It's support to help prevent a return to criminal life, the so-called hustle.

Again, what's the hustle?

Just trying to make a buck.

Yeah, So trying to make a buck.

But and, you know, folks getting out of prison, it's always I you know, I need a hustle.

I need a hustle.

And so when you talk about the hustle, what do we hustle it?

And I like to speak their language and we hustle hope, right?

That's what our hustle is.

We're hustle and hope.

And so when we talk about the whole hustlers, that's what we're talking about.

We're talking about you may want to make a buck and that's that works.

That's cool.

But our hustle is hope, and that's what we bring now to a problem solving corp.

But you call it a clinic?

Yeah, it's a problem solving court.

In the clinic is a supplement to the problem solving court.

It's just a component.

You know, that original REACH team formed in 2007, didn't have a law school and so and they were, they were doing the accountability piece.

Intensive supervision.

The clinic, the reentry clinic is a component of that program.

It is not the program.

Okay.

And so the clinic is just a piece of it.

And that's the law students.

That's the law students and myself.

That's right.

Okay.

All right.

Now, the law students at IU also active in a program called Scrap the Second Chance Reentry Assistance Program.

What's that all about?

So that is really to provide more services on a macro level in Indianapolis.

So and it also allows student participation.

So I can only take so many students in the clinic because it's you know, it's the supervision of that is very heavy.

It's a heavy lift.

But there are students who want to be involved.

Maybe they don't want to do a clinic, but they still want to help.

And we wanted to provide that opportunity to people.

So students created this organization.

Scrap Second Chance Reentry Assistance Program.

It allows one, LS, two LS and three LS all to participate.

And what we do is we go and the clinic now helps and supplements this too, because I think it's just a good practice for my students.

We go out into the community and we help people get their driver's license back, which is a tangled web dealing with the Board of Motor Vehicles.

Yes, there's all kinds of regulations there.

And red tape and bureaucracy, I can imagine.

Are you getting funding at all for this?

So lately what we've been doing is we've been partnering with organizations and it's great because Thomas Ridley's one, like me, the law school, the Marin County prosecutor's office, one like me.

What's that?

That's Thomas Ridley's reentry organization.

Is separate from yours.

Yes, separate from mine.

From reach.

That's right.

Separate from mine.

So he has a not for profit.

He wanted the redemption we talked about.

He wants to help people getting out of prison.

So his organization, the reentry clinic, the prosecutor's office, the neighborhood Christian Legal Clinic, we all partnered together and applied for a grant.

Okay.

And we got a grant.

And so that grant has been helping us kind of remove some barriers.

And it also allow Thomas Ridley's one like me to create a special group of folks that are dedicated to just this driver's license issue, because I'm not sure if you know, but there are tens of thousands of people in Indianapolis alone that don't have a driver's license.

It's suspended.

And so in most of the folks are living in hotspot zones, hotspots, high crime under unemployment in primarily people of color, communities of color, high poverty.

And so folks, you know, really need to get their license to be able to actually be can be socioeconomically mobile.

Right.

And also move out of segregated neighborhoods.

Who are the hope hustlers?

That's Thomas Ridley's group.

Yes, that's Tom.

That's what we named them, because we we all wear T-shirts that say whole possibly scrap does the clinic kids do and Thomas Ridley's team, because we're all working together.

And so there's no need to differentiate because every single group is hustling.

Hope Okay, now you write that the reentry is a process that begins in prison.

It does.

It begins with at the actual participant, right.

Thinking about how they're going to change.

And many folks come out of prison.

They already have a plan for what they're going to do.

But when they get out, the system is not equipped to actually help them achieve these goals.

It's just not.

Judge McKinney once said that, you know, we sentence people, but we don't.

Once they're out, we abandon them.

And our hope is to create a system that helps another another thing that happens in prison, or at least ought to happen, is folks getting their ID.

And so idiocy, Indiana Indiana Department of Corrections has been doing better.

The Federal Bureau of Prisons, they've been doing better.

But there's really needs to be improvement.

Folks are getting out of prison with just a prison ID.

And what can you do with a prison I.D.?

That seems like a negative thing, right?

Right.

Well, here's an ID, right.

Okay.

So a great thing about the probation officer that works in the REACH Corps is that he will go to the Social Security office with people and make sure that they get their Social Security card.

And once we have a Social Security card and a birth certificate and, you know, people can get ID and then they can get employment, then they can work on their license, I mean, you can't do anything without that ID government issued ID, so that should happen in prison.

Well, we talk about all the factors involved, health issues as well, Right.

I mean, if they have a health problem, where do they go?

Right.

So that's that's also an issue that needs to be worked out.

So when folks are released, at least federally and I'm not really sure about the state at my I usually work closely with federal offenders when they're released.

If they're released to a halfway house, the Federal Bureau of Prisons still subsidizes their health needs.

And so they take care of those costs.

But once they're released from BOP custody, then they don't have anything.

Right.

And so, you know, they're either going to have to work a job that doesn't pay a lot because they won't qualify for hip two or they're going to have to go to, you know, health care facilities that operate on a sliding scale.

And the wait time to get into those can often be overwhelming.

And so, again, the reentry specialist does a really good job of trying to get folks the care they need.

And he's very successful at that.

He actually secured somebody to do counseling for our group.

So and we see more and more men requesting the counseling in the reach hearing.

So it's making a difference.

Now we're talking about Marion County, Indianapolis.

That's basically your your your your bailiwick.

Now, are other cities reaching out to curb recidivism, Any other similar programs that you know of?

So I know that there are other federal problem solving courts that do use law schools.

And so and they're seeing really great success.

The Southern District of New York had a we had a conversation and they have actually Judge Berman just sent me his study of his program.

So, yeah, I mean, people are reaching out.

I, I know that people are reaching out to Ryan Mairs.

He's the prosecutor out there about this driver's license stuff.

I mean, he has a great team that we work with, doing the driver's license, reinstatement, and I think it's starting to catch on.

The great thing about reentry is that it is bipartisan.

So it doesn't matter where you are in the country.

Everybody has an interest in public safety, so everybody can get behind that.

And if folks are working and folks are living in safe housing, it's going to actually increase public safety for everybody in communities in the state.

People will be too busy.

Right.

Well, I was just think it's going to ask you about any kind of a political issues involved in this.

Are lawmakers on board the community on board?

What's what's been the feedback?

So the feedback is great.

I mean, I lawmakers I mean, President George W Bush started this movement nationally with his second chance.

America's the land of second chances.

And it's been carried forward through every administration since.

And so it's very bipartisan support from the city of Indianapolis, huge support, I mean, from the Office of Public Health and Safety, from the mayor's office.

The law school and the university have been hugely supportive of this.

The commute that he loves it.

I mean, we don't even advertise our driver's license, reinstatement programs, and hundreds of people show up for help to the point we had to stop doing walk in service and only take appointments.

You're right.

So I am.

PD loves it.

They come.

It's an opportunity for them to get close to the community, which fosters community trust.

So everybody really seems to be behind it.

And that's really important because it doesn't matter.

The administration, well, you sell it as a public safety issue and it's doing good for everybody that way.

It's a win win is, as you like to call it, I'm sure.

Now, let's talk about a couple of other things since I've got you here.

You have me here.

You're a law professor well-versed in all kinds of legal issues.

I put you on the spot.

The Illinois the Illinois Pretrial Fairness Act has abolished cash bail as a condition of pretrial release.

Big issue.

What's your reaction to that?

So, you know, I would have to read the statute, and I'm embarrassed to say I haven't read it.

I've been very busy doing reentry stuff.

But you have to think about what the point of bail is.

The point of bail is to make sure that the defendant comes back to answer for the charges for which he or she is being accused.

And that's it.

And that was in Stack versus Boyle, the United States Supreme Court case early, early on.

And so the other thing about bail is that not being able to afford bail really impacts poor people.

So you have a lot of people sitting in jail because they can't afford bail.

And is that what we want for a society?

Do we want people sitting in prison or sitting in jail, I should say, waiting to answer for these charges?

When you sit in prison, you can't prepare for your defense.

You can't continue to work and support your family.

Who bears those costs?

We do.

The taxpayer.

We're paying for the person in jail to live.

We're could be paying for their family and their children through benefits.

Right.

And so and also structurally, I mean, neighborhoods, one of the biggest problems of the war on drugs was the removal of the black man from the family.

Right.

And so you have communities that don't have a social order.

And so is that what we want?

And I think that Illinois is trying to get ahead of that.

Now, another hot topic, artificial intelligence, computer programs that do research and offer opinions on cases.

And sometimes they can predict maybe how a judge will rule on a certain topic.

What do you think about that?

Well, I think it's scary.

I think it's very exciting, yet very scary, particularly for the legal profession.

There's this worry that I will replace lawyers.

Luckily for me, I am in the criminal justice arena and so there will always be crime to the degree.

Right.

But is it is it something that we really want?

You know, how far can this technology go?

Can it take a bar exam?

It's going to be subject to abuse.

Students are already cheating using AI.

And is that what don't we want people to be thinking in, using their minds, engaging in intellectual discourse and inquiry?

I think the answer is yes.

And AI is something that could take us off track and but at the same time, it does provide a whole bunch of information and knowledge at our fingertips.

It goes beyond what Google goes beyond, right?

And so it's a balance.

It's scary, but it's exciting and it's also a balance figuring out if it's going to be a good thing and can you control it.

I mean, that's the thing.

I mean, once it's out there, I don't know if they can curb it.

I mean, it's going to be a challenge definitely for the courts and the legal community.

Now, let's learn more about you.

And you grew up, you said in or do you grow up?

I grew up in Massachusetts, okay.

And I'm a beach kid.

Okay.

I love the beach.

I went to Carver High School and right outside of Boston.

And I, I worked a lot.

I've always worked.

I have a very strong mother who really held education up as the single most important thing to make sure that I could take care of myself and be independent.

And I can't I don't have any complaints.

I mean, any siblings.

I have a little sister and a older brother.

My little sister lives with my dad right now and has and has a son who's my nephew's name's Avery.

My brother has three kids and is married and lives in Virginia.

Now.

I knew working, I think was it Massachusetts, our Wisconsin or something, the ban, the box initiative.

What was that all about?

Okay, so that was in Connecticut.

Okay.

I was a legal aid attorney.

Okay.

They had banned the box was to get the box checked the box for felony off of an application, an employment application.

Okay.

And the idea was that if you take that question off and not ask it until somebody has made it through an initial interview, that that would provide greater opportunity.

Well, that's controversial.

It is.

Did you get some some negative feedback on that one?

Yes, we did.

And I have to tell you, we were wrong.

It didn't work that way.

What ended up happening is that taking the box off led to employers making judgment calls based on somebody's name.

Right.

So it actually worked in the reverse and then punished people of color primarily if they had a ethnic name.

right.

So it actually worked in the reverse.

And so hands off.

Right.

So, you know, I I just have to tell you, that's what it does.

So the box with the trash box went in the trash and I stop talking about it.

Okay, we go now.

Now, what's next for Reach?

Just get that out of the way.

So I'm hoping that we can get a permanent social worker or at least a seat for a lot.

A social work student.

Whether it's a BMW or an MSW.

I receive the Chancellor Banse Community Fund Award, and we were able to experiment with that.

And we had great outcomes, particularly in the housing context and with social work.

That's kind of piece one piece too.

I really think that a law school should adopt the reach design.

You know, the folks that we work with, the participants, they don't have any power really, and they don't have a lot of advocates.

I mean, they're not a preference classification, legal services, and they're not considered defendants any more, if you will.

So they're not entitled to a public defender.

So many of the things that they need advocacy for, particularly in the civil legal context, they don't have.

And so we are their advocates.

And I think that this design, if it were adopted by different law schools, it would provide least some advocacy to some people.

I mean, with the outreach program that we were talking about, the whole puzzlers and scrap in the Marin County prosecutor's office, we're seeing over 1500 people a year now helping folks get their driver's license reinstated.

So imagine if every law school across the country did that and make an impact that can impact.

Well, I know you have the passion for this program is that your life's work now?

It it's.

Welcome back to Main Street.

I'm David James.

And joining me now is the namesake of the Shepherd lecture series, the former chief justice of the Indiana Supreme Court and Evansville native Randall Shepherd.

Randy, good to have you back.

We just talked to Professor Sylva and your impressions of the REACH program.

It's it's just phenomenal.

David, the the work that they have done and the the care and thoughtfulness with which it is done is really a game changer for the American system of justice and for the and for the country, for people who have been involved in in one way or another in the criminal justice system or people who've been disadvantaged by it.

So this is something that all of us ever have a legitimate interest in, in having it work.

State courts and federal courts have asked these kinds of questions for decades.

And in Evansville, the earliest one that I can remember was work release.

One of the great things that when people come out of prison, one of the real problems they have is finding a job and maybe they need to be able to work their way into having a job and also living in a secure place so that they don't get up in the middle of the night and do something like what they did before.

So we've had that here in Evansville for at least 30 years.

You live in a place that's locked down overnight, the halfway house, halfway houses.

You go to work in the beginning and come back later after work and and that helps people work their way out.

Originally called work release also had a program for DUI defendants where you could go to a class for a certain number of weeks and learn about what the dangers are and how to avoid them.

And if you if you do that, the prosecutor, if you do that successfully, at least one moment, the prosecutors might well dismiss your your charge.

So Evansville has a nice history of putting together ideas and real actual programs on how to deal recidivism and people who can sometimes rack up five, ten, 15 criminal violations and this REACH program is a very is a new and very sophisticated version of trying to get people back out of prison or back out of jail and into a setting where they aren't as much at risk for recommitting and and doing something that's harmful to their fellow citizens.

Well, we definitely can see the passion.

I mean, Professor Silver, she is definitely dedicated to making this work.

Now, another big story.

Cashless bail in Illinois is that been been debated in Indiana before?

Every now and then, Indiana has made quite a quite a lot of progress on bail.

We still have bail, thank goodness.

When when I was a trial judge, the amount of bail was not completely, but pretty much set on how serious the crime was.

And the theory was that the more serious the crime was, the more likely it, as you might we turn you loose between now and trial.

You might just skip town.

Although one Saturday morning I can remember the prosecutor coming in and saying the these people have promised if we don't charge them today, they will leave town and go back to a forgotten war with the city.

Was said.

We've decided that's worth it.

Worth a shot.

So it can work in both directions.

But it's it is a question about one of the typical questions is can you.

The original theory was we want to be sure you come back for trial, but you also and I think our judges do and and have it's been sanctioned.

Worry about what what you might do if we let you out the door that's going to harm somebody else or recommit.

There's a little legal friction there about whether whether because it's originally originally a question of will you come back and face the music?

Well, I think it's at the discretion of the judge in Illinois.

I mean, I think they can go ahead and let him out without bail.

But if they think something's going to happen, they said, no, you know, we're not going to let him out.

Yeah, well, you can do that in Indiana if you've got somebody committed a particularly if they're relatively modest crimes and the judge is convinced that you're you're probably a safety good risk and that you'll probably show up and a judge can do that.

And we over time, the Indiana court system has actually created a new and statistically valid bail measuring system.

We we hired some criminal justice professors or consultants from Ohio, which had done a lot of really good work on this.

And so now there's something a little more sophisticated than the thing that we used to use 25 years ago.

Artificial intelligence.

It's computers doing legal research and coming up with opinions.

So what do you think about that, Judge?

Not much.

Are you concerned some some younger person than me is going to have to prove that that that that actually works?

I'll believe it when I see it.

I think, you know, there's so much in the in the not just in the criminal justice system.

It's in in business, in business world, in schools, in broadcasting, you know, that you got to show that you sort of thought these things through and experience them a little bit.

And I I'm not looking forward to something more more electronic.

Well, I think I've read that every database for this research has a point of view.

You don't know where this research is coming from.

And I know it's supposed to be cost effective saving time and money.

And a Professor Silver said some attorneys think they're going to lose their jobs over this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we'll see.

Yeah, okay.

I'm not I'm not stayed awake at night worrying about that.

Okay.

My Guest is former chief justice of the Indiana Supreme Court, Randall Sheppard, recently recognized by Indiana landmarks for five decades of preservation leadership.

So congratulations on that award.

What are your first projects?

Getting the City of Evansville community on board to take title of the old Post Office and Customs House?

Absolutely.

What a wonderful experience that was.

You know, the the the first big preservation rescue in our city was the old courthouse, the old Vanderburgh County Courthouse.

And the people who engineered that both in government and as volunteers are about a generational older than than I am.

But while I was in city Hall working for Mayor Lloyd, the it became clear the federal government was going to build a new set of offices up by the Post, now post office and federal federal courthouse.

And that they were going to they were they were going to sell it or turn or turn that piece of ground over to somebody who'd be free to do whatever they wanted to with it and and or they would donate it to the city government.

And I did work on persuading my my comrades that Mayor Lloyd was in favor of it.

And it took us a little while to to really work on a plan to this is all the way back.

I think during that, when Jimmy Carter was in the White House, it was it was quite a long time ago.

The the and the and of course, the post office and all the federal offices moved up town.

The great irony is I haven't been inside for a while, but the great irony is now one of the biggest tenants is the United States government.

So good for them.

We know they'll pay the rent back.

Yeah, but now architect William Potter.

Yes.

Of the old post office and Customs house.

He also designed several buildings that you're alma mater, Princeton University.

He was for a couple of decades, the architect at Princeton University.

He was also the supervising architect of the treasury.

He was the head person in the federal government who who worked on building new courthouses and post during the 1870s.

And I think there were only six actual courthouse custom house that he designed.

And I've looked around, there's one at least one other of those is in Nashville, Tennessee.

There was one in Covington, Kentucky, South of.

Of Cincinnati.

Yeah.

I think it's disappeared because there a tenants.

You know, it happens.

Some of them we lose.

But he was considered a very talented, prominent person.

And so, yeah, I can I can look at buildings on the Princes camp, Princeton campus and see the ah, post office look looking awfully familiar.

Now, what are some big Indiana preservation projects underway right now?

Well, there are a couple, right, Right here in Evansville.

One is where we're collaborating on what might be reuse of the old Central High School gym.

And I think at the moment, Indiana Landmarks actually owns the gym.

We were helping both the city of Evansville and a developer.

I think those are the major parties or maybe the school system did have to think that through.

It was to their advantage.

If Indiana landmarks, the statewide would would acquire ownership for a period of two years and we had certain guarantees that there would be some effort to keep it, keep it in shape so that it doesn't simply fall apart.

And so that's an example of something that could that, you know, I played dodgeball on on that gym floor decades ago about the time you and I were in high school.

And the coliseum is also getting getting some attention.

Yeah, that's right.

The county government and the veterans have had it having discussions about what to do.

The Evansville Civic Theater wants to move into the Coliseum.

I don't think I knew that.

Yeah, there used to be on Fulton Avenue, right at the old theater down there.

Yeah.

Now they're temporarily doing their productions at Bossi.

High School's not a reality until they get the renovations done at the Coliseum.

I had Kevin Roach on with the Civic Theater.

We're talking about that.

So he's very excited about putting new life in the old coliseum.

Well, the one thing I'll always miss is the organ.

yes.

And I had somebody there was some a veteran who was very interesting, who took me a tour backstage on the organ because it wasn't just organ.

It had drums.

It played the bow.

My God, I cymbals.

That would clash at just the right moment when when the when the fellow at the keyboard hit the right key.

It was really astounding.

And I think that the it was finally disassembled.

And in the last I knew, it was in storage at the University of Evansville, which had hoped at some point and I think they've done it now.

But you know, these things, as long as they're safe.

That's right.

Pieces are safe.

They're not deteriorating in good hands.

You can wait.

So any projects on your personal wish list for preservation?

Well, I'd hate to lose the Hallman Building, and that's that's very much under in danger.

And we we are working, trying to help.

It's on the most endangered list of Indiana landmarks statewide.

There's a ten most endangered and it's it's on the list, which means that our staff will always have on its mind, what else can we do to make this work?

And That frequently turns out just fine in, you know, in days gone by French Lick for heaven's sake or the or was eight in West vein was on that list.

So I it it's a it's a wonderful wonderful building there are still some tenants on the main floor but the rest of it, it's just an deco.

Yeah.

Look it's just it's just a fascinating building.

Just look at the features inside.

Well, that's right.

The main hallway where the elevators are is just stunning.

It is.

It is.

So now the Shepherd Academy at your alma mater, High School, Evansville.

Harrison, what's going on there?

Times are good.

You know, this the the teaching staff and the administrators, the principal of that school are very committed to the idea of of training people for leadership and public service and law.

I learned of it.

Yet another recent graduate of the academy who was at a very prominent law school one I learned from the inside.

And he they they this is the first time you don't have to go to Harrison High School in order to be part of this program.

Other high schools in the county.

And in fact, occasionally there'll be someone from Warwick or or Posey.

You have to get yourself there to Harrison High School to make it work.

But if you're in if you're in central or North, they'll provide transportation because you spend part of the day there talking about civics and government and and English.

And then you go back to your high school for Spanish or mathematics or biology, and they're pretty much full.

Still got room for a few people.

And but today's the first time I've been there a number of times.

It is the first time when there were more students in the group from high schools other than Harrison.

really?

Because of course, the easy thing, it's a convenient thing to go to Harrison all day long.

They're always been students from other schools, and this looks very promising.

The staff, the senior staff love the work.

They understand that committed to the value of teaching young people the ideas of leadership and civic commitment and hallelujah Shepherd Academy still going strong.

Well, Judge Randall Shepherd, again, congratulations on the Indiana Landmarks Award and thanks again for being my guest on Two Main Street.

Good to see again.

My great pleasure.

Thanks for having.