BUT NOW WE'RE GOING TO TURN TO A CONVERSATION WITH AMY GODINE, AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK, "THE BLACK WOODS," WHICH REVEALS THE UNKNOWN STORY OF THE BLACK PIONEERS IN THE ADIRONDACKS.

THE STORY FOCUSES ON GARRETT SMITH, AN UPSTATE ABOLITIONIST IN THE 1800S AND HERE IS AMY GODINE'S INTERVIEW WITH MY COLLEAGUE, DAN CLARK.

AMY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

I APPRECIATE IT.

I AM SO GLAD TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU.

OF COURSE, ANYTIME.

SO THIS IS JUST SUCH AN INTERESTING BOOK, AND I THINK IT'S AN INTERESTING AREA THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ABOUT AND HAVE NEVER LOOKED INTO.

UH-HUH.

AND YOU HAVE 500 PASSION, INCLUDING APPENDIXES OF JUST RESEARCHES AND THIS STORY THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULDN'T KNOW ABOUT.

AT THE SAME TIME THIS IS A TIME IN NEW YORK HISTORY THAT IS KIND OF CONFLICTED A LITTLE BIT, WHERE YOU HAVE THIS MOVEMENT OF BLACK PEOPLE BEING DONATED THIS LAND TO GO INTO THE ADIRONDACKS BUT YOU ALSO HAVE PRO-SLAVERY INTERESTS IN NEW YORK.

THIS WAS THE 1840S, '50S, AROUND THAT TIME.

DID YOU FEEL THAT TENSION WHILE YOU WERE WRITING IT AS THESE OPPOSING FORCES?

WELL, THE OPPOSING FORCES ARE REALLY WHAT GAVE RISE TO THE IDEA FOR GARRETT SMITH'S GIVEAWAY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

HE COULD SEE THAT AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION IN NEW YORK IN 1846, PRO-SLAVERY INTERESTS WOULD DOMINATE AND CALL THE SHOTS AND ONCE AGAIN, THERE WOULD BE A 25-YEAR-OLD VOTER RESTRICTION IMPOSED ON BLACK MEN ALONE BECAUSE OF BUSINESS INTERESTS, IN GOOD PART, THAT WANTED TO FAVOR PRO-SLAVERY CONCERNS IN THE SOUTH.

IT'S SUCH AN INTERESTING PART OF THE STORY.

BECAUSE WHEN I WAS READING THE PREFACE OF THE BOOK, THAT DIDN'T POP OUT IMMEDIATELY, BUT WHEN IT DID COME THERE IN THE BOOK, I THOUGHT THAT WAS SO INTERESTING.

AND THAT'S JUST A SMALL PART OF THIS VERY LARGER STORY THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN.

I WANT YOU TO DESCRIBE IN YOUR OWN WORDS WHAT YOU SEE WHAT THIS BOOK IS ABOUT.

IT'S ABOUT GARRETT SMITH, HIMSELF, WHO GAVE THE LAND AWAY, 120,000 ACRES TO 3,000 BLACK NEW YORKERS IN 1846 AND '47.

HE CALLED IT A SCHEME OF JUSTICE AND BENEVOLENCE AND THAT WAS APTLY NAMED.

HIS IDEA WAS TO EVEN THE PLAYING FIELD.

HMM.

AND FAVOR VERY POOR BLACK MEN, MOSTLY FROM METROPOLITAN NEW YORK, WITH GIFTS OF LAND IN THE ADIRONDACKS, WHICH IF THEY WORKED THEM AND BROUGHT THEM UP TO VALUE, COULD MEET THE PROPERTY RESTRICTION REQUIREMENT IN ORDER TO VOTE.

IF THEY COULDN'T VOTE, THEY COULDN'T EXPRESS ANTI-SLAVERY SENTIMENTS.

THEY COULDN'T EXPECT REPRESENTATION OF THEIR CONCERNS.

POLITICALLY, THEY WERE INVISIBLE.

THEY WERE MOOT.

THIS WAS A WAY TO GAIN BLACK NEW YORK A VOICE.

WHICH IS SUCH LIKE A-- WHICH HEARD ABOUT THIS BOOK FIRST, I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST ABOUT THIS SETTLEMENT MOVEMENT IN THE ADIRONDACKS TO SEE THIS POLITICAL INSPIRATION BEHIND IT WAS SO INTERESTING TO ME, THERE WERE SO MANY DIFFERENT LAYERS AS TO WHAT'S HAPPENING AROUND THAT TIME.

THAT'S THE PART OF THE STORY THAT I DIDN'T SEE COMING.

WHEN I STARTED TO FIRST RESEARCH IT, I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST A SETTLEMENT STORY AND A VERY SMALL STORY AT THAT.

WHEN I DUG INTO WHAT INSPIRED SMITH AND ALL OF THE BLACK REFORMERS WHO CAME ON BOARD TO HELP HIM WITH THIS EFFORT, IT WAS A POLITICAL STORY AND IT WAS A STORY OF BLACK ENFRANCHISEMENT AND BLACK EMPOWERMENT AND BLACK PROPERTY OWNERSHIP.

I LOVE THOSE THINGS.

IRONY OF YOU AND I, TWO WHITE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THIS VERY DEEP BLACK HISTORY IN THE ADIRONDACKS IS NOT LOST ON ME.

UH-HUH.

HOW DID YOU BALANCE THAT WHILE YOU WERE WRITING THE BOOK ABOUT THIS BLACK HISTORY?

HOW DID YOU APPROACH THAT?

I ASSURED MYSELF THAT HISTORY CHANGES EVERY MINUTE AND EVEN BEFORE MY BOOK WENT TO THE PRESS I WAS LEARNING THINGS I WISHED I HAD INCLUDED WHATEVER I WRITE WILL BE SUPERSEDED VERY QUICKLY BY OTHER VOICES BRINGING THEIR OWN SINGULAR PERSPECTIVES TO THIS, AND THAT'S GOING TO INCLUDE MANY MORE BLACK VOICES THAT HAVE TAKEN THIS UP BEFORE, AND I'M EXCITED FOR THAT DISPLACEMENT.

[LAUGHTER] I HOPE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN A YEAR.

I HOPE I GET TEN OR MORE OUT OF MY BOOK, BUT I CAN SEE THIS COMING.

ABSOLUTELY.

I WELCOME IT.

YEAH, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, YOUR BOOK IS KIND OF ONE OF THE FIRST OF ITS KIND.

IT'S EXCITING FOR ME TO THINK THAT, YOU'RE RIGHT, THIS WILL INSPIRE MORE AND MORE RESEARCH INTO THIS.

YEAH.

WE CAN FIND OUT MORE AND MORE ABOUT THIS RICH HISTORY IN THE ADIRONDACKS THAT WE JUST DON'T KNOW ALL THAT MUCH ABOUT.

YOU WRITE IN THE PREFACE OF THE BOOK THAT THE RESEARCH WAS GOING TO BE QUITE A HURDLE TO OVERCOME.

THAT BEING SO LONG AGO, THERE ISN'T A LOT OF TANGIBLE EVIDENCE.

THERE'S NOTHING.

THERE'S ZIPPO.

WHERE DO YOU START?

YOU GO TO PAPER.

I MEAN, YOU LOOK ON THE GROUND.

THERE'S NO MATERIAL CULTURE LEFT ON THE GROUND.

THERE ARE NO CABINS.

THERE ARE NO BARNS.

THERE ARE HARDLY WALLS.

YOU CAN MAYBE SEE SOME SINK HOLES WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BELONGED TO GRANTEES BECAUSE MOST OF GRANTEES WHO CAME, AND NOT MANY DID, DIDN'T SETTLE ON THE LAND THEY WERE GIVEN.

LIKE ALL ADIRONDACKERS WHO GO UP THERE AND LOOK AT LAND, THEY MOVED TO BETTER LAND AS SOON AS THEY COULD FIND IT.

THEY DID THAT, TOO SO I WENT TO THE ARCHIVAL RECORDS AND TO SMITH'S CORRESPONDENCE WHICH WAS ENORMOUS AND TO TAX RECORDS, LEGAL DOCUMENTS, POLL LISTS, SCHOOL RECORDS, MILITARY PENSION FILES, A HUGE SOURCE OF INFORMATION, TAX ROLLS DOWN IN NEW YORK STATE ARCHIVES THAT DESCRIBED RELATIONS BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITE NEIGHBORS AND THAT WAS A WORLD OF INFORMATION.

YEAH.

ONE THING THAT I HAD A QUESTION ABOUT IS THE ELIGIBILITY THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE WE STARTED RECORDING.

UH-HUH.

AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT DURING THIS INTERVIEW, GARRETT SMITH DONATED THIS LAND TO 3,000 BLACK NEW YORKERS TO POSSIBLY COME SETTLE.

HOW WERE THEY CHOSEN?

BECAUSE THERE MUST HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 3,000 PEOPLE HERE.

WELL, YEAH.

YOU BET.

HE HAD A HUGE NETWORK IN THE BLACK REFORM ACTIVIST COMMUNITY IN NEW YORK.

MOSTLY IN CITIES AND AMONG WHITE ABOLITIONISTS, TOO.

AND HE PICKED 13 REFORMERS, WHITE AND BLACK.

MOST OF THEM BLACK, TO HELP HIM PICK ELIGIBLE GRANTEES.

HE STRICT RULES OF ELIGIBILITY WHICH THEY SHARED AND THEY WERE EVIDENT POVERTY, LANDLESSNESS, PHYSICAL FITNESS TO DO THIS.

THEY HAD TO BE BETWEEN 20 AND 60, GOOD CHARACTER, AND TEMPERANCE-ABIDING ETHIC.

SO THEY DID NOT DRINK.

NO DRINKING WAS ALLOWED.

THAT WAS A STICKING POINT.

OH.

FOR MANY POTENTIAL GRANTEES WHO DID RESENT BEING TOLD HOW TO LIVE AND DIDN'T WANT THIS STRUCTURE IMPOSING ON THEIR LIFE, WHETHER OR NOT THEY PARTOOK OF GIN OR WHATEVER.

YEAH.

YOU WRITE ABOUT HOW-- I DON'T KNOW ABOUT MOST, BUT A LOT OF THE GRANTEES DIDN'T ACTUALLY COME UP TO THE ADIRONDACKS AND SETTLE.

HARDLY ANY DID.

THEY HAD THE LAND DEED BUT NEVER WENT UP.

WHY WAS THAT?

WAS IT BECAUSE OF RULES AND ELIGIBILITY LIKE THAT?

THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

THERE WERE SEVERAL THEORIES ABOUT THAT.

I'LL GIVE YOU TWO AND THEN I'LL GIVE YOU MINE.

THE FIRST ONE THAT HISTORIANS PROMOTED-- AND BOTH THESE THEORIES ARE RACIALIZED.

ONE IS THAT THEY HAD TO BE FUGITIVES BECAUSE GARRETT SMITH HAD SUCH INTIMATE DEALINGS WITH FUGITIVE INTEREST HELPING PEOPLE SELF-EMANCIPATE, BUYING THE FREEDOM OF SLAVES HE MET IN WASHINGTON, BUILDING AN ANTI-SLAVERY POLITICAL PARTY, THE LIBERTY PARTY IN NEW YORK.

THAT'S HOW PEOPLE KNEW HIM, THE FRIEND OF THE SLAVE.

AND THOSE HISTORIANS SAID THAT THE GRANTEES WHO CAME UP BEING EX-SLAVES, BEING SOUTHERN, LACKED THE CAPACITY TO HANDLE THE COLD.

THEY WERE USED TO THE SUNNY SOUTH, AND THEY COULDN'T HACK IT UP HERE.

THEY WERE AFRICAN AND USED TO FULL FORCE SUN ALL THE TIME AND THEY COULDN'T MANAGE THE WEATHER.

THE HISTORIAN WHO DID A LITTLE MORE RESEARCH AND REALIZED THAT SMITH ACTUALLY WAS GIVEN LAND TO BLACK NEW YORKERS-- RIGHT.

BLAMED IT ON THEIR CITY HABITS OF SOFT LIVING AND JOBS LIKE BARBERING OR TAILORING OR WAITING TABLES, AND THAT THEY WERE UNFITTED FOR THE RIGORS OF THE ADIRONDACK WILDERNESS FOR THAT REASON.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE JOB SKILLS.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE STRENGTHS OR THE PLANNING FORSIGHT AND BOTH EXPLANATIONS UNDERSCORED BLACK INCAPACITY AND UNFITTEDNESS TO THE REGION, WHICH IS AN IMPORTANT POINT IN ITS OWN RIGHT THAT WILL LAST FOREVER IN ADIRONDACK HISTORY, THE IDEA OF WHO BELONGS AND WHO DOESN'T TO THE REGION.

MY REASONING IS A LITTLE MORE SIMPLE.

I LOOK AT WHAT AGRICULTURAL HISTORIANS HAVE TOLD US ABOUT WHAT IT COST TO MOVE TO THE FRONTIER IN THE MID-19TH CENTURY.

IT COST $1,500.

THESE GRANTEES DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT KIND OF MONEY.

RIGHT.

NEITHER DID WHITE LABORERS FOR THAT MATTER, AND THEY COULDN'T AFFORD THE MOVE.

IT WAS SIMPLY BEYOND THEIR MEANS.

IF THEY HAD THAT KIND OF MONEY, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ELIGIBLE FOR THE GIFT OF LAND IN THE FIRST PLACE.

SO SMITH GRIEVOUSLY MISUNDERSTOOD THE DEPTH OF BLACK POVERTY AT THIS TIME.

THAT WAS A FATAL MISTAKE.

SO I DON'T WANT TO SPOIL THE ENTIRE BACK FOR OUR AUDIENCE.

I THINK THERE IS A LOT IN THERE FOR THEM TO EXPLORE.

SURE.

A NAME THAT KEPT POPPING UP AGAIN AND AGAIN AS I EXPLORED YOUR BOOK IS FREDERICK DOUGLAS.

UH-HUH.

TELL ME HOW HE PLAYS INTO THIS.

I MEAN, THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT CHARACTER IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

IT IS.

HE WAS ALL IN IN THE BEGINNING.

WHEN HE MOVED TO NEW YORK FROM BOSTON, HE MOVES TO ROCHESTER AND GARRETT SMITH, WHO REALLY ADMIRES HIS ORATORY, HIS POLITICS AND HIS VISION, AND THEY WERE COMPLETELY ON BOARD WITH ABOLITIONISM AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, GIVES HIM A GRANT OF LAND TO WELCOME HIM TO NEW YORK STATE.

SMITH-- I MEAN, DOUGLAS IS DELIGHTED.

HE STARTED THIS NEW NEWSPAPER.

HE STARTS TO SUPPORT THIS VERY STRONGLY IN THE PAPER, URGING THE GRANTEES TO MOVE, SETTING THEM UP WITH A SURVEYOR WHO TURNS OUT NOT TO BE SO GREAT, BUT THAT'S ANOTHER STORY.

AND THEN GETTING ANXIOUS WHEN THE EXODUS DOESN'T OCCUR AND POINTING OUT THAT THEY NEED MONEY, THEY NEED HELP, BUT HE DOESN'T, IT SEEMS TO ME, APPROACH GARRETT SMITH DIRECTLY AND SAY, CAN YOU HELP THEM AT THIS POINT WITH MONEY GIFTS AS WELL AS LAND?

THEY CAN'T MAKE THAT NEXT HURDLE IF THEY AREN'T CAPITALIZED AT THE OUTSET.

A FEW YEARS IN, HE'S DISENVOWED BLACK FARMING COMPLETELY AND SAYS IN A LETTER, FOR WHATEVER REASON, BLACK CITY PEOPLE ARE JUST NOT INTERESTED IN FARMING, SO I DON'T SUPPORT A FULL-BORE FARMING EFFORT OF ANY KIND, SO HE BACKS AWAY, WHICH IS THE LAST THING THE GRANTEES ON THE FRONTIER WANT TO READ IN THEIR FAVORITE NEWSPAPER, THEIR BEST CHAMPION SORT OF CUTTING THEM OFF.

IT'S SUCH AN INTERESTING STORY AND I LOVE IT EVEN MORE BECAUSE IT'S PART OF OUR STATE'S HISTORY.

ME TOO.

I LOVE NEW YORK.

AMY GODINE, THE AUTHOR OF "THE BLACK WOODS," FROM CORNELL UNIVERSITY PRESS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU.