ARE >> Renee: ELECTED TO CONGRESS IN 2012, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE THOMAS MASSIE SERVES THE FOURTH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT THAT STRETCHES ACROSS NORTHERN KENTUCKY.

I CAUGHT UP WITH THE CONGRESSMAN AT GENERAL BUTLER STATE PARK TO TALK ABOUT THE BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE PACKAGE THAT IS BEFORE THE HOUSE, HIS POSITION ON COVID-19 VACCINATIONS AND CORONAVIRUS RELIEF PACKAGES AND FOOD SUPPLY ISSUES.

THAT'S NOW ON "CONGRESSIONAL UPDATE."

♪ ♪ >> Renee: CONGRESSMAN THOMAS MASSIE, THANK YOU FOR INJIET INVITING US TO BE AT THE GENERAL BUTLER STATE PARK.

BEAUTIFUL SCENE AND ESTHETIC WE HAVE GOING ON.

THE YOU.

>> THIS IS THE LOVELY 4th DISTRICT OF KENTUCKY, RENEE AND YOU ARE ALWAYS WELCOME HERE.

>> Renee: IT IS CERTAINLY BEAUTIFUL HERE.

A LITTLE SERENITY FOR THE TIMES AND WE CAN STAND THAT.

THANK YOU FOR MAKING THE TIME BECAUSE WE KNOW YOU ARE PREPARING TO GO BACK TO WASHINGTON SOONER THAN PLANNED.

THE AUGUST RECESS IS BEING CUT SHORT TO DEAL WITH INFRASTRUCTURE AND GOD KNOWS WHAT ELSE MIGHT BE COMING UP SO LET'S JUST START THERE, WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE PACKAGE THAT THE U.S. SENATE PASSED.

McCONNELL, THE MINORITY LEADER SUPPORTED THE MEASURE, RAND PAUL DID NOT.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS MEASURE?

WILL YOU VOTE FOR IT?

>> WELL, I'D LIKE TO BE ABLE TO VOTE FOR IT BECAUSE I'M ON THE INFRASTRUCTURE COMMITTEE.

AND SO THE HOUSE, IN THE HOUSE INFRASTRUCTURE COMMITTEE, WE MARKED UP A SIMILAR BILL WHICH WAS MUCH MORE AMBITIOUS.

IT WOULD HAVE SPENT MORE MONEY AND THE SENATE PEARED PARED IT BACK AND THE ANTICIPATION IS NOT THAT WOULD YOU TAKE THE SENATE BILL AND THE HOUSE BILL AND MERGE THEM IN CONFERENCE BUT THAT THE HOUSE WILL NOW ACCEPT THE SENATE TERMS.

I AM LIKELY NOT TO VOTE FOR THAT BILL.

I SUPPORT INFRASTRUCTURE OBVIOUSLY, BUT ONLY ABOUT $110 BILLION OF THIS TRILLION DOLLARS PLUS BILL IS ACTUALLY GOING TO ROADS AND BRIDGES.

AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM THAT I HAVE WITH IT.

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE IN IT.

AND IT IS ALSO LOOKING LIKE IN THE HOUSE, THAT SPEAKER PELOSI IS GOING TO TRY TO COUPLE THE TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE BILL WITH A MUCH BROADER BUDGET DEAL, THE RECONCILIATION DEAL THAT WOULD SPEND UPWARDS OF $3 TRILLION.

SO WE MITE NOT GET A CHANCE TO VOTE ON THEM DESPERATELY.

BUT EVEN IF WE DID, I'M PROBABLY A NO ON THIS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL FOR ALL THE EXTRANEOUS SPENDING.

>> Renee: IS THERE ANYTHING THAT WOULD CHANGE YOUR MIND AND IS THERE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR AMENDMENTS TO THE BILL?

>> I DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO LET US HAVE AMENDMENTS.

THEY'RE DRIVING US BACK AND WE ARE GOING TO VOTE ON WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET.

IF WE WERE TO MODIFY THIS BILL AT ALL, THEY WOULD HAVE TO VOTE ON IT AGAIN IN THE SENATE.

SO IT'S SORT OF A TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT BILL AND OUR COMMITTEE WON'T GET A CHANCE TO HAVE ANY AMENDMENTS AND THERE WON'T BE A CHANCE TO HAVE THEM ON THE FLOOR I'M AFRAID.

>> Renee: IF YOU VOTE AGAINST IT, AND WE KNOW A LOT ABOUT THE BRIDGE, HOW DO YOUR CONSTITUENTS FEEL ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU COULD BE VOTING AGAINST A MEASURE THAT COULD HAVE A DIRECT IMPACT PARTICULARLY ON THEIR TRANSPORTATION AND THIS VERY CRITICAL AREA, ALL THIS COMMERCE THAT COMES THROUGH THE BRIDGE, WHAT IT MEANS TO THE OVERALL NATION'S ECONOMY.

HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THAT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, KENTUCKY'S 4th DISTRICT HAS THREE LOCKS AND DAMS.

WE'VE GOT ABOUT 20 BRIDGES THAT GO FROM KENTUCKY INTO OTHER STATES FROM OUR CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.

WAVE' GOT THE CBG AIRPORT, WHICH IS CRITICAL.

BY THE WAY, NOT ALL OF THAT IS IN THIS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.

THERE ARE SEPARATE BILLS THAT FUND THOSE THAT I HAVE VOTED FOR IN THE PAST.

I HAVE VOTED FOR INFRASTRUCTURE BILLS IN THE PAST SO I THINK MY CONSTITUENTS BELIEVE MY REASONS FOR VOTING AGAINST IT.

THERE IS ALWAYS THE DANGER THAT SOMEBODY GETS UPSET WITH YOU.

BUT IF I MAY POINT OUT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT IN THIS BILL THAT I DON'T THINK SHOULD BE IN AN INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.

THERE IS A REQUIREMENT TO HAVE HIGH-SPEED INTERNET FOR PRISON INMATES, FOR INSTANCE.

THERE IS OVER $15 BILLION FOR AN ELECTRIC CAR INFRASTRUCTURE PUBLICLY FUNDED INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN.

I DRIVE AN ELECTRIC CAR.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE MORE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR ELECTRIC CARS.

THE PROBLEM IS WHEN THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT AT THE REST STOPS, IT DISINCENTIVIZES WHAT IS ALREADY HAPPENING, IS WHICH IS PRIVATE INVESTMENT OF PRIVATE CHARGING STATIONS AT PRIVATELY OWNED GAS STATIONS.

I WILL ACTUALLY BE DRIVING MY ELECTRIC CAR TO D.C. AND USE PRIVATELY FUNDED INFRASTRUCTURE.

I'M JUST AFRAID IF THE GOVERNMENT GETS INVOLVED, THEY WILL ACTUALLY HAVE A NEGATIVE EFFECT ON THE ELECTRIC CAR INFRASTRUCTURE.

ALSO, FOR THE 4th DISTRICT, WE KIND OF LOSE IN THIS DEAL BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF MONEY IN HERE FOR MASS TRANSIT.

THERE IS AS MUCH MONEY FOR MASS TRANSIT AS THERE IS FOR ROADS AND BRIDGES IN THIS BILL.

NOT VERY MUCH OF THAT IS GOING TO FIND ITS WAY TO KENTUCKY'S 14th DISTRICT.

>> Renee: IF THE BILL WERE NOT TETHERED TO THE RECONCILIATION BILL, WOULD YOU FIND ANY REASON TO SUPPORT IT ON ITS OWN, SINGULARLY?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN WHEN I GO THE TO CONGRESS, I BEGGED THEM TO PUT ME ON THE TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE COMMITTEE BECAUSE I BELIEVE NUMBER ONE THERE IS A FEDERAL NEXUS FOR IT.

AND NUMBER 2, WE CAN FIND WAYS TO PAY FOR IT.

IT'S MOSTLY FUNDED WITH USER FEES.

THE PEOPLE THAT USE THE INFRASTRUCTURE PAY FOR IT.

IF THIS WERE-- IF I GO THE TO VOTE ON $110 BILLION MONEY FOR ROADS AND BRIDGES, I WOULD BE A YES FOR THAT FOR SURE.

THAT IS NOT WHAT IS GOING TO BE PRESENTED TO ME.

ONE OF MY CLIENTS SINCE I HAVE BEEN IN CONGRESS IS THAT THEY PUT SO MANY THINGS TOGETHER AND I THINK WE WOULD BE A LOT BETTER OFF IF WE HAD ONE VOTE ON ONE TOPIC.

>> Renee: MAY NOT GET AS FAR.

PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED THAT'S THE WAY TO ADVANCE A LOT OF MEASURES AT ONCE AND TO TWIST SOME ARMS CREATIVELY BUT YOURS IS UNBENDABLE IN THAT REGARD.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE PREVAILING WISDOM IN D.C., THE BIGGER THE BILL IS, THE MORE REASONS THERE ARE TO VOTE FOR IT.

THERE IS SOMETHING FOR EVERYBODY IN IT.

AND YOU KNOW, THEY'LL ALMOST DARE TO YOU VOTE AGAINST IT.

THE OMNIBUS BILL I ALWAYS POINT OUT ALMOST ALWAYS HAS A PAY RAISE FOR SOLDIERS IN IT AND THEY WILL USE THAT AGAINST YOU BECAUSE YOU VOTED AGAINST SOMETHING ELSE IN THE BILL.

BUT FOR ME, THE MORE THINGS THEY ADD TO A BILL, A LOT OF TIMES THAT JUST BECOMES MORE REASONS TO VOTE AGAINST THE BILL UNFORTUNATELY IF WE CAN'T AFFORD IT.

>> Renee: PIVOTING TO COVID AND SOME MEASURES THAT DID YOU NOT SUPPORT AND ONE THAT YOU TRIED TO CREATIVELY HOLD UP THE VOTE ON AND THAT WAS THE CARES PACKAGE AS WE OFTEN HEAR, THE CORONAVIRUS AID RELIEF AND ECONOMIC SECURITY ACT.

AS YOU WELL KNOW, THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT YOU HAD A LOT OF BACKLASH FOR AND TRYING TO FORCE MEMBERS TO GO ON RECORD.

EVEN THE PRESIDENT AT THE TIME, DONALD TRUMP, CALLED YOU A THIRD RATE GRAND STANDER.

>> I HAD FORGOTTEN THAT.

>> Renee: THAT'S WHY I'M HERE.

>> THANKS FOR REMINDING ME.

>> Renee: THAT'S WHY I'M HERE.

I WANT TO ASK IF YOU HAVE ANY MISGIVINGS ON YOUR ACTIONS ON THAT AND HOW THAT TURNED OUT AND WHAT DID YOU GAIN FROM THAT?

WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH?

>> YEAH, JUST TO RECAP, WE SPENT $5.2 TRILLION DEFICIT SPENDING.

WE'VE PRINTED IT OR BORROWED IT IN THE LAST 18 MONTHS, THAT'S 40,000 OF DEBT FOR EVERY HOUSEHOLD.

THE FIRST BIG BILL WAS MARCH 27, 2020.

LY NEVER FORGET THAT DATE.

I CALL IT THE SINGULARITY.

I HAD TRUMP CALLING ME A THIRD RATE GRAND STANDER, NANCY PELOSI CALLING ME A DANGEROUS NUISANCE.

JOHN KERRY CALLING ME SOMETHING WE CAN'T SAY ON KET AND LIZ CHENEY DONATING TO MY PRIMARY OPPONENT ALL IN ONE DAY.

CNN CALLED ME THE MOST HATED MAN IN WASHINGTON D.C. AND I HAVE TO CONCEDE THEY MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN THE USE RIGHT THAT DAY BECAUSE I WAS VERY HATED.

BUT WHAT I WAS THERE TO ACCOMPLISH WAS NOT TO DELAY THE BILL OR TO STOP THE BILL.

I THOUGHT WE SHOULD VOTE ON IT.

I THOUGHT WE SHOULD HAVE A RECORDED VOTE.

AND THE CONSTITUTION REQUIRES THAT YOU SHOW UP FOR WORK.

WHAT I TOLD MY COLLEAGUES WHO WERE UPSET WITH ME IS THAT YOU'VE ASKED FARMERS TO GO TO WORK, NURSES TO ABOUT TO WORK, THE GROCERY STORE BAGGERS, YOU'VE ASKED THEM TO BRING IT OUT TO YOUR CAR SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO WALK INTO THE GROCERY STORE AND YOU ARE HERE TELLING THE NATION IT'S TOO DANGEROUS TO SHOW UP FOR WORK.

THAT'S HYPOCRITICAL.

SO WHAT DID WE ACCOMPLISH FROM THAT OTHER THAN UPSETTING EVERYBODY IN WASHINGTON D.C., WHICH I THINK IN AND OF ITSELF IS AN ACCOMPLISHMENT SOME DAYS.

I BELIEVE THAT BY MAKING THEM COME TO WORK, THEY WERE RELUCTANT TO DO THE NEXT $2 TRILLION BILL AS QUICKLY.

THEY KNEW THEY WOULD HAVE TO RECONVENE AND MANY OF THEM DID NOT WANT TO COME TO WORK.

SO I USED THE FACT THAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO COME TO WORK, FORCING THEM TO COME TO WORK TO SPEND MONEY, I THINK, ACTUALLY RESULTED IN THEM SPENDING LESS MONEY AS SOON AS THEY WOULD HAVE OTHERWISE.

>> Renee: I'VE HEARD YOU YOU IN OTHER INTERVIEWS TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH THE STIMULUS PACKAGES HAVE COST US IN TERMS OF OUR DEBT CAPACITY OR OVERLOAD.

WE HAVE INCURRED $5.2 TRILLION IN DEBT CORRECTED TO THE CORONAVIRUS RELIEF.

THAT'S $40,000 EVERY HOUSEHOLD.

I'VE HEARD YOU SAY.

ADD 25% TO THE NATIONAL DEBT OVERTHE LAST 18 MONTHS, BUT IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, WE'RE KNOT BORROWING THAT MONEY FROM CHINA.

WE ARE BORROWING IT FROM OURSELVES SO CAN THAT BE CONSIDERED THE DEBT AS WE OFTEN REFER TO IT?

>> AS MY FAVORITE SENATOR RAND PAUL SAYS, YOU CAN'T TAKE WATER OUT OF THE DEEP END OF THE POOL AND PUT IT IN THE SHALLOW END OF THE POOL AND MAKE THE POOL DEEPER ON THE SHALLOW END.

IT'S KIND OF A CIRCULAR THING.

AND WHAT WE ARE GOING TO GET OUT OF IT IS INFLATION.

AND WE ARE ALREADY SEEING THAT.

ALSO, ALMOST WORSE THAN SPENDING MONEY WE DON'T HAVE OR HAVE TO GET A FEW PROMISE TO PAY BACK AT SOME POINT LATER, IS THE FACT THAT THE POLICIES HAVE ENCOURAGED PEOPLE NOT TO GO TO WORK.

NOW THERE HAVE BEEN LEGITIMATE SHUTDOWNS AND SLOWDOWNS BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN ILL FROM COVID.

THEY HAD TO STAY HOME AND SHOULD HAVE STAYED HOME WHEN THEY WERE SICK OR TOO MANY CASES IN THE WORKPLACE.

BUT WE HAVE ADOPTED THIS POLICY WHERE WE ARE PAYING POLICY NOT TO WORK-- PAYING PEOPLE NOT TO WORK NOT JUST THE PEOPLE WHO NEED IT BUT THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T NEED IT SO WHAT WE ARE ALSO STARTING TO SEE INSTEAD OF JUST INFLATION IS SUPPLY SHORTAGES.

WE HAVE SEEN IT IN THE GROCERY STORES.

WE HAD BREAKDOWNS IN THE FOOD SUPPLY CHAIN DURING COVID.

I DON'T KNOW THE PARTICULAR REASON, BUT I JUST DROVE BY THE MOTOR SPEEDWAY HERE IN MY DISTRICT AND SAW THOUSANDS OF FORD TRUCKS THERE.

THEY'RE LACKING A COMPUTER CHIP PRESUMABLY.

SINCE WE DON'T MAKE COMPUTER CHIPS, THAT'S PROBABLY A SLOWDOWN IN ANOTHER COUNTRY.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE COUNTRY WAS THERE.

BUT WE ARE STARTING TO SEE MORE OF THIS IN THE SUPPLY LINES AND I'VE HAD SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS, REGARDLESS OF POLITICAL STRIPE, WHETHER THEY'RE RESTAURANT OWNERS OR HOME BUILDERS, THEY'RE BEGGING ME TO CHANGE THE POLICIES THAT KEEP PEOPLE AT HOME, TO CHANGE THE POLICIES THAT KEEP THEM FROM COMING TO WORK.

>> Renee: I WANT TO GO BACK TO SPEAKER PELOSI FOR A MOMENT, WHEN YOU GO BACK TO WASHINGTON ON THAT MONDAY.

WE DO KNOW THAT THERE IS A MASK MANDATE THAT SHE HAS REINSTITUTED THAT WAS LET'S LET UP ON IN JUNE BUT REINSTITUTED.

WE KNOW YOUR HISTORY OF THAT.

YOU WERE DECLINED AND YOU WERE FINED $500 AND YOU TRIED TO FILE SUIT IN ORDER TO HAVE THAT OVERTURNED AND APPEALED AND THAT DID NOT WORK.

WHEN YOU RETURN TO WASHINGTON D.C., WILL YOU WEAR A MASK AS REQUIRED ON THE HOUSE CHAMBER BY SPEAKER NANCY PLEASEY?

>> I WILL NOT BE WEARING A MASK IN WASHINGTON D.C.

SO MY APPEAL IN FRONT OF THE ETHICS COMMITTEE IN CONGRESS WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL, BUT THE LAWSUIT SO FAR IS GOING REAT WELL.

-- GOING PRETTY WELL.

HAVE I TWO OTHER CONGRESSMEN, THREE ALL TOGETHER, WHO JOINED ME IN THIS LAWSUIT.

WE FILED IN FEDERAL COURT.

WE DREW A BUSH APPOINT' AS THE JUDGE.

BUT WHETHER WE WIN OR LOSE, I'M SURE PELOSI WILL APPEAL THE LAWSUIT OR THE AGENT AT ARMS OR SERGEANT-AT-ARMS OR WHOEVER THEY NAME AS THE LEGITIMATE DEFENDANT IN THIS CASE AND IT WILL GR FROM DISTRICT TO CIRCUIT COURT AND WE'LL TAKE TO IT SUPREME COURT IF WE HAVE TO.

WHAT WE BELIEVE SHE IS DOING, ONE OF THE STRONGEST PLANKS IN OUR LAWSUIT IS THAT SHE IS USING OUR SALARIES TO CHANGE OUR ACTIVITY TO MODULATE OUR SPEECH.

YOU KNOW, THE MASK FINE DOESN'T APPLY IF YOU ARE NOT IN FRONT OF A CAMERA.

AS SOON AS WE WALK OUT OF THE CHAMBER, NOBODY GETS FINED FOR WEARING A MASK.

SO WE'VE SAID IT'S A VIOLATION OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT BECAUSE IT'S COMPELLED SPEECH, TO PUT THE MASK ON IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA.

BUT SHE ALSO, WE BELIEVED VIOLATED THE 27th AMENDMENT THAT SAYS OUR SALARY CAN'T BE CHANGED WITHOUT AN INTERVENING ELECTION.

>> Renee: SHE DOCKED YOUR PAY $500.

>> MY WIFE SAYS MY PAY HAS BEEN DOCKED $500.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A PAYCHECK.

THE NEXT FINE IS $2500.

>> Renee: A PROGRESSIVE FINE.

>> IT IS PROGRESSIVE.

IT GOES UP BUT I HAVE FOUND THAT IF I WALK IN INDIES CRETELY, VOTE QUICKLY AND LEAVE THE CHAMBER, THEY DON'T HAVE TIME TO SERVE ME NOTICE.

THAT'S THE STRATEGY I WILL BE ADOPTING.

I HOPE THE SERGEANT-AT-ARMS IS NOT WATCHING THE SHOW.

>> Renee: MAYBE AFTER THE FACT.

LET'S TALK ABOUT COVID A LITTLE MORE.

WE KNOW YOU HAD THE INFECTION IN 2020 AND YOU HAVE BEEN REALLY STERN ABOUT THE BELIEF THAT YOU HAVE AS MUCH IMMUNITY AND PROTECTION FROM COVID AS SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN VACCINATED.

THAT'S A BEG DEBATE.

CAN YOU BACK THAT UP WITH SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH THAT SHOWS AND PROVES THAT IS INDEED THE CASE AND ARE YOU DISCOURAGING PEOPLE TO BECOME VACCINATED BY YOUR POSITION?

>> I WOULD SAY I'M NOT PROMOTING VACCINE HESITANCY.

I'M PROMOTING VACCINE MANDATE HESITANCY.

IN OTHER WORDS, I DON'T THINK THERE SHOULD BE A MANDATE.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY SHOULD BE MANDATED TO TAKE THE VACCINE.

IN FACT I'VE INTRODUCED A BILL THAT NOW HAS 31 CO-SPONSORS THAT WOULD KEEP THE MILITARY FROM FORCING ITS MEMBERS TO TAKE THE VACCINE.

AND YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE REASONS I'M SO STRONGLY PROMOTING THAT BILL IS MOST OF THESE VACCINE MANDATES DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE NATURAL IMMUNITY AS LEGITIMATE IMMUNITY.

WITH THE RECENT DELTA VARIANT, I BELIEVE THAT NATURAL IMMUNITY IS STRONGER AND THERE IS EVIDENCE BUILDING FOR THAT.

LET ME BE CLEAR.

I'M NOT ADVISING ANYONE TO GO OUT AND GET COVID OR SEEK TO GET COVID INSTEAD OF THE VACCINE.

IF YOU ARE IN AN OLDER AGE CATEGORY AND AT HIGH RISK FOR THE VIRUS, IT MIGHT BE A GOOD IDEA TO GET THE VACCINE.

IT MAY REDUCE YOUR SYMPTOMS.

BUT IF YOU'VE ALREADY HAD, AND I'LL JUST SPEAK FOR MYSELF INSTEAD OF GIVING MEDICAL ADVICE.

I'VE ALREADY HAD COVID.

THE PFIZER TRIAL DATA, THE MODERNA TRIAL DATA, THE CLEVELAND CLINIC STUDY WHICH HAD 50,000 PLUS PARTICIPANTS IN IT, AND THE ISRAEL STUDY WHICH HAD OVER A MILLION PARTICIPANTS IN IT, NONE OF THEM DEMONSTRATED AN ADVANTAGE OF TAKING THE VACCINE IF YOU'VE ALREADY HAD COVID.

AND SO I WON'T BE TAKING IT.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY SHOULD BE MANDATED TO TAKE IT.

AND I ESPECIALLY BELIEVE IF YOU'VE ALREADY HAD COVID, THAT SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED AS A FORM OF IMMUNITY THAT'S JUST AS LEGITIMATE AS THE VACCINE.

>> Renee: BUT ARE THERE NOT CASES WHERE WE CALL THEM BREAKTHROUGH INFECTIONS WHEN IT COMES TO THOSE WHO ARE VACCINATED BUT THERE ARE SOME WHO HAVE BEEN REINFECTED WITH COVID WHO HAVE HAD IT ONCE AND PERHAPS EVEN TWO TIMES.

PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED THAT THE MESSAGE YOU ARE SENDING IS PERILOUS AND DANGEROUS TO YOUR CONSTITUENTS AND OTHERS WHO WATCH YOU ON LOTS OF NATIONAL CABLE NEWS NETWORKS.

YOUR RESPONSE.

>> WELL, I'M PROMOTING FREEDOM.

AND THERE ARE RARE CASES, BREAKTHROUGH CASES, IF YOU WILL, OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD PRIOR INFECTION AND DEVELOPED IMMUNITY FROM THAT OF THEM GETTING REINFECTED.

SOME OF THE CASES ARE ACTUALLY LONG COVID.

THEY WOULD HAVE TO GO IN AND DO AN RNA ANALYSIS OF THE VIRUS TO KNOW THAT IT WAS TWO DIFFERENT STRAINS AND THAT YOU WERE REINFECTED INSTEAD OF CARRYING THE INFECTION FOR A LONG TIME.

WHAT WE ARE SEEINGING AND WHAT WE SAW IN ISRAEL, THE BREAKTHROUGH CASES ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO OCCUR IN THE VACCINATED GROUP THAN THE PRIOR IMMUNITY GROUP.

>> Renee: HAVE YOU HAD AN AIN'T BODY TEST AND DO YOU STILL TEST HIGH WITH POTENT ANTIBODIES EVEN AFTER ALL OF THIS TIME?

>> I HAD AN ANTIBODY TEST IN JULY OF LAST YEAR WHICH TESTED HIGH.

I'VE HAD A SUBSEQUENT ANTIBODY TEST THAT DIDN'T TEST POSITIVE.

IT WAS NEGATIVE.

THAT WAS IN NOVEMBER.

SUBSEQUENT TO THAT, I'VE QUARANTINED WITH SOMEBODY WHO HAD COVID IN MY HOUSE.

I WON'T SAY WHICH OF MY KIDS BUT I DIDN'T CATCH IT EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS NO SIGN THAT I HAD ANTIBODIES IN THE ANTIBODY TEST BECAUSE AS THE STUDIES HAVE SHOWN, THAT WAS JUST A TEST FOR A SPECIFIC TYPE OF ANTIBODIES AND THERE ARE OTHER ANTIBODIES, T-CELL AND B-CELL IMMUNITY THAT ARE LONGER LIVED THAN THE IGG ANTIBODIES.

>> Renee: DO YOU FEAR AT ALL OF CONTRACTING THE DELTA VARIANT WHICH IS MORE POTENT THAN THE ORIGINAL SARS?

>> I GOT A COLD TWO WEEKENDS AGO AND IT FELT LIKE THE FIRST BOUT OF COVID.

I TOOK A HOME TEST AND THEN I WENT TO A HOSPITAL AND TOOK A DRIVE-THRU LAB TEST WHERE THEY WALK OUT IN THE MOON SUIT AND SWAB YOU AND THEN I TOOK ANOTHER HOME TEST AND THEN I'VE SUBSEQUENTLY TAKEN ANOTHER HOME TEST.

THEY'VE ALL COME BACK NEGATIVE.

AND I KNEW THERE WOULD BE A NEWS STORY.

I JUST WANTED TO KNOW IF IT HAD HAPPENED OR NOT.

BUT I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE.

LIKE I'M NOT RULING THAT OUT.

I DO BELIEVE-- >> Renee: HAVE YOU RULED OUT GETTING A VACCINE?

>> I WILL NOT CONSIDER GETTING THE VACCINE UNTIL I SEE EVIDENCE THAT IT IMPROVES ON THE NATURAL IMMUNITY THAT I'VE ALREADY BEEN CONVEYED.

WHICH MEANS-- AND JUST TO TRANSLATE, I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT EVIDENCE AND SO I'M NOT COMPELLED TO GET A VACCINE NOW BUT I'M NOT TELLING PEOPLE TO NOT TAKE THE VACCINE.

I'M TELLING PEOPLE TO TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR, DON'T LISTEN TO A POLITICIAN.

DON'T LISTEN TO A PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERT.

I HAD A SORT OF TANGLE WITH THE CDC EARLY ON.

I FOUND A MISTAKE ON THEIR WEBSITE.

PROMPTLY CALLED THE DIRECTOR IN WASHINGTON D.C. SHE GOT THEIR TOP SCIENTIST ON THE LINE.

THEY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT WHAT THEY HAD PRINTED WAS INCORRECT.

BY THE WAY, THEY WERE CHARACTERIZING THE PFIZER TRIAL DATA TO SAY THAT IF YOU HAD PRIOR INFECTION, THAT THE VACCINE WOULD BE 92% EFFICACIOUS WHICH WAS NOT TRUE.

THEY CONCEDED THAT.

THEY SAID THEY WOULD CHANGE THE WEBSITE AND A MONTH LATER, THEY HADN'T.

AND THEY NEVER CORRECTED IT.

THEY CHANGED IT BUT THEY DIDN'T CORRECT IT.

FORTUNATELY I RECORDED EVERY SINGLE PHONE CALL.

SO IF ANYBODY WANTS TO GO THROUGH THE ARCHIVES AND SEE WHAT REALLY HAPPENED, WHAT I CAME TO REALLY IS, I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS MAL INTENT AT THE CDC.

I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS A CONSPIRACY OR A PROFIT MOTIVE AT THE CDC.

I BELIEVE THAT THEY DON'T TRUST INDIVIDUALS TO KNOW WHETHER THEY'VE HAD COVID OR NOT AND SO THEY BELIEVE, AS PUBLIC HEALTH POLICY, THAT THEIR GENERAL ADVICE SHOULD BE EVERYBODY SHOULD GET THE VACCINE.

BUT I THINK IN THEIR HEART OF HEARTS, THEY KNOW AND THERE IS ENOUGH SCIENCE TO SHOW THAT IF SOMEBODY SOPHISTICATOR-- IS SOPHISTICATED ENOUGH TO GET THE ANTIBODY TEST TO KNOW IF THEY'VE HAD COVID, THAT THE VACCINE DOES NOT BENEFIT THEM.

THAT MAY CHANGE.

>> Renee: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE MANDATORY COVID VACCINATIONS FOR THE MILITARY.

THE MILITARY IS MOVING FORWARD WITH THAT, I THINK, SEPTEMBER 15 IS THE DATE THAT THAT POLICY WOULD BE EFFECTIVE.

DEFENSE SECRETARY LORD AUSTIN SAID THE REQUIREMENT IS CRITICAL TO WHAT HE CALLED MAINTAINING MILITARY READINESS.

WE HAVE HEARD THE FORMER SECRETARY OF THE NAVY SEAN O'KEEFE WHO STRONGLY SUPPORTS THE VACCINE MANDATE.

SAYS IF THIS ACTUALLY CAN WORK AS A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY, GIVEN THAT TROOPS TRAVEL ALL OVER THE WORLD AND ARE IN TIGHT SPACES, GIVEN THE CONDITIONS THAT TROOPS ARE OFTEN IN AND THE LOCATIONS THEY'RE OFTEN IN, WHY WOULD YOU BE AGAINST THEIR PROTECTION IF IT COMES DOWN TO A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY?

>> I THINK THEY'RE EMPLOYING POLITICAL SCIENCE AND NOT SCIENCE BECAUSE THEY, TOO, REFUSE TO AK KNOWLEDGE PRIOR INFECTION.

YOU CAN DO A-- IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO HAVE YOUNG MALES, WHO, BY THE WAY, IT'S A LOW RISK OF MYO CAR INDICTS ONE IN 5,000 HAVE THE ADVERSE SIDE EFFECT IF YOU ARE BETWEEN 18 AND 24 YEARS OLD AND MALE, THAT'S A PREDOMINANT DEMOGRAPHIC OF OUR MILITARY.

AND I JUST DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING ABOUT IT SCIENTIFICALLY.

REGARDLESS OF WHAT I SAY, HERE IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN AND I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I'M THE SPONSOR OF THIS BILL, I HAVE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY CALLING ME UP, ASKING ME WHAT TO DO.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO LEAVE THE MILITARY.

THEIR OFFICERS ARE GOING TO RESIGN COMMISSIONS FOREGO HEALTHCARE BENEFITS AND PENSIONS THAT THEY'VE EARNED.

IT IS SAD THAT THEY'RE BEING FORCED TO MAKE THIS DECISION.

THERE ARE EVEN ENLISTED MEMBERS WILLING TO BE COURT MARTIALED OR TAKE A LESS THAN HONORABLE DISCHARGE BECAUSE THEY FEEL PASSIONATE ABOUT NOTTIC 25ING THE VACCINE.

THERE MAY BE RELIGIOUS OR SCIENTIFIC REASONS, BUT THAT'S WHY I'M SPONSORING THIS BILL.

AND I THINK THAT EVEN IF THIS BILL DOESN'T PASS, AND IT'S NOT LIKELY TO, HAVING 30 MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO ARE ON A WRITTEN DOCUMENT THAT SAYS THIS SHOULD NOT GO FORWARD, IS A GOOD STATEMENT AND HOPEFULLY IT'S GIVING SECRETARY OF DEFENSE PAUSE FOR THOUGHT.

>> Renee: THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE ALREADY REQUIRES 17 VACCINATIONS, CORRECT, UNDER VARYING CONDITIONS FOR SERVICE MEMBERS?

AND THAT'S BASED ON WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO BE ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

WHY IS THE COVID VACCINE ANY DIFFERENT?

YOU HAVE BEEN OUT OF THIS COUNTRY, TRAVELED INTERNATIONALLY WHERE HAVE YOU HAD TO GET A SERIES OF VACCINATIONS IN ORDER TO LEAVE AND REENTER THIS COUNTRY.

HAVE YOU NOT?

>> BY THE WAY, I AM VACCINE CHOICE, NOT ANTI-VAX.

I TOOK MY BOOSTER SHOTS BEFORE I WENT TO INDIA THREE YEARS AGO.

THAT WAS THE TETANUS, DIPHTHERIA, PER TUSES AND I TOOK A HEPATITIS SHOT.

I CHOSE NOT TO TAKE THE FLU SHOT.

IF THE FLU BAD IN INDIA?

WHY WOULD I TAKE IT?

WE THINK YOU CAN USE IT WHILE YOU ARE HERE.

I DECLINED THAT.

I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE A CHOICE IN TAKING THE SHOTS.

THAT'S A BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.

NOW IN THE MILITARY, IT IS TRUE THAT YOU CAN BE COMPELLED TO TO BREAK YOUR LEGS, TO BREAK YOUR BACK, TO RUN IN FRONT OF GUNFIRE, RIGHT?

A VACCINE IS PROBABLY NOT THE RISKIEST THING YOU HAVE RESIGNED UP TO DO WHEN YOU JOIN THE MILITARY AND YOU DID DO IT KNOWING THAT, IN BOOT CAMP, YOU ARE GOING TO BE SHOT FULL OF ALL SORTS OF VACCINES, BUT IF YOU LOOK BACK TO THE HISTORY OF OUR LAST VACCINE MANDATED IN THE MILITARY, THE ANTHRAX VACCINE AND RUMSFELD LOST A LAWSUIT ON THAT WHERE THEY WERE TRYING TO COMPEL EVERYBODY IN THE MILITARY TO TAKE IT.

AND THEY HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LEFT.

TRAINED PILOTS, SPECIAL FORCES, PEOPLE WHO LEFT THE MILITARY OVER THE ANTHRAX VACCINE REQUIREMENT.

AND I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S A GOOD HISTORY TO REPEAT.

IF THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS SAFE AND EFFICACIOUS AND WHAT HAS A LONG HISTORY AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU SIGNED UP IN THE MILITARY YOU KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO TAKE IT, FINE, BUT FOR SOMETHING BORN OUT VERY NOVEL DO I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD BE FORCED ON THE MEMBERS OF OUR MILITARY.

>> Renee: I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE JANUARY 6 CONGRESSIONAL MEDALS VOTE IN AFGHANISTAN BUT WE WILL HAVE TO RESERVE THAT FOR ANOTHER CONVERSATION.

FOOD SUPPLY AND YOU MENTIONED THIS EARLY ON IN THE INTERVIEW, SUPPLIER ISSUES.

A LOT OF INFLATION IN THIS INDUSTRY.

14% OVER14%.

BEEF IS UP 12%.

PORK IS UP 39%.

CHICKEN IS UP 16%.

YOU ARE A CATTLE FARMER.

HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU ABOUT THIS AND WHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO GET THE PRICES IN CHECK AND ARE THEY EXACERBATED BY THE PANDEMIC OR ARE THEY ARTIFICIALLY INFLATED AS AN EXCUSE TO USE THE PANDEMIC TO GET THE LEVEL OF PRICING?

>> IT'S NOT JUST INFLATION AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY I KNOW THAT.

FARMERS ARE SEEING THE PRICES THEY GET FOR THE LIVESTOCK GO DOWN NOT UP AND THE PRICES IN THE SUPERMARKET GOING UP.

THE SPREAD IS GROWING AND THAT'S TROUBLING A LOT OF US IN THIS COUNTRY.

FOUR MEAT PACKERS CONTROL 85% OF THE MEAT SLAUGHTERED IN THE UNITED STATES.

THEY SIT BETWEEN THE FARMER AND THE CONSUMER.

ONE IS WHOLLY OWNED BY CHINA.

ONE IS WHOLLY OWNED BY BRAZIL AND THE REST ARE MULTINATIONAL OR BIG CORPORATIONS.

IT'S HARD FOR SOMEBODY HERE IN CARROLL COUNTY WHO RAISES CATTLE TO SELL DIRECTLY TO THE CONSUMER.

WE ARE FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE A COUPLE USDA FACILITIES, USDA CERTIFIED FACILITIES IN KENTUCKY WHO WILL DO THAT BUT THEY'RE BACKED UP FOR OVER A YEAR AND ANIMALS DON'T WAIT.

THEY GET OLD AND THERE IS NO NURSING HOME FOR ANIMALS AND SO WHAT I'VE DONE IS INTRODUCE A BILL CALLED THE PRIME ACT TO TRY TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM IN THE BRITTLENESS OF THE FOOD SUPPLY.

DURING COVID WE ACTUALLY SAW FARMERS WHO HAD TO EUTHANIZE ANIMALS BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T GET THEM PROCESSED.

THE PRIME ACT WOULD ALLOW A FARMER TO USE A LOCAL PROCESSOR WHO IS INSPECTED BY THE HARM AND OCCASIONALLY INSPECTED BY THE USDA BUT NOT ALWAYS HAVING A USDA STAFFER THERE TO USE THAT LOCAL PROCESSOR TO SELL TO LOCAL CONSUMERS AS LONG AS THEY DON'T LEAVE THE STATE WITH THAT COMMERCE.

THIS BILL I DOUBLED THE NUMBER OF CO-SPONSORED SINCE COVID EXPOSED THE BRITTLENESS OF OUR FOOD SUPPLY CHAIN.

I JUST HAD ANOTHER CO-SPONSOR SIGN UP TODAY FOR THE PRIME ACT AND SO I THINK THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE OF GETTING A BILL LIKE THIS PASSED AS AN AMENDMENT TO A FARM BILL, FOR INSTANCE.

>> Renee: WE'LL KEEP OUR EYES ON IT AND WE REALLY APPRECIATE THE TIME THAT HAVE YOU TAKEN TO BE WITH US BEFORE YOU DRIVE OFF TO WASHINGTON BECAUSE WE KNOW YOU ARE GOING TO DO THAT IN YOUR ELECTRIC CAR.

WE WISH YOU SAFE TRAVELS AND THANK YOU SO MUCH CONGRESSMAN THOMAS MASSIE.

>> THANKS RENEE AND CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR EMMY.

>> Renee: THANK YOU, SIR.

I APPRECIATE THAT.

NEXT TIME ON CONGRESSIONAL UPDATE, WE ARE ON LOCATION IN SOMERSET, KENTUCKY, TO SPEAK WITH U.S. REPRESENTATIVE HAL ROGERS OF KENTUCKY'S FIFTH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.

JOIN US TOMORROW NIGHT AT 6:30 EASTERN, 5:30 CENTRAL FOR CONGRESSIONAL UPDATE.

OUR SERIES OF INTERVIEWS WITH MEMBERS OF KENTUCKY'S FEDERAL DELEGATION.

I'M RENEE SHAW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD NIGHT.