>> Major funding for "Chat Box with David Cruz" is provided by the members of the New Jersey education Association, making public schools great for every child.

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♪ David: Welcome to "Chat Box."

I am David Cruz.

We have been talking to the Democrats running for U.S. Senate and we continue with that today.

We were unable to schedule first lady Tammy Murphy so we hope to hear from her in the future.

We will get an early look at the race from a poster.

We begin with one of the first names to jump into the race, a longtime activist, Larry Hamm.

>> Good to see you.

David: This is your second run.

This is a bare-bones campaign, much like your first run, or is there a difference between the runs?

Larry: I think you are right.

They are very much the same.

Now that I have the experience from the first campaign.

I am working harder than I was in the first campaign.

David: If that is possible.

Every day you are involved in activism.

Larry: That is correct.

David: You are the underdog with probably the most distilled message.

Why Larry Hamm over the other candidates in this field?

Larry: Because Larry Hamm is concerned about everyday people, the working class and poor people.

I will be a senator to fight for them and not be one subject to the influence of the rich and powerful.

David: There used to be, in the 1970's and 1980's when we talk about campaigns, people would refer to the urban agenda.

You hardly ever hear that term anymore.

It makes me wonder, does anybody really have an urban agenda anymore?

Larry: Yes, there is an urban agenda.

At the top of my urban agenda is gentrification.

We must stop the march of gentrification in our urban areas because it is driving up the cost of housing, particularly it is driving up the cost of rents, making communities on live about in terms of being able to -- unlivable in terms of being able to afford the rent.

We need a holistic policy in urban areas that is also affordable.

David: I do not know if you saw a couple weeks ago Senator Menendez on the Senate floor the day before he asked for charges against him to be dismissed.

He called himself a patriot.

In your mind, is Senator Menendez a patriot?

Larry: In his mind he might be a patriot, but right now he is someone who has been indicted more than once with some very serious charges.

I really think Senator Menendez should step down.

He has already stepped down as chair of the Foreign Relations Committee.

It would probably be in his best interest and the best interest for the state for him to step down considering the charges he is facing.

David: He was required to step down because he was under indictment.

Larry: Yes.

David: You were one of the first people to call for him to resign.

There is this narrative that I guess the Menendez camp and others who support him -- that dwindling number of people who support him -- that's a you are losing a real champion for immigration reform, issues like that.

He has this institutional knowledge and institutional connections and so on.

Is that a fair argument to make?

Larry: He certainly has a long record of experience, having served in a number of offices before he became United States Senator.

He has been in the Senate for a while.

But he has been charged with some very serious crimes.

Does having experience excuse you?

Is and that the same argument Donald Trump is using?

Because he was the president he is immune from prosecution?

It is a bad argument.

David: Tammy Murphy is the biggest name, my guess, in this race.

She is the governor's wife.

She said fewer people would object to her running for name was Tommy Murphy, suggesting there is some gender bias in the way people are looking at her campaign.

Is that a fair argument for her to make?

Larry: Gender bias is real, and I think there is a dimension that she and other women face when they run.

However, that is not the biggest issue with Tammy Murphy.

The biggest issue is that she has undo access, undue influence due to the fact she is the wife of the governor, the leader of the Democratic Party in the state.

She comes from one of the wealthiest families.

In fact, it is interesting, she acknowledges some of these things in her campaign video but those very acknowledgments point out what is wrong with our political system right now.

Our political system is dominated by money.

Everybody knows it.

It is not a secret.

She comes from a very wealthy millionaire family.

All of that gives her advantages that the rest of us, the rest of the candidates, do not have.

David: One of the other candidates in this race, Patricia Campos-Medina was talking to us.

I want to play a piece of tape from her.

Dr. Campos-Medina: I am asking her to stop using her role as First Lady to go to places to campaign.

They are giving her access because she is keeping her title.

David: What about that?

I do not know how that would work because she is the first lady by virtue of her marriage to the governor.

She makes the point that the first lady has the opportunity to take advantage of her official role to advance campaign issues that she wants to use.

Larry: Right.

In one sense, Patricia is right.

I know Patricia.

She and I are friends.

We were co-chairs of the Bernie Sanders campaign.

There are validity and the points she is making.

Again, the bigger point is -- the wealth that she has in the power that she has gives her advantages that neither Patricia nor I or Andy Kim have in this race.

It is an unfair advantage and it is unfortunate that our political system works in this way.

The challenge but I would make to Tammy Murphy would not be to step down from her role as First Lady.

That would be difficult to do because she is the wife of the governor.

I would challenge Tammy Murphy, Andy Kim and all of the candidates to a public debate.

A debate that is not a closed debate.

It is open to all of us will get on the ballot.

David: We will try to facilitate that right here if we can.

Let me get to a couple issues as my time runs out.

The migrant crisis has come home to New Jersey in the sense that we saw a couple weeks ago buses in Trenton, New Brunswick, here in Jersey City and Newark, as well, with migrants moving on to New York.

It raised the question of, what responsibility does the state of New Jersey have to provide help to folks in obvious need?

Larry: Well, I think that people who are in need should be helped.

However, this is a complicated issue.

Here is the part of it that I would zero on -- the immigration issue is a federal issue.

It is overseen by federal law.

I think it is the responsibility of the federal government to provide our states and localities with the resources needed to help fulfill the needs of those newly arrived persons to our communities.

It is a very serious issue.

We need to do more to secure the border, not with a wall, but with resources, more personnel, technology and equipment that they need.

We need to have a humane immigration policy.

We need to recognize the human rights of immigrants.

We should not be splitting up their families.

We should not be putting children in cages.

We should find a way, a path for citizenship for all of those persons who are in the country now.

And also, we should recognize the dreamers, the DACA, these young people.

David: If folks end up here -- let's say they are put on a bus in Texas and end up here in New Jersey and want to stay here in New Jersey, the state needs to work something out there because folks are going to stay here.

Larry: The state needs to work something out because the federal government, the Congress, the Senate and the house must step up and deal with this issue.

The logjam that exists right now, the failure to implement comprehensive immigration reform is only going to make the situation worse.

Every day that we fail to do this, the problem is going to get worse.

Again, federal government needs to step up and provide more resources to our states and municipalities so that they can help folks who arrived in our communities.

David: We have international conflicts all over the place.

The one that has been brought to the front burner here in the states is Israel and Hamas.

Larry: Yes.

David: Are you one who supports a Cease Fire, A, and, B, what is the senator Hamm solution?

In 30 seconds.

Larry: I am the first candidate who called for a cease-fire back in October.

I think that -- there is no military solution here.

We must have a permanent, sustained Cease Fire.

We must seriously deal -- we had abandoned the issue of -- we let it go adrift.

President Trump essentially said we are going to support Israel.

He made -- he recognized Jerusalem as the capital and we abandon the Palestinians.

What happened on October 7 was terrible.

Whenever innocent people are taken hostage or killed.

But the context of it is the 75-year-old occupation of the Palestinian people.

That is the basis of it.

We need a permanent sustained Cease Fire.

We need unfettered, unqualified humanitarian aid now.

And the hostages need to be returned.

Hostages on both sides.

Because Israel has thousands of persons -- Palestinian persons -- detained we have not been charged with anything.

David: Larry Hamm is the chairman of the People's organization for progress.

We will see you out there.

Larry: Thank you, David.

David: Let's assess where this race is at the moment.

The primary is in June which is just around the corner.

Joining us to discuss that is the director of the Eagleton center for public interest polling.

Good to see you again.

Happy new year.

>> Happy New Year.

Always great seeing you.

David: If someone else's way to get in this race, they better hurry up, right?

>> Believe it or not we have six months to go, if that.

This will come quickly and it is coming on top of a presidential race that everyone is watching.

This is another election New Jersey residents have to pay attention to.

David: The two biggest names in the race are Tammy Murphy and Andy Kim.

Is there a front runner yet?

Ashley: I don't think so.

We did a little bit of polling before the holidays and their numbers look the same as last time.

We do not see a front runner between these two.

They are widely unknown or people do not have an opinion.

Voters are fatigued.

They have to pay attention to the presidential election, primaries coming up even though they are not in the garden state, and now it is thinking about an election that leads to another election in a couple of months down the road.

I do not think voters are necessarily tapped into the candidates for the Senate primary.

David: Does that provide an opportunity for someone else to jump into this race?

Ashley: It may provide an opportunity but it also means, obviously, the two presumed front runners with Kim and Murphy need to get that name recognition and be out there with voters friend to stake their claim.

David: Murphy has the support of large parts of the establishment.

Many of the county organizations, which gets her the line and great ballot positioning as a result.

She is raising lots of money.

We keep hearing this undercurrent, call it resentment, maybe, that she is starting the race with al e -- a leg up.

Is not real or just opponents trying to push a narrative?

Ashley: It is coming down to messaging and politics and what voters hear.

We have a lot of complexities in this race.

We have the senator who has not yet dropped out.

Another indictment added from since we last talked.

We have a member of Congress with his seats going to be vacated, that will be a race to watch when we get to that point in the election cycle.

Besides -- we have Tammy Murphy who is the first lady, the governor's wife.

All of this presents complexities without voters decide, how County chairs decide, when we are talking about the party line.

The word of the last two years, all of this is unprecedented.

David: We heard about the Patricia Campos-Medina call for Murphy to give up her official role as first lady because it gives her almost the power of incumbency.

She is the first lady by virtue of marriage, so I do not know how that would work, but does Campos-Medina have a point?

Ashley: It certainly gives Tammy Murphy a leg up in terms of the behind the doors power she can utilize to her husband, the governor, and of course the Clout, the Army and the know-how and the institutional knowledge she has built up as first lady.

Of course, the roles that preceded that.

It adds a complexity to the race and will really pent insider -- will really pit insider politics against the more populous game of the voters deciding.

David: That has to be part of her strategy right now, to push back against that perception.

She mentioned the other day that if her name was Tommy Murphy, that people would not be objecting to her candidacy as much, suggesting, again, of course, that there is an undercurrent there.

Does she have a point there?

Ashley: I think that is not the prime point in the criticisms against her candidacy.

Again, I think this stems back to the relationship she has to the governor of the entire state and her current role.

I think, of course, we are going to talk about this, obviously being if she was victorious, this would be the first woman senator from New Jersey.

I do not think that is the primary case.

It depends on how voters will perceive it once this gets more in front of voters and the electorate writ large.

David: They make a good point.

Nobody asked Frank, for instance, if he was qualified.

He probably had as much corporate experience as Tammy Murphy does.

Ashley: Yeah, we do see in the numbers that women are more slightly likely to go for Tammy Murphy than men, but we see men and women similarly go for Andy Kim in favorability ratings.

For both of them as these two presumed front runners, they have to make up a lot of name recognition and how gender will play out throughout the campaign trail until June is something we have to wait and see.

Whether or not this argument of Tommy versus Tammy Murphy, I do not think that is the biggest question on political insiders' minds right now.

David: We keep hearing about how polls show Andy Kim with a 23-point lead.

He mentioned that again to me this week.

What polls is he talking about and how much stock should voters put in those polls?

Ashley: These are inside campaign polls that get a feel for candidates in terms of how they are looking in the race.

Maybe what messages they should be portraying throughout the campaign trail.

Obviously campaign polls are a different beast than when we talk about policy polling and nonpartisan polling.

It becomes very difficult when we are talking about a primary that usually very few voters vote in.

Trying to guess the electorate.

It depends on who they are talking to, how they are conducting the survey, who is responding to them and how many.

What kind of questions they are asking and in what order.

There are a lot of questions that sometimes we don't know with these internal polls but it certainly looks good for the candidate to get these results out into the forefront to make it look like they are in the lead and build momentum on the campaign trail.

David: This is a poll that they funded.

Does that suggest that people should take it with a grain of salt because the methodology might not be as strict as required for, say, a poll that you guys do?

Ashley: We should take any pull with a grain of salt because they are snapshots of time.

They are based on what people are thinking at the moment.

If we have all the storms outside, maybe storms on the weather are on people's' minds.

What is the person thinking about at the moment when they are talking to the interviewer or filling out the survey?

All this plays a crucial role.

That is why we watch multiple poles over time.

David: You mentioned that you had done some polling.

One has the polling showed to you?

Ashley: Be on the lookout for it.

We have definitely seen there needs to be mourned and recognition built for both of these candidates.

We still see Senator Bob Menendez completely bottoming out in his numbers.

Not a huge change from a few months back.

Six months to go seems like a long time but also a short time, especially for any election that is not on voters' radar, especially when we have 2024 on top of that.

David: Larry Hamm and Patricia Campos-Medina have to be considered the progressives in this race.

They represent these two core constituencies of the party.

She is an immigrant, Latina, labor leader, Hamm is Black and the very definition of a labor activist.

Do they provide an outlet for any disaffected voters?

If so, who would benefit from the best funded candidates from that?

Ashley: They could provide an outlet.

It would be a powerful statement about descriptive representation.

When we are talking about Bob Menendez, obviously being a strong senator with the Latino community over several decades, it could be a strong statement in terms of who they are, how they identify demographically and they could be trained to urge the parties substantively into more progressive viewpoints.

David: We have one declared candidate on the GOP side in this race.

Not a lot of interest from other Republicans.

If there was ever a shot for the GOP to win a senate seat in New Jersey after --what is it, 10 decades?

-- now would be the time, no?

Ashley: It really would be.

All eyes are on the primary right now and not to the general where we have the two parties competing.

There is a lot going on.

We have a presidential that everyone is locked into.

Even though we might know how New Jersey might go.

We have a gubernatorial right on the heels of that and that might be the greater focus from Republicans, for better or worse, in terms of who they will put up for the 2025 gubernatorial.

David: I am sure this could change but you talked about doing some recent polling.

When should we expect that, by the way?

Ashley: I would say in the next couple weeks.

A post holiday gift.

David: Nice.

Just in my birthday.

Thank you.

Ashley: There you go.

David: I am sure this could change between now and then, but what are the issues that are dominating right now and how easily could that change in the next 5, 6 months?

Ashley: I think we always know the top issue in New Jersey, as our 50 years of polling has shown, taxes or property taxes.

That is number one in New Jersey residents' parts.

Other concerns are the economy, education.

I think that will come to the forefront.

It always circles back to these issues.

You saw that in our past election cycle.

We saw that in the 2021 gubernatorial.

Pocketbook issues.

We see a lot of our politics is becoming nationalized.

I would not be surprised to hear some of these national themes on the campaign trail for the Senate primary we are talking about things like abortion and women's rights and other cultural issues.

I would not be surprised to see some of that national flair come into play once again.

David: Ashley Koning, we will talk more as we go along.

Great to see you.

Thank you for coming on.

Ashley:.

.

Anytime always great to talk to you, David.

David: That is "Chat Box."

Thanks to Larry Hamm for joining us.

Get more content, including full episodes, when you scan the QR code on your screen.

I am David Cruz.

For all the crew in downtown Newark, thank you for watching and we will see you next week.

>> Announcer: Major funding for "Chat Box with David Cruz" is provided by the members of the New Jersey education Association, making public schools great for every child.

Promotional support is provided by Insider NJ, a political intelligence network dedicated to New Jersey Politico -- political news.

Insider NJ is committed to giving serious political players an interactive forum for ideas, discussion, and insight.

Online at insiderNJ.com.

♪