- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind the Headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- The future of UT Health Sciences, tonight, on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by Dr.

Peter Buckley, chancellor of UT Health Sciences.

Thanks for being here again.

- Pleasure.

Thank you.

- And Dr.

Michael Hocker is Executive Dean of the College of Medicine at UT Health Sciences.

Thanks for being here.

- Welcome.

- Absolutely.

Along with Bill Dries, reporter with The Daily Memphian.

We'll talk a lot about certainly the big new investment in the campus and the growth, and even really the state of healthcare.

The state has a big rural healthcare initiative, all those kinds of things.

But when we talk about the building, I'm going to put out there that it's a 350-plus million dollar building.

You guys will talk about what it means, but it's not just the physical space, right?

It's not just, it's new and it's modern and it means more.

It's a commitment of the state.

It's a recruitment tool.

It's kind of going to the next generation of medical leadership and so on.

Am I right?

I'll start with you, Peter.

Is that correct?

- Yeah, absolutely.

So the building would not have happened if we hadn't been in good shape.

And we've been on a journey four and a half years since I've been last with you.

And over that time, we've recruited a number of great colleagues.

Mike's another example of that.

And the state got behind it.

So it's really a statement that the health sciences is in good shape and on the right trajectory.

It's actually $311 million that the state have given to this project.

That's the largest single investment in capital for higher ed ever in the state.

So it is exactly what you said.

It's an endorsement that what we're doing matters.

It's an endorsement of Memphis as a strong healthcare ecosystem.

And it's also an endorsement that this will be the area under Mike's leadership that will create the doctors, not just for Memphis, but for the entire state of Tennessee.

- Some logistics on the building is what?

three hundred thousand square feet.

It'll be at Madison and Dudley where longtime Memphians know where the old Baptist Memorial Hospital was that was imploded.

It's been kind of a vacant lot right there.

It'll be right in the heart of the campus.

What does it mean for you?

And you are 15 months in the job?

- Fifteen months into the job.

- We have a brand new thing to play with.

- Yeah.

- Hoping to start construction soon and what, open in 2029, 2030, I think if I have that.

- Yeah.

Our goal is to get it done by 2029.

I might back up just a bit.

You know, I look at this as an investment in the health of Tennessee.

When you look at the UT Health Sciences Center, and then you also look at the College of Medicine and we currently host our MD program, but also PA program, this is truly an interdisciplinary building where we'll bring students from all of our colleges together to learn together.

I think that's really important as a practicing physician, being able to actually work together and educate our students together in an environment, in a classroom is ideal versus trying to do that in the workplace.

But when you look at what we're doing, you know, we are producing the health workforce for the entire state of Tennessee, Memphis and beyond.

And again, when we look at the numbers, you know, roughly by 2035, we may be short somewhere between 3,500 physicians up to maybe even 6,000.

And when you - - Statewide.

- Statewide.

And when you look at the aging population of physicians in this state, it could even be higher.

So again, this building's important, not just to Memphis, but to Tennessee as we build the workforce of the future.

- A couple more numbers and I'll go to Bill.

About how many, when you say PA, that's physician assistants?

- Yes, correct.

- Yeah.

Which more and more people, you know, see and so maybe we'll get to talking about that.

But about how many students now per year, and then you're expanding your capacity by what?

- Yeah, so traditionally for our MD program for really the last 10 years, we've been stuck at 175, mainly limited by space.

This year we actually started to increase that and we'll incrementally increase that, but we'll be able to increase the medical school class by about 45% and our PA class by 100%.

- Wow.

Okay, Bill.

- This is a pretty robust area.

Healthcare is a big industry in the city here.

So this is a major shot in the arm for that, right?

- Absolutely.

Yes.

- Talk a little bit about something we hear about in higher education, and that is fewer students.

I take it when it comes to this, you're talking about people with a lot of training.

What's the flow of people into this profession like?

- Yeah, I think what you're referring to, the higher education cliff, which again, all of us in higher education, when we look at just the census of folks who could matriculate out of high school into colleges, there's a real concern that we may have more higher education institutions than we need in this country.

I think from a health profession standpoint, we're in a good place.

We continue to see increasing number of applicants.

For example, for our medical school class, we have roughly 3 to 4,000 applicants for those 175 to 200 students.

So I think we're safe from that standpoint.

When you look at the workforce needs and the opportunities and the jobs that are offered within healthcare, I think this is a safe place to be.

And, you know, we're cognizant of that, but we've seen increased enrollment for several years.

And again, part of the UT system pushes to bring more students into the UT system.

We're also working on some pipeline programs that work with our UT system undergraduate programs to really try to figure out how do we identify students earlier, get them in the pipeline if they're interested in medicine and give them opportunities to come into our colleges.

- Peter, as Eric mentioned, that plot of land, a lot of people knew for decades as Baptist Hospital.

What does it mean symbolically to have this new structure here, this new institution there?

- So you're correct.

It is in the ashes, if you like, of the original Baptist building.

And the other thing beside it that has been taken down a couple of months ago is the Holiday Inn structure as well.

And so I wanted to clarify that we'll be on the old Baptist site, not the Holiday Inn.

There's been some confusion about that.

But the other reason for saying that is when you think about that, this is going to remake that district, both the entrance to it and along that corridor, sit right beside the pharmacy building and will really represent a rebirth of that area that people knew as the Baptist building now being the College of Medicine Interdisciplinary Building that as Mike said, will then be creating the healthcare workforce for Memphis and for Tennessee.

- And what about the research mission?

Where does that go in all of this?

- Yes.

So that's a great question.

As we indicated, we were fortunate that the state provided the support for this building, but we had to make choices about how we organize ourselves.

And so not everything is in the building, clinical programs are not in the building and research programs by and large are not in the building.

So this fits in a broader capital planning master plan process that we've been engaged in that quite frankly is not just for Memphis, but also for our other campuses in Nashville, Knoxville and in Chattanooga.

So we're looking at optimizing the space that we have on campus.

So one of Mike's more research-focused departments just moved into Nash building that we renovated just about two years ago.

And then we're also looking at optimizing the space on our cancer building and our translational research building.

So this new building, although we're excited about it, it's part of a broader picture of looking at remaking that.

And certainly we will be giving a lot of attention to both having the right research space and having it as contemporary as it should be.

- All right, because while this is a major step forward, new buildings have become a thing at UT here for the last few years, right?

Kind of a remaking of the campus as people may have known it 20 years ago.

- Yes, yes.

We've been fortunate.

The state has been very supportive of our work.

And you know, to Mike's point earlier about this, the developing the workforce, a number of years ago, we opened a new dental building.

And that enabled us to increase the number of dentists training to 130 per class and also double the number of dental hygienists.

That is now playing out as part of a $53 million grant, which is a workforce development grant looking at rural areas.

And that's enabled Memphis to play this pivotal role of being the fulcrum for dentistry of then creating the dentist that will fan out across the state.

- Let me, I want to come back to the rural healthcare, but one thing your residents are at, you know, there's a robust medical community in Memphis.

You've got Regional One, you've got Methodist, you've got Baptist, you've got St.

Francis, and then other larger - VA, - VA.

- St.

Jude.

- Yes.

St.

Jude.

Yes, of course.

Of course.

So how do you work with all... Maybe this is a question for Peter.

I'm not sure.

How do you work with them all as you're expanding these residents?

You know, there've been times where people have said, "Are you going to pick and prioritize Methodist?

Are you going to prioritize Baptist?"

Or do you guys just say, "Hey, we're Sweden in this," or, "We're Switzerland.

"We are putting out residents and we have partnerships with everyone," or is it something else?

- No, I'll take first crack at that.

I think you know, new to the market it's definitely a complicated system.

But again, when we look at the number of residents we're producing, not just here in Memphis, but throughout the state, you know, Peter and I were able to look at that.

And for health science centers across the country, we're producing the third largest number of residents and fellows are those physicians who have graduated medical school, gone on to their specialty training, kind of on the job training and then, and graduating.

So again, we're seeing about 60 to 70% of those residents then stay in the committees they are.

I think each one of our relationships is unique and you know, sometimes that's specific specialties we work with those hospitals.

We've tried to maintain and support all of those relationships.

I think it's important for all of our programs.

And we have programs in every one of those institutions you just said.

We also have 50 affiliate sites within the Memphis area that we're working with.

And then when you look at our clinical training sites throughout the state, I think the number's close to 900.

So again, as UT, we represent the state and the community, not one specific institution.

We are experts in education, research, and clinical care but we do not run hospitals.

That is not our forte.

[Eric chuckling] Yeah, which is probably maybe good right now.

- Go to Peter.

- Yeah.

Just emphasize what Mike said.

Think about the richness of that.

If you're a trainee, you've got the opportunity to be at the VA, at Regional One, Metho--.

I could- - Yeah, sure.

- I could go over all of them, but each are tremendously valuable to us.

And so they make up a portfolio that's very attractive then for students and for residents.

And that's why we don't have any problem filling our residencies.

People like to come to Memphis.

They like to get the experience in multiple venues.

- Regional One is in the middle of trying to build a huge new campus where we're hoping to have Dr.

Reginald Coopwood, the CEO there, on the show in the next month or so to talk about it.

And he was on a panel and spoken to The Daily Memphian numerous times.

He's trying to raise a lot of money.

He's going to the state for money.

Are you in any sense in competition with, even if it's friendly competition, with Regional One?

- Easy no to that.

- Okay, yeah.

[chuckles] - And so couple of things.

First of all, not only are we not in competition, I personally was there cheering at 11:48 when the Shelby County Commission a number of years ago designated that $350 million to Regional One.

The facilities, something needs to be done about the facilities and we absolutely want to see something done because it's our students, it's our trainees, and it's our faculty.

And so we're cheering for that.

- One more on... Let's talk about St.

Jude because it does hold, and I don't mean to skip over Methodist and Baptist and you mentioned in the VA, but St.

Jude holds this incredibly special place in Memphis.

What kind of work are you doing with St.

Jude that people don't know about?

- Yeah.

So we work with our graduate students.

So, our students that come to fill that research pipeline.

Some of them also go to St.

Jude's.

We also have overlap research, particularly in infectious diseases and fungal diseases, really strong between St.

Jude and our College of Pharmacy.

And then also obviously in cancer.

And then also in sickle cell disease.

In fact, we won't go into the history of St.

Jude.

- Sure.

- But the history resides actually in sickle cell disease and one of the champions, one of Mike's original pediatric chair.

So, there's a longstanding relationship.

I think Jim Downing has done a fantastic job as CEO and he has really done... You can see all the progress during his time.

We're very excited about the new CEO, Charlie Roberts.

And looking forward to making that relationship stronger over time.

- Yeah, I'll go to Bill with 10 minutes left.

- At one point in the Regional One discussions, there was talk by the state, by Governor Lee, of some kind of merger with the state that might involve UT in that new campus as an academic medical center.

Is that still an option at this point?

- So, as we said, we provide all the doctors by and large for Regional One and that's from a faculty level, but also at a resident level.

So we're fully invested in that partnership.

Mike said earlier, we're really not in the hospital business and that's become clearer over time.

And then also it's important to reiterate what Mike said.

We need to have all of these relationships, and so that's important to keep all of them going.

We have supported originally early on an effort to go to the state and support.

And then Dr.

Coopwood, the following year, went to the state and we also supported that.

I don't believe that he did last year.

I don't know that for sure.

Obviously, our focus last year was on this building.

- Right.

Right.

Let's talk about rural healthcare which you mentioned earlier.

It was a big issue in the campaigns that are just over in terms of the condition of hospitals in rural areas and healthcare.

What do you see as the state of that, and what is there to be done in rural healthcare as a field?

- It's an enormous... I'll start then pass to Mike, this enormous issue.

I do think we have an opportunity through this $50 billion that the federal government provided.

And Governor Lee was able to secure the first year $207 million to get started.

That first year has done well, and Tennessee as a state has done really well.

And now the second year begins with another tranche of $210 million.

And the processes are working out programmatic grants in areas like maternal health, areas like technology.

They're not supplanting or building hospitals, but they're really looking at other ways to bridge between communities and improve access, improve prevention.

Mike, I'll pass to you.

- Yeah, I think, you know, again you know, we received a $7 million gift for the Rural Center of Excellence to help start some of that work.

When you go back to the physicians per capita, if you look at, you know, Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, Chattanooga, where the big urban areas are, you're not seeing the shortage of physicians like you are in the rural areas.

Again, as the state's medical school, you know, we have to be part of that solution.

So we're looking at programs through our residency programs, but also through medical school, getting students and residents out into those communities.

This last year we received two HRSA grants from two of our programs, one in Jackson and one in Knoxville that will essentially create a new residency program that will be based in those rural communities and around in those urban areas.

There are deserts of care out there.

And again, you know, we look at some of the statistics related to life expectancy and it's unfortunate, not just in this state, but many states that depending on your zip code, your life expectancy may change.

And again, as UT's, you know, primary medical school, but also health sciences, you know, we talk about healthy Tennessee and thriving communities and we have to be part of that solution.

I think it's complicated.

There's a lot of factors there, but we need to look at it more.

- Staying with rural, I think I read this correctly, that UTHSC, it has 67 rural clinics, something like that.

Is that correct?

I think I read it on your website.

There are a lot of clinics out there.

It's not a math test, as I warned you before.

So 60 something, and with this money, this commitment, you'll be able to expand that.

Those are all under your umbrella, right?

I mean, the clinics are, that's under you, I mean, under you as chancellor.

Are they separate affiliates?

How does that work?

- There's a range of, - Okay.

- There's a range of relationships.

So maybe somewhere our clinicians practice.

It may also be somewhere where our students train.

So, we make an affiliation amongst either of those areas.

So for instance, let me give you one example.

- Yeah, please.

- In Union City, we have a dental practice to try to address the rural dental issues.

That is entirely our practice.

The faculty member is our faculty member, the dentist, and the students and the residents are our students.

We may be somewhere else in a dental program where we're sharing.

- Okay.

Let me shift with just sort of about five minutes left here and talk about the Memphis Medical District, both as a physical space, but also there's the Memphis Medical District Collaborative, which we've had those folks on the show numerous times.

You're on the board, I believe.

- Yes.

- If you could wave a magic wand, I go to both of you on this both from a recruitment point of view, from a point of view of people who are there a lot and want to get some lunch, all the things about the Medical District, there have been many improvements, but there's still some blight and dead zones and so on.

You could wave a magic wand.

How would that Medical District area change over the next two to three years?

I'll start with Peter.

- So we were very pleased to be able to provide the land for support that the Turley Company could then build the residential units.

They've about 390 units.

We're actually, our students, our residents, our faculty, independently, of course, are the main tenants of that.

So the magic wand would really to be have more people because building a sense of community downtown is all about having people live downtown.

So that experiment is already working well.

The people that live there have access to new stores, new restaurants.

They now even can get their car charged up, there's EV chargers there.

And so you can see the community develop it.

- From your point of view, you've, again, 15 months here, you've been at lots of different places around the country.

We were talking beforehand.

What is the magic, I mean, that you would like to see?

Because I assume this affects recruitment, both of students and of faculty and staff.

- Yeah.

I couldn't agree more.

I'll piggyback on what Peter said just a little bit is, you know, we don't want to be a commuter campus where our faculty and students, you know, commute in, do their work and then go out.

You know, we want our students and faculty to live down there.

We want them to be part of it.

We need it to be safe.

We need folks to see it as something that they want to be part of.

And again, as we look at master planning and looking at our facilities, you know, making sure that they meet expectations, the newer generation, very visual swiping on their phones and they're going to look at our facilities.

And that's again why this building's really important when we look at our competitors in the Southeast.

You know, most of them have new medical schools.

And again, our facilities were built in the '60s and despite that, we have incredible faculty, students that are working here.

- Last question here to Bill.

- Just a question about practicing medicine in a big city.

There's a lot of experience to be had here that really isn't available elsewhere, correct?

- Correct.

- Yeah.

So talk a little bit about what this industry in this setting means for the cities and its growth, in terms of population, in terms of quality of life.

- So our colleague, Bill Dunnavant, has estimated that the healthcare industry is about 13% of the GDP of Memphis.

So from a technical economic point of view, it's a very significant issue.

Obviously, we've talked about the state of healthcare in general and rural healthcare, but quite frankly, the state of healthcare in Tennessee as a state is not good.

And so having an array of services and particularly having ones that work well together, and we talked about our ability to be the doctors and the clinicians at hospitals and at programs.

When you look at that, that really is the potential of the glue that kind of pulls this together for a healthcare system.

It's also not lost that we have prominent industries in this city.

It's important to have good healthcare for those employees and for the people of the city.

So having the availability, the access, and the high quality and people continuously training and staying in the environment is important for healthcare in the city.

Mike?

- No, I think, you highlighted all the important things.

Again, we want students from Tennessee to come here.

We want them to be throughout the state, but we need them to stay in this state and take care of patients.

And again, we see that in Memphis by the students we recruit, but also the residents.

- Thank you both for being here.

Congratulations on the new building.

Look forward to seeing all the progress, but that is all the time we have this week.

Thank you, Bill.

Thank you for joining us.

And we've got coming up soon, Mayor Paul Young.

We've got Paul Chandler from Memphis River Parks, A.C.

Wharton, former mayor, who's working with some of the violence intervention programs that people have been talking about in Memphis.

We have that coming up as well as the new CBU president.

If you miss Steve Mulroy, DA, that was a week or two ago, and you can get that at wknow.org, YouTube, or The Daily Memphian, or you can download full episodes of the show as podcasts wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks very much, and we'll see you next week.

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