♪♪♪ male announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by the Cleone Peterson Eccles Endowment Fund.

Jason Perry: Tonight on "The Hinckley Report" Utah's governor officially signs hundreds of bills into law as experts watch for possible vetoes, major shakeups within the Utah Republican Party could impact future elections, and as the country begins to emerge from the Covid-19 pandemic leaders continue to work toward a new normal.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Jason: Good evening and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week, we have Damon Cann, professor of political science at Utah State University and mayor of North Logan.

Amy Donaldson, executive producer of podcasts at KSL, and Heidi Hatch, anchor and reporter with KUTV.

So glad to be with you all this evening.

Never a slow week in politics and we have a lot to get to tonight.

I want to start with you, Heidi, on what's happening in the governor's office.

After the end of the legislative session the governor has 20 days to sign or veto or I guess technically let them go into effect without a signature.

And I think it's interesting as we started the session there was a little threat out there of sorts the governor said I may veto some of your bills.

Are we seeing that?

Are there any bills on the table he may just decided to veto?

Heidi Hatch: Well, I think a lot of people are watching this closely.

I think there was 500 bills in all.

There's been 300-some odd signed.

So, a lot of people are watching closely and the one that people keep asking about is whether or not he's going to sign the masked mandate and he said, yes, I am.

Even though he hasn't, I think he's kinda stringing everyone along with that until the last second.

There is some question about the funding for the Inland Port, possibly if that would happen.

I think there's a couple others that people are like is he, is he not going to sign?

But I guess that's the big surprise.

I felt like there was definitely going to be vetoes though when he made his address because he said I'm going to veto and it's not gonna be personal.

So, is it not going to be personal?

Is he going to use that political capital?

I don't know yet.

It's gonna be interesting.

Jason: I guess that's the question, Amy, because I want to get to a couple of those potentials, but did he use his political capital that we didn't see and that's why there are no vetoes on the table?

Talk about what happened there.

Amy Donaldson: That was my feeling.

I think everyone saw that statement a little differently.

You kinda referred to it as sort of a threat, but I think it was mostly him saying like I'm a new governor, don't treat me, just because I served in the old administration don't treat me like, you know, things are just the same.

I plan to step up my scrutiny of policies that come through here.

And so, I took it as he was going to do more front end negotiating, right?

Like it's sort of like in the legal profession, if a trial lawyer is willing to take a case to trial they have a lot more clout when it comes to negotiating a plea agreement.

So, it doesn't necessarily mean he's gonna be vetoing more bills.

I think the fact that he is willing to do that and to take those hits politically make people more willing to come in and negotiate.

And I think you saw some front end negotiation on some bills.

Jason: We definitely did.

Damon, when you look historically through the political scientists lens, you have the elected official lens also but talk about the impact of this veto in the governor's office and that relationship with the legislature 'cause you go back to governors, like Governor Herbert, who it wasn't often but sometimes did veto a few pieces of legislation, and sometimes those bills he really was opposed but also there was a signal that there's a clear separation here and the governor has a unique set of powers.

Damon Cann: Yeah, absolutely.

You know the governor wants to be able to work effectively with the legislature and I think Governor Cox kind of, you know, signaled that he might be a little more assertive.

And I think used that statement early on in the legislative session that he might use the veto more than his predecessors to encourage the legislature to sit down with him and negotiate and engage with the governor and the legislative process in the way that he hadn't before.

And that's been very effective and the governor has had a lot of high profile sit downs on a variety of different issues: the transgender people in girls' sports, we had the Count My Vote compromise, and a number of things that came up.

And I think because of what he had said that people were willing to sit down and have negotiations with him, listen to the governor as a player and legislative process.

Jason: It may have helped also that he is a former colleague there, knows how to work that system in the legislature.

Can we get to a couple-- maybe two of these bills that Heidi mentioned, Amy, 'cause they may have an impact.

So, there's the mask but I want to start with the Inland Port because there's a group that actually came forward just this week with a bunch of signatures saying this is the one that they want them-- that wants the governor to veto.

What is in that particular bill that is causing some concern?

Amy: You know I'm not as familiar with that bill.

I know the concerns have-- they just they have focused on the funding, and they focused on the pollution, and the impact on those communities, which are already disadvantaged communities.

And so, I think they're the same concerns coming up in a different maybe a more focused way, but I don't see that being vetoed.

Jason: Expanded powers are interesting for this Inland Port as Amy just mentioned.

And on the Endgame Bill that you were referring to, Heidi.

So, this is April 10th the masks go away.

Some of the restrictions starting to get lifted.

Is your sense it sounds like governors going to sign that bill, is all in on this at least his policy?

Heidi: At least from what he said yesterday it sounds like he's gonna sign it and I don't know that he's signing it because he wants to sign it, but he also knows if he doesn't sign it they could come quickly, and then override him, and then by April 10th it would still happen anyways.

I also think that the mask mandates not going away on April 10th.

I think that it's a message bill that's getting sent out but if you look at Texas, we have Target stores, Kroger stores saying you still have to wear 'em.

Here in Utah Harman's has already said and I can guarantee you April 9th Salt Lake City and Salt Lake County are going to make sure that mask mandate stays in place, possibly other governments.

So, I think there will be an easing in some places but just as quickly the mask mandates will be put in by local governments and our kids are gonna be wearing them till the recess bell rings on the very last day.

It's still there.

Jason: Definitely still gonna be there.

Let's talk about what's happening with the Republican Party 'cause a lot of these things have tentacles directly into the policy and what might be a divided party a little bit.

'Cause, Damon, this week, it's been interesting, Derek Brown, the current chair of the Utah Republican Party publicly said he is not going to run for a second term.

What does that mean and why?

Damon: Yeah, that's a great question.

Derek Brown has been incredible as a figure who can unite the Republican Party.

He has a lot of allies in different segments and a lot of support both from people who are more heart or right wing as well as people who are more centrist.

And just his personality and nature has made him incredibly successful in these two years that he's been chair of the Republican Party.

I think it's gonna be tough for the Republicans to find someone who brings all of those same skills, connections, and assets for that position.

And there's a real potential here for backsliding right back into the conflict and disunity that we saw in the Republican Party just a couple short years ago.

Amy: And I think it's because the Republican Party is at a crossroads, nationally and locally.

And that is, you know, what is our goal?

What do, you know, who are we trying to include?

Who, you know, there's this, you know, with the re upping of S.B.

54, and should we get rid of signatures or do we go through conventions?

Or, you know, I think there's a real identity crisis and a power struggle and you have people who want the party to be smaller, and more focused, and you have people who want to make a bigger, as they say a bigger tent and invite people in.

And I know a lot of people, especially immigrants, who would be Republican.

That is their philosophical, you know, leaning but right now don't feel particularly welcome.

And I think what will be interesting is if we-- if they pick a state chair who is welcoming to diversity and says hey, we want to get bigger and more broad and not be narrower in our focus.

You'll see it I think a continuation or an expansion of what Derek brought to the table, but there's a real possibility and some real power players I think, but it's really about what's the identity the party going to be going forward and who who drives that?

Jason: Go ahead, Heidi.

Heidi: I was going to say the identity crisis I think is interesting because sometimes you only see it in one portion of the party where a lot of times, we've been seeing on the left kinda Bernie and Biden, the big divide there, but Republicans if you look at our Senators, I think there's a big divide between where Lee and Romney vote, and how people feel their support is at this point, and then if you look at the gubernatorial race, we had very qualified candidates, but there was a big range going from Greg Hughes on the other end to Jon Huntsman.

And when you look at that there really is a struggle within the party of which direction when they go, can we really be the big tent and put our arms around all of them?

Or do we pick and choose if you can use the signature or how you get on the ballot?

And I think whoever has to take the lead on that, it's not an easy job because I don't think anyone really knows who they want to be right now.

Jason: Mmhm.

Damon, to these really great points, I'm curious about how it goes forward with this next person because what we saw, and you gave a really good example right there, but even a couple of weeks ago, Derek Brown had to send out a statement saying, we know Mitt Romney voted one way.

We know Mike Lee voted the completely opposite way, but our party is big enough for both of these.

I mean did he find the right line there?

This is gonna be a hard one to keep going.

Damon: No, I think he struck exactly the right balance.

The Republican Party for several years up until this last election was hemorrhaging voters.

The conflict within the Utah Republican Party was driving people out.

And I think that Mr. Brown recognized the importance of trying to keep as many people on the Republican ship as possible because when people are jumping off the party's ship it's not good for the party's long term wellbeing.

Jason: Even with a super majority have issues.

Heidi: It's a big tent but do you want to be in the sleeper at that big tent with all those people fighting?

I don't know.

Amy: But I think locally you do have a group of conservatives who kinda want to form their own party.

You had that United Utah Party and then you have Evan McMullin leading a group, saying, let's do, you know, sort of a never Trumper version of the Republican Party.

And I just keep searching for like where's that traditional conservative Republican Party and does it still exist in enough quantity, I guess, that it's viable?

And that's-- I think it will be interesting to see what happens in the next decade with both parties.

Jason: Before I leave this, Damon, I just-- I'm just curious about one thing.

We see the version of that Senate Bill 54 to undo that which is the signature gathering bill.

Every session with-- Derek has been the one that's been tryin' to help take care of that particular bill.

What's gonna happen in the future?

Can speculate about that?

Is going to be stronger the advocates who are left next year, we gonna keep seeing that bill tryin' to get back to the more traditional way that the only way to get on the ballot is through a caucus convenient system?

Damon: I think we will continue to see that push for a few more years.

At some point it's going to go away and it will happen in one of two ways.

First of all, there are more and more people that get elected in Utah, both in the state legislature and for our federal office, our governor's office that will credit signature gathering with their ability to compete and win in elections to protect themselves against challenges that could come through the caucus system and knock them out without a primary election.

As that number grows there will be less and less support for these initiatives.

If that doesn't happen though there's another possibility and that is that perhaps advocates for undoing the signature path reform will win at some point in the next couple of years, but if that happens there is still clear majorities in the population in Utah who want to participate in primary elections and directly to be able to participate in choosing their party's nominee.

And at the moment, where we seen the signature go away, we'll see an initiative come forward and we'll see it when just as the Count My Vote program was designed.

It was going to do had it not been for the S.B.

54 compromise that stepped in and created these two tracks.

Amy: I do we think we have to be aware of the limitation-- like the limits that they're placing on that signature gathering.

Like Teuscher's Bill that doesn't allow you to use paid people and they have to wear a tag saying with that.

I just want, I mean, it sounds good and interesting.

I want you to remember though that sometimes you put in place what feels like a good and, you know, making it more democratic I guess or more and more accessible and what you really do then is drive people out who don't have money.

So, there's always-- you have to ask yourself what are the unintended consequences?

Who's actually going to be impacted by this?

If I want to run for office and I work two jobs and I have a family, am I gonna have to count on the party to help me hire people to go out and collect signatures or do I have time to rally those?

It's an incredibly time consuming thing to run for office.

Are they taking access to some people-- taking access away from some people when they make some of these conditions or make it narrower, harder to collect those signatures?

Jason: This is such a good point, Heidi, and is something you brought up just a moment ago as well because we're seeing efforts on the federal level and on the state level impacting how we vote, how we participate, and particularly even to this one that Amy was just talking about.

How the initiative referendum process works and this from our Representative Teuscher here is exactly right.

So this bill, I'm just hoping to get to for just a second, was brought out because some in our legislature, and I think Jerry Stevenson at one point said there are cantankerous individuals from outside the state of Utah that are coming into the state of Utah with a lot of money trying to, you know, buy signatures from people and impacting state policy.

Seems to be a concern they had which is why this change was passed.

Heidi: Yeah, it's definitely a concern and one that I think takes a lot of understanding and looking at the different options of what's going to happen but I do hope that they keep the signature gathering out there.

Sometimes the bar seems high though that might be one thing that we want to look at.

When we're looking at the gubernatorial race and how many signatures they had to get and then how many people were in there and thinkin' about how many actual voters were out there and not getting the double signatures.

It's certainly something that we have to think about.

Outside money is a big issue when we look at these elections too, you know, because money makes the world go around.

It can get you the signature.

So, I think it's something we need to look carefully at and we don't want to have one of those bills signed that ends up getting sent back or repealed because we realized that it makes even a bigger mess.

Jason: Damon, tell us how this is going to work in practice because, you know, there's a lot of money out there when it comes to signature, particularly on these initiatives.

I mean I was hearing seven plus dollars per signature or something like that.

Heidi: A lot of money.

Amy: Let's be clear, we're not paying the person signing that they're paying the person to collect this.

Jason: Exactly which is what this particular bill is trying to get to and, you know, for some are talking about when it comes to these initiatives referendums 'cause that's where this one specifically led.

It becomes less about the policy and more just about the money behind the ability to get the signatures.

Damon: Yeah, you know, I think that the reform here is very well intentioned.

And I--from the signature gathering campaigns that I had a good vantage point on, most signature gatherers have reported fairly even and constant number of signatures across the hours that they work.

You're comparing evening to evening.

So, I don't think we're gonna see a big difference in what the costs of gathering signatures look like.

They'll just scour scale the hourly wage to make it look like whatever the cost per signature was.

The bigger question is what will a name badge do if someone you don't know shows up at your door.

Will you treat them differently if they have a name badge on that says they're representing some particular group?

And I think there's a pretty easy way to get around that as well.

You just say citizens in favor of good government is the name of the group you represent as opposed to people in favor of slaughtering puppies.

And suddenly, I don't know that the name badge makes an awful lot of difference when people are created in the way they are.

Amy: I do think the name badge gives people, as a woman who answers the door and oftentimes no one else's home, I do have a lot of dogs so that's helpful, but it does give you something to Google.

You know, you can look something up.

I'm not opposed to them identifying themselves in a really, you know, out, you know I wanna know who's coming, what they're after.

I mean for me, it's just more a matter of people being able to decide do they wanna sign or be a part of something or not.

I really think this signature, the paying the signature gatherers is a bigger issue and I agree it's a well intentioned bill.

I think it might have unintended consequences for groups that, you know, don't have the political power or connection that some of them-- some of these others.

Heidi: Maybe don't knock on my door.

Let's stick with one good thing from the pandemic where we let people sign up online and send me a text.

And if I wanna sign my signature I will electronically and otherwise I'll delete your text from me or something.

It might be an option to look at.

Jason: One more thing before we leave elections.

Amy: If you have that technology.

A lot of people who don't have that technology.

Jason: True.

Before we leave the elections, Damon, I just want to get one sense from you because you have some experience with Ranked-choice voting.

There's a piece of legislation that may impact how often that is utilized, at least some more cities.

Maybe put on your hat as the mayor of North Logan and talk about that particular provision because that could dramatically impact elections in the state of Utah going forward.

Damon: Yes, so in municipal elections this coming cycle are required by act of the state legislatures to be primarily by mail.

And for a lot of communities that don't have optical scanners and experience with printing and mailing ballots, this is getting significantly increase the cost of administering elections.

So one advantage of Ranked-choice voting is that because people say their first choice followed by their second choice, third choice, fourth choice.

You only have to hold one election on general election day, and then if your first choice candidate gets eliminated, your vote gets reallocated to your second choice candidate.

So, we had two cities, Vineyard and Hasten, that did this in the 2019 municipal election cycle.

And it was very popular with voters.

So, I think it's over 75% of voters in those cities said they would like to be able to vote that way again.

So, with the cost savings, the expanded availability of this mechanism, and some advantages in terms of saving time for voters and decreasing the cost of running an election, because you don't have to do a primary and a general for the candidates.

I think we'll see a number of cities across Utah take a good hard look at Ranked-choice voting.

I know my city, North Logan, is looking carefully at this right now and we've got until May 10th for cities to declare their intent as to whether they will or won't use it.

Vote for a lot more discussion in the public eye about how to do Ranked-choice voting because the cities that do it are going to be trying to reach out and help people to understand how to use their ballots.

Heidi: I definitely think there would be an education component that would be needed for people to do it but I think that after we saw the last Salt Lake City mayoral race and also the gubernatorial race.

When you saw so many good choices out there and it's so close I think that brought up the idea of, you know, would this have given more people time to look at the issues and maybe vote that one time and maybe the person who won had a larger majority of that.

So, I think there's a couple of races where people have said, okay, maybe finally here in the state of Utah, it might be a good idea to look at.

Jason: So, Amy, it's such an interesting point because in the way it's set up right now you start looking at this from these primaries, for example.

You have someone moving forward that got, you know, 30% of the vote, which, you know, which might be the same as 70% of people voted someone else, but if this comes together you do find some consensus maybe it's the number two choice, but.

Amy: I also think that it's helpful because there are a lot of people who are not aware of when primaries are.

You have a lot of people who are unaware that there's an election happening and you know as much as we live in this universe so we hear it all the time, other people are, you know, doing their jobs and taking care of their families and they and I think you'd see higher engagement if it was a one shot and the Ranked-choice is really popular for a reason.

And it's really popular with people who are not heavily invested in the political system as it exists.

Jason: So, Heidi, I want to spend just a minute-- go ahead, Damon.

Damon: I was just gonna say in general elections or presidential elections things like that you don't usually see a big return to voting by mail, but something Amy said just made me think of this the research shows that in municipal elections voting by mail really does increase participation simply because of ballots showing up in your mailbox.

Its a great way to remind people that there's an election going on.

Jason: Let's switch gears for just a moment because a lot has been happening when it comes to the Covid-19 vaccine.

So, Heidi, let's take just a second to see what the state of Utah is doing.

Governor Cox just yesterday announced that he's gonna expand all eligible Utahns by next week on the 24th.

Heidi: March 24th, so people can start signing up right now.

It's been interesting that they've been ahead of their predictions all the way through.

So, anyone 16 and older can start getting those vaccines.

The question is are we getting much better at getting these vaccines given out or are there more people who are choosing not to get the vaccine, therefore, there's more slots open?

And they wanna make sure that those slots are filled.

It'll be difficult to say 'til we finally get done with all of the vaccines, but I think a lot of people are happy they do have that opportunity to sign up.

The question is why those dates are kinda moving up so quickly at this point.

Amy: Well, I suspect the dates are somewhat moving up because of the April 10th deadline that looms, right?

I think part of the reason that Governor Cox and I haven't talked to him about this but that he hasn't signed that bill is because it is-- it feels like a really terrible thing to say we're gonna remove the masked mandate when service workers and people working gas stations and grocery stores are not able to get the vaccine.

I have a daughter who works in that universe, right?

And she actually has a health problem.

So she qualified to get it earlier thankfully, but, you know, they've endured a ton of abuse almost on a daily basis and a lot of businesses have said the masked mandate it's not enforced so it's not like that it's-- that's the power in it.

The power in it is it gives them cover so that people don't constantly challenge them.

But even with the state wide mandate, even with, you know, all this going on you still have those service workers.

These are people who are making minimum wage or around minimum wage, who are enduring daily abuse, and so I think some of the moving up-- I have been trying to help people.

I try to help some of my friends who don't have access to technology or the knowledge of how to sign up.

And the spots are filled and I had a friend who was at Riverton yesterday with 100 people in line to get their shots.

I think there is a real desire to allow people, where they can to make appointments because April 10th this mandate goes away.

Like we said a lot of things are going to stay the same but I think that friction will increase and I think people are nervous about, you know, having more confrontations, having more issues when they don't have the opportunity to get the vaccine.

Heidi: And I think the confrontation part is something nobody is looking forward to because I think that once there's no mandate out there, there's probably going to be a lot of pointing fingers between people just want us all to be nice.

We don't want to hate our neighbors.

Jason: Damon, I just wanna end in the last minute that we have here because there is the political side of this as well as we're dealing with the health side, but the politicians are trying to talk about how to get the economy going again.

It's interesting as you see, Angela Dunn, for example, the state talking about Utah specifically.

She says we need herd immunity at 70%, but about 30% of the state of Utah is under 18, which means that this is going to linger for a while.

So how are our elected officials threading this when they're trying to say I want that fourth of July parade or I wanna start having this barbecues back by summer?

Damon: Yeah, it's a tricky thing.

I think a lot of Republicans in the state legislature are looking at their primary electorate and feeling some pressure to get the masked mandate off.

We know that another reason is we know that kids are less susceptible to severe disease, although some of the variance may change that a little bit and it's a difficult needle to thread.

You know the governor has taken a lot of heat over being willing to sign this.

But on the flip side he entered these negotiations with the legislature in good faith, brokered a compromise.

And one of the things that I think a lot of people liked about Governor Cox in the primary election was that he was very pragmatic.

He made a very pragmatic choice here to extend the mandate as long as he could as opposed to ending it earlier but making a statement and we'll see how folks react to the governor after.

Jason: We'll watch this one closely 'cause it certainly impacts us and so much unknown going into the next couple of months.

Thank you for your great insights this evening on some very important topics.

And thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

The show is also available as a podcast on PBSUtah.org/HinckleyReport or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

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