♪♪♪ male announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by the Cleone P. Eccles Endowment Fund.

Jason Perry: Tonight on "The Hinckley Report" the nation witnesses a historic inauguration and voters indicate their top priorities for federal and state leaders.

The legislature meets in a closed Capitol building amid a pandemic and worries of civil unrest.

And Utah's new governor outlines a plan for his first 500 days in office.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Jason: Good evening and welcome to "The Hinckley Report" I'm Jason Perry, director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week, we have Emily Means, political reporter with KUER; Chris Bleak, lobbyist with RRJ Consulting; and Scott Howell, former Utah Senate minority leader.

Thank you for being with us tonight.

Just so many interesting things to get to.

I wanna start with you, Scott, though.

We had a transition of power into the White House with our new president, Joe Biden.

You were part of the campaign.

You were part of the transition.

Talk about that event through the Utah-- through the Utah eyes.

What are we going to see from President Biden as Utahns?

Scott Howell: Well, first of all it was historical because instead of a field of people you had a field of flags and it really set the tone for what the president was wanting to do.

And I think through the lens of Utahns.

Probably the person that stole the show was Amanda Gorman.

Her poem about climbing the hill I think touched the heart of every single Utahn.

My son Texted Me and said "Dad, I think I'm more general conference."

And I thought that was kind of an interesting comment, but I think the president had said from day one as short of two weeks ago, we had a conference call with the Biden team and with those involved.

And they said Covid-19, Covid-19, don't even approach us about anything else unless you have a solution and a better plan.

So I think from the lens of Utahns we're going to see an individual that won't be tweeting at three in the morning, won't be sending out messages, but someone who's thoughtful and caring and will want to have unity.

Now he realizes that there are people-- 70 million-- that didn't vote for him.

But he also realizes that we can come together and I think on the pandemic, making that the number one issue is probably as important as anything and I think that's what Utahns will want to see.

Because once we get back to our normal lives is what we call quote normal I'd say, things will be better for everyone.

But you know we've learned a lot from the pandemic too.

We've learned about being mobile.

We've learned about working not in an office.

We've learned about how we can communicate.

So there's a lot of things that the president will focus on but that is going to be top of the list.

Jason: I want to get to a couple of those items but Chris, one interesting thing visually from it was our entire delegation was there, even Congressman McAdams, former Congressman McAdams was was there as well.

This is a group of people that have not-- were not really supportive and you know talk-- some of them even talking about the election being stolen itself, but they were all there.

Talk about this symbolic nature of their attendance and particularly given the lens that even Burgess Owens wrote a letter saying I'm going to work with the administration.

Chris Bleak: Well, it's-- I think thats the right thing to do and I'm glad that they did that.

I wish some of those actions would have been reflected earlier, but it's a positive sign, a positive trend.

It's going to be a challenge.

I mean they're-- inaugurations generally bring people together.

There is a honeymoon period so to speak but this is-- this is a difficult time and one that's going to require a great deal of deft touch that I think is, you know, that President Biden certainly has and it'll be interesting, but he's going to have some pull from his different factions and interest groups.

Those that want to him to move in a more progressive direction.

Those that say more incremental.

And so it will be interesting to see how much he reaches out, how he goes about doing that, what kind of personal touch he puts on it.

And I think that people should be open to receiving that and working with him and working with his administration as he's willing to find common ground and work with others.

Jason: So I'm curious about this, Emily, 'cause you're covering so many of these stories so well.

I'm curious what you're hearing because even even as we heard from both sides of the aisle really here today people, they're all talking about unity.

They're talking about coming together, bipartisanship.

What do you think that means now from the people you're interviewing?

'Cause I know you're talking to legislators everyday too.

What are people thinking that means?

Emily Means: Well, I think it's a good question and something that we'll just really have to see what that even looks like.

I want to go back to Representative Burgess Owens and Chris Stewart, who both voted not to confirm those electoral college votes.

So that particular message from Burgess Owens that he will work with the Biden administration towards common goals or whatever, some things that I'm seeing is that maybe that rings a little bit hollow and, you know, I was just a couple of weeks ago that we saw the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, which was largely spurred by this idea that the election was stolen.

So I don't know what unity looks like.

I don't know that we can move past what happened just a couple of weeks ago so quickly.

And I think another thing that I'm seeing is that it can't all be on Biden's shoulders to do that.

Though I do think-- I think Scott you mentioned this that Biden has kind of been seen as one who will unify the country but, you know, it kinda takes two to tango.

So I'm interested to see how the Republicans and Democrats come together.

And you know what their respective roles will be in that.

Chris: I read a quote, don't know who said I apologize, they made the point that it's exhausting to debate reality.

It's energizing to debate policy.

And so I hope that is what we can see.

I think that a broad conflict of ideas is appropriate.

I don't expect, you know, Senator Lee just to say Oh, well, we'll just do this because you know Joe Biden wants to do it or Chuck Schumer wants to do it.

I think it's appropriate that they debate policy.

The question is can they find a place to land and pass something that's impactful to the American public and that's where I think the debates and the frustration is really growing is Congress has to act.

And I don't at some level I don't even care what it is anymore.

Let's find a way for them to act and move policy forward for the country and for the good of Americans.

Jason: When you get to this policy, Scott, I have to ask because there's a Utah flavor they're looking for in President Biden and just give us the take on the fact that on the very first day one of the exact-- couple of the executive orders get to some issues that are top of mind for Utah's when it comes to Bears Ears for example, the oil and gas drilling leases also.

Talk about that.

Scott: Well, I will talk about that.

I want to make a point with Emily said.

Look, they're not going to go in and sing Kumbaya.

When you talk about civil discord, you can also have civil dialogue and what Chris said is very appropriate.

They have ability and I've been in those positions, where you have to sit down and listen.

And there's a big difference between tweeting out insurrection and tweeting out these messages of battle and contentious versus someone who can get in a room and be able to sit down and have adult conversations.

And it should be no surprise to Utahns.

Joe had said this from the beginning.

We know it's a fact.

They were going to talk about Bears Ears and about the the realignment of some of the boundaries, at least look into it, that's what it says.

And for me that's not a surprise for everybody.

And I don't know who didn't get that but he said that every time he's been up there as one of them, one of his initiatives.

I think on the other issues that we'll see that could hit home to Utah is the whole notion of education.

He has always said that education is the driver that will equalize everyone and opportunities in their life.

And so I think from that perspective, Utahns should be happy after hearing Governor Cox the other day put education at the top of the list.

So I think there's a lot of synergy.

And I'll tell ya on Bears Ears, if I was Spencer Cox, I would enlist Gary Herbert to be one of these individuals that will start to work to come up with a solution.

Year after year after year, we go back and we say okay, the boundaries are here.

They're going to do this.

We got to get President Ness involved.

We've got to get the whole nation.

The Navajo nation involved.

And it needs to be this table where people are coming together and saying what is best for everyone?

And I know Mike Noel met Phil Lyman and I know they sometimes have perceived of being these people that you just can't make any progress with.

My experience in working with them, if you sit down and have a rational conversation, they'll at least listen.

And so, I think the best thing Spencer could do as I said a minute ago is enlist Gary and gets them to go back there and sit down and have a rational conversation and make this issue go away.

'Cause there's no use doing it, Chris, right?

Chris: I agree 100%.

I think that's the right message that there is.

We looked back at the Washington County lands build at Senator Bennett and Representative Matheson did a number of years ago.

We don't hear the talk and the debate around that for a couple of reasons.

One it was negotiated with a lot of different players at the table and number two it was passed into law.

And so, if we want to do executive actions and just govern that way then we'll just move presidency to presidency, administration to administration, and we'll just change that.

That's not good for anybody.

So yeah, I do agree, I think that those players down there want to be involved and if the administration will bring them to the table, I think things can be solved and then we can put it to bed and stop stop arguing about it.

Jason: Okay, go ahead, Emily.

Emily: Yeah, I did wanna mention, I mean to be fair President Trump undid Obama's Bears Ears designation through executive order and Utah leaders applauded that.

So I know there is this ongoing tension between Utah and the federal government and executive orders are not the ideal way, we'd like to see things done, but sometimes, you know, I guess, if it's the right thing for state leaders, it seems to be all right, but Scott, to your point, I think it's important who is sitting at the table when they're discussing these monuments and these public lands issues.

President Biden has appointed Deb Holland, the first indigenous Secretary of the Interior.

And so I think that having her here and discussing these issues will kind of-- changes the dynamic a little bit.

Scott: Well, that's a good point, Emily.

Although she calls herself a 25 year or a 25 generation New-Mexican before she puts the connotation of indigenous but I think you're absolutely right that having a leader like that will make a difference in what we're going to do 'cause from what I've seen of her, and I don't know her, she is pretty much engaging and wants to work together and create win-wins.

Jason: Let's talk about the win-win for a second if something you mentioned a second ago, Scott, but Chris, talk about this point.

We recently, the Hinckley Institute of Politics with the Deseret News just completed a poll and one of the questions was about what Utahns think the number one priority should be for President Biden and without question 40% of Utahns said it's the vaccine distribution.

Alright, this is the one thing that Utahns, the other ones are pretty far seconds.

This is the number one thing.

How important is it for President Biden in your mind to get this one right and what does that mean for the rest of his agenda?

Chris: Yeah, I mean, right or wrong despite, you know, the struggles and challenges that have been left in his lap.

It is the area that's going to define his presidency.

If we can't get the vaccine fixed and rolled out and into people's arms, then it's going to be a disaster and we're going to continue to see the problems that we've seen.

And so that is absolutely priority number one and I hope that he can because I think it's in the best interest of all of us as Americans, from an economic standpoint, from a health standpoint, from just the well being of our children being in school.

I mean, we're all looking forward to being back to normal whatever that means.

And so absolutely I want 'em to get it right and I think everybody does and he needs to get it right in order for this country to thrive.

Jason: Some, Scott, have set has suggested, you know, and I think it's true that this is the unifying message.

If you want to talk about what that is is this is a shared concern for everyone's-- every political party said this.

So talk through your lens as an advisor to the president also in so many ways, how he should be advancing that cause and Utah in the country and how that might bring some of our own delegation little closer to him.

Scott: Well, the first thing that he did was he brought Dr. Fauci back and Dr. Fauci made a great comment.

He says it's great to be in an administration where I'm told if you don't know the answer make somethin' up.

Biden said, if you don't know the answer say I don't know the answer and be that clear.

And I think you've seen with Jen Psaki, the Press Secretary now how frank they're going to be in this and the president does have a plan.

A million shots a day and getting 100 million doses out in the first 100 days, but there's some underlying things on there and Chris alluded to this with regards to wearing a mask.

Some of the things we need to do as citizens of this country in order to stop the spread and you hear time and time again, just that simple thing of washing your hands and wearing a mask can help delay that but I'm thrilled that the president believes and understands that we've gotta get our kids back into the classroom.

That to me sends a message to everyone that he understands the power of education.

And Chris is exactly right that if we don't do this right that will be the demarcation of oh he failed at the very beginning.

Jason: I want to get to some state politics for a second but Emily just one more on our federal on the federal side, because what this change in having a new president, President Biden, I'm curious how this is going to change the interactions and really the approval numbers for our own delegation.

Again using The Desert News poll we just did I just wanna throw out a couple of numbers really quick and talk about how these two--our two senators are going to play in this administration.

Senator Mike Lee, 45% approval in the state, 41% disapproval, but of course I have to mention with Republicans, he's at 69% totally fine with his own party, but Mitt Romney as a 50% approval, but he's mostly doing well with everyone but his own party.

All right talk about the dynamics for both of those two-- those two players on the national stage.

Emily: I think that Mitt Romney has really stood out, you know, over these past four years as someone who will speak out against the leader of his own party, right?

We haven't seen that from a ton of Republicans during Trump's administration, but I think you know I was tuning into the show last week and someone mentioned that Mitt Romney is really truly a conservative.

He just was not a Trump fan.

So, I'm interested to see how he will respond to some of Biden's policies.

Although, you know, Biden is a pretty moderate Democrat.

He's not wildly progressive.

So that'll be interesting and maybe Romney will come back up as someone who has perhaps more accepted by his Republican colleagues and Republican constituents now that he is kind of playing that role with the Democratic President.

So I'm not quite sure about Michael.

I would be interested to hear how Scott or Chris thinks Mike Lee will interact with Biden.

Chris: Yeah, you know, I think it'll be interesting to see.

I mean Mike, the interesting thing about Senator Lee, Senator Lee really does want to see the Senate function.

I know that he cares about big ideas.

I know that he cares about working policy the right way.

So I have heard him talk about him being hopeful that a 50-50 senate allows for regular order, allows for the committee process to work.

And I think he truly means that and believes that.

Now with that being said Mike is a conservative, there's no question about that, and he's going to come from with that lens, but he has shown, I mean, you've worked with him.

I've worked with him.

He's shown that he's willing to be pragmatic and thoughtful about big ideas.

And so I'm hopeful that he'll continue that way, but he's got the-- I mean, if I want-- if I had those numbers going into my election, I would be happy.

You know more likely than not there's going to be a little bit of a whip slaw, if you will from-- towards the Republicans.

And so Mike's probably in a good spot there, but has some work to do.

Mitt, he doesn't even have to worry about it.

He didn't have to run for reelection for a long time.

Lots of time for those numbers to move up and down so.

Jason: For sure.

Let's get to some of our local elected officials.

I wanna start with the governor, Governor Cox.

Scott, we got the state of the state last night, alright.

Any key takeaways from his first speech?

It was short because he's trying to keep people safe and minimize the time together.

Any key takeaways from that speech?

Scott: Well, I really appreciate the shortness in that I compare him to Bill Clinton, who always took more than double the time on everything he did.

And I love Bill, don't get me wrong, but I thought Spencer sent a message again that we have to be careful.

We have to be serious.

There is one thing that's very puzzling to me when he said, I'm your friend, but I'm gonna veto a lot of your bills.

I-- if someone-- if I was in the legislature-- which I was-- I would say how many crappy bills do I have that you're already on the list?

And I haven't gone through the bills.

Probably Chris has gone through a lot more and Emily has but there must be a lot of bad bills up there before-- for him to fire that warning shot across the bow and then I love Stewart Adams.

Well, you know, we're all good friends and that's just part of the process.

Dang, that wasn't part of the process when I was there.

You know, if Mike Lovett or John or Norm Banger had said that in the opening remark I would've gone, am I doomed?

Should I go down right now and say is this over so.

Jason: Emily, talk about that.

You are covering the speech.

I know you were there 'cause that is something that seems to stand out.

There's a call for unity and some of the top issues, but wow, that's a little bit of a shot from one of his former colleagues, right?

Used to be a member.

Emily: Yeah, that was really curious to me as well.

Like oh man, what's comin' up that's so bad?

And he also said specifically that he might veto more bills than his predecessors had.

So that was interesting to me because, you know, Governor Gary Herbert's relationship with the legislature.

They were always butting heads.

And I don't know how many bills Herbert vetoed but Spencer Cox is going to veto more than that?

I thought that it was a weird way to kind of set up his relationship with the legislature going forward, but you know, we've heard a lot of the same sorts of things that Spencer Cox mentioned on the campaign trail.

He talked about unity like we've mentioned, a huge theme of his during the campaign and over the past few weeks.

Talked about education, talked about getting through the pandemic.

So I feel like I didn't hear much that was new from Spencer Cox but definitely I appreciated his brevity in his little 15 minute speech.

Jason: So talk about this in perspective, Chris, I wanna hear you former Chief of Staff to the Speaker of the House was the position you held, former legislator, does it-- when that's going to get a speech like this I mean are they worried or are they scared?

Are they just like, oh yeah, this is-- it's go time?

Chris: No, they're not.

I think it was a great speech.

I think he did a number of things really well.

I loved his talk about equity and education and the way he compared that using the graphite rod and-- versus a stick and string.

I thought he weaved some really beautiful analogies in there and I give him credit for that.

At the end of the day, governors have not typically vetoed a lot of bills.

Most of the bills that get done are done on a really, I'll even say bipartisan basis, but you know, they're clean up, they're technical.

So what does he mean by I'm gonna veto more bills or I'm going to look more towards that?

It'll be an interesting thing.

Does that-- is he trying to put a line in the sand saying I'm going to-- you need to come to me?

I need to be more involved in policy or I'm going to do that.

Or is it going to be no do your thing, but I'm just going to put a marker down and veto more bills?

It'll be interesting to see how he does that.

I would hope that what that means is you need to consult with me.

We need to have more conversations about the policy perspective at the beginning and not just expect me to rubber stamp it at the end.

Jason: Good point, do you have anything on this, Scott?

Scott: One of the most poignant moments in whole speech was when he talked about this great teacher who sacrificed and then they said it's my brother.

Wow, that sent a message to me that this guy really does understand education.

And I know he promised that he'd increase the WPU and when you look at his budget, as Chris knows, the governor sends a budget in the legislature to go oh, thank you.

We'll see you later.

But I hope that they'll all come together because education is the key and that was a really great moment when he told people now I know education inside out 'cause my brother's a teacher.

Chris: It's important to note and I want to give credit to President Adams and Speaker Wilson it could be easy for them to throw not only his budget out the window, but that speech and just say you know what if he wants to fight, we'll take a fight.

That's not the approach they're taking.

They deserve a lot of credit for, you know, the way that they've conducted themselves.

They have been strong in making sure that we're balancing health and economic interests in, you know, and balancing even getting schoolchildren back in.

So I give them a lot of credit.

They deserve credit as well.

It's a three headed monster in that regard and they have to work closely with one another in order for it to work to function properly.

Jason: Well, we are ending the first week of the session and to that aim right there from these legislators.

I was curious any bills you're seeing they're gonna start dominating the headlines or already becoming interesting in the state?

Emily, what are you seeing from your perspective there?

I know you're on the Hill.

Emily: Yeah, well, you know, I'm on the Hill virtually, Jason.

Stuart Adams said 2021 is the year of the tax cut and we have already seen the state Senate pass the first tax cut legislation, which targeted retired people's income.

So that's just the start.

They're still, you know, what like $40 million more is set aside for tax cuts.

So that's something that I think will be a big theme this year.

Another thing that I'm watching out for is police reform legislation.

And we have seen a lot of bills already mostly stemming from protests over the past year against police brutality and racial injustice.

So I think those will provide a lot of fodder for discussion and debate.

And that's something that I think we really need to keep an eye on this session.

Jason: Gonna watch those close.

Several things in there.

But Scott, you're working on a specific one.

We've got lots of viewers down in southern part of the state of Utah.

You're working on a bill.

Scott: Well, as a proud graduate of Dixie University, we should have changed that name-- Jason: Of Dixie State University-- Scott: Like Emily said it in our pre conference here.

We should have changed that 20 years ago and why we haven't changed that?

This is not about doing harm to the culture.

This is not doing harm to-- my aunt's name is Dixie, it's not showing disrespect.

What it is is showing that we are in the 21st Century, and that racism, and I'll quote Dowan Oaks, racism has to end.

It was that simple.

And I think connotations of that Dixie and what it means, we have to end that.

And so, to my legislative friends, this is an issue for each graduate down there when they go to apply for a job in New York City and their recruiter says tell me about-- does this say Dixie?

Did you misspell this?

Or tell me about Dixie.

That's hard.

And we have to end that.

And you know what?

To my good friends in St. George.

It's a cultural change and it's going to happen, but it will happen for the best of your kids and your grandkids and your great grandkids.

Jason: So interesting not many people know that for a name change like that it does require Chris.

It requires the legislature to be approved.

And this is an issue that's been since you were workin' legislature.

Chris: And I think it'll be interesting to see.

I applaud Dixie for, you know, the way they've engaged the grassroots and have talked about some of these issues and the impact it has on their graduates.

I'll just note I think one of the important issues the legislature often we focus on these big issues and generate a lot of headlines.

They're planning to spend a lot of money, both one time money and bonding on infrastructure that's-- and they're talking about roads, they're talking about transit, they're talkin' about active transportation, they're talking about fiber.

This is the benefit that's going to have for Utahns for generations.

Jason: It's so interesting.

We're gonna have to end with that but certainly as we look at the end of this session when there's a lot of money, one time money in particular, the quick decisions become even harder it turns out.

Scott: I can tell you from experience.

It is harder to allocate appropriate one time money than it is full time true.

Jason: Thank you so much for your insights this evening and thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

This show is also available as a podcast at PBSUtah.org/HinckleyReport or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

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