♪♪♪ male announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by Merit Medical and by contributions to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

Jason Perry: Tonight on "The Hinckley Report" as officials certified the final results of the election, what does turnout tell us about voter engagement?

Utahns react to changes in leadership on both the state and national level.

And Utah's lawmakers set the stage for next year's legislative priorities.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Jason: Good evening and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week, we have Republican State Representative Tyler Clancy, representing Provo in the Utah House; Republican Representative, Celeste Maloy, representing Utah's 2nd Congressional District; and Ben McAdams, former Democratic Congressman.

So glad to have you here on the program.

We have a lot of things to talk about today.

A lot of this is happening in Washington DC, but they have very clear impacts on what's happening here in the state of Utah.

So, I wanna get to these committee assignments.

So, I want to talk about now that the Republicans sort of have the trifecta, the House, the Senate, and the presidency, we're starting to talk about who gets what committee assignments.

So, Congresswoman Maloy, I want to start with you for just a minute.

Talk about sort of this process, you know, what's happening?

You're angling for a committee yourself.

You're in the majority now.

Talk about how this works and why Utahns should really pay attention.

Celeste Maloy: Yeah, this is a great time to talk about it because I'm learning a lot of this myself.

This is--I'm just shy of my one year mark in Congress.

So, I've never done this before.

But I know the Steering Committee makes all of those assignments and the Steering Committee is changing right now.

So, we had, excuse me, we had elections this week within our conference for who's going to be on the Steering Committee to make these decisions.

So, you can start lobbying a little bit early for the committees you want.

But then the Steering Committee changes and you start over.

And our region, so there are regional representatives on the Steering Committee.

Our region is Arizona, Utah, Nevada, and Oregon.

Arizona has six votes and then the other three states combined have six votes.

And yet, Burgess Owens managed to get elected to be our regional rep on the Steering Committee, which is great news for Utah.

And then of course, we have Blake Moore in leadership.

So, he also has vote on the Steering Committee.

So, we say all the time at the federal level that Utah punches above its weight, but we really are positioning ourselves to punch well above our weight.

Jason: Ben, talk about how you did this because not many people know it's a little bit of a lobbying process, how you work it, it's not just hey, you're from Utah, you get a committee.

You have to actually have to work this thing.

Ben McAdams: Yeah, and this happens differently.

There's a process on the Democratic side and a process on the Republican side when you know, they have the ratios of who's controlling the House.

Then they come--that ratio filters down into the committee.

So, then they'll start constituting the committee with a Republican majority right now and a Democratic majority.

So, when you're a member of Congress, you're looking at like what are my interests, what are my skills, and my background?

But you also wanna factor in what's important to the state that you represent.

So, for example, Utah always wants to have somebody on natural resources because so much of our land is controlled by the federal government.

So, you want to have somebody there who can be a voice.

When I was looking to--at what committees I wanted to be on Financial Services was a key one because we have so many industrial loan corporations and banks that are headquartered in Utah.

So, that's an important one for the state of Utah to have a representative on Financial Services.

And it also aligned with my background in law and securities and financial institution law.

Utah, you know, it's always good to have somebody on education with the education institutions we have here.

I wanted to be on the Science Committee because the University of Utah was--is a tier one research institution.

And so, I made sure that I got on the Science Committee to be an advocate for the University of Utah and its needs.

So, we have right now, you know, our delegation is actually as Representative Maloy was saying, is well situated going in.

There's some jockeying to try and get some of the plum spots and to be in a good position on these committees, but we're well situated.

Representative Maloy has been there, has a year of tenure.

So, that's ahead of many of the people who are coming in.

So, she'll be in a good position to maybe stretch and we hope to see her on a--well, she's represented as well on many committees.

I don't wanna say that any committee is better than another, but I know that she is in a position to maybe get on some committees where she can even have a better and a larger influence on the state of Utah.

Representative Owens has been on the Education Committee that I said is important to the state and I understand he's looking to be chair of that committee, which would be good for the state of Utah to have that.

Jason: Let's talk about those chair positions for just a moment and talk about the state perspective here for a second, representative, because we talked about natural resources, public lands, et cetera.

And so one of the ones that Ben just talked about was this Senate Energy Natural Resources Committee.

Interesting, this is Senator Mike Lee is going to chair this committee.

How does that align with some of the objectives of the state of Utah as they start really advocating some of these public land issues in particular?

Tyler Clancy: Well, certainly, we, 2000 miles away are cheering on our federal delegation in these processes to become in leadership and chairs because whether it's education or natural resources, these federal rules and regulations do have an impact at the local level.

So, however we can be effective in helping and supporting our federal delegation, we're all on board.

Jason: How often are we having these conversations with the state?

I know you are here often talk with these leaders, Ben, I know from experience that you are here often.

Talk about that relationship between the local legislature, their policies, and what you all are doing in DC.

Celeste: It varies based on who's in the positions.

But I think right now we're doing as well as I've ever seen us do in the time I've been in policy for a couple of reasons.

I--we had a sit down with the Federal Delegation and leadership in the State House and Senate just a few weeks ago.

But Mike Kennedy, Senator Mike Kennedy, from the State Senate is now gonna be Congressman Mike Kennedy at the federal level.

And he has those relationships and he has that perspective, and I think it's really going to be helpful to have him be part of the Federal Delegation and be able to help us coordinate with the state legislature.

Because when we have different priorities, it's really hard to represent Utah well.

We should be working towards the same goals because we represent the same constituents and particularly with, you know, the state's lawsuit on public lands and some of these other things that are happening, we have to make sure the state and the Federal delegation are asking for the same things.

You talked about the trifecta.

You know, Republicans are going to have a lot of influence in Washington DC for the next two years.

Utah is a very red state and sometimes when Republicans have a lot of these things lined up, we start fighting with each other and we've got to be really careful not to do that.

Stay focused on the things we can get done, stay aligned, and make sure that we're asking for the same things for the state so that we can get them done instead of just having a fun spectacle where everybody gets to see us debate Republican priorities.

Ben: I just wanna say quickly.

This is a moment in time where Congress seems to work, a brief moment in time where Congress seems to work.

But if you look at it, it's a much less partisan time.

So, a month ago, I'm Representative Malloy's constituent.

I voted for her opponent and now I'm hoping that she gets the best slot possible on committee because we want--what we want is Utah to succeed.

This isn't about Republican or Democrat.

It's about what's good for Utah.

I'd love to see Representative Kennedy make a play for Financial Services.

I think it's important for Utah to have a seat there and this is a time where we kind of come together and we rally for what's good for the state, regardless of party or who you support in the election.

You know, it is big for Utah to see Senator Mike Lee coming in and sharing energy with the governor's announcement about Operation Gigawatt and Utah wanting to be a net exporter of energy--that's big.

So, we want to see him succeed and we want to see Utahns in powerful positions to move forward what's good for the people of Utah.

Jason: Go ahead, Representative.

Tyler: No, I totally agree.

I think this is really one of the most coordinated times that I've seen in the years I've been involved of the Federal Delegation, of the state, and even some of our local partners with cities and counties all cheering on and hoping for the success of our city.

Jason: Ben, talk about this for just a moment because you referenced it.

It will be interesting because we will know this week if Congressman Burgess Owens is going to be the chair of the Education and the Workforce Committee, a huge one at a very important time for the state of Utah.

Ben: Yeah, I think, you know, I've had the opportunity to interact with Burgess Owens as the viewers may recall.

We had a little bit of a falling out a few years ago and we ran against each other, but I've had an opportunity to to interact with him a little bit in his role on education.

I have chaired the Western Governor's advisory committee, Western Governors University.

That's incredible asset to have here in the state of Utah.

And he's been a champion for many of the issues that we're trying to do to expand access to education to so many people through that low cost and valuable tool.

And so, you know, it's been great to have somebody there who will be a champion for that and it would be great to have him as the chair of that committee.

There's--he's certainly, you know, to be sure gonna to take positions and stances that I'm gonna disagree with, but I want Utah to have a powerful voice in that committee that can advocate for our interest.

Jason: Do you want to talk--oh, go ahead, please.

Tyler: And Congressman Owens also has a personal story about how education opened doors for him, which I think resonates a lot with his colleagues in the House and the Senate, but also too, with constituents.

And so, it would be exciting to see that personal story of hope and opportunity show out in that leadership role.

Jason: You want to talk about your committee assignments, what's gonna happen with you, can't wait to find out.

Celeste: I don't dare say too much yet because I'm still in this process and you know, the internet gets everywhere.

So, I don't want people on Steering Committee to hear me getting ahead of myself, but I am currently on transportation and infrastructure and small business.

Those were committees that had openings when I got there in the middle of the Congress.

I am working on getting committed--on to committees that I think are really important for Utah's priorities, but I don't wanna jinx anything yet.

Jason: It's probably, probably appropriate.

Celeste: I do want to tell you something really quickly though about having Burgess Owens on education and workforce and the coordinations that we have going on right now in the state.

So, I think everybody knows that the state legislature passed a lot of bills the last session that deal with higher ed and one of them had to do with how higher ed can do, you know, DEI programs.

Having Congressman Owens on that committee made it so that he could pass a bill at the federal level that says the federal government can't require universities to do what the state just told them they can't do.

And those things are important.

It's not what most people think about when they turn on the news.

But if the state is telling universities you can't do this and the federal government is telling them you have to, it puts universities in a bind where they don't know how to follow the law.

But having the state and the federal government, our federal delegation at least coordinating means we can have policies that make sense.

So, people know when they're following the law.

Jason: Before we leave this topic and just one issue that I wanna address is, because I know you were close to this in the past, is when you have a majority in the House and the Senate, we talk a little bit about this filibuster.

You know, because that's the question that came almost immediately to leadership in the Senate in particular is, you know, will you abolish the filibuster?

So, your trifecta can sort of be unfettered of sorts.

Maybe just take like 30 seconds on what that means and why the Republicans are already saying no, we're not going to abolish it.

Ben: So, the filibuster is a tool that's used in the Senate, right?

So, in the House, it's a simple majority to pass legislation.

In the Senate you need 60 votes.

If they--and to invoke cloture, which gets it to a vote.

And the filibuster is that tool to say, you know, we're going to keep it at that 60 vote threshold.

So, you may remember a couple of years ago, there was a lot of pressure on Dems who were frustrated by Republicans who wouldn't allow legislation to go forward.

They were saying eliminate the filibuster.

We've got a simple majority.

Why do we have to strive for the 60 vote majority?

And we vilified people like Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin who stood for the norm of the filibuster.

Well, look now the tables are turned.

Republicans control the presidency, the House, and the Senate.

And you know, you have to say is the filibuster gonna stand?

So, now that the tables are turned, that filibuster is a powerful tool, a norm that's protecting and has protected a lot of things that I care about and my colleagues on the Democratic side of the aisle care about.

And so, you know, I just wanna maybe give an asterisk here to history to say the norms that you're vilifying today are the norms that are gonna protect you in the future.

And so, I was happy to see Senator Thune say that the filibuster will stand.

I think norms and institutions are what protect us when the other side, whether that other side be Democrat or Republican is doing things you hate.

We as Americans have to agree that we're going to comport with norms and standards that have kept this democracy vibrant for 200 years.

Tyler: And Congressman, we've all had these conversations about trust, trust in our institutions.

Moments like these where you can come, where you might be able to push the tables, you might be able to go a little bit farther and really lack that restraint.

These are moments when that trust can be increased, when that--folks like Senator Sinema, Senator Manchin are really vindicated in their talking about the importance of these institutions and these norms as Congressman McAdams put it.

Jason: Can we talk about these--the trust in institutions for a minute?

Because I think it's a perfect segue to where we are as a country.

We saw some very interesting voting trends across the country this past time.

And we heard a lot of people talking about, you know, the threats to our democracy, et cetera.

And Congresswoman, I want to start with you for just a moment with some polling that we did through the Hinckley Institute, the Deseret News, talking about how Americans feel about our institutions.

And it's interesting because there are a lot of folks, a lot of groups that are not at the high on the list.

I was gonna start with you.

I'm sorry, with this because Congress turns out was, was the lowest on the list; 29% of America--of Utahns thought that we were better off because of Congress.

Interesting, 32% said--only 32% said better off because of the news media, 38% because of the legislature, state legislature, 45% of the Supreme Court.

Of course, before I rounded up 83% said small business, which is interesting, the other end.

Talk about that just for a moment because it does seem that our institutions are under attack.

Celeste: Yeah, and sometimes they're under attack for good reason.

So, those of us who are part of institutions, which is everybody sitting here, we need to have that mind.

We need to protect the institutions because protecting the institutions, protects people.

I spent a lot of time talking to voters in the last year and a half.

Most of my time talking to voters in the last year and a half and they don't trust universities, they don't trust religion like they used to, they don't trust government entities, they don't trust experts.

The places we used to go to get good information are not trusted institutions anymore.

And so, it's time to do some soul searching and figure out how we regain that trust.

I think the filibuster rule is a good example of that.

We can't abolish the filibuster because that's how we keep the minority protected in the Senate.

That's how we make sure we don't have wild swings in policy.

And what people are reacting to is the way we've abused the edges of these institutions.

The way politicians have used their positions to get things for themselves instead of protecting individuals.

The way universities have used their position to push ideology instead of just educating.

And my biggest fear, I've said this a lot of times, I apologize to people who have already heard me say it.

But my biggest fear for the future of this country is that we're just going to willingly walk away from our own system of government.

And there's not something better out there.

There's not a better system of government just waiting.

We've tried everything under the sun.

If you care about individual liberties, we have to clean our own house.

We have to make our institution work.

So, I talk all the time now about rebalancing the power between the three branches of government because that's what keeps individuals safe.

That's how we protect individual freedom.

Right now the Executive Branch is much too powerful and it's not hard to explain to people what that means.

Every time we elect a new president, we have huge swings in policy.

It's not supposed to work that way.

Congress is supposed to set policy because we have to directly answer to the people.

Presidents directly answer to the people, but all of those executive branch agencies that work under them do not.

Tyler: And Congresswoman, I love what you said about really those numbers, you mentioned, staggering numbers really being a challenge to those of us who care about these institutions.

You know, I talked to my friends who are economists and we talk about the record inflation that we've seen.

They say, well, look at this graph.

Why are people so frustrated?

If we take that approach, we're gonna continue to see more of the same because every tick on a graph is a person.

Every dollar that's spent on groceries that wasn't last year is a pain, a personal pain that folks are feeling at the kitchen table.

So, when we see those numbers, it really should be a call to those of us who believe and care about these institutions to get out in our communities, learn about these concerns, and then take that back to Capitol Hill or wherever you might be.

Jason: Ben, talk for a moment about how we restore some of that.

I know you talked about this when you were in Congress and I know for a fact you've been talking about it since.

How do we do--how do we get some of that back?

Ben: Well, some of the first of all, I think ours--we have to recognize that our institutions aren't being what they need to be to meet the needs of the American people.

So, our institutions need to evolve.

But you also see a lot of institutionalists who are the arsonists who are burning down the institutions, right?

So, I think it falls on those of us who are in an institution to, you know, it's a cheap shot to go and tear down the institution and grandstand about it, and send out a tweet, and become viral.

That's feeding into what people want to hear.

And certainly you can get fame and popularity and raise campaign dollars by doing that.

I think we do have to recognize that our institutions are falling short and let's be part of fixing and propping up these institutions, making them better, adapting them to the needs of the American people.

Another quick example on that is the confirmation process in the Senate.

The president nominates, the Senate has a constitutional responsibility to confirm, to vet, to have confirmation hearings, and then to confirm those nominees.

This is not something to be taken lightly.

This doesn't mean just because the president has nominated somebody, the Senate has to confirm them.

Now, I think the president deserves a degree of deference on his nominees.

But the Senate should, that is a role enshrined in the institution of the Senate to take a meaningful look at these nominees and vet them and then confirm.

So, you know, there was a lot of call by President-elect Trump to make recess appointment and just to go around this constitutional requirement.

I'm happy to see that Republicans in the Senate have said no, we're going to keep this norm, this constitutional expectation of a Senate confirmation in there.

We're going to give deference as they, I think they should to the president's nominees, but we're going to be a check and balance to--on these nominees and we're going to perform our role to vet them.

That is I think institution building and institution reforming rather than institution tearing down.

Tyler: It reminds me of that quote from President Truman, "Any old donkey can kick down a house.

It's a lot harder to build one."

Celeste: It is, and we haven't talked yet about one of the institutions that really has lost a lot of trust in the last couple of decades and that's the media.

And they have the same incentive structure that Ben McAdams just talked about with politicians.

If the media is pushing a narrative or what I've noticed already as a member of Congress is a lot of times when we're grappling with a difficult issue, the media, especially if it is further to one end or the other of the political spectrum.

They put a lot of pressure on me and my colleagues for an outcome.

The media isn't usually out cheering on protecting the institution.

You know, they're saying, why would you--why would you even consider kicking somebody out for ethics violations in a closely divided Congress?

Well, because we also have a constitutional responsibility to police the ethics in our own body.

But when there's a narrative out there that ethics shouldn't matter in a closely divided Congress, that tears down the institution as well.

And so, I--we all have to step up and do a better job.

The media, higher ed, politicians, the three branches, state government, federal government.

We have to protect the institutions, not for the sake of the institutions, but for the sake of the freedom of the American people and our Republic to function.

Everything we do should be about making sure the Republic functions, not that we get high ratings or raise a lot of money or become famous.

Ben: I was in DC earlier this week and I happened to get on the elevator and it was in the Longworth House office building and this gentleman got on, young man who said, and he was just ranting.

He--one of those people, right?

And he said, "Oh, this is my first time to Washington DC.

And I've met so many members of Congress here, none of whom have I ever heard of before."

And he says, "I want more of the good ones like Marjorie Taylor Green because I know that she's out there and I know what she's doing."

And he didn't know that I was a former member of Congress.

I didn't disclose, I didn't think that would be the-- Yeah, just listen.

But I thought, you know, the ones who you've never heard of are the ones who are moving this country forward.

They're solving problems.

They're passing legislation.

The ones who you see on cable news, who are sending that viral tweet, you know, it, it's hard to legislate, and collaborate and build bipartisan consensus and be the firebrand who's tearing down the institution.

So, it maybe goes against, you know, conventional wisdom.

But the people who you know, maybe there's an inverse relationship between the better you know them, the less likely they are to be a problem solver.

Celeste: And it's not just hard to build bipartisan consensus that way.

It's hard to build consensus within your own conference that way.

And again, there's a quick reward for it.

If you're out on Twitter or you're holding a news conference on the Capitol steps, you get a really quick high from that.

It takes a long time to get the high from I've worked hard with my colleagues, I've built consensus, I've made my arguments and been persuasive and now I have a win to deliver from that.

Jason: Just one more question on the local level too because all these things at play, we talked on the federal level, certainly true on the state level.

And people don't often realize that there are some of these issues even when you have a super majority like the Republicans do in the state of Utah.

Tyler: Certainly, it's about building those relationships, building the infrastructure.

When we're running races, we're partisans, we're running for a Republican nomination or in a primary of some sort.

But after we get elected, our charge is to work for the folks of Utah.

There are Democrats in my district who as Congressman McAdams alluded to didn't vote for me.

I still have a mandate to work for those.

When you talk about the issues of public safety, economic stability, transportation, those are issues that cut across partisan divides and folks are expecting us to get done on Capitol Hill.

Jason: Let's talk about a couple of really quick issues that will come up with this legislative session, local issues, some of it's gonna have to be fixed on the federal level.

Let's talk about some of the water.

It's gonna be one we've been talking about a lot on the local level.

Talk about for just a second and how this gets to the federal side.

Tyler: Certainly, managing our land, water rights, looking at the next 50 to 100 years of issues like the Great Salt Lake, Utah Lake.

How do we preserve and protect these amazing natural resources we've been blessed with while also planning for responsible growth.

Celeste: Yeah, and we're the beneficiaries of people who looked 50 and 100 years ahead 50 and 100 years ago.

And so, we have a responsibility to keep doing that.

And for the most part, the federal government should stay out of water policy, it's state policy.

However, especially in a state like ours where so much of the land is managed by the federal government, when the state comes up with a water plan, we have to get permits from federal agencies.

We usually need funding from federal agencies for really large projects and the federal government has to be able to function.

We have to be able to make decisions, issue permits, even do the environmental due diligence and move forward in a lot less time than we've been doing it.

So, we have work to do there.

Jason: Talk about this federal land--public lands issue because this has not changed much since you were in Congress, Ben, but you have roughly 70% of the state of Utah is owned by the federal government.

Some of the issues we just talked here, but we continue to have efforts from the state of Utah just sort of separate that land for the state.

Ben: Yeah, I mean, this is an issue that's incredibly nuanced and it also doesn't play well in the tweet or the 30-second TV ad.

But you know, Utah, I think is very blessed to have beautiful national parks and lands that people come from all over the globe to visit and see the beauty of Utah's terrain.

We also have incredible natural resources.

So, as we are looking to become an energy exporter and a clean energy exporter through solar, wind, and geothermal energy.

This is something that Utah we can give some of these assets that we have to the rest of the country as we look for energy independence.

So, managing that I think doesn't fit easily into one side saying give us back all the land and the other side saying preserve it all.

These are conversations that need to happen deliberately, carefully, as we're looking at the, you know, the--and I'm somebody who believes deeply in conservation.

I'm an eagle scout and grew up like hiking and camping.

I love Utah's public lands.

I love to enjoy them and I love that we have this for my kids and our people.

But we also need to recognize that supporting our population and being able to be an exporter of clean and renewable energy is another opportunity we have.

We also have people in rural communities that are struggling.

They need to have tax dollars to support their schools and an income to support their families.

And so, this is just not an issue that fits onto a postage stamp and it's something we need.

I think bridge builders to sit at the table and find out--find a consensus based approach.

Jason: In our last 20 seconds, Congresswoman Maloy, it seems like energy is gonna be the hot issue, not just for us but going forward.

It sounds like it's a broad mix in our last 20 seconds.

Celeste: Yeah, I was in a meeting yesterday between senators and members of the House where we were talking about, do we take one step at a time on energy or do we take big leaps forward?

And without betraying what anybody else said in that meeting, I think the fact that that's one of the first things we're talking about heading into the new Congress shows that it is a top of mind issue across the board and we're talking so that gives me hope that we're going to get to good answers on this.

Jason: Perfect, that's going to have to be the last comment.

Thank you for your great insights this evening and thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

This show is also available as a podcast on PBSutah.org, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by Merit Medical and by contributions to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

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