Jason Perry: On this episode of "The Hinckley Report," our expert panel reflects on the recent political violence that shocked our state.

How have citizens and leaders responded?

Has political rhetoric become too extreme?

And what are the broader implications for American politics?

announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by the Cleone Peterson Eccles Endowment Fund.

♪♪♪ Jason Perry: Good evening, and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week, we have Amelia Powers Gardner, a Republican member of the Utah County Commission; Brian King, chair of the Utah Democratic Party; and Chris Bleak, a partner with RRJ Consulting.

So glad you're all with us on the program.

This is a very important conversation we're going to have today.

The killing of Charlie Kirk on one of our Utah campuses here in the state has really brought a lot of questions to the surface, some profound questions about things like political violence, about speech itself, about us engaging in the political process, and the three of you are perfectly suited to have this conversation.

And I want to start first with some polling that we've done throughout the state of Utah.

This is right after the shooting, the killing, and we want to get the impression of where Utahns were on a few issues.

And the big one to set the stage was a question about how concerned Utahns are about political violence in the country today.

And Amelia, let's start with you on this, because there's a universal answer from Utahns.

This is 90% of Utahns are quite concerned about political violence.

Let's talk about that for just a moment, what that means, and what it means going forward.

Amelia Powers Gardner: Yeah, I agree with them.

I'm quite concerned about political violence.

Even in the last 60 days I've received threats as an elected official, and having it happen right here at home in my county really brings those threats home.

I myself am finishing my term of office, and am I going to run again?

Well, if political violence is the thing, I have 6 children.

Do I worry about running again?

And if I worry, is this going to push good people out of politics?

And how do we talk to our kids about political violence and engaging with people that they disagree with?

This is a real concern on the minds of not only our citizens, but especially our families.

Jason Perry: Brian, so really, it sounds like this is very insightful, not just what happens to our discourse, but also to people even being willing to run for office, something you are quite good at having been a formal elected official, but also recruiting people to run for office.

Brian King: Oh yeah, I mean, one of the things that I do worry, as Amelia says, about political violence.

It seems the thing that I'm concerned about is that we have a link, I believe, between the rhetoric that our elected officials and our candidates use and the degree to which they're willing to aggressively call out opponents in sometimes quite explicit terms that lends itself to or is sometimes explicitly go after them, or you know, calls for their followers to be violent.

And the violence then happening, that worries me.

I also think that it's pretty clear from history that you have these political violence episodes perpetuated, that they tend to follow each other and spiral and increase until something happens to cause them to come back down to a normal level.

But I worry that we over the last few months and years have seen an increase in a way that makes me think it is likely to continue until and unless we address it in a way that causes people to say, okay, enough of this.

We've got to start talking to each other rather than pulling a gun out.

Jason Perry: Connected to this question, and Chris, if you'll take a minute on what both of them have just said.

The question we asked was, do you think the Charlie Kirk shooting will have an impact on national politics?

Talk about what that might mean, and maybe this conversation about what can happen next is something we should get into.

Chris Bleak: I think it's interesting, you know, both the timing of the event, right around September 11, an event that was, you know, certainly significant for a number of folks of that generation or age, really everyone.

But, you know, that impacts the way people think about their events, and I think these types of events, the assassination of Charlie Kirk, has a similar type of effect on the youth that are sort of thinking about how they're going to view the world and how they feel they should be engaging, maybe to Amelia's point, should they be getting involved in politics?

Is that a safe place for them?

And is it a place where they can make a constructive difference?

And those, I think, are really important components of what's happening and the event and how people are crystallizing that in their own minds.

Jason Perry: Well, it's so interesting, because that certainly is one of the potential reactions is to disengage entirely, which we don't want necessarily.

But can we talk about the youth a little bit?

Because they are impacted, and this is something you've talked about before too.

Let's get into how they're viewing things like this and how it may not just shape their political identities, but their willingness to engage at all.

Amelia Powers Gardner: I think they in the past engaged online mostly, and as they start to come out of that shell from the online shock that they've had in this, we need to make sure that they understand that open dialogue, particularly with people you disagree with, is good.

It's actually healthy.

You know, I've heard youth say when they feel uncomfortable, I've heard them say, "I feel unsafe."

And I've had to explain to my kids recently, being uncomfortable is not unsafe.

Violence is unsafe, but hearing words that make you feel uncomfortable, that's not unsafe.

That's actually a growth opportunity to listen and to understand and to connect and to explore and experiment.

Why do you feel that way?

Why do I feel this way?

Let's discuss.

We need to encourage that.

Jason Perry: Chris, the lens that our youth are looking through these political actions seems to have changed substantially through social media, things that weren't really around when we were a kid.

It seems to mobilize and help people really just to stick around people who think the same they do, sort of an echo chamber.

Talk about that.

Chris Bleak: Well, one of the seminal articles that impacted me back in college was an article written by Robert Putnam about bowling alone, and he talks a lot about the loss of social capital or social networks, and this is something that's always been really important to me.

I think--I'd like to think Utah has historically done pretty well on this front, although I think we need to question or look at are our institutions, are our sense of community, are they still strong enough?

And are we looking out for those that, you know, are feeling vulnerable or are in a position of weakness?

I think we need to look at ourselves and say how can I be more inclusive and pull people in?

Because these social networks are fraying.

I'd like to blame social media, but there are benefits to social media as well.

But we need to find ways to connect our kids, connect our communities, and I think that is a way that each of us can sort of act in our own personal way, right?

We can blame others, we can say, you know, our politicians need to do something or these people need to do something, but we also as human beings, as individuals, as members of this community need to look at ways that we can reach out, pull people in, pull together our communities so that we're stronger and we have those networks that will support one another.

Brian King: You know, technology, I listened to what Chris and Amelia say, and I'm with them.

I think we're all three together in saying technology has never made it easier to both isolate ourselves socially from others and to work together to accomplish some great things.

And how we use technology, of course, is critically important.

And there is a temptation on the part of many of our young people, particularly, to find that technology is very attractive to game and to do things that don't involve the need to get out and socialize with others and have hard conversations or any conversations with people that they don't agree with or who have life experiences that are different than theirs.

I think that is something that we've absolutely got to do a better job of, and I also think one of the things that we've got politically going on is very little talk about and commitment to nonviolent political change.

We have instead some of our political leaders who vowed to be an instrument of retribution and that kind of punishment.

That's not going to lead us in a direction of less political violence.

That's going to lead us in the direction of more political violence.

We need to help people understand that great progress is made and has been made in the past by a real firm commitment to nonviolent political change, things like Martin Luther King and people in other countries have shown that.

Amelia Powers Gardner: I think it's also important that we assert that to our own side as well.

I mean, we have a Democrat and a Republican sitting here.

We need to be consistent.

If we do not agree with political violence, then we don't agree with political violence on either side of the aisle.

And if we don't agree with vengeance and retaliation, then we don't agree with vengeance and retaliation on either side of the aisle.

And I'll say this as a conservative Republican, any conservative Republicans calling for vengeance right now, you are wrong.

We need peace right now.

We need to find a path forward.

We do not need retaliation.

Brian King: And let me jump in and say I appreciate you saying that, Amelia.

You're absolutely right.

Individuals who are extreme on any end of the political spectrum are the ones most likely to say because they're extreme and extremists, "We have to resort to extreme measures," and political violence being one of them.

I absolutely reject that, and I think any responsible political official, elected or candidate, needs to stand up and say that unequivocally and make sure that all their words apply fairly and equally to everyone, regardless of what their viewpoint is politically.

Amelia Powers Gardner: Absolutely.

Chris Bleak: And, you know, I would say I give the governor real props here.

He has been talking for a long time.

He's taken a lot of heat for his Disagree Better initiative, but I think he has been mirroring or focusing on this specific issue.

How do we talk with one another?

To Amelia's point, conflict is fine.

You know, disagreement is fine.

Being uncomfortable when your ideas are being challenged are good.

That's how you learn, that's how you grow.

But there is a way that you can do that respectfully, and that there is a way that you can engage.

And so, modeling that, mirroring that for our kids so that they don't see violence as the answer is important, but also that, you know, it's not just our kids.

I love to complain about Gen Z and complain about my kids and laugh about that.

But it's all of us have this-- have to make sure that we're finding ways that we can engage and be constructive and challenge one another respectfully and pull each other together rather than just pushing apart and being those extremists that Brian references.

Brian King: I have to say, I think that the governor has-- Friday morning in his press conference I was very impressed with his language and his words.

It was inspiring in many ways.

But the governor also reflects the reality that elected officials are influenced by their leaders.

On the Sunday morning talk shows he's talking about leftists causing this murder of Charlie Kirk.

Well, that's not helpful.

We don't have the information that allows anybody in their right mind to really comfortably apply any label to this young man.

He was obviously very troubled.

We'll find out more what motivated him, but I want--I think that for us to move away from political violence and have more meaningful discussions, we have to get away from this labeling of polarity, you know, left versus right, blue versus red, Team Republican versus Team Democrat, and talk about the fact that it's not--that isn't the polarity that we need to be talking about.

We need to be talking about true versus false.

We need to be talking about fact versus fantasy.

And when we as a group of people commit to having political discussions based on those things rather than on Team Red or Team Blue, that's when we're likely to make progress and avoid political violence.

Jason Perry: I want to--since we talked about the governor's press conference, I want to show that clip for just a minute.

Now I want to get to this Team Red or Team Blue, how people might view some of these things.

Watch this video clip from the governor and give a talk about-- an answer to us about this question about what should an elected official do?

Particularly when you're talking to our youth.

Spencer Cox: Your generation has an opportunity to build a culture that is very different than what we are suffering through right now, not by pretending differences don't matter, but by embracing our differences and having those hard conversations.

History will dictate if this is a turning point for our country, but every single one of us gets to choose right now if this is a turning point for us.

We get to make decisions.

We have our agency.

Jason Perry: Go ahead.

Amelia Powers Gardner: You know, I see this in two ways.

I see this not only as the commissioner that is serving that county, but also as a mother.

And as a commissioner, I don't just represent the Republicans who voted for me.

I represent all the people living in Utah County, and some of the people highly traumatized by this event were not Republicans.

There were protesters at that event that disagreed vehemently with Charlie Kirk who were traumatized because they saw a man die.

There are apolitical people that were just curious and showed up on campus.

They too are traumatized, and I think as we talk to them, they're listening to our message right now.

And is that message left or right?

Or is it right and wrong?

We need to make sure that we are hearing them where they are.

We're not making this about politics.

We're making this about violence is never acceptable.

Your opinion matters.

You have a right to say your opinion, even when it makes others uncomfortable.

But then as a mother, it has absolutely changed the way that I interact and speak to my children, my nieces, my nephews.

I tend to use humor or sarcasm a little bit to get my point across with my teenage boys.

I think they resonate with that.

And so, the other night I was talking to my son.

I said, "Brush your teeth, say your prayers, don't get radicalized in the dark corners of the Internet, and killing people because you disagree with them is absolutely unacceptable."

And he kind of laughs.

I, you know, I picked up my daughter from my niece the other day.

I said the same thing.

I said, "I love you.

I'm proud of you, and I want you to know it is never okay to use violence when you disagree with someone."

And they laughed, but at least they're hearing it.

Jason Perry: Let's talk for a minute about how these categories of people are being received, because sometimes we asked Utahns, who's responsible for some of this?

They're not having these conversations like you're having when people are brushing their teeth, but when we talk about responsibility for the dialogue itself, when we asked Utahns about who is most responsible.

Brian, let's talk about these two categories first, because these were the groups that got the most.

Forty three percent of Utahns say politicians, which is different than elected people necessarily, people who are in the political world.

Politicians, 43% get the responsibility from Utahns, followed by 29% was tied, media and social media platforms.

These are the groups that Utahns right now are looking at.

Discuss that for just a moment and how we have these conversations, realizing that's where people think that the problem is.

Brian King: Yeah, well, it was interesting to me to hear-- people look to their--they take cues from the leaders.

They listen to what the President of the United States has to say or what the governor of the state has to say.

And in that sense what Governor Cox said on his Friday morning press conference was impressive.

Not so much the press conference that was done Wednesday night, the night of the shooting from the President of the United States, who really aggressively pointed the finger in one direction politically and spoke in a way that I did not think lowered tension at all.

I think that what we have to do when people answer that question and say it's politicians, I think that we have to as elected officials--and I come from this after 16 years of being one and as the chair of the party in some form, I'm an elected official I suppose--but we have to be the ones who exercise good judgment, exercise restraint, recognize that the bonds that we share with each other--I mean, Amelia and I are Republican versus Democrat.

I am absolutely confident that we have a lot more in common in terms of how we would approach solving problems and putting in place good policies for Utahns than we have that separates us.

And my experience in 16 years at the legislature verifies that that's true.

That's what we have to focus on.

That's what we have to be talking about if we're going to lower the temperature and if we're going to reduce the likelihood of political violence is to help people know and understand, this person isn't your enemy.

This person is someone that you may have disagreements about, sometimes deeply felt about various things, but they're the solution to the problem.

It's only by working across the spectrum to people who disagree with you that you're going to be able to find good solutions to difficult problems.

Jason Perry: Chris, this leads to another one of our polling questions.

This is about who blames what side for this, to Brian's exact point.

The question we had is do you feel that the left or the right bears more responsibility for political violence in the United States today?

It's interesting, the total number was 25% blamed the left, 37% blamed the left and the right equally, and 20% blame just the right.

Let me break this down as you get your answer just a little bit, because it's very clear, it's 44% of Republicans, if you just break down the cross tabs here, 44% of the Republicans say it was the left, 52% of Democrats say it was the right, and interestingly it was the independents who said it was 44% was the left and the right equally.

Let's talk about this just a little bit, because this is about your vantage point and how you approach these conversations.

Chris Bleak: Yeah, and I think it's obvious, you know, we see everything through those lenses of right and left right now, you know, Team Red, Team Blue.

The economy was terrible four years ago.

It's really great right now.

But it's just flipped, right?

The people who think it's terrible thought it was great.

People who think it's great think it's terrible now.

And so, we see everything through these partisan lenses, and that's inflamed by, you know, our own algorithms.

And I say the media generally, not blaming the media, but they are as polarized as well in terms of who they're talking to and who people are receiving that message from.

And I think that's really problematic.

I don't quite know how you solve that.

But I would encourage people to get out of their own echo chambers and look and read and challenge themselves, right?

We've been talking about having uncomfortable conversations.

Look at other media sources and other ways to sort of engage and think critically.

Am I challenging my own opinion?

Because I think that's an important thing to do right now to break down Team Red, Team Blue, to understand, you know, I think that there is a lot of gray in terms of how people look at issues.

It's not as black and white as we are when we're kids, right?

When I'm a kid, I'm Team Utah.

I don't like BYU.

But as I grow older, I realize there are a lot of good people at BYU, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

I still am on Team Utah, don't get me wrong, but at the same time I recognize that there's a difference of the way that they're approaching the issues, but there's facts on both sides, and it's important that we understand those and can explain those.

Jason Perry: So Amelia, so this is sort of an interesting art.

I teach here at the University of Utah.

I'm with these students all the time.

This idea that Chris just put forward that maybe you should be comfortable with people challenging your opinions or the things that you think you hold closely.

Talk about that for just a minute about how maybe, as you listen, it may help you understand your own position, maybe even a little better.

It might not be such a negative thing to understand the opposite side.

Amelia Powers Gardner: You know, I was very fortunate.

I went to Weber State University, and I didn't have any other friends going to Weber State, so when I signed up to be in the dorms, I was assigned a roommate.

And my roommate lived here in the Salt Lake Valley.

She lived in the avenues here in Salt Lake, and I came from Provo.

I could hear when a touchdown happened before we saw it on TV at Lavelle Edwards Stadium, okay?

And I grew up in a very, very conservative family.

She grew up in a very liberal family, and when she found out that I was a conservative Latter Day Saint, she called the school and asked to switch roommates because she was a progressive Democrat and she did not think we would be able to get along.

I didn't know it at the time, but the school said you have to live with her for one month before we'll let you switch.

She was a bridesmaid at my wedding.

And I was a bridesmaid at hers.

And she is one of my best friends, and to this day we still disagree.

And so, I luckily started my adulthood literally living in a room for nine months with someone who disagreed with me politically, and I love her and her family to this day.

That was a huge lesson for me.

Becoming an elected official, one of the things that has been the most enlightening for me is when my opinion does not agree with the facts.

Now, luckily I have a very strong logic center of my brain, and so when the opinion and the facts don't align, I lean towards the facts, because I want results and I want--and I want to accomplish things.

I got into government to serve my community, not to scream from the rooftops and accomplish nothing, so I go with the facts.

But this is something that we need to understand, is that sometimes our opinion doesn't align with the facts.

I, as a conservative Republican, but having served in government, working across the aisle with people like Brian and knowing that that's actually how you get things done, having studied the Constitution and learning that our Founding Fathers literally designed the legislative branch for compromise, and yet I have people on my own side who say compromise is a bad word.

Yet they idealize the Founding Fathers who literally designed government for compromise.

I think we need to start looking around and saying, hey, we're all in this together.

We need to move forward together.

And the best way to do that is to recognize that the other person is a child of God.

They were a human and they are a person first.

Their political ideology is way down on that list.

Chris Bleak: Amelia makes a really interesting point about what are the incentives for elected officials, right?

Because I think there are some incentives built in to be the loudest, the most extreme voice.

You know, it often results in better fundraising, it results in more media exposure.

And those incentives then lead maybe to, you know, more riches, whatever it might be.

But what are the incentives that people have for getting involved in public office?

You know, so often we see, particularly at the state level, you know, the county and city level, you see people that really want to make a difference for their community.

And we need to encourage people to be getting involved in government and in politics that their incentive is to do good for others, you know, to serve their community.

And I don't quite know how we change that incentive, but right now some of the incentives are misaligned for people that want to get involved or engaged.

Amelia Powers Gardner: That is absolutely, absolutely correct.

I have received threats from both sides of the political spectrum.

I have had conservative Republicans show up and protest at my home.

I sold my house and moved because people were showing up, and they were from the right, and I'm a conservative Republican.

But I've also received very scary threats from the left.

Brian King: I think something that is important for people to recognize is as voters, as individuals who are making the decisions in the ballot box, at the ballot box about how--who's going to be elected, we have got to make sure that our candidates recognize that it's the individuals who bring common sense solutions as opposed to nonsense to the table that should get our vote.

There may be candidates out there who make us--who push our buttons in terms of "You ought to be Team Blue or you ought to be Team Red.

I'm the Team--I'm the bluest, I'm the reddest."

That's not the best candidate necessarily.

In fact, that's a red flag to me that that's not the best candidate.

The best candidate is going to say, "Put aside these party labels.

Here's what I'm trying to do.

Solve your problems that you deal with on a day to day basis."

That's the candidate I think generally is going to be the best in elected officials or in elected positions and putting in place policies to address the needs of people, because they have the common good, not-- based on common sense, not nonsense--that they're looking to further, that they're looking to promote.

Those are the individuals who ought to get our vote.

Jason Perry: In our last 40 seconds, I just want to hear a little bit about some unique positions you've had, Brian.

So, as a former elected official and even now but also as an attorney, make the case for free speech, because that could easily be something that takes a hit after this conversation.

Brian King: Right, well, I thought Amelia did a great job of saying you've got to be evenhanded in terms of how you feel and respect people's speech rights.

We all have the right to free speech.

It doesn't depend on whether I like it or not.

In fact, it's most important to protect the speech of the individuals with whom you disagree.

And that's a challenge for all of us, but it's critically important that we act in a way that protects that.

Jason Perry: Okay, thank you so much for your insights.

This is such an important conversation that I hope continues even after this program.

Thank you, and thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

The show is also available as a podcast.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

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