♪♪♪ male announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by Merit Medical and by contributions to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

Jason Perry: Tonight on "The Hinckley Report," as Senator Romney's tenure in Washington comes to a close, John Curtis prepares to take his place.

A recent audit has legislative leaders questioning the security of vote-by-mail and Utahns gather in the nation's capital to celebrate Martha Hughes Cannon.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Jason Perry: Good evening and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, Director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week, we have Aimee Winder Newton, senior advisor to the governor and member of the Salt Lake County Council; Taylor Morgan, partner at Morgan May Public Affairs; and Greg Skordas, attorney and political commentator.

So glad you're all with us.

This is an interesting week in politics.

We're gonna get through all sorts of things at the state level and at the national level.

But I want to start first with a farewell address that was given from the United States Senate from Senator Mitt Romney this week.

Aimee, let's start with you for just a moment.

He addressed his colleagues and the country as he's leaving office.

Talk about the legacy of Senator Mitt Romney.

Aimee Winder Newton: Well, I mean, you've got to hand it to him.

Here's a guy who was besmirched by members of his party when he impeached Trump, but he got stuff done.

And I think, you know, that's impressive.

The fact that he was able to build coalitions with people who were willing to work across the aisle and get legislation passed, I think is impressive in a dysfunctional Congress like we have today.

Jason Perry: Taylor, talk about it for a moment because it was that willingness to cross party lines that had a lot of supporters, but also some people on the other side, not loving that as much.

Taylor Morgan: Yeah, I think Aimee is exactly right.

That legacy of bipartisanship but not bipartisanship just for the sake of bipartisanship.

Bipartisanship, leadership to get things done like the infrastructure bill.

Mitt Romney really leaves a legacy of statesmanship and of character, of standing up for what he believes is right, regardless of the political ramifications.

And I think that role and that leadership is what led him to step down after just one term and to turn it over to the next generation, as he said.

Now, we'll see that in John Curtis, 64 years old, not perhaps quite the new generation, but definitely the next generation of leadership in the Senate.

Jason Perry: I wanna talk about John Curtis in just a moment, but Greg, maybe we'll show a little clip from this farewell address from Senator Romney and then a comment from you.

Mitt Romney: There are some today who would tear at our unity, who would replace love with hate, who deride our foundation of virtue or who debase the values upon which the blessings of heaven depend.

A country's character is a reflection not just of its elected officials, but also of its people.

I leave Washington to return to be one among them and hope to be a voice of unity and virtue.

Greg Skordas: Wow, I mean, I go back 22 years when I think of Mitt Romney and think of what he did for our state when the Olympics came.

I mean, he was the reason that those games were so successful.

And so, when he runs for Senate, you're thinking, wow, what's he going to do there?

And I agree with Aimee, he's done some--he's done some huge things.

I listened to that speech though.

There are some who would divide, there are some who would cause problems.

There are some who, and you kind of wonder who he's addressing there, whether it's the new incoming administration or just the sort of divisiveness nationwide.

But his legacy I think is secure here in Utah because he has stood up, he has done what he thought was right.

Notwithstanding politics.

And that's something that you don't see very much.

Jason Perry: It's interesting, Taylor, he ends with this idea of this unity and virtue, which I thought was interesting because it was North Carolina, Senator Thom Tillis, a Republican who was interesting.

And as he talked about Mitt Romney, his quote was, "Over the next two years, we should ask, 'What would Mitt Romney do?'"

Taylor: Yeah, I love that quote.

I think that's exactly right.

And look, for Mitt Romney to step down from the US Senate where a place where seniority is the currency of power, for him to voluntarily step down to let others have a turn at leading, that to me is his greatest act really as a US senator.

And that's something that will be remembered.

Aimee: You know, I think often people, you know, that cross the aisle get a bad rap and I look at how our country was founded.

Our founding fathers had different viewpoints and had to come together in order to found this country.

And I just think if we had a Congress full of more Joe Manchin's and Mitt Romney's, we would have had immigration solved by now, our national debt would have been at least the hole plugged for a time.

Like I think there's great things that happen when you work with people and you know how to build coalitions and he obviously did that.

Jason Perry: So, it means we should probably talk for a moment about his replacement, Greg, because people are talking about Senator elect John Curtis.

What kind of senator is he going to be?

Particularly through this lens that Aimee just gave us here, which was, he's replacing someone who is willing to cross the line.

What kind of senator will we get in John Curtis?

Greg: Well, right or wrong, when we were talking about Matt Gaetz as the next Attorney General or, yeah, United States Attorney, we heard, although it wasn't really ever proven that, in fact John Curtis had some concern about that nomination.

So, that tells me that he's willing to be a free thinker, that he's willing to think outside the political box that he's in, and make some decisions.

Now, he sort of stood back from that and said, "I had never said anything about Matt Gaetz and I'm not going to, I wasn't ever saying I wouldn't take that on," but he did say, "I would consider that vote very closely," and he didn't say I'm just gonna fall in line with what the administration suggests.

So, I think we have reason to be optimistic about John Curtis.

Jason Perry: Taylor, are we looking at him in the position like he is going to be like Mitt Romney or is he gonna find his own brand, his own path?

Taylor: Yeah, that's such a good question.

I think that John Curtis has established his own brand in Congress as a member of the House of Representatives.

He's been prolific and effective.

He's also been bipartisan, you know, John Curtis has led out on issues like climate change as a conservative Republican in the US House.

Now, I think it's so interesting in Utah that in the US Senate, Utahns have historically had this balance.

We have sent someone like a Mike Lee alongside a Mitt Romney to represent us in the US Senate and now we will have a John Curtis and Mike Lee still.

It's an interesting balance that Utah voters have sent to Washington.

I think that reflects who we are as Utahns.

We want to stand on conservative principle.

But yet we also believe in getting things done and we believe in bipartisanship.

Jason Perry: Talk about one of these--go ahead, Aimee, sorry.

And I have a question about one of his policies.

Aimee: Yeah, no, I was just gonna say, I think, you know, in Congress you have performers and you have doers and John Curtis is there to be a doer.

He is not going to be, you know, people want to pigeonhole you into, are you Trump, are you a Romney Senator?

And he is, I think he's his own guy.

He's even said, you know, "If Trump's doing something I like, I'll be wind at his back, but I'm going to stand up and disagree when I feel like I need to."

And that's the role of Congress, you know, they're not supposed to rubber stamp the executive branch.

And so, I think he's going to be very effective.

And I think he's going to be--do a great job for Utah.

Jason Perry: A couple of things he worked on, I'm just kind of curious to see how this plays in his role.

Like, for example, the Conservative Climate Caucus, you know, some of these issues that were not traditionally sort of the full wheelhouse Republicans that he has been pushing forward.

How is that going to work for him as he comes into office?

Aimee: I think it's going to do very well.

In fact, I will tell you one of the things I love about John Curtis is he figures out who does he need to convince?

For instance, he was holding dinners at his home and inviting some of the most conservative members in the state who-- Republicans in the state, who could come and hear more about his Conservative Climate Caucus and help them understand that issue and how that's so important for the state.

And I admire somebody who's gonna invite people to their home, sit down with them and have a dialogue, listen to them, but also be able to articulate what his policy plans are.

I think he's going to do great.

Greg: You know, Jason, if you look at the recent election, the general election and you look at, for example, Salt Lake County, which you would expect to be the bluest county in the state.

Kamala Harris wins Salt Lake County by 10 points.

John Curtis wins Salt Lake County.

You know what I mean?

He carries Salt Lake County and he had a credible candidate against him.

But I mean, he's very popular.

He's going to maintain that popularity, I believe.

And he's probably going to serve in the Senate as long as he wants.

But to carry virtually the entire state when Kamala Harris runs strong in certain parts of the state tells me that he's reaching that group of Democrats.

So, that group of moderates, so that group of independents who are trying to decide where they want to go.

Taylor: That's a great point.

And I recall back to the debate, the US Senate debate during which John Curtis's opponents continually referred to him as former Democrat John Curtis over and over again.

John Curtis has never run from that.

He--voters seem to like that about him.

The fact that they don't hold it against him, that he was once a Democratic mayor of Provo.

They seem to believe that that's a good thing, that he represents a broader swath of voters, that he represents the entire state and not just one party.

Jason Perry: I wanna get to some things that are happening on the federal level with the new Trump administration.

I wanna talk about a new sort of Department of Government Efficiency, DOGE as they're calling it, the Department of Government Efficiency.

Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy are the two people who are going to be running this.

It's not a governmental entity necessarily, but Aimee, talk about what is going to happen here because the goal apparently is 18 months, $2 trillion cut out.

Aimee: You know what, I--we have a $36 trillion deficit.

Like we have got to figure out how we're going to fix this.

And I love it when we bring in private sector people who have great business experience and know how to run effective, efficient operations to help figure out like what's wrong in government.

I think we can use that.

We don't need more government bureaucrats necessarily solving these problems.

We need some fresh eyes.

I think it's going to be good.

Jason Perry: Well, Taylor, this is not just any outside sources either, these are two very well known names and of course, Elon Musk, known everywhere in the world.

Taylor: Yeah, well, look, nothing says government efficiency like creating a new quasi governmental entity with not just one leader but two.

I agree with Aimee.

I'm very interested to see how this plays out.

I do like the idea of having some fresh eyes, some fresh leadership when it comes to reducing the deficit.

Honestly, Jason, I think this is just going to be very entertaining.

It's gonna make for some very good political reality TV.

And we should point out that Utah's own members of Congress Blake Moore and Mike Lee will have important roles in the new Department of Government Efficiency.

Greg: You also have to wonder Jason where $2 trillion is going to come from.

Because if you look at the military, Trump's not to let that budget be cut back.

You look at Social Security and other and other issues that Trump has already said he doesn't want to cut back.

So, where's the $2 trillion coming from?

I mean, it's a great idea and certainly Ramaswamy and Musk might have ideas on how to cut the red tape, but $2 trillion is ambitious and probably not reachable.

Taylor: Just don't cut Utah's new Passport Center.

That's my only ask.

Thank you, Senator Mitt Romney.

Jason Perry: That's pretty good.

Greg, talk about this new caucus though because, you know, Mike Lee, but, and importantly Blake Moore has been selected as the co-chair of this DOGE caucus.

Greg: I was surprised at that, but I like Blake Moore.

He's done a good job.

I mean, he's one of those moderate Republicans that you can wrap your arms around.

So, to me having him in that position, whether he chose it or not, I don't know.

I was surprised, but I'm also encouraged.

I'm also optimistic with him in that position and I saw the other co-chairs, I think there are three altogether, pretty moderate people that I think are going to take Ramaswamy and Elon Musk and say, "Okay, great ideas, guys, but can we really do this?"

Jason Perry: Does this continue to play well though this idea of cutting the budget?

Because something even Mitt Romney talked about saying this is, you know, this, the deficit or uncontrolled spending is something we need to get our hands on.

Is this more than just political rhetoric this time or is it just-- Greg: I mean, it's Trump's agenda.

I mean, he's cutting the budget.

He's cutting through the red tape and that's why he's got Elon Musk on this team in the first place.

He's got to continue that promise.

I just don't know how big of a promise he's going to keep because there aren't cuts that can be made in certain areas.

I just don't see that happening.

Taylor: Well, and really, this comes down to Donald Trump populism, Republican, new populism versus traditional conservatism.

Can Donald Trump and his administration with this Congress actually cut the budget and still hold up and fulfill campaign promises?

Aimee: Yeah, and I think Blake Moore is gonna provide a great voice on that caucus to people like the Marjorie Taylor Greenes who are maybe not going to be as willing to look at solutions.

So, it'll be good.

Jason Perry: Let's talk about the state budget for just a moment.

Of course, you know, we talked about the governor's budget last week was rolled out and this week on Monday, our legislature met, talk about this for just a minute, Aimee, too because our legislature met and they sort of adopted the consensus revenue numbers.

It's a $30.6 billion budget, but they kind of established the base budgets for the coming session.

But the outlook is not as kind of rosy as it has been in the past.

Aimee: Yeah, I mean, it's gonna be a tight budget year.

We're seeing this throughout, you know, all governments in Utah.

Part of it is because we had so much federal money infused into the budget during COVID, you know, with the ARPA funds and now those are going away.

And so, as people transition back into real life and having to figure out how to use money wisely and effectively.

It makes it tricky.

And so, I'm looking forward to some of the things the governor proposed, the Social Security tax on Social Security.

We're one of nine states that taxes Social Security and that's one of the tax cuts he's proposed.

So, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

Greg: It might be tax cuts that have got us in this problem though because the state has been so flush over the last what, five or six years that we've been able to look at tax cuts and like Aimee said, now the governor said, well, what about Social Security?

That hits close to home with me, by the way.

So, you think, well, maybe there are some ways, but we're looking at a deficit this year.

So, maybe it's a year when we don't have further tax cuts and maybe even consider something a little different.

Taylor: Easy now, Greg, I have to say, even though we do have a softening of revenues, I still look for lawmakers to try to find a way to provide another state income tax reduction.

And I think higher education might be where they find it.

It could be any of the, including maybe a tax, a child tax credit.

Aimee: Yeah, so the governor included in this budget.

Right now we have a child tax credit that covers ages 1 to 4.

This would take us down to 0 to 4.

Which those babies are so expensive, you know, when you look at child care costs or needs there for young families.

So, it's a great, hopefully that's a good one that the legislature will support.

Jason Perry: Okay, I wanna talk about an interesting audit that was just reported this week to our legislature.

It was about elections in the state of Utah, particularly when it comes to our mail-in ballots.

And the audit went through all 29 counties, they went through a few election cycles.

Let's talk about some of those results, Taylor.

I want you to take us through some of those for just a minute because there were some findings and some recommendations.

Taylor: Yeah, I think first and foremost, we should recognize the fact that this audit is a really good thing.

The fact that we have the ability throughout the state of Utah to audit our elections to this micro minute of a level.

The process works really, really well.

We should audit our elections and our elections are the national gold standard.

They should and they do hold up to this kind of scrutiny and we should be using these audits to improve the process to further refine the process.

This latest audit by the legislative audit committee found that about 1400 by mail ballots were sent to likely deceased voters.

The audit also found that two dead--deceased voters cast ballots as part of that process.

So, that will be investigated.

It will be referred to the Attorney General or, you know, if charges or prosecution needs to happen, that will happen.

I think my take away from the audit, Jason, is that our process is working really, really well.

We can still improve it, but we shouldn't toss out the nation's best election process because it has room for improvement.

Jason Perry: I wanted to throw out a quote that we had from our Speaker of the House that received this audit, had some comments I wanna, Greg if you'll give a comment to this quote, in particular because it may have some implications for this next legislative session.

This is what we heard from the Speaker of the House Mike Schultz.

He said, from this audit, "I think the question comes, is vote by mail, really as secure as in-person voting?

And based off the audits we have in front of us, it's clearly not the case.

And that's concerning to me moving forward."

Greg: I couldn't disagree more.

It clearly is the case if you look at the audit.

I mean, 2 out of 2 million voters, I mean, that's like one 10,000th of 1%.

You know what I mean?

I mean, Schultz should be that happy with his passing rate of his bills.

You know what I mean?

It's not like, hey, mail-in voters have had a bigger problem than in-person.

The same level of scrutiny takes place, the same level of identification takes place.

And we have in this state since 2013 used mail-in voting as a model of the nation.

We can't throw out the baby with the bathwater on that one.

And so, I absolutely disagree with the Speaker's statement that mail-in voting has, as a result of this audit, shown some problems.

In fact, what we saw was some of the local county clerks not doing their own internal audits and going through this 1% look see at the votes that they have versus the ballots that they have and make sure that they line up.

Several of the county clerks didn't do that.

But that doesn't mean that the voting was incorrect in any way.

In fact, just the opposite.

I think we did a great job this year in Utah.

Aimee: Yeah, no, I'll just add, I mean, anytime somebody is trying to limit access to the ballot for people, like we should be very concerned and vote-by-mail has shown to be very popular among Utahns.

It works very well.

You know, I think it's interesting for that statement to be made when we know in Utah County where that clerk encouraged people to do vote in-person.

They had 19 people who voted in-person that never checked in that they couldn't account for.

So, if somebody tries to tell me that vote-by-mail is less secure, I will fight that all day long.

I just think it--that's not the case.

It's absolutely, you've got human error in both cases and we're doing the best we can to work through any of those issues.

The Lieutenant Governor's office has been great to look at, you know, ways that we can get even better each year, but this is a great method of voting that we have here in Utah.

Taylor: Since state vote-by-mail was implemented in 2014, Utah has had the second highest rate of voter participation in the entire country.

75% of Utah voters polled just recently have a high degree of confidence and trust in the process.

The process is working really, really well and maybe for Speaker Schultz, we could take a time out and talk in the locker room and I would remind him that vote-by-mail was championed by the Utah Republican Party as a way to help more Republicans in Utah vote.

And even if that is your goal, it is working very, very well.

Jason Perry: Greg, there were some recommendations from this audit that we might see put into statute this next year about the batches being processed immediately.

This ends up being a question, you know, people, everyone wants it, the results much more quickly.

Federal grant money for camera equipment, clear guidance on the ballot video monitoring practices.

These are some of the recommendations from the audit.

Greg: And they make sense, those are good recommendations.

And I'm like you, Jason, I love to watch the election results on election night and not say, "Well, the checks in the mail.

We'll let you know in a couple of days when the votes come in."

And there's always going to be some of that.

But yeah, if we could--even the mail-in ballot process, I think they want to speed up the date, the postmark date by a day and avoid the problem we had in the Southwest corner of the state with the going through the Las Vegas post office and whatnot.

Those are things that can be fixed pretty easily.

And I think that the audit pointed out those and other things that we can do going forward so that this vote-by-mail and then the in-person voting works as well as it should, which by the way is already really, really good.

Taylor: Can I add one thing here?

If Utah lawmakers are serious about election integrity and security, then I would implore them to eliminate the Caucus Convention path to the primary election.

The state administered taxpayer funded primary election, there is zero security, zero transparency, zero accountability in that process and it cannot be audited.

Jason Perry: Interesting point, thank you for that.

I wanna get to one more celebratory item for this week because you were there.

I'm gonna start with you, Aimee, right?

Martha Hughes Cannon, her statue is now in our nation's capital replacing Philo T. Farnsworth.

You were there, talk a little bit about this event itself and why this is such a significant addition?

Aimee: Oh, it was such a great event.

You know, Martha Hughes Cannon was a wife, a mother, she was actually a polygamist.

She was a medical doctor.

She was a--she advocated for women's suffrage.

And what I think she's most famous for is she is the first female state senator elected in the United States.

So, it's so cool.

And as we were back there celebrating this, what was so neat for me to recognize is how important Utah has been in the women's suffrage movement.

I mean, we easily ratified, you know, we're one of the first states to ratify the 19th amendment.

We had given women the right to vote long before the federal government did.

We had it taken away for a time and then got it back.

But, you know, we had the first woman to actually cast a ballot after women could vote on the federal level, she was from Utah.

So, we have so many historical things about women and the right to vote and getting women in elected office.

And Utah played such an important role.

It was just a great event, so great to be there.

Jason Perry: I've heard the reports of that, Taylor, 14th woman to have a statue there in our nation's capital but just such an interesting history.

Graduated from the University of Michigan's Medical School in 1880, completed a degree in Pharmaceuticals, University of Pennsylvania in 1882, a degree from the National School of Elocution and Oratory, all by the age of 25.

Taylor: Yeah, impressive.

And of course, let's not forget her undergraduate degree from the University of Deseret.

Now, the University of Utah, my favorite part of the Martha Hughes Cannon story is that when she ran and was elected as the nation's first state senator, she ran against her husband and beat him in that election.

That's my favorite part of the story.

And I love what Lieutenant Governor Deidre Henderson said in Washington DC this week.

She said we need to pick up where Martha Hughes Cannon left off.

We need more women in office.

We need more Martha Hughes Cannons, more Deidre Henderson's, more Aimee Winder Newton's.

Our legislature and all of our offices will be so much better when they're led by women.

Greg: And I think nationally it's gotta be a little bit of a surprise that Utah has the first woman state senator elected in the country.

And that we have a woman who's one of our--in--one of our statues at Congress--at the Capital rather, you know what I mean, I mean, that, that says a lot about Utah because we're not seen as a particularly female friendly state, let's be honest.

But we really are if you look at our history and you look at what we've done and the way that we've, like Aimee said, you know, ratified the 19th amendment, the way that we've supported women in various issues.

And I think that's a good sign for the state to have her statute there.

Aimee: And I'm so grateful we have at least one woman in our federal delegation because Representative Celeste Malloy spoke at the event and, you know, I think that, it's just exciting.

It was just great.

Jason Perry: Talk about this as an elected official as well, Aimee, this coming year, we will have a record number of women in our Utah state legislature, 29%.

That's 31 women, 14 Democrats, 17 Republicans.

This has been a long time coming to get to this point, much more to do.

Talk about that though because that's historic.

Aimee: It is historic and I mean, I just think when you have both, you've got Harvard studies that show if you have both men and women at the decision making table in business, you get better outcomes.

It's true for government.

It's true in our homes and churches.

It--that is--that is good.

We need to have both men and women at the decision making table.

Lieutenant Governor talked about how you can walk around with one eye open and be able to still see.

But when you have both eyes open, you see things in a little better way.

And I just think that that's such an important thing.

So excited for the headway that we're making as a state.

Jason Perry: Talk about this for a second because it's been something you advocated for, I've heard you talk about this too, in our last 30 seconds: more women running for office.

Taylor: Yes, we need more women running for office.

You know, if I know anything about Utah politics, it really started with my mother working on her campaigns and then was built out by very strong female mentors.

Utah women are really the best possible leaders we have.

Our legislature should reflect that, 55% of all active registered voters in Utah across both major parties are women.

Yet only 30% of our legislature is women.

I would like to see that continue to change.

Jason Perry: It's gonna be the last word.

Thank you so much for your insights this evening and thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

This show is also available as a podcast on PBSutah.org, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by Merit Medical and by contributions to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

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