- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, another mass shooting uncaps an outpour of frustrations and demands for gun control.

Our panel offers their perspective, plus a special feature on Wilson and how this small town is overcoming systemic issues by helping to make Main Street everyone's street.

Stay with us.

[upbeat music] ♪ Welcome to Black Issues Forum.

I'm Kenia Thompson, in for Deborah Holt Noel.

Many small cities face challenges as they grow.

But for Wilson, North Carolina, those challenges bring new opportunities for diversity and hope for the future.

But before we get to that, our guests and we here at Black Issues Forum believe it's important that we have an open conversation about the sadness our nation has had to face in recent days.

It's just been over a week since we've had to deal with the aftermath of the shooting in Buffalo, where 10 people were killed and three others reported injured.

And now, here we are again, facing another horrific mass murder by assault weapon.

Two small communities left devastated by the acts of two killers, both just 18 years old.

And a country afire would debate about what to do to make us safer.

I welcome the mayor of Wilson, Carlton Stevens who is also a gun store owner and a member of the National Rifle Association, Dr. Mark Little, the executive director of Create-NC and Bea Ethridge of Banking on the Culture With Ms Bea.

Thank you all for being here.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Thanks.

- I know we're all eager to talk about the development and opportunity in Wilson and small cities like it but we all know how important this topic is, especially now as we're facing hard realities as it pertains to gun control and ownership.

The past several days have seen an explosion of tweets and social posts from celebrities, politicians and American citizens crying out in disgrace over yet another school shooting.

Students, teachers, and families, all of Uvalde, Texas's Robb Elementary School are reeling after an 18 year old gunman opened fire and killed 19 children and two teachers this week.

Mayor Stevens, as a gun shop owner and a member of the NRA, how does this make you feel?

- It's sad.

It is very sad.

Being a father of young children, I just think, that could have been my child and it's, my heart goes out to those families that are in Texas.

Until I walk in their shoes, I wouldn't know exactly how they're feeling but just looking at my children, knowing that that could have been my baby or one of my children, it tears my heart out.

- Yeah, for sure.

It's so devastating to think, even as a mom, myself.

Joy Behar just tweeted, of The View, the other day, she shared her frustrations with what seemed to be a consistent excuse of mental illness in these cases.

She said, "I want them to stop gaslighting, stop saying guns don't kill people.

Stop saying that mental illness is behind this.

There's mental illness in every country in the world.

And they don't have this problem."

Mark, what is your take on the mental illness excuse that seems to accompany many of these types of incidents in our country?

- Yeah, I guess I'll say similar to the mayor, I'm also a parent of of small young children and I hope I'm never in the situation that those parents are in.

But specifically to the mental health component of this, I don't wanna try to understand the motivations of different folks that may be making those claims, but this is a very complicated issue.

And I think personally that guns are the problem.

I think people who seek out guns to kill people are the problem.

I think there's broader issues around safety and I think fear is something that really drives a lot of this.

One of the things I've been thinking about recently is, I think schools shouldn't have to be hardened, right?

The fact that we're in a position where we're trying to see like, okay the school resource officer wasn't there, the door was unlocked, those kinds of things.

Those are important.

And those may have been made a difference in this particular case.

But if we take a step back and we look we're in a situation where we have to do that kind of thing for schools with young children.

That to me is a much bigger problem and one that is very complicated and has lots of solutions possible, one some new laws, some cultural, all kinds of things.

- For sure.

Many of us remember Sandy Hook and the devastation that happened on that day in Connecticut.

The daughter of one of the teachers murdered that day tweeted, "thoughts and prayers didn't bring my mother back after she was gunned down in that hallway at Sandy Hook.

They also won't bring back the 21 murdered at Robb Elementary School back to life.

It is beyond time to take action."

This question is to you, Bea, what is it that, why is it that these loopholes that make it so easy for an 18 year old to obtain guns still exist, in your opinion?

- Well, in my opinion, I believe that it is the perspective of the gun sellers, the manufacturers because their goal is to sell their merchandise.

Having these things happen, reoccurring and getting more aggressive and more targeted, it's intentional.

I believe and I support having tighter controls on those laws to buy the weapons.

I agree with Mark and it's the person with the intention behind what they're doing with the weapon that's killing all of the students and even those who were in New York.

So that's, I just feel it's the intent behind the manufacturing of the guns but also knowing that they are used for protection.

- [Kenia Thompson] Right.

- It still should be relevant.

- Yeah.

And, it's a hard space to be in, right?

- Mm-hmm [affirmative].

- Because, we do look to these weapons for protection, but in the same instances people are using them to devastate communities to kill and murder people for, you know, unforeseen reasons.

When we look back to the shooting in Buffalo, for example, and how the motives behind that shooting was racially driven.

You know, Mayor, what are some of the honest problems, honest perspectives of the gun laws that we are kind of ignoring when it comes to these 18 year olds being able to go out and purchase guns for these purposes?

- Okay, so I'm glad you asked me that question.

Let, just be real about it.

Manufacturers make guns to make money.

All right.

So, I think money drives a lot of decisions and issues that are made.

The NRA is a big backer of a lot of senators and congressmen.

And so, they are going to do what they feel like they need to do in order to keep that money coming, because that's what keeps you in office, all right.

Especially when it's time to run again.

Now, you know, and it's sad to say that I'm a veteran, all right.

And, when I went into the military I was around 18 years old.

My first experience shooting a gun period was shooting an M16.

And, an M16 is very similar to an AR-15.

All right?

And, I had drill sergeants and I had people around to teach me how to do that.

Now, let's say right now someone were to come to me and say, "Carlton, I wanna buy an AR-15."

Well, if you are 18 years old, and you don't have any prior mental illnesses that are documented or you don't have any prior felonies that are documented, I can sell you an AR-15 with 100-round drum and just put it in your hands and you can walk out the store, as long as I do the FFL Form 4473, I think.

I do that.

The feds will say, "Approve or pending or disapprove."

And, unless you've done something really bad or you do have documented mental illness you're gonna walk out.

Now, the same 18 year old can come to me and say, "Carlton I want to buy a, a little 22, a Derringer."

Let's say you wanna buy 22 Derringer that only holds two shots.

I cannot sell you that gun, because you are not 21.

- [Female Speaker] Right.

And, I think we have it completely backwards.

We've gotta do something, and we've gotta do something really fast.

If not, the things that happened in Texas the thing that happened in New York they're gonna continue to happen.

- Yes.

They will.

They will continue to happen unless we find solutions.

Even when we look at private gun sales, those aren't necessarily regulated, correct?

- Exactly.

They're not.

A private gun, as long as you are of a certain age, a private gun sale outside of someone that has a FFL license is completely legal, you know, completely legal.

So, honestly at age 18, you can get a handgun.

You can get whatever type of gun you want to get if you get it from a private individual, you know, which is not, it's not good.

It's just simply not good.

I'm not going to get on my soapbox, but you know, there are certain things that you have to be 21 years old to do.

- Mm-hmm [affirmative] - For instance, drinking.

You can't drink until you're 21, but you can buy a gun that's designed to destroy flesh- - Yeah.

- At age 18, that's designed to go to war.

What kind of sense does that make?

We're just backwards, and I am a member of the NRA, and I'm, you know, and I'm, you know I'm not gonna say I'm a proud member.

I am a member of the NRA, and I'm a member for certain reasons.

- Yeah.

- However, you know, things have to change.

And, until we have these hard conversations and people stop allowing money to drive their decisions and allow common sense, and what's the right thing to drive their decisions, we're gonna be in the same place.

- You're right.

And, I thank you for having this conversation.

I know it's not an easy one to have.

- Oh no.

Yeah.

- Small businesses disparities are caused by stark and persistent inequities in race, wealth and access to capital.

And, these disparities play an important role in creating a more equitable business environment.

Let's take a look at our featured story today on how Wilson, North Carolina is doing their best to provide these equitable opportunities, to as many people as possible.

- Within a community that feels as though their voice has never been heard.

- [Female Speaker] Those voices belong to the residents of Wilson, North Carolina, a city that historically hasn't always provided space for the minorities that live there.

Newly elected mayor, Carlton Stevens reflects on the division that has plagued the city and how he intends to eradicate the barriers.

- In Wilson, there's a east, west diversion or division more so.

I wanted to get rid of that.

So, my campaign slogan was One Wilson.

- [Female Speaker] Unfortunately, this separation isn't something that's exclusive to Wilson.

North Carolina realtor and Rocky Mount resident, Jennifer Wiggins, recognizes the same disparities within her community.

- It's kind of divided along racial lines.

So, you have Nash county, mostly with one community.

And then, the minority community is mostly in Edgecombe.

- [Female Speaker] Kimberly Van Dyk, planning and community revitalization director for the city of Wilson actively looks for opportunities to bring efforts of revitalization to the inner groups and communities of Wilson.

- We have focused largely in the last 15 years on center city revitalization.

- I live 30 minutes away from Wilson, and coming here and seeing how the business and the unity and the pride that they have here and how they're investing and pulling themselves up.

And, I'd like to see that in Rocky Mount as well.

- We have been able to really grow public and private investment in these areas, as well as help scores of small businesses.

Many of them, women owned, minority owned and really seeing them grow and develop.

- [Female Speaker] With some of the state's most historic sites and locations, Wilson is certainly embedded in the fabric of this country.

And, history shows us how economic and social frustrations deeply affect people of color who hold over 50% of this city's population.

- America was not built on equality for everyone.

- When, when they tell the stories of what's happening in Rocky mountain and not section it off in certain areas As a realtor, it's challenging for me to convince people who feel disenfranchised to feel that they can come and be a part.

- I'm letting them know, you have a seat at the table.

Now, my mindset, I go buy a chair and take my own seat to the table.

- There are a lot of challenges as far as representation on higher levels.

We have a ceiling where you will come in, and we're mostly in call centers or we're in back office roles, but you don't see us as the CEOs, you don't see us as the senior vice presidents.

But despite some of those struggles, the hope is to create space for everyone, especially entrepreneurs, to feel included in the growth of this small town.

- The experience that we wanna create for entrepreneurs is environment of inclusivity.

We want all sorts of different entrepreneurs to be able to come here and feel welcome, and feel like they have a place to grow their venture here in Wilson.

- Usually, when you hear about a small town, you think there's not much going on, but they always seem to be thinking ahead.

- [Bea] There is hope that the growth Wilson has seen will continue to provide spaces and places for all to be heard, and those voices that choose not to see the opportunity for collaboration and inclusion will be silenced by the city's ongoing success.

- They are the loud minority.

The silent majority, we're moving forth, and we are progressing.

Now, they're going to continue to fuss.

[car muffler roars] They're gonna be just as loud as that muffler, right?

But just like that muffler's going away, they're going to go away, and we're still here.

We're going to stay, and that's the way it is.

- We're back again with Mayor Stevens, Bea Ethridge and Dr. Mark Little.

Mayor Stevens and Bea, you're both from Wilson, and as we heard from the story, things haven't always been as progressive as they appear today.

Bea, what continues to be an issue in cities and communities like Wilson as they expand?

- Personally, I feel that it is the voice of the voiceless, those who have lived through the historical challenges in the communities, who don't often get an opportunity to be heard, and so when changes are made, they are not always included in those decisions, and sometimes have a different perception because of the impact.

And so in cities such as ours, there's still a struggle to make sure that there's equality and equity and accessibility on both areas of our city, and although we are doing amazing work in certain areas, it's still the impact and how it's perceived from those who may not have been included in those decisions.

So I believe that transparency and inclusion helps in making everyone feel valued and like they belong in the city.

That's still a challenge.

- Yeah, it certainly is, and inclusion isn't just something that we just check the box for.

- Exactly.

- Right.

- Exactly.

- As we continue to have these conversations surrounding race, Mark, can small cities really be the game changer in this ongoing race war?

- I think it's possible.

One of the things that small cities have an advantage of is actually the size.

So if you think of a smaller town, maybe even smaller than Wilson, if you're thinking about who's employed, who's not employed, who owns businesses, who doesn't, you can make significant changes in the demographics of that with some small wins, and so if you have a small number of people and some resources together in a smaller community, you can make changes.

Rocky Mount was mentioned in the piece that you showed.

If you look at all the cities in North Carolina, and you look at the percentage of businesses that are black owned by population, Rocky Mount does better than Durham.

People talk about Durham and the black community of Durham, but Rocky Mount actually does better, and part of that is because of the size.

The flip side of that is you can, as the mayor mentioned in that video, some of those mufflers, some of those people making noise, sometimes they don't leave, and sometimes they own land, and sometimes they own resources, and they can be the people that stand in the way of anything happening.

We're working in a unnamed small town in eastern North Carolina right now, and the whole main street is basically on lock by landowners that don't wanna do any development, majority African American town, and so that place is trying to figure out, how do we even make a change if the majority of the population wants to do something, but we physically can't?

- Right.

- We don't have access to the buildings and places.

- Wow.

- So how do we?

You said something key there.

The main streets are on lock, and part of the package to this was thinking about, how do we make our Main Streets our streets?

So what are some of those tactics when everything really, literally, is on lock?

How do people make that change when it seems almost impossible?

- Well, I'll just say, having a wonderful mayor can make a big difference.

There are things that cities can do with properties that are dilapidated, and then also you can make a new Main Street, and so thinking differently and creatively about the space that you do have control over, and the resources, talking particularly about African American communities, there are significant land resources in the African American community, and just different mindset.

- Yeah.

- You know?

- Great point, Mayor, I maybe heard you trying to interject there with either affirmations of support.

Any thoughts or contributions you have to that question?

- Well, I must say, Mark hit the nail on the head.

If you have a city that just refuses to do the right thing and have progression, then you have to have a mayor and a city council, or a town council, whatever the city may have, that's willing to step out on a ledge and say, listen, we are going to invest in this and move forward, because you cannot allow anyone or anything to stop you from moving forward.

My pastor often says, and no pun intended, his statement is one monkey does not stop the show.

If the monkey don't do, get a baboon, and so maybe some cities just need to go out and buy some baboons.

- [laughs] I've never heard it put that way before, but let's talk about it.

When we're experiencing some of these challenges that you've had in your role as mayor, right?

How do we change the viewpoints of those that are slowing down that rate of change?

That muffler.

- Well, actually, again, what Mark said is, well, first, let me clarify.

We have not run into that situation in our city.

You know, we were so fortunate.

We're so blessed that most of the, the majority of the people in Wilson, especially owners of businesses or buildings downtown, they were wanting to move forward.

It was a desire of theirs, you know?

But there were other places that we wanted to possibly have for a future.

So what did we do?

We stepped down on a ledge, and as the city, we purchased that land, or we purchased that building, knowing that in our five year plan or our 10 year plan, we are going to use this piece of property for something, you know, and those dilapidated homes.

Now we are in the process of trying to eradicate our dilapidated homes, right?

Because it brings down the property value, and it's just an eye sore, and we all know that most of those dilapidated homes are in the African American community, majority of them.

- Yeah, unfortunately.

- But what we are doing instead of just tearing houses down, we are actually trying to find a way to work, do a private partnership with organizations that will bring in affordable homes.

You know, so that's how we're continuing to progress.

Our downtown, our city manager is, I don't know, I don't remember where he is from, but he came in with a mindset that we are going to make change.

Now, Kenya, if you allow me to say, you have to get rid of that good old board network, until that is no longer the case in whatever city, you're going to have this repeated.

But once you break that good old board network, then you'll see the progression and you'll see.

And it's not the amount of money that they have.

It's the hearts of the people.

And if they don't want it, if they don't want to have it the way it's always been, they'll be willing to change.

- Yeah, for sure.

And a lot of that conversation also, is focused around finances, right?

And the resources and education.

So Bee, I come to you as a DEI expert in this space, especially as it pertains to finance.

Are minorities in small businesses equipped with the information and the resources they need in small cities like Wilson to actually succeed?

- Kenya, I'm so happy you asked me that question because that is a pain point.

That's a blind spot that a lot of people don't see.

From slum lords, you know, you have these minority businesses, these African American businesses, who want to even rent property, but the buildings are not up to standard, or they may be charged triple the amount just for applications, just for- The challenges that the business owner goes through, having a community of resources, our city, we decided to come together as minority business owners to collectively see what resources are out there.

Are there opportunities for education?

Being in the financial industry, when it comes to the structure of your business, that's one, I would say deficit, that I've noticed a lot in the black community, is when we come to open our business bank account, we may not even have the business structured.

And so working in partnership with our community, Small Business Center is a resource where they teach you how to write your business plan.

We have an excellent Small Business Center.

We tap into the resources in our community to make sure that every business owner can have access and education, making sure they're working with our planning and development.

So they'll understand the coding and not go and rent from the slum lord or rent from that property owner.

And it not to be the correct building for the business that they want.

So, having conversations, we have meetings at right now, at our current local Chamber of Commerce where the black businesses of Wilson meet once a month, and they come together and I see that there's a hunger, there's a desire for us to have access.

And so I love being able to be a resource, an influencer, a networker, and our community has so much, but it's takes champions to go out there and find those resources and bring it back to the community so we know what we have amongst us.

- Yes, for sure.

And so when we talk about those champions, Mark, last question to you.

When we look at generation to generation, what do we need to do on an individual level to make sure that this success continues to happen in our cities?

- So, one thing that I think is really important is for people to understand different kinds of power.

And the mayor spoke to this a little bit about, just because some folks maybe own buildings, or have financial resources, that's not the whole story.

People, people united can make a huge difference.

And so one piece of advice would be, if you have a community of people who want change, get part of the group and support the group.

Even if that one thing they're working on, isn't maybe your top priority, you'll get to your priority later.

Like, that unity, that focus can move mountains.

- Beautiful, thank you so much, Mark.

I want to thank today's guest for joining us today.

We invite you engage with us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsc.org/blackissuesforum, or listen at any time on Apple iTunes, Spotify, or Google Podcasts.

For Black Issues Forum I'm Kenya Thompson.

Thanks for watching.

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