ANGIE MILES: To provide some context on what's led to the legal turn of events for former President Donald Trump.

We asked Professor Larry Sabato, founder and director of the University of Virginia Center for Politics.

He is also author or editor of two dozen books on American politics, and he joins us now with his perspective.

Thank you for joining us, Dr. Sabato.

LARRY SABATO: Thank you, Angie.

ANGIE MILES: This is the shoe that people have been watching and now it's dropped.

How significant is it for a former United States president to be indicted or to be arrested?

LARRY SABATO: Well, as you suggest, it's history, so that means it's never happened before.

And it's not an impossibility that this is just the first of a number of indictments coming from other sources, not from the New York Manhattan D.A., but from Georgia and a special counsel that the Attorney General has appointed and perhaps from other directions.

There are other things bubbling out there, but this one is significant, though I don't think it's as significant as other cases that may well come to maturation.

ANGIE MILES: In this matter particularly, it was 2018 when Michael Cohen was tried and was convicted as coconspirator number two.

There was wide speculation at the time that coconspirator number one was, in fact, Donald Trump.

And we're wondering, what do you think was the reason for the time lapse?

Why so long between 2018 and now?

LARRY SABATO: There was disagreement in the Manhattan D.A.

's office with a previous D.A.

This one was elected fairly recently, and the prior D.A.

came to the conclusion that it would be difficult to prosecute and get a judgment against former President Trump.

This prosecutor's taking another look at it has involved other people, other analysts, other views.

And he has come to a very different conclusion.

As I suggest, it's possible that Trump will be convicted in the end.

It's also possible that he won't.

And in any event, I don't think this is the strongest case that will be before us concerning former President Trump.

ANGIE MILES: Okay.

You mentioned those other cases.

Some people say that all of it is deep state or a witch hunt.

Is this political?

LARRY SABATO: Anything involving a president or former president is going to be political to one degree or another.

But there's another principle at stake here.

No one is above the law.

Those of us who lived through Watergate remember this very well.

It was the argument used to process and prosecute eventually President Nixon and those around him.

Now, President Nixon was pardoned by his successor, President Gerald Ford, but most of his underlings went to jail, just as Michael Cohen, the attorney for the Trump Organization, went to jail.

And there are others around President Trump who probably will before it's over.

ANGIE MILES: So the former president has been calling for some time for there to be protests, push back.

His legal team has said it would be an all out war.

Should we be concerned about threats of violence or something on the scale of January 6th?

LARRY SABATO: We have to be concerned now.

Again, every American under the First Amendment has the right to protest, to to redress grievances, before the government to express himself or herself.

That's guaranteed.

But it's pretty clear from two events.

First, Charlottesville in 2017, which I'm familiar with because I watched it, and the January 6, 2021, when President Trump himself using Twitter, encouraged his followers to come and said, “It will be wild.

” He knew some of what was going on, he knew some of these organizations, including The Proud Boys and others, were planning on making a major stand and trying to reverse the election results really overturn an election.

So I think President Trump, when he says, “Protest, take our country back.

” it has more meaning than it would be if it were uttered or written by another president.

ANGIE MILES: Are we talking about a domino here as we consider these other brewing cases, possible brewing charges?

What do you feel is the strongest potential case against Donald Trump?

And are we going to see more charges as the domino falls?

LARRY SABATO: If I were President Trump, I would worry more about the special counsel Jack Smith, appointed by Attorney General Merrick Garland than anything else.

He has quite a record and is considered a very serious judge, very careful to adhere to the law.

And he appears to be moving toward some kind of action against former President Trump with regard to not just the documents that were taken to Mar-a-Lago, but the fact that President Trump would not yield those documents and may, may have lied to his own lawyer or lawyers about what he had in his possession.

This is serious business.

And people say, ‘Well, President Biden had some documents and Vice President Pence had some had some classified documents.

That's all true.

But they turned them over immediately and cooperated fully.

President Trump did anything but cooperate fully, and he clearly tried to hang on to many of the items that under law, he's not supposed to have.

ANGIE MILES: A difference in the, in the response.

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Nixon presidency and resignation.

And you said no one is above the law, something that was quoted frequently during that period.

And as you said, his successor, Gerald Ford, in the Nixon case, did pardon him, saying that it was in the best interests of the country not to prosecute a former president.

Do you see that sort of reading of the tea leaves in a case like this with Donald Trump?

LARRY SABATO: It's always sketchy to bet, but I would bet a large sum of money that President Biden will not be pardoning former President Trump now if a Republicans elected in the 2024 election.

It's always possible that they could even pledge to do so during the election campaign.

Who knows?

It may be President Trump himself, and under some interpretations of the pardoning power of President Trump, if he became president again in 2025, might well be able to pardon himself.

ANGIE MILES: That is somewhat mind boggling to consider what that turn of events might be like.

On the political front once more.

We know that the that there were GOP members of Congress who made what seemed an attempt at pressure on Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan prosecutor who talked about defunding his position or positions like his to try and stop this train.

What are the ramifications of that?

A political approach to what is really a legal matter?

LARRY SABATO: Well, it's irresponsible but they can call for it because they know there's zero chance of it happening.

It would be stopped in a Democratic Senate.

And if somehow it got out of the Senate, as well as the House, again, I put a very large bet that President Biden would be vetoing that.

And there's no way that you have the votes in either the House or the Senate to overcome a veto.

ANGIE MILES: Well, thank you so much.

We're talking about history, of course, in the case of Donald Trump and the various legal crises swirling around him.

Thank you, Larry Sabato, for bringing us your expertize on this matter.

ANGIE MILES: I enjoyed talking to you, Angie.

Thank you.