♪ MUSIC REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

>>LORENE: HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO A VERY SPECIAL EDITION OF REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

OUR GUEST TODAY IS VALERIE PLAME, FORMER CIA COVERT OFFICER AND IN THIS TIME OF CLASSIFIED INFORMATION AND TOP-SECRET DOCUMENTS, I REALLY WANT TO TALK WITH YOU, WELCOME VALERIE, ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL WITH THE FAILURE TO RESPECT TOP SECRET DOCUMENTS AND WHAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT HAS DONE THAT MANY PEOPLE FEEL HAS PUT OUR NATION AT RISK.

>>VALERIE: THANK YOU, LORENE, IT'S ALWAYS SUCH A PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU.

I WISH WE WERE TOGETHER IN THE SAME ROOM, BUT THIS IS THE NEXT BEST THING.

>>LORENE: SO WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE AND I THOUGHT EVERYONE KNEW WHAT TOP SECRET MEANT AND WHAT CLASSIFIED MATERIALS MEANT, BUT CLEARLY SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T DO A LOT OF READING DIDN'T EVER GET THIS MESSAGE OR JUST DIDN'T CARE BECAUSE THE FORMER PRESIDENT SOMETIMES FEELS THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE TO FOLLOW THE RULES THAT EVERYONE ELSE FOLLOWS.

SO WOULD YOU EDUCATE US JUST GOING IN ON WHY CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS ARE SO IMPORTANT AND WHY OUR NATIONAL SECURITY IS REALLY RIDING ON PEOPLE RESPECTING THE TOP SECRETNESS OF THESE DOCUMENTS.

>>VALERIE: SURE, THANKS, LORENE.

FIRST OF ALL THERE'S THREE LEVELS OF CLASSIFICATION, TOP SECRET AND THERE ARE SOME SUBCATEGORIES TO THAT, SECRET AND THEN CONFIDENTIAL.

AND DOCUMENTS ARE CLASSIFIED FOR A REASON BECAUSE AT THE TOP SECRET LEVEL, FOR SURE, IF THAT INFORMATION WERE TO GET OUT, WAS TO BE MADE PUBLIC, IT CAN HAVE SOME SERIOUS DELETERIOUS EFFECTS ON OUR NATIONAL SECURITY.

AND IN FACT, IN SOME CASES IT COULD LEAD TO DEATH BECAUSE IF AGENTS' NAMES ARE REVEALED, SOURCES AND METHODS, THESE SORT OF THINGS, THAT'S WHY AROUND OUR MOST SACRED SECRETS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT EVERYTHING TO DO WITH NUCLEAR, HAVING TO DO WITH HUMAN SOURCES, THEY ARE GENERALLY CLASSIFIED AT THE TOP SECRET LEVEL BECAUSE RELEASE OF THAT INFORMATION WOULD BE VERY, VERY HARMFUL.

SO WE KNEW LAST YEAR, OF COURSE, THIS HAS BEEN SORT OF A BIT OF A SLOW ROLLING STORY.

WHEN THE FBI FINALLY RAIDED MAR-A-LAGO, THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S FLORIDA RESIDENCE AND FOUND DOCUMENTS THAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE RETURNED AS ONE SHOULD WHEN YOU LEAVE THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENCY.

THESE ARE NOT YOUR PERSONAL SOUVENIRS, EVERYTHING NEEDS TO GO BACK, EVEN WHEN YOU GET, WHEN THE PRESIDENT RECEIVES GIFTS, YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE DOCUMENTED AND IF THEY'RE ABOVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT YOU'RE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO KEEP THEM.

REMEMBER, THE WHITE HOUSE IS OUR HOUSE, THE PRESIDENT IS WORKING FOR US, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

SO THESE ARE NOT HIS PERSONAL PAPERS.

WHEN THE INDICTMENT CAME DOWN WITH THE SPECIFICS, NOW TEN DAYS AGO, APPROXIMATELY, IT WAS EVEN MORE SHOCKING THAN WHAT WE SAW IN THOSE FIRST PICTURES BECAUSE IT WAS VERY SPECIFIC AND IT WAS DRY, IT WAS LEGAL, IT WAS JUST GOING THROUGH JUST THE FACTS, MA'AM, HERE'S WHAT WE KNOW, HERE'S HOW IT WAS HANDLED, AND ALL OF THIS HAPPENED AFTER THESE DOCUMENTS HAD BEEN REQUESTED, AFTER THE SUBPOENA HAD BEEN, YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAD TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF PATIENCE WITH FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IN TRYING TO RETRIEVE THESE HIGHLY CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS AND HE SIMPLY REFUSED AND NOT ONLY REFUSED, BUT LIED, INSTRUCTED HIS LAWYERS TO LIE, IT'S ALWAYS A COVERUP THAT GETS YOU, ISN'T IT?

SO, I KNOW I CAN SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND MY FORMER COLLEAGUES NO MATTER WHAT THEIR PARTISAN STRIPE IS THAT THIS FELT LIKE SUCH A SLAP IN THE FACE TO THOSE OF US WHO LITERALLY HAVE GIVEN OUR LIVES, OUR CAREERS, TO PROTECTING THESE SECRETS.

AND TO HAVE THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF TREAT THEM IN SUCH A RECKLESS FASHION IT JUST MADE MY HEAD TURN AROUND.

>>LORENE: WELL, ALSO WE TAKE CIVICS IN SCHOOL AND MOST PEOPLE HAVE A SENSE OF PRO PATRIA MORI, THAT MY COUNTRY COMES FIRST AND NOT MY ENLIGHTENED SELF-INTEREST OR WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME.

AND APPARENTLY THAT MESSAGE DIDN'T, IT'S PERHAPS THOUGHT THAT TRUMP WAS SEEKING TO MONETIZE SOME OF THIS INFORMATION AND IT'S PERHAPS THOUGHT THAT HE ALREADY DID BECAUSE PEOPLE WONDER, THIS IS JUST UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMOR, WELL, WHY DO THE SAUDIS GIVE HIS SON-IN-LAW, JARED, $2 BILLION, WHAT WAS THAT, JUST BECAUSE HE'S CUTE?

>>VALERIE: HE'S SO CHARMING.

BUT THAT IS LORENE, I DON'T DISAGREE WITH YOU, BUT THAT IS JUST SPECULATION.

>>LORENE: IT IS SPECULATION.

>>VALERIE: ULTIMATELY, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HIS MOTIVATIONS WERE.

I'VE READ A LOT OF ARTICLES, YOU KNOW ABOUT HIS PERSONALITY AND HIS NEED TO HOLD ON TO THINGS AND HIS DESIRE TO, TO SHOW OFF ALL OF THAT STUFF, THAT'S WONDERFUL, IF YOU'RE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND A PERSON'S MOTIVATION TO DO SO, BUT IT IS STILL ILLEGAL, CUT AND DRY, IT'S ABSOLUTELY ILLEGAL.

AND I CAN TELL YOU FOR SURE THAT BACK IN THE DAYS WHEN I WAS WORKING AT CIA HEADQUARTERS OR WORKING OVERSEAS, IF I EVEN HAD ONE PIECE OF CLASSIFIED PAPER ON MY DESKTOP AT THE END OF THE DAY THAT HAD NOT BEEN SECURELY STORED, I WOULD'VE FACED SERIOUS REPERCUSSIONS, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE DO.

IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT THIS CLASSIFIED INFORMATION IS KEPT CLOSE HOLD.

BUT I DO HAVE TO JUST GO BACK TO JUST FOR A MOMENT ON WHAT YOU WERE SAYING ABOUT HOW MOST PEOPLE HAVE A SENSE OF COUNTRY FIRST AND I LIKE TO THINK THAT, BUT I'M AFRAID WE ARE IN AN ERA NOW AND I HOPE IT CHANGES, BUT WE SEE IT ON A DAILY BASIS THAT THAT IS NOT TRUE.

OUR POLITICIANS ARE PLAYING FOR THEIR TEAM, WHICHEVER ONE THAT IS AND IT'S VERY DISTURBING BECAUSE IT EATS AT THE VERY FABRIC OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

WHEN I SERVED OVERSEAS, WHEN OUR SERVICEMEN AND WOMEN ARE SERVING OVERSEAS, YOU'RE A STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICER, YOU'RE NOT SERVING AS A REPUBLICAN OR AS A DEMOCRAT OR A LIBERTARIAN, NO, YOU SERVE AS AN AMERICAN.

AND THIS IS WHAT HAS, AS WE UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT WHAT'S COMING OUT FROM THE JANUARY 6TH INVESTIGATION AND THE FOLLOW ON AND SO FORTH, THAT QUITE SIMPLY THE CONSTITUTION WAS, AS MUCH AS THEY LOVED TO WAVE ROUND THEIR LITTLE COPIES, IT WAS COMPLETELY TRAMPLED ON IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.

>>LORENE: WELL, ALSO, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK ON NUCLEAR NON-PROLIFERATION.

I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS FACING OUR WORLD TODAY, AND I KNOW YOU SPENT YEARS WORKING ON THAT AND WELL PROBABLY BEHIND THE SCENES BE WORKING ON IT.

YOU KNOW, IT'S A CALLING FOR YOU, A MISSION FOR YOU.

>>VALERIE: IT IS, IT'S MY PASSION.

THERE'S TWO EXISTENTIAL THREATS THAT WE FACE, THE NUCLEAR ONE AND CLIMATE CHANGE AND TO IGNORE EITHER ONE OF THEM, IT'S AT OUR PERIL FOR SURE, BECAUSE AS I LIKE TO ALWAYS SAY, NO MATTER WHAT YOU CARE ABOUT, WHETHER IT'S WOMEN'S REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS OR IMMIGRATION OR WHATEVER IT IS, GUN CONTROL, NONE OF THOSE MATTER IF THOSE TWO ARE NOT ADDRESSED IN A GLOBAL, UNIFIED FASHION.

>>LORENE: SO THERE WAS A RAID, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE MADE A RAID ON MAR-A-LARGO WHERE THEY FOUND OVER 700 HIGHLY CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS, WHICH HE HAD REFUSED TO RETURN TO THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES, ALTHOUGH MANY TIMES HE SAID, OH, WE GAVE EVERYTHING BACK, AND THEN THEY WOULD COME IN AGAIN AND FIND MORE.

BUT, WHEN ASKED TO JUSTIFY THIS, BECAUSE BRETT BAIER, THE OTHER NIGHT ON FOX NEWS SAID, WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST GIVE THEM BACK AND THE MENTAL GYMNASTICS HE DID, OF ALL THE EXPLANATIONS.

FIRST HE SAID BECAUSE THEY ARE MY BOXES AND THEN HE SAID THE BOXES WERE PLANTED AND THEN THAT HE JUST DECLASSIFIED EVERYTHING AND THEN THE BOXES HAD PERSONAL THINGS LIKE HIS GOLF SHIRTS AND PANTS AND CLOTHING AND SHOES.

NOW WHO PUTS, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE BANKER'S BOXES, DOCUMENT BOXES, WHO PUTS THEIR GYM SHOES IN THERE?

ANYWAY, IT WAS SO MUCH SO THAT PEOPLE WERE MAKING FUN OF HIM.

I THINK NICOLE WALLACE CALLED HIM A CRAZY HOARDER, AND WILLIAM BARR, THE FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL.

>>VALERIE: IT WOULD BE FUNNY IF HIGHLY CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS WEREN'T INVOLVED.

I MEAN, HIS NOTION THAT YOU CAN JUST THINK ABOUT IT AND DECLASSIFY, TOTALLY WRONG, LORENE, JUST FOR THE RECORD, YOU CAN'T.

>>LORENE: BUT HE TRIED THAT ONE OUT.

AND WILLIAM BARR EVEN SAID, IF WHAT TRUMP SAYS IS TRUE, HE IS TOAST BECAUSE HE WAS ACTUALLY INCRIMINATING HIMSELF.

THE OTHER ONE THAT I LOVE, ONE OF THE PUNDITS SAID, TRUMP HAS THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO REMAIN SILENT.

>>VALERIE: IT'S A GREAT LINE, IT'S A GREAT LINE >>LORENE: YES, IT IS, IT IS.

SO, THE COURT DATE IS SET FOR AUGUST, 2023, HE'S INDICTED ON 37 FELONY COUNTS.

AGAIN, THE QUESTION IS WHY DIDN'T HE JUST GIVE THEM BACK, BUT HE LIED AND NOW HE'S JUST DIGGING HIS HOLE DEEPER AND DEEPER.

TALK TO ME A LITTLE ABOUT JACK SMITH, THE SPECIAL COUNSEL OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

>>VALERIE: BY ALL THE COUNTS, A TRUE PROFESSIONAL.

HE HAS PROSECUTED WAR CRIMINALS, HE SEEMS PRETTY MUCH A STRAIGHT ARROW.

BIDEN HAS WORKED REALLY, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS WORKED REALLY HARD TO DEPOLITICIZE THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THAT HAD BEEN RAMPED UP AND REALLY DISTORTED DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

OBVIOUSLY, THOSE ON THE RIGHT AND TRUMP'S ALLIES DON'T SEE IT AS SUCH, BUT IT SEEMS THAT WHENEVER ANYTHING GOES AGAINST THEM, THEY THINK THAT THERE'S SOME BIG PLAY GOING ON THAT, YOU KNOW THAT THERE'S FRAUD AND MEDDLING AND IN FACT, JACK SMITH SEEMS LIKE A REALLY STRAIGHT ARROW.

HE KNOWS WHAT'S AT STAKE AND IN FACT, I'VE READ JUST RECENTLY THAT AN ANALYSIS AND LOOKING BACK AT WHAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS DONE, AND IT'S BEEN, IN FACT, THEY WERE QUITE SLOW IN THEIR INVESTIGATION OF TRUMP BECAUSE OF THE VERY CONCERN THAT EVERYTHING THEY WERE DOING WOULD BE PERCEIVED THROUGH A PARTISAN LENS.

SO THEY HAVE PROCEEDED, I BELIEVE, WITH GREAT CARE AND BEING VERY SOBER AND TRYING TO DO EVERYTHING BY THE BOOK.

SO, SUPPOSEDLY YES, THE COURT DATE SET FOR AUGUST WILL PROBABLY BE POSTPONED, BUT I JUST HATE THE IDEA OF ONE, I THINK THE UNITED STATES CREDIBILITY IS JUST TOTALLY AT STAKE HERE AS WELL.

AND AS WE MOVE CLOSER INTO CRAZY ELECTION YEAR, PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR FOR NEXT YEAR, WE JUST LOOK LIKE THE CIRCUS CAR.

>>LORENE: WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH VALERIE PLAME, FORMER CIA UNDERCOVER OFFICER.

ONE THING I WAS THINKING ABOUT JACK SMITH, BECAUSE HE CALLED THE DISCLOSURE OF THESE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS, A SEISMIC EVENT IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY.

HE SAID, THE WORLD IS WATCHING, WHAT ARE OUR ALLIES THINKING.

SOME OF THE DOCUMENTS WERE THESE FIVE EYES THAT OUR TOP FIVE ALLIES, ONLY THOSE PEOPLE, WELL THEY'RE WONDERING, THEY'RE PUTTING MY BUSINESS IN THE STREETS.

THESE ARE DOCUMENTS THAT WERE LYING ON THE FLOOR AND SO THE WORLD IS WATCHING AND NOW THEY DON'T FEEL SO SECURE WITH US, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE OUR BEST ALLIES.

>>VALERIE: NO, THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE THERE AS WELL.

OH, REALLY, THIS IS HOW YOU TREAT OUR TOP-SECRET DOCUMENTS.

AND I LOVE WHEN TRUMP'S OWN WORDS ARE USED AGAINST HIM, HIS BEATING HIS CHEST ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, ANYONE WHO DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO TREAT CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS SHOULD BE PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.

I JUST HAVE TO, I HAVE TO POINT OUT THAT IF A NORMAL PERSON WAS DOING THE SAME THINGS THAT HE HAD BEEN, THAT HE'S DONE, THAT PROVEN TO HAVE DONE, THERE'D BE NO MERCY.

THERE REALLY ARE TWO STANDARDS.

I'M PLEASED TO SEE THAT JACK SMITH IS MOVING WITH ALACRITY, BUT IT'S ALREADY, I THINK HE'S BEEN GIVEN MORE THAN THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT AND MORE PATIENCE THAN ANYONE ELSE WOULD'VE GOTTEN.

>>LORENE: AND WHEN HE WENT TO WENT TO COURT, THERE'S NO MUGSHOT, THEY DIDN'T TAKE HIS PASSPORT, YOU KNOW, A DOUBLE STANDARD DEFINITELY, DEFINITELY.

SO I JUST WANT TO LOOK AT YOUR BACKGROUND A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE AMONG OTHER THINGS BESIDES YOUR CAREER WITH THE CIA, YOU HAVE WRITTEN SOME BOOKS AND MY FAVORITE, THIS ONE FAIR GAME , WHICH WAS ALSO MADE INTO A MOVIE.

THIS TELLS WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU, IT'S A COMPELLING READ.

IT'S ALSO BEEN REDACTED BY THE FBI, TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT IT, BECAUSE I KNOW PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH WOULD LOVE TO READ IT.

>>VALERIE: IT WAS A MEMOIR, IT CAME OUT IN 2007.

ABOUT 10% IS REDACTED, AND IT WAS, I THINK OF IT FRANKLY, AS A TOTALLY SELFISH EXERCISE, A CATHARSIS IN A WAY TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE LEAK OF MY NAME BY SENIOR BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS IN 2003, AND THEN FOLLOWING THE NEXT COUPLE YEARS, WHICH WERE JUST CRAZY, I LIKEN IT TO FALLING DOWN ALICE'S RABBIT HOLE WHERE WHITE IS BLACK AND BLACK IS WHITE.

SO I WROTE THIS BOOK IN THE HOPES OF LIKE, OKAY, WHAT HAPPENED AGAIN AND THAT'S WHAT ALLOWED ME TO DO THE CIA, AS YOU DO, YOU HAVE TO RUN IT THROUGH THE CIA TO ENSURE THAT THERE ARE NO CLASSIFIED SECRETS IN IT, WHICH I COMPLETELY AGREE TO.

AND SO THEY DID REDACT ABOUT 10% OF IT.

I CAN ASSURE YOU NONE OF IT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH NATIONAL SECURITY AND THEY ALSO PUT FORWARD THEIR REGULATION THAT I AM NOT PERMITTED TO ACKNOWLEDGE ANY AGENCY EMPLOYMENT PRIOR TO 2002.

SO THERE'S THAT, BUT THEN I DID GO ON AND I WROTE AS YOU KNOW, TWO FICTION BOOKS WITH CO-AUTHOR.

>>LORENE: THIS IS ONE.

>>VALERIE: BLOW BACK AND BURNED WITH SARAH LOVETT.

AND THAT WAS FUN AND THEY DIDN'T REDACT VERY MUCH THERE BECAUSE IT WAS FICTION.

AND, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN TELL A LOT MORE IN FICTION MAYBE SO, BUT I FOUGHT FOR HAVING MY MEMOIR DONE AND ACTUALLY TO MY HORROR AND SURPRISE, I FILED A LAWSUIT AGAINST THE AGENCY WHEN THEY WERE JUST TRYING TO MAKE IT SO THAT I COULDN'T PUBLISH ANYTHING AND I DIDN'T THINK THAT WAS RIGHT.

>>LORENE: WELL, IT WAS ALSO MADE INTO A FILM FAIR GAME STARRING NAOMI WATTS AND SEAN PENN.

>>VALERIE: MY DAUGHTER, WHO'S 23, JUST WATCHED IT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MANY YEARS AS A YOUNG ADULT NOW.

SO SHE, YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF INTERESTING TO SEE HER REACTIONS, OH, WELL MAYBE MOM IS A LITTLE COOLER THAN I THOUGHT OR THAT EXPLAINS SOMETHING, YOU KNOW.

>>LORENE: SO IT'S BEEN 20, GO AHEAD.

I'M SORRY.

>>VALERIE: OH, ALL I WAS JUST SAYING, YOU KNOW, IT TAKES TIME, MATURITY TAKES TIME.

>>LORENE: IT'S BEEN 20 YEARS SINCE 2003 AND SO YOU MUST HAVE JUST, YOUR HEAD WAS SPINNING BECAUSE YOU WENT FROM ABSOLUTELY BEHIND THE SCENES, COVERT, UNDERCOVER, TO SUDDENLY BEING CATAPULTED ONTO THE WORLD STAGE.

>>VALERIE: IT WAS SO DISORIENTING AND IT HAPPENED NOT JUST TO ME, BUT ALSO TO MY SPOUSE, JOE WILSON SO WE WERE BOTH UNDER FIRE AND IT WAS SEVERELY, YOU KNOW, AN OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE AND ALL THE RED CARPET EXPERIENCES IN THE WORLD CAN'T GIVE YOU BACK YOUR CAREER, CAN'T GIVE YOU BACK PEACE OF MIND.

I LOST A LOT OF TIME WITH MY YOUNG CHILDREN, AND IT'S REALLY ONLY BEEN LIKE EVERYONE ELSE WITH COVID ENFORCED QUIETUDE AND JUST A TIME TO TAKE A BREATH.

IT'S AS I REALIZED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN ALMOST 20 YEARS, THAT I WAS ABLE TO REALLY UNPACK WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT IT MEANT FOR ME AND WHERE DO I WANT TO PUT MY ENERGY GOING FORWARD.

>>LORENE: AND WHERE DO YOU WANT TO PUT YOUR ENERGY GOING FORWARD, I HOPE WRITING IS GOING TO BE A SMALL ELEMENT.

>>VALERIE: WELL, I'M HAPPILY REMARRIED, I LIVE IN SILVER CITY AND THIS HAS BEEN REALLY, IT'S A WONDERFUL PLACE IN THE WORLD.

I'M HAPPY, I MISS SANTA FE, BUT I'M HAPPY TO BE HERE.

SO I'M WORKING ON A SPY CONFERENCE COMING UP, WHICH I'LL TELL YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT.

>>LORENE: OH, YES, YES.

>>VALERIE: I'M INCHING TOWARD CLEARING THE MENTAL SPACE AND TIME TO START WRITING AGAIN, I'D LIKE TO DO THAT.

>>LORENE: WELL, SO I WANT TO REALLY RECOMMEND THIS SPY CONFERENCE BECAUSE I WAS ABLE TO GO LAST YEAR.

IT'S IN NOVEMBER THIS YEAR AT THE LA FONDA HOTEL AND I LEARNED SO MUCH, I WAS ABSOLUTELY INTRIGUED.

SO TELL US A LITTLE MORE ABOUT IT, WHAT WILL PEOPLE LEARN IF THEY GO THERE.

>>VALERIE: THIS IS OUR THIRD RUNNING, WE STARTED IN SANTA FE, GOT DISRUPTED BY MY RUN FOR CONGRESS AND COVID, HAD IT LAST YEAR IN TUCSON AND WE'VE RETURNED TO SANTA FE AT LA FONDA, AS YOU MENTIONED, NOVEMBER 10, 11, 12.

I AM SO PROUD OF OUR SPEAKERS, THESE ARE LEGENDARY CIA OFFICERS, HIGHLY DECORATED, THE REAL DEAL.

AND I JUST, I WILL HAVE THIS YEAR, SOMEONE NAMED JACK BARSKY.

WHO'S JACK BARSKY.

HE IS A FORMER KGB ILLEGAL.

IF YOU'VE EVER SEEN THE SHOW, THE AMERICANS , HE'S LIKE THE REAL LIFE VERSION OF THAT, HE IS AN AMAZING STORY.

I HAVE MIKE MORELL, FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE CIA.

SO IT'LL BE, I HAVE JONNA MENDEZ, SHE WAS CHIEF OF DISGUISE FOR THE CIA, JIM LAWLER, WHO IS ONE OF THE BEST AGENCY RECRUITERS WE'VE EVER HAD, TALKS ABOUT THE METAPHYSICS OF RECRUITING A SPY.

I HAVE MARC POLYMEROPOULOS.

NOT ONLY IS HE AN ADVOCATE FOR HAVANA SYNDROME, BUT I THINK WHAT HE'S GOING TO SPEAK ABOUT IS LEADERSHIP LESSONS LEARNED FROM THE CIA.

HE LED OPERATIONS IN AFGHANISTAN AND INTO MOSCOW.

SO AGAIN, TOTALLY SELFISH, I DO THIS SIMPLY SO I CAN BRING MY CIA FRIENDS TO SANTA FE.

>>LORENE: CAN YOU GIVE US THE WEBSITE BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE WILL REALLY BE INTERESTED.

>>VALERIE: YES, MA'AM.

SPIESLIESNUKES.COM TELLS YOU ALL ABOUT THE CONFERENCE, YOU CAN BUY TICKETS, SPIESLIESNUKES.COM.

>>LORENE: WE ONLY HAVE A FEW MINUTES LEFT, BUT PEOPLE ALWAYS ASK ME, HOW DO YOU GET INTO THAT LINE OF WORK, HOW, WHAT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE, I KNOW YOUNG PEOPLE WHO WOULD LOVE TO GO, BUT THEY JUST DON'T KNOW HOW TO GO THROUGH THE POLICE TO BE A DETECTIVE TO THEN, YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND FOR SOMEONE WHO IS INTERESTED IN IT.

>>VALERIE: SURE, IT'S HELPFUL TO HAVE A LANGUAGE AND TO HAVE HAD SOME FOREIGN TRAVEL.

IT IS HELPFUL BUT NOT NECESSARY TO HAVE A MASTER'S DEGREE, I CERTAINLY DIDN'T HAVE ONE AT THE TIME I JOINED.

THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS, THERE'S NO TAP ON THE SHOULDER AS IN DAYS OLD.

YOU NEED TO ONLY APPLY, THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN APPLY IS THROUGH CIA.GOV ONLINE AND IT'S A LONG AND ARDUOUS PROCESS.

SO PERSEVERANCE IS A REALLY GOOD TRAIT AND IF YOU GET TURNED DOWN, LIKE YOU MIGHT MAKE IT SO FAR AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU GET GHOSTED, THEY DON'T CALL YOU BACK, YOU NEVER KNOW WHY.

BUT THAT'S SORT OF THE NATURE OF THE BUSINESS, ISN'T IT?

>>LORENE: YES.

>>VALERIE: I URGE PEOPLE THAT ARE INTERESTED TO CHECK OUT CIA.GOV, IT'S A GREAT WEBSITE ON ALL THE DIFFERENT CAREER OPPORTUNITIES THERE.

AND I'M A BIG ADVOCATE FOR YOUNG, SMART PEOPLE TO CONSIDER THAT, IT IS A FORM OF PUBLIC SERVICE, OF COURSE AND I LOVED MY CAREER, I WAS SO PROUD TO SERVE MY COUNTRY AND IT ENDED TOO SOON.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE ARE GRATEFUL TO YOU.

AND THERE'S ONE MORE FAVOR I'D LIKE TO ASK OF YOU IN THE TWO MINUTES WE HAVE LEFT.

HOW SHOULD PEOPLE HOLD THIS WHOLE THING ABOUT TRUMP AND THE BETRAYAL OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS.

EVERY DAY THERE'S A NEW EXCUSE, A NEW WRINKLE, BUT THE FACT IS THAT HE BROKE THE LAW AND WITH ALL THOSE INDICTMENTS, DO YOU THINK, WELL WHO KNOWS.

HE'S ESCAPED EVERY OTHER FORM OF ACCOUNTABILITY AT THIS POINT.

>>VALERIE: THAT WOULD JUST BE SPECULATION.

I WOULD SAY CAUSE IT'S SO EASY TO BE DISCOURAGED.

DON'T LOSE HOPE, DO NOT, DO NOT GIVE UP ON OUR DEMOCRACY, IT IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR.

THIS GRAND EXPERIMENT THAT WAS STARTED OVER 250 YEARS AGO, IT IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR AND THAT MEANS NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW, INTEGRITY, DEMAND INTEGRITY IN OUR POLITICIANS, BE AWARE OF WHAT YOU'RE READING, WHAT YOU'RE TAKING IN, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT AI OR DEEP FAKES OR ANY OF, YOU KNOW, FAKE NEWS OR ANY OF THAT OTHER STUFF.

BUT THAT'S A REALLY SERIOUS THREAT TO DEMOCRACY, BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TRUTH IS, HOW CAN YOU ACT APPROPRIATELY.

BUT THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER CONVERSATION, WE'LL HAVE ANOTHER TIME.

>>LORENE: YES, I REALLY WANT TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION BECAUSE DEEP FAKES, AI, MEDIA LITERACY, HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT'S TRUE OR NOT, WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION?

IT'S A JUNGLE OUT THERE.

>>VALERIE: IT'S CRAZY MAKING, IT REALLY IS AND MOVING SO QUICKLY.

>>LORENE: YES, BUT I WANT TO THANK YOU SO MUCH.

OUR GUEST TODAY HAS BEEN VALERIE PLAME.

AGAIN, FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KNOW YOUR BACKGROUND, THEY CAN READ FAIR GAME OR WATCH THE MOVIE, BUT I LOVE THE BOOK.

AND THE SPY NOVELS TOO, YOU CAN FIND OUT THE TRUTH SOMETIMES MORE IN FICTION THAN IN ACTUAL NONFICTION.

SO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, AND LET'S MAKE A DATE ON THE AI AND THE DEEP FAKE SHOW IN THE FUTURE.

>>VALERIE: I WOULD LOVE TO.

THANK YOU SO MUCH AS ALWAYS FOR HAVING ME ON LORENE.

IT'S SUCH AN HONOR.

>>LORENE: AS ALWAYS, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, VALERIE PLAME AND I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON A VERY SPECIAL EDITION OF REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

THANK YOU, BYE.

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

♪ MUSIC