REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO A VERY SPECIAL EDITION OF REPORT FROM SANTA FE BECAUSE OUR GUEST IS VALERIE PLAME, A FORMER CIA COVERT OFFICER, AUTHOR OF SOME AMAZING BOOKS, FAIR GAME, MY LIFE AS A SPY AND HOW I WAS OUTED BY THE WHITE HOUSE, AND NOVELS ABOUT SPYING.

FICTION ALLOWS YOU TO BE MORE HONEST THAN NONFICTION.

IF YOU WANT TO LEARN ABOUT SPYING READ THESE BOOKS, BURNED AND A BOOK CALLED, BLOWBACK .

BUT I HAVE ASKED YOU HERE BECAUSE THE CURRENT NEWS OF THE DAY IS ABOUT FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP AND HIS ABUSE OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS.

HE HAS MANHANDLED THEM, HE HAS RIFLED THROUGH THEM, HE HAS STOLEN THEM, HE HAS KEPT THEM, HE WON'T GIVE THEM BACK AND THEY ARE THE PROPERTY OF THE PEOPLE.

HE DOESN'T GET TO KEEP HIS LOVE LETTER FROM KIM JONG-UN.

SO, CAN YOU TELL US WHY IT IS SUCH A BIG DEAL AND THE KIND OF OATH THAT ANY NATIONAL, FEDERAL EMPLOYEE TAKES TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION BUT ESPECIALLY A FORMER PRESIDENT HAS CERTAIN RESPONSIBILITIES - TALK TO ME.

>>VALERIE: OF COURSE, FIRST OF ALL THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON, IT IS ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

YES, THIS MATTERS.

WHEN THIS NEWS FIRST BROKE, IT WAS ABSOLUTELY SHOCKING TO THOSE OF US WHO UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS MEANS.

EVERYONE IN THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IS REQUIRED TO SIGN A SECRECY OATH, WHICH I DID WHEN I FIRST STARTED AT THE CIA AND YOU AGREE NOT TO REVEAL CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, SOURCES AND METHODS, WHICH IS MOST CLOSELY HELD OF ALL SECRETS BECAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU COLLECT INTELLIGENCE, HOW YOU COLLECT THAT INFORMATION THAT IS THEN GIVEN TO OUR SENIOR US POLICYMAKERS.

SO WHEN THE NEWS CAME OUT THAT BOXES AND BOXES OF CLASSIFIED INFORMATION WERE FOUND AT MAR-A-LAGO, THIS IS CLEARLY NOT AN INNOCENT MISTAKE THAT, "WELL, YOU KNOW, IN MOVING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE WHEN WE PICKED UP THE EASY CHAIR, THE POTTED PLANTS, WE ACCIDENTLY PICKED UP SOME BOXES OF CLASSIFIED INFORMATION.

WE ARE SO SORRY, WE WILL GIVE THEM BACK."

IT WASN'T THAT AT ALL.

AS MORE AND MORE HAS COME OUT, WILLIAM ARKIN OF NEWSWEEK HAS DONE SOME AMAZING REPORTING ON THIS, I AM FOLLOWING HIM VERY CLOSELY.

HE IS THE ONE WHO BROKE THE STORY AND OTHERS ARE SORT OF FOLLOWING BEHIND HIM.

WHAT IS MOST TROUBLING IS THAT THIS INFORMATION IS IN THE RESTRICTED HANDLING, SOME OF THE MOST CLASSIFIED, MOST SECRETIVE, TOP-SECRET SORT OF INFORMATION, SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAMS, SAPS, THAT CONTAIN NUCLEAR INFORMATION AMONG OTHER THINGS.

>>LORENE: SO THERE WERE LIKE OVER 700 DOCUMENTS AND THIS IS NOT LIKE IT IS ONE PAGE, THESE ARE MULTI SHEETS OF TOP SECRET AND CLASSIFIED MATERIAL AND HE CAN'T SAY, "WELL, I TOOK IT HOME TO DO A LITTLE WORK AT HOME," BECAUSE HE IS NO LONGER THE PRESIDENT.

>>VALERIE: CORRECT.

>>LORENE: HE ACTUALLY HAD TO SOMEHOW STEAL THAT MATERIAL.

>>VALERIE: WELL I AM NOT A NATIONAL SECURITY DOCUMENT SPECIALIST, AND THOSE PEOPLE DO EXIST AND THEY ARE THE ONES WHO WILL BE ABLE TO SORT THROUGH WHETHER A PRESIDENT, SITTING OR OUT OF OFFICE, WHAT THEIR DECLASSIFICATION RULES ARE.

TRUMP KIND OF THINKS IN HIS HEAD THAT HE WAVES A MAGIC WAND AND BY HIM SAYING, "I DECLASSIFY YOU," IT HAPPENS.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE AT ALL.

I SPEAK AS AN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER AND MY QUESTION OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IS "WHY?"

WHY DOES HE HAVE THESE DOCUMENTS?

THIS ISN'T A QUESTION OF, I WANTED A SOUVENIR, YEAH THE LOVE LETTER FROM KIM JUNG-UN, THE LEADER OF NORTH KOREA, LIKE HE APPARENTLY HAS SHAQ O'NEAL'S SNEAKER SIZE, I MEAN THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

MAGGIE HABERMAN OF THE NEW YORK TIMES WHO HAS WRITTEN FOR YEARS ON TRUMP SINCE 2016, AND KNOWS HIS WORLD VERY WELL, WROTE A PIECE A FEW DAYS AGO.

HER HYPOTHESIS, HER SPECULATION, THAT THE REASON HE WAS TAKING ALL THESE WAS THAT HE KIND OF JUST KIND OF COLLECTS STUFF, HE IS A LITTLE BIT OF A HOARDER.

THAT'S NICE, MAYBE THAT IS TRUE, IT IS SPECULATION BUT AGAIN, MY MIND AS AN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER GOES, WHAT DO YOU WANT THOSE FOR, WHY ARE YOU KEEPING THOSE AND THERE IS NO GOOD ANSWER, NO GOOD ANSWER FOR THAT.

AND GIVEN THAT THERE HAS BEEN SPECULATION THAT IN SOME WAYS TRUMP WAS WHAT WE WOULD CALL, "AN UNWITTING ASSET OF PUTIN AND THE RUSSIA GOVERNMENT," YOU DO HAVE TO WONDER WHAT ROLE ALL THOSE DOCUMENTS AND HIS HOLDING ON TO THEM, EVEN TO THE POINT OF WHERE HE HAD HIS LAWYERS SAY, "WELL YEAH, WE'VE GIVEN YOU EVERYTHING," APPARENTLY BACK IN JUNE.

I MEAN THIS RAID, DESPITE WHAT THE RIGHT, HOW THEY MIGHT WANT TO PORTRAY IT, IT WAS A RAID UNANNOUNCED.

THIS HAS BEEN MONTHS AND MONTHS AND MONTHS IN THE MAKING AND THEY WERE WELL AWARE THAT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES WAS REQUESTING THE RETURN OF THESE HIGHLY CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS.

THIS WASN'T A BIG SURPRISE BUT THEY JUST STONEWALLED, SO THEY ULTIMATELY HAD NO CHOICE.

THE QUESTION I WANT TO KNOW IS WHY.

>>LORENE: WELL, WITH THIS FORMER PRESIDENT, THERE IS ALWAYS A MONETARY CONSIDERATION OR BROKERING INFORMATION FOR POWER, INFLUENCE, OR MONEY.

SO THAT IS A POSSIBILITY.

>>VALERIE: PERHAPS, YES.

>>LORENE: AND SO THEY WERE KEPT IN A STOREROOM OFF OF THE POOL AREA IN A VERY PUBLIC POOL IN MAR-A-LAGO WHERE PEOPLE WERE COMING AND GOING.

>>VALERIE: YES.

>>LORENE: IT WAS NOT AT ALL SECURE.

FIRST OF ALL WHY DID HE HAVE THEM AND THEN TO DISRESPECT THEM BY REALLY NOT CONTINUING TO KEEP THEM AS SECURE AS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

>>VALERIE: WELL THIS IS CERTAINLY IN KEEPING IN EVERYTHING TRUMP HAS DONE WITH THE PRESIDENCY.

HIS LACK OF CONCERN ABOUT WHAT THE NORMS ARE WHETHER THERE IS ACTUAL RULES OR REGULATIONS, GUIDELINES, THAT'S WHAT NORMS ARE.

THIS IS HOW WE TYPICALLY DO THINGS AND IN A DEMOCRACY A FUNCTIONING HEALTHY DEMOCRACY ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT RULES IS WHEN YOU LOSE, YOU MIGHT NOT LIKE IT, BUT YOU CONCEDE AND YOU GO AWAY, LICK YOUR WOUNDS, NO MATTER WHICH SIDE AND THEN COME BACK ANOTHER DAY.

BUT, OF COURSE, TRUMP AND HIS SUPPORTERS HAVE CONTINUALLY DENIED THAT BIDEN WON THE 2020 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN THE FACE OF ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER.

EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY HAVE TRIED AND THEY HAVE COME UP WITH ZERO.

BUT THIS REALLY IS A WHOLE, I AM GETTING TIRED OF USING THE WORLD "UNPRECEDENTED" WHEN IT COMES TO TRUMP BECAUSE I USE IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN BUT WHERE WE ARE NOW THAT THERE HAS BEEN AN FBI RAID, CLEARLY THERE WAS REAL CONCERN ABOUT WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO WITH THESE DOCUMENTS.

SAY WHAT YOU WILL ABOUT ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND OR THE HEAD OF THE FBI, APPOINTED BY TRUMP BY THE WAY, CHRISTOPHER WRAY, THESE ARE MEN WHO ARE BY THE BOOK.

THEY ARE PRUDENT, THEY MOVE VERY SLOWLY, MORE SLOWLY THAN SOME WOULD LIKE, BUT THESE ARE NOT COWBOYS THAT ARE DISREGARDING THE LAW, NOT AT ALL.

AND HOW THIS PLAYS OUT I THINK GOES RIGHT TO THE HEART OF WHAT JOHN ADAMS ASKED ABOUT WHICH IS "ARE WE A NATION OF MEN OR ARE WE A NATION OF LAWS, WHO IS ABOVE THE LAW?"

>>LORENE: AND MERRICK GARLAND WAS VERY CAREFUL TO SAY AS THIS ISSUE CAME UP, "NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW," THEN HE WOULD REPEAT IT, LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR, "NO ONE IN THIS COUNTRY IS ABOVE THE LAW."

>>VALERIE: I AM SURE THAT HE WAKES UP EVERY DAY AND FEELS THE FULL WEIGHT OF WHAT HIS DECISIONS GOING TO THIS POINT AND GOING FORWARD, HOW THAT WILL MARK HIM FOR HISTORY, BUT ALSO OUR COUNTRY AND OUR DEMOCRACY.

AND I WOULD SIMPLY ASK THAT AS THIS IS CARRIED OUT IT IS CARRIED TO THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF LEGAL, LEGAL CARE AND BECAUSE SO MUCH IS AT STAKE.

>>LORENE: SO ARE THERE OTHER EXAMPLES THAT YOU KNOW OF IN YOUR EXPERIENCE WHERE... ONE THING THAT I WOULD LIKE YOU TO DO IS TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW THEY CLASSIFY DOCUMENTS BECAUSE I DON'T THINK PEOPLE KNOW THE SKILL, BUT IF YOU KNOW OF ANY OTHER CASES WHERE THERE IS THIS ABUSE OF HOW THE DOCUMENTS WERE HANDLED AND WHAT WERE THE CONSEQUENCES, HAS THERE BEEN PUNISHMENT THEN AND WILL THERE BE PUNISHMENT NOW?

>>VALERIE: AH, A GREAT QUESTION.

SO VERY BRIEFLY, WITHOUT GOING INTO TOO MUCH DETAIL THERE ARE CERTAIN DIFFERENT DESIGNATIONS, THE LOWEST CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, TOP-SECRET, AND THEN WHEN YOU GO ABOVE THAT, YOU GET INTO WHAT I MENTIONED SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAMS, SAPS.

FOR INSTANCE WHEN I WAS WORKING FOR THE CIA, YOU GET READ INTO A PROGRAM, YOU READ THE FILE, YOU SIGN A NOTE SAYING, "YES, I HAVE READ THIS," AND THEN WHEN YOU ARE NO LONGER ASSOCIATED WITH THAT OPERATION, THAT PROGRAM, YOU ARE READ OUT AND YOU SIGN AGAIN.

AND IT IS A VERY BUREAUCRATIC YET VERY MEANINGFUL AND IMPORTANT SYSTEM.

I MEAN TO PROTECT THIS NATION'S MOST IMPORTANT SECRETS.

THAT SAID, WE HAVE GOTTEN OVER ZEALOUS OVER THE YEARS RIGHT, IT IS SO MUCH EASIER TO CLASSIFY SOMETHING AND PUT IT IN THAT BIN THAN ACTUALLY TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT AND DETERMINE WILL THAT IS NOT REALLY... AND IN FACT WILLIAM ARKIN, WHO I MENTIONED NOW WORKING FOR NEWSWEEK, HE AND DANA PRIEST OF THE WASHINGTON POST WROTE A GREAT BOOK THAT GOT NO TRACTION WHATSOEVER, BUT I FOUND IT FASCINATING IN 2010 CALLED TOP SECRET AMERICA AND IT WAS ABOUT HOW THE WHOLE INTELLIGENCE APPARATUS HAS COMPLETELY BALLOONED IN THE YEARS FOLLOWING 9/11.

I BELIEVE WE ARE NOW OVER, MAYBE I AM NOT MISTAKEN, I HOPE NOT, OVER A MILLION PEOPLE HAVE A SECRET CLEARANCE, A TOP-SECRET CLEARANCE, AND SO WHEN YOU HAVE THAT MANY PEOPLE WITH THAT CLEARANCE, IT IS REALLY HARD TO KEEP SECRETS, WHICH SPEAKS TO YOUR SECOND QUESTION OF GEE, HAS THIS EVER HAPPENED BEFORE?

YES, IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME ACTUALLY, JUST NOT A PRESIDENT.

I MEAN YOU SEE WHISTLEBLOWERS ALL THE TIME THAT HAVE.

FOR INSTANCE CHELSEA MANNING, I'M NOT TAKING A STANCE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER ON WHETHER SHE SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT HERE, THE FACT WAS SHE WAS A VERY, VERY JUNIOR OFFICER THAT REALLY HAD NO REASON TO BE READ INTO, NEED TO KNOW, WITH ALL THE CLASSIFIED INFORMATION SHE SAW AND TOOK OUT OF THE SYSTEM AND THEN PASSED ALONG TO WIKILEAKS AND MANY OTHERS.

SIMPLY TOO MANY PEOPLE WITH TOP-SECRET CLEARANCES AND TOO MANY PLACES WHERE THAT COULD GO WRONG.

BUT TRUMP IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT CATEGORY.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>VALERIE: SUPPOSEDLY, THE FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, JOHN BOLTON, NOT A FAVORITE OF MINE.

BUT HE REALLY DISLIKES TRUMP.

HE WAS QUOTED AS SAYING THAT IN HIS TIME IN WORKING WITH TRUMP, HE SAW MANY, MANY TIMES BRIEFERS WOULD COME IN, TRUMP WOULD ASK FOR THEM TO LEAVE THE PAPERS BEHIND, AND THEY WOULD SAY, "WELL, MR. PRESIDENT, WE PREFER NOT TO," BUT SOMETIMES THEY FORGOT.

>>LORENE: WELL WE KNOW HE DIDN'T LIKE TO READ A LOT.

>>VALERIE: NO.

>>LORENE: BUT I JUST WANT TO REMIND OUR AUDIENCE WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH VALERIE PLAME ABOUT TOP-SECRET ISSUES AND WHAT GOES ON.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WAS ASTONISHED IN THE RECITATION OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT WERE ABUSED, WAS THAT SOME OF THEM HAD TO BE IN A SPECIAL SAFE SCIF, I THINK YOU CALL IT?

>>VALERIE: YES, SCIF.

>>LORENE: OR YOU CAN'T BRING IN YOUR PHONE, NOBODY ELSE CAN BE IN THERE, IT IS SHIELDED.

>>VALERIE: THE REASON, THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.

THAT SOME DOCUMENTS ARE SO SENSITIVE THAT THEY COULD ONLY BE SEEN IN A VERY CLEAN AND SECURE ENVIRONMENT AND THE FACT THAT THEY WERE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, SHOVED IN A BIG BOX, APPARENTLY THE NEWS HAS SINCE COME OUT THAT THERE WERE DOCUMENTS IN THERE THAT WEREN'T, IT IS NOT LIKE IT WAS ONLY INTELLIGENCE DOCUMENTS, FOR ALL WE KNOW WE HAD YOU KNOW, MR.

POTATO HEAD IN THERE AND WHO, HOW?

>>LORENE: I HAD HEARD, LAST FALL HE WENT THROUGH AND CHERRY PICKED.

>>VALERIE: YEAH.

>>LORENE: THE DOCUMENTS.

I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT WHEN I HEARD THIS, WHEN I FIRST HEARD THIS NEWS THAT HE HAD BEEN RIFLING THROUGH THESE DOCUMENTS, I WAS SICK TO MY STOMACH BECAUSE THAT IS OUR NATIONAL SECURITY, THOSE ARE OUR TOP SECRETS.

WHO IS DOING AN ASSESSMENT OF HOW MUCH DAMAGE WAS DONE, IS THERE A NATIONAL SECURITY COMMISSION THAT IS GOING TO TRY TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED.

>>VALERIE: WELL, PRESUMABLY THAT IS WHAT THE FBI IS DOING RIGHT NOW.

I GOT TO BELIEVE THERE IS A VERY SECURE ROOM WITH WHITEBOARDS EVERYWHERE AND A BIG CONFERENCE TABLE WITH ALL THOSE DOCUMENTS LAID OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT.

>>LORENE: THEY WERE GOING TO CHECK THE FINGERPRINTS ON A LOT OF THOSE DOCUMENTS.

>>VALERIE: I GUESS THEY COULD, IT DEPENDS, YES IF THEY WANT TO DO FORENSIC ANALYSIS ON IT, OKAY.

BUT FIRST YOU HAVE TO STOP THE BLEEDING AND THEY HAD TO RETRIEVE THOSE DOCUMENTS AND NOW GO THROUGH THEM AND SEE WHAT THEY HAVE.

I COULDN'T FOLLOW AND APPARENTLY NO ONE ELSE COULD, TRUMP'S LAWYERS THIS WEEK FILED SOME SORT OF MOTION.

>>LORENE: OH, SPECIAL MASTER.

>>VALERIE: A SPECIAL MASTER.

>>LORENE: TWO WEEKS AFTER.

>>VALERIE: YEAH AND PEOPLE WHO ARE A LOT SMARTER THAN I AM IN LEGAL AFFAIRS BASICALLY SAID... >>LORENE: ACTUALLY PEOPLE, LAWYERS WERE LAUGHING.

>>VALERIE: YEAH.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE IT HAD THE THUMB PRINT OF THE MIND OF DONALD TRUMP ON HERE, NOT THE LEGAL MIND.

>>VALERIE: YEAH, APPARENTLY, HE IS HAVING TROUBLE HIRING GOOD LAWYERS.

>>LORENE: YES.

SO THEN YOU START LOOKING AROUND FOR ANY INDICATIONS OF A QUID PRO QUO AND THERE HAVE BEEN SOME MYSTERIOUS DEVELOPMENTS FOR SOME REASON WE DON'T KNOW, THE SAUDIS GAVE JARED KUSHNER, WAS IT TWO BILLION DOLLARS?

>>VALERIE: I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THAT, BUT MAYBE WE CAN READ ABOUT IT IN JARED'S BOOK, WHICH JUST CAME OUT.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOD, HAVE YOU READ THE REVIEWS?

OH MY GOD.

>>VALERIE: IT IS WORTH READING JUST FOR THE REVIEWS.

>>LORENE: THE REVIEWS ARE, I HAVE NEVER HEARD... >>VALERIE: YEAH, HE IS A STAR OF HIS OWN SHOW.

HE CLEARLY USED THAT PERCH TO ADVANCE HIS OWN FINANCIAL, HE AND HIS FAMILY AND HIS COMPANY'S OWN FINANCIAL INTEREST.

I CAN'T SPEAK TO THE TWO BILLION DOLLARS, I HAVE NO IDEA.

>>LORENE: THERE WERE ALSO TWO LIVS, SAUDI GOLF TOURNAMENTS AT BEDMINSTER AND OTHER TRUMP PROPERTIES THAT THEY RECEIVED $110 MILLION FOR EACH ONE, SO.

>>VALERIE: IT IS A GREAT COURSE LORENE.

>>LORENE: YES, OF COURSE.

AND SO WE JUST HAVE TO WAIT AS THIS UNFOLDS, BUT IT MADE ME SO UNCOMFORTABLE AND THE THOUGHT THAT THE OATH THAT HE TOOK TO PROTECT OUR SECRETS AND TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY AND IT MEANT NOTHING TO HIM.

>>VALERIE: I THINK TRUMP'S PRIMARY, IF NOT EXCLUSIVE, CONCERN IS HIMSELF.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>VALERIE: HE DOESN'T AND THIS IS WHAT HAS BEEN SUCH A HEAD SCRATCHER FOR ME IN TERMS OF POLITICS, IS THAT HE IS NOT A TRUE CONSERVATIVE, HE IS NOT A REPUBLICAN, HE HAS NO IDEOLOGY AND YET HE HAS CAPTURED THE VERY SOUL, PARASITICALLY, OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND FOR REASONS I DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND, THEY ARE SCARED TO DEATH OF HIM.

>>LORENE: YES, IT IS THE CULT.

>>VALERIE: HE IS RUNNING, YES IT IS A CULT OF PERSONALITY WHICH I DIDN'T THINK REPUBLICANS REALLY, THEY DON'T HAVE A HISTORY OF THAT BUT HERE WE ARE.

>>LORENE: AH YES.

SO, YOUR EXPERIENCE OF BEING OUTED NOW ALMOST 20 YEARS.

>>VALERIE: YES.

>>LORENE: YOU HANDLED IT WITH GREAT GRACE, BUT HOW ARE YOU LOOKING AT THAT NOW, GIVE PEOPLE JUST A COUPLE OF SENTENCES OF WHAT HAPPENED, THEY SHOULD READ THE BOOK, FAIR GAME.

>>VALERIE: WELL, TO REFRESH YOUR VIEWER'S MEMORY IN 2003, MY THEN HUSBAND, AMBASSADOR WILSON, WROTE AN OP-ED PIECE FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES "WHAT I DID NOT FIND IN AFRICA," AND HE WENT AFTER THE CENTRAL PREMISE THAT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION GAVE TO GO TO WAR IN IRAQ WHICH WAS AN IMMINENT NUCLEAR THREAT.

AND THE BUSH WHITE HOUSE WAS VERY UNHAPPY, THAT OP-ED HAPPENED TO LAND AT JUST A MOMENT WHEN I SUPPOSE THEY WERE FEELING SOMEWHAT VULNERABLE.

THEY WENT TO WAR, THEY SAID THERE WAS WMDS, THERE WAS NO WMDS.

SO A WEEK AFTER THAT OP-ED APPEARED, MY NAME WAS LEAKED TO A CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST AND MY TRUE CIA IDENTITY, WAS BETRAYED AND IT STARTED A YEAR'S LONG CRAZY, DOWN ALICE'S RABBIT HOLE THING.

HIGHLY PARTISAN IN NATURE, BUT THANK GOODNESS IT WAS REALLY BEFORE SOCIAL MEDIA GOT GOING BECAUSE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN... >>LORENE: DANGEROUS.

>>VALERIE: AS DIFFICULT AS IT WAS IT WOULD BE WORSE NOW, I CAN ONLY IMAGINE.

>>LORENE: AND THEY FIGURED YOU WERE "FAIR GAME" BECAUSE YOU WERE MARRIED TO HIM.

>>VALERIE: EXACTLY, THAT SOMEHOW WE HAD CONCOCTED THIS, I MEAN THE NOTION THAT WE COULD READ THE FUTURE AND THAT WHEN JOE WILSON WENT TO NIGER TO INVESTIGATE A CIA CLAIM ABOUT YELLOW CAKE URANIUM FROM NIGER TO IRAQ, THAT WAS BACK IN 2002, THEN IN 2003, HE'D WRITE THIS OP-ED AND THAT SOMEHOW I HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT, WHICH I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

THEY WERE MAKING IT UP OUT OF WHOLE CLOTH, BUT BECAUSE THEY WERE FEELING SO EMBATTLED IT JUST KIND OF STUCK.

IT WAS THE FIRST TIME, IN THAT TIME PERIOD, THAT SOMEONE IN THE ESTABLISHMENT, JOE WILSON, REALLY PUSHED BACK AGAINST THE BUSH WHITE HOUSE AND THAT'S WHY, AND THE WAR AND I THINK THAT IS WHY IT HAD SUCH IMPACT.

>>LORENE: SO THE FBI, WAS IT, REDACTED YOUR BOOK?

>>VALERIE: NO, THE CIA.

>>LORENE: CIA, I'M SORRY.

>>VALERIE: THE PUBLICATION REVIEW BOARD, BECAUSE I HAD SIGNED A SECRECY AGREEMENT, SAID OF COURSE I WILL NEVER REVEAL SOURCES OR METHODS, BUT THERE IS STILL A GREAT DEAL OF POLITICAL RETRIBUTION INVOLVED, SO YEAH, REDACTED.

>>LORENE: YEAH, SO THERE WAS A LOT OF BLACK IN THAT BOOK.

THEY DIDN'T REDACT YOUR FICTION BOOKS, THOUGH.

>>VALERIE: NO.

SO YOU CAN WRITE A LOT MORE FREELY AND I THINK THEY MADE ONE TINY LITTLE REDACTION AND I WAS HAPPY TO DO THAT.

BUT WHEN I WAS WRITING FAIR GAME , THE AGENCY SAID, WELL WHY DON'T YOU, INSTEAD OF WRITING A MEMOIR, WHY DON'T YOU WRITE A BOOK OF FICTION?

I SAID BECAUSE THAT IS NOT A MEMOIR.

>>LORENE: YEAH EXACTLY.

>>VALERIE: I CAN LAUGH ABOUT IT NOW, BUT IT IS A BITTER LAUGH, IT WAS A VERY PAINFUL, STRESSFUL, CRAZY PERIOD TO GO THROUGH THAT.

FIRST, DEALING WITH THE RIGHT WHO CALLED MY HUSBAND AND I TRAITORS AND THEN GETTING THE BOOK PUBLISHED AND THEN A COUPLE OF YEARS LATER, I WROTE THE SPY THRILLERS AND THAT WAS AN EASIER PROCESS.

THEY WERE DONE WITH ME BUT IT WAS STILL A VERY DIFFICULT TIME.

>>LORENE: HEMINGWAY SAID THAT "COURAGE IS GRACE UNDER PRESSURE" AND YOU HAVE COME OUT YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE CHAMPIONED YOUR OWN CAUSE SO BEAUTIFULLY AND I AM REALLY PROUD OF YOU.

>>VALERIE: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: SO, I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SPYING IN GENERAL.

>>VALERIE: YUP.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE YOU HAD SAID THAT A FEMALE SPY'S GREATEST ASSET IS?

>>VALERIE: CURIOSITY?

>>LORENE: THEIR BRAIN.

>>VALERIE: OF COURSE, YES, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY, POPULAR CULTURE ALWAYS DEPICTS, GENERALLY DEPICTS, FEMALE SPYING AS ACQUIRING INTELLIGENCE HORIZONTALLY.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

>>VALERIE: YOU'RE SLEEPING YOUR WAY OR WITH GUNS AND NEITHER ONE IS TRUE NOR ACCURATE.

THE BEST WAY IS WOMEN MAKE REALLY GOOD CIA SPIES BECAUSE, ONE, IN MOST PARTS OF THE WORLD WOMEN ARE NOT GIVEN MUCH ATTENTION, HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY BE UP TO NO GOOD, SO TO SPEAK AND WOMEN BY AND LARGE, THIS IS A GENERAL STATEMENT, BUT THEY ARE MORE EMPATHETIC.

YOU TEND TO HAVE PEOPLE THAT IN MANY CASES YOU ARE THEIR PSYCHOLOGIST, THEY ARE CRYING ON YOUR SHOULDER AND WOMEN HAVE BETTER ABILITY TO, FRANKLY, MANIPULATE THAT AND TO BE A GOOD LISTENER.

ACTUALLY, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOUR GENDER IS, BEING A GOOD LISTENER AND YOUR CURIOSITY IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL TO RECRUITING AND VETTING GOOD AGENTS IN SAFE OPERATIONS.

>>LORENE: ONE OTHER THING YOU MENTION, IT IS A VERY GLAMOROUS THING, EVERYONE THINKS BEING A SPY IS SO GLAMOROUS.

BUT YOU POINT OUT THAT THERE IS A LOT OF DOWN TIME, A LOT OF LONG, BORING STRETCHES AND A LOT OF DANGER TOO.

>>VALERIE: YEAH.

THAT IS JUST WHAT THE JOB IS.

THERE IS A LOT OF WAITING AROUND BECAUSE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE AT A CERTAIN PLACE AT A CERTAIN TIME AND YOU HAVE A WINDOW OF ABOUT 30 SECONDS.

SO YOU HAVE ALL THOSE WHAT WE CALL SURVEILLANCE DETECTION ROUTES SDRS TO MAKE SURE WHEN YOU ARE ON YOUR WAY TO MEETING AN ASSET THAT YOU ARE NOT BEING FOLLOWED, THAT CAN TAKE HOURS TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE CLEAN.

SO THAT WHEN YOU DO YOUR OPERATIONAL ACT WHETHER IT IS A BUS PASS OR JUST A QUICK MEETING, THAT YOU ARE CLEAN, RIGHT, THAT YOU DON'T HAVE THE HOST INTELLIGENCE SERVICE GOING TO WRAP YOU UP OR WORSE YOUR AGENT.

BUT I LOVED MY JOB, I LOVED THAT I GOT TO FOCUS ON NUCLEAR ISSUES, NUCLEAR CONCERNS AND I WISH I WAS STILL DOING IT.

>>LORENE: I WISH YOU WERE TOO, BECAUSE YOU SAID, "IF WE GET THE NUKES WRONG, LOOSE NUKES, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS."

>>VALERIE: NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.

>>LORENE: WOMEN'S RIGHTS, RIGHT TO VOTE.

>>VALERIE: FORGET, FORGET ABOUT IT.

>>LORENE: RADIOACTIVE.

>>VALERIE: I AM PLEASED TO REPORT THAT THEY SEEM TO BE MAKING PROGRESS AND GOING BACK TO THE SO-CALLED IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL, JPCOA, I GOT THOSE ACRONYMS SLIGHTLY WRONG, WHICH TRUMP TOOK US OUT UNILATERALLY AND I WAS VERY VOCAL.

I THINK THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY THE WRONG THING TO DO AND I HAVE IN FACT BEEN PROVEN CORRECT BECAUSE NOW THE IRANIANS ARE CLOSER THAN EVER TO HAVING A NUCLEAR WEAPON - SURPRISE!

IN THAT DEAL, THE CRITICS OF THE DEAL BELIEVED BECAUSE WE DIDN'T GET ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING THAT WE WANTED AND IRAN IS STILL IN CERTAIN WAYS A TERRIBLE MEMBER OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY THAT WE SHOULD JUST WALK AWAY.

I DON'T LOOK AT IT THAT WAY, I AM LIKE YES AND LET'S STOP THEM FROM GETTING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

SO WE ARE CLOSER TO THAT, THEY ARE MEETING IN VIENNA AND AS IN ANY NEGOTIATION EACH SIDE GIVES UP SOMETHING THAT THEY KIND OF WANT.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>VALERIE: BUT FOR A GREATER DEAL.

>>LORENE: SO FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KNOW MORE, YOU HAVE PUT ON THESE CONFERENCES THAT I LOVE, "LIES, SPIES AND NUKES, INSIDE INTERNATIONAL ESPIONAGE."

IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE, YOU HAD SOME IN SANTA FE.

>>VALERIE: I JUST HAD ONE IN TUCSON IN MAY.

TERRIFIC SUCCESS, I WAS REALLY EXCITED.

>>LORENE: THE CALIBER OF PEOPLE YOU BRING, IT IS ABSOLUTELY, I WOULD TRAVEL TO GO TO ONE.

>>VALERIE: OH, THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AND ALSO READING YOUR BOOKS IS A WAY FOR PEOPLE TO SLAKE THEIR FASCINATION.

>>VALERIE: THANK YOU, MY HUSBAND'S ON ME TO WRITE THE THIRD IN THAT TRILOGY.

>>LORENE: PLEASE DO.

>>VALERIE: SO I AM KIND OF LIKE WORKING MY WAY TOWARD IT.

>>LORENE: WELL YOU WILL COME BACK HERE WHEN IT'S DONE, I HOPE, I HOPE.

>>VALERIE: I WOULD LOVE TO.

>>LORENE: WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TIME, I COULD TALK TO YOU FOR HOURS.

>>VALERIE: I ALWAYS ENJOY SPEAKING WITH YOU LORENE.

>>LORENE: SO THANK YOU FOR COMING.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS VALERIE PLAME, I WANT TO POINT OUT THIS BOOK, FAIR GAME , AND IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE INS AND OUTS OF SPYING, BLOW BACK AND BURNED SO.

>>VALERIE: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: THE THIRD ONE IS COMING UP, WE WILL SEE YOU THEN.

>>VALERIE: SEE YOU THEN.

>>LORENE: THANK YOU VALERIE AND I AM LORENE MILLS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM