>> CATHY: THE ISSUE OF GUN VIOLENCE AND MASS SHOOTINGS IS NOT NEW TO THIS STATE OR THIS COUNTRY.

WE'RE GOING TO SPEND SOME TIME NOW TALKING WITH THE CO-FOUNDER OF THE VIOLENCE PREVENTION PROJECT.

A NONPROFIT RESEARCH CENTER BASED AT HAMLINE UNIVERSITY THAT COMPILES AND STUDIES DECADES OF DATA ON MASS SHOOTINGS.

JAMES DENSLEY IS A PROFESSOR AND HEAD OF THE CRIMINOLOGY AND JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AT METRO STATE.

I WISH IT WAS UNDER BETTER CIRCUMSTANCES THAT YOU'RE HERE.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> YES, THANK YOU.

IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE BUT I WISH WE DIDN'T HAVE TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

>> Cathy: YOU HAVE THIS EXTENSIVE DATABASE, AND FROM WHAT WE UNDERSTAND OF THE SHOOTER, APPARENTLY THAT PERSON FITS THE PROFILE PRETTY WELL?

>> YES.

SADLY, THIS IS SOMETHING WE SEE TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

AND ONE OF THE KEY FACTORS IS THIS STUDYING OF THE PAST MASS SHOOTERS.

THIS PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL SEEMED TO BE OBSESSED WITH THE HISTORIES OF THOSE WHO PERPETRATED CRIMES SIMILAR TO THIS.

AND IT'S THE SENSE OF TRYING TO FIND THEMSELVES IN THEIR OWN STORIES AND THEN FOLLOWING IN THEIR FOOTSTEPS.

THERE'S A KIND OF COPYCAT PHENOMONA HERE, THAT'S BOTH CHILLING BUT ALSO SOMETHING THAT WE UST SEE ROUTINE TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

AND I THINK WHEN IT COMES OWN -, WHEN SOMEBODY IS STRUGGLING IN LIFE, THEY'RE SEARCHING FOR ANSWERS OF WHY THEY FEEL THE WAY THEY FEEL, AND THEY'RE SEARCHING FOR SOMETHING TO RELATE TO AND CONNECT TO.

UNFORTUNATELY, THEY'RE FINDING THOSE ANSWERS ON THE DARKEST CORNERS OF THE INTERNET, AND THAT'S WHERE THEY BECOME SORT OF RADICALIZED TO THE VIOLENCE.

>> ONE OF YOUR EXPERTISE IS THE INTERNET AND THE SHOOTINGS.

AND I WAS INTERESTED TO TALK TO YOU BECAUSE THERE WAS LIKE A 20-MINUTE VIDEO THAT THE SHOOTER LAUNCHED ON YouTube BEFORE THE SHOOTING.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Eric: AND, AGAIN, THAT FITS A PATTERN.

>> IT DOES.

AND IT SPEAKS A LITTLE BIT TO LEAVING BEHIND A LEGACY THAT OTHERS THEMSELVES MAY SEEK TO FOLLOW.

AND IT, AGAIN, FEEDS INTO THIS NARRATIVE THAT THIS KEEPS HAPPENING.

IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, THE POSTING OF THIS SPEAKS A LITTLE BIT TO THE SEARCH FOR NOTORIETY AND FAME, WHICH ALSO SEEMS TO BE A DRIVING FACTOR BEHIND SOME OF THESE MASS SHOOTERS.

THEY ARE SEEKING THIS TO E A FINAL ACT.

IT'S WHY SO MANY OF THEM IE ON THE SCENE.

AND, AGAIN, THIS HAPPENED THIS WEEK.

THIS FINAL ACT IS ITSELF A PERFORMANCE.

IT'S ABOUT GETTING YOUR GRIEVANCE OUT THERE TO THE WORLD.

AND PART OF THAT IS LEAVING BEHIND THAT LEGACY SUCH AS POSTING A VIDEO ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

>> Cathy: IS THAT WHY POLICE CHIEF BRIAN O'HARA REFUSES TO SAY THIS PERSON'S NAME?

>> IT IS.

THERE'S SOMETHING WE OFTEN CALL THE NO NOTORIETY PROTOCOL, AS MUCH AS WE CAN, TO TRY AND AVOID PROVIDING THE INFAMY AND FAME THAT THAT PERSON WAS SEEKING.

SO TO THAT EXTENT, IT'S ALSO WHY I'M NOT SAYING THEIR NAME NOW EITHER.

I WANT TO FOCUS MUCH MORE ON THE HEROISM AT THE TIME FROM THE FIRST RESPONDERS, THE SURVIVORS, AND, OF COURSE, THE VICTIMS WHO HAVE LOST, YOU KNOW, THEIR LOVED ONES AND SO ON.

SO THAT'S A BIG PIECE OF THIS, IS NOT GIVING THEM WHAT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR.

>> Eric: YOU TALK ABOUT SHOOTER DRILLS, BEEFED-UP SECURITY, POLICE IN THE SCHOOLS, ARMING TEACHERS.

YOU SAY NONE OF THAT IS EFFECTIVE.

>> THIS IS THE SAD THING ABOUT THIS.

NINE TIMES OUT OF TEN THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS, PARTICULARLY IN SCHOOL AND CHURCH SETTINGS, THAT HAVE A PRIOR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TARGETS.

SO THEY'RE EITHER A CURRENT OR FORMER STUDENT OR A MEMBER OF THAT CONGREGATION, FOR INSTANCE.

THEY'RE VERY SAW -- THEY'RE VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE SECURITY PROTOCOLS, THEY WALK IN AND OUT OF THEM ON A DAILY BASIS.

SO IF WE'RE ONLY RELYING ON THOSE THINGS, THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

WE HAVE TO GET MUCH MORE UPSTREAM OF THE PROBLEM SO THAT WHEN SOMEBODY'S ON THAT PATHWAY TO VIOLENCE, WE'RE INTERVENING BEFORE THEY GET TO THE UILDING, BEFORE THIS HAPPENS.

THE OTHER THING ABOUT THE ACTIVE SHOOTER DRILLS, IF DONE CORRECTLY, AND IN MINNESOTA THEY'VE ACTUALLY PASSED LEGISLATION AROUND THIS, TO BE MORE TRAUMA-INFORMED, THEN I THINK THEY CAN BE BENEFICIAL.

BUT WE ALSO NEED TO REMEMBER THAT BECAUSE IT'S THE INSIDER WHO'S PERPETRATING THIS, THEY ARE BEING RUN THROUGH THOSE SAME DRILLS AS WELL.

AND I WORRY ABOUT NORMALIZING THIS FOR OUR YOUNG PEOPLE.

WE'RE PUTTING A LOT ON THE BACKS OF YOUNG PEOPLE.

IT'S THE FAILURE OF THE ADULTS THAT'S THE PROBLEM HERE.

IT BREAKS MY HEART THAT THEY'RE HAVING TO DEAL WITH THIS ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS WHEN THEY SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON EVERYDAY LIFE IN SCHOOL.

>> Cathy: HOW IN THE ORLD THEN DO YOU MOVE UPSTREAM TO TRY TO OCUS ON SOMEONE WHO MIGHT BE HEADING IN THIS DIRECTION?

I SAY THIS BECAUSE ONE OF HIS -- ONE OF THE SHOOTER'S FORMER TEACHERS WAS ONLINE TALKING ABOUT HOW THIS PERSON WAS CLEARLY VERY DISTURBED AT A VERY YOUNG AGE.

AND MAYBE DIDN'T GET THE HELP.

I MEAN, WHERE ARE THE POINTS IN SOMEONE'S LIFE WHERE INTERVENTION SHOULD BE?

>> I THINK, ACTUALLY, THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PIECE, IS AFTER THESE TERRIBLE TRAGEDIES, IT CAN OFTEN FEEL VERY HOPELESS AND WE CAN FEEL VERY HELPLESS IN THIS, BUT MY MESSAGE FOR EVERYONE IS REALLY, WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, AND IT REALLY RELIES ON US TO LOOK OUT FOR ONE ANOTHER, TO BE TAKING CARE OF EACH OTHER.

IF YOU'VE GOT SOMEBODY IN YOUR LIFE, A LOVED ONE, THAT YOU'RE A LITTLE BIT CONCERNED ABOUT, KNOWING HOW TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT THAT, NOT IN A PUNITIVE WAY, WE'RE NOT TRYING TO PUNISH PEOPLE, WE'RE TRYING TO GET THEM CONNECTED TO THE HELP AND SUPPORT THAT THEY NEED.

>> Eric: RED FLAG LAWS?

>> THAT'S A GREAT EXAMPLE.

SO MINNESOTA PASSED LEGISLATION AROUND RED FLAG LAWS FOR THIS.

IF YOU KNOW A LOVED ONE WHO'S IN CRISIS, THAT'S NOT THE TIME WHEN THEY SHOULD BE HAVING ACCESS TO A FIREARM.

SO, IF WE CAN GET UPSTREAM OF THIS, WE CAN SEE PEOPLE IN OUR LIVES WHO ARE STRUGGLING, AND THEN GET THEM THE HELP AND SUPPORT THAT THEY EED.

THAT'S REALLY WHERE THE ACTION IS.

AND THAT RELIES ON ALL OF US.

WE NEED TO BUILD THOSE SYSTEMS THAT WE FEEL COMFORTABLE SPEAKING OUT, THAT YOU'RE NOT A SNITCH IF YOU DO SO.

IN FACT, ALL YOU'RE DOING IS COMING FROM A PLACE OF CARE AND COMPASSION TO HELP SOMEBODY.

>> Eric: REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR EXPERTISE IN THIS.

THANKS VERY MUCH FOR COMING OVER.

>> Cathy: THANKS FOR YOUR WORK.

>> THANK YOU VER