[dynamic music] [light reflective music] [music continues] [indistinct] - [Speaker] Places, everyone.

[bright music] [music continues] [music continues] [music ends] [shoe scraping] [dramatic drumming] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [audience cheering] [audience applauding] [tapping continues] [drumming continues] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [music continues] [audience cheering] [audience applauding] [cheering continues] [applauding continues] - Good evening, everyone.

And let's hear it one more time for Mikiya Ito on the drums and Naomi Funaki who has tapped her heart out into [indistinct].

That was awesome.

[audience cheering] [audience applauding] They are both artists based here in New York City, but originally from Tokyo, Japan.

So, that was such a treat.

I wanna welcome you all.

I'm Juju Chang with "ABC News Nightline," and I wanna welcome you all to the WNET Group, the ALL ARTS programming tonight.

"Exploring Hate" is the initiative in partnership with the Serica Initiative, and they're really in the narrative change space in the AAPI world, and that's exactly what we're tackling tonight.

Tonight's programming is called "Voices Rising: What's Next for Asian Americans in the Arts?"

And in order to explore that is this first incredibly distinguished panel that is sitting here next to me.

So, I wanna take a chance to introduce them.

First is Qian Julie Wang, who is an author and a fabulous citizen of New York City.

She wrote "Beautiful Country: A Memoir of an Undocumented Childhood."

Next to her is Jose Antonio Vargas, author of "Dear America: Notes From an Undocumented Citizen."

You see a little bit of a theme developing.

But in order to break that theme, we have Mira Jacob, who is the author of "Good Talk: A Memoir on Conversations."

But actually you're all memoirists, and you've all told your stories and really leaned into your identities to share your art.

I wanna sort of set the stage though as we were discussing the idea of the COVID pandemic and the way that it gave birth to so much anti-AAPI hate.

And we all saw the alarming spikes at a time when the country was in lockdown.

And yet, in another way, the counteraction was that the Asian American community really galvanized and really sort of were driven towards finding our voice, fighting for our identities, and fighting for a space in this world, creative world.

So, I wonder, sort of in that context, Qian Julie, give me a sense of how your memoir, how your story, you think plays into that.

- Yeah.

I found my voice first and foremost in the courtroom.

I'm a litigator by training, and I spent a lot of years speaking up for corporations in the courtroom.

And one day I came home and I thought, "I'm telling stories, important stories, in the courtroom all day long, but I've never really looked at my own story, and I've never heard my own people's story."

Usually not in the courtroom, usually not in the media.

And that was what started me working on my book and understanding where I've come from, where we've come from as a community.

And as the hatred of COVID era rose, certainly wasn't the first time, it also helped me start to look further back into American history and understand that the very first immigration law was to exclude Chinese people like myself.

And where that peak of hatred led, and how that fed into my current day experience, both as a lawyer in the courtroom and as an author and a person who experienced living as an undocumented person.

But I have to hand it to Jose.

I heard him speak - Oh.

- when I was in law school, and by then I already was visaed and he was not.

And I just remember thinking, "I have so much privilege.

I'm a law student.

I have a visa.

And here he is outing himself, and what am I doing with my privilege?"

And that really was the beginning of me owning my story - Oh.

- and stepping into the light.

So, I have to thank you for that.

- Where was this?

[all laughing] - That is so touching.

And you have to understand this is the first time they're meeting in person.

- Yes.

- They've admired each other and DM'd each other on social media, but this is the first time.

- Where was that?

- I was at Yale.

- Oh, yes, yes.

- I think you were there.

Yeah.

- 2012.

- Yeah, yeah.

That was the year I graduated.

So I was graduating and I'm like, "I have all of this privilege before me.

I can do anything I want."

- Yeah.

- "And I'm hiding.

And this brave person is standing out and really being a voice for all of us."

- That's really kind.

I remember that event because Yale Law School has probably one of the top immigration... not just the way they teach immigration law, but just, I think it attracts lawyers who wanna practice that kinda law.

There's a center there and that's why I was there.

But yeah.

Yeah.

[Qian laughs] - So we haven't met in person before.

you just didn't meet me.

- Yeah, I just haven't... [all laughing] - But Jose, you are a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist through "The Washington Post," and yet you very bravely, as she's suggesting, outed yourself as an undocumented immigrant.

- Yeah.

- What made you wanna do that?

What courage did that take, and sort of, what was the ripple effect?

It was mighty, clearly.

- Well, what I'm remembering, when people ask me about the bravery part of it, I just keep remembering all the lawyers who said, "Don't do it."

- Mm, uh huh.

- Because you know, God bless lawyers, right?

I spoke to, like, 27 lawyers 'cause I was, I am built like a reporter constitutionally and so I wanted to understand how much trouble did I really get myself into?

And whenever the lawyers said, "Wait, what did you do?

You're gonna say this out loud?

You're gonna write it down?"

That was the thing, I'll never forget, I was getting ready to publish this essay in "The New York Times."

And a lawyer, Asian American lawyer, Sin Yen, who was for the Asian Law Caucus, called me as we were editing the essay in "The New York Times" building.

And I had emailed her the draft and she said, "You can't put there that you broke the law.

You can't put that in "The New York Times," Jose.

The moment you do that, you put a lot of things off the table."

- [Juju] Mm.

- And I was so glad she called me.

And by the way, the Asian Law Caucus is a very important organization.

Please look it up, donate to it.

I was so touched that she like...

But I remember telling her, "Well, Sin Yen, if I don't say that I broke the law, then what am I doing?"

Like, 'cause to me, the bigger question is, well, what law am I breaking?

- Mm hm.

- Mm.

- Right?

I think all you have to do is look at the history of the country and know that laws don't equal justice.

- Yep.

- Right?

And when I was preparing to do it, part of my thinking too was, "Look, my name is Jose Antonio Vargas."

As you know, when you see someone who looks Asian, who has a Spanish name, they're Filipino, right?

[all laughing] And people don't know that America owned the Philippines.

We were a property of the Philippines, like Puerto Rico in many ways still is.

And this idea of citizenship status as you...

I'm so glad you mentioned the Chinese Exclusion Act.

Like, Filipinos have a very complex history when it comes to naturalization, nationalization, citizenship.

And I actually think we as an Asian American community, we're in a really interesting... in many ways we're uniquely suited to expose America as an imperial project, and what that means.

Not that the whole world is in America, particularly Asian Americans, right?

Like, journalists.

So, some numbers.

At least 70% of all AAPI adults in this country are immigrant.

Like, we are more immigrant as a community than than the Latinae community is, or the Black community, right?

So we are the bridge to this global conversation about why are people moving?

What laws are in place?

And to be honest, politicians are not in a position to tell the truth about this, 'cause they want, they have to get elected.

Storytellers.

That is where we live, right?

And I think in many ways that's our job.

- And I think in many ways, the ripple effect, the giant ones for you is that you've turned into an activist as well.

And I want you - Yeah.

- to talk about "Defined American" in a minute, but I also wanna bring Mira into this conversation because I wanna talk to you about format a little bit because you're also an illustrator.

You do a graphic novel memoir.

- [Mira] Yes.

- Why did you choose to do it in that way?

You've also written a novel, - Yeah.

- called "Sleepwalker's Guide to Dancing."

It's about how a patriarch starts talking to ghosts.

So- - That thing.

- That thing.

Oh, that old canard.

- You know that one?

- Yeah.

How did you go about sort of, again, picking the format.

- Yeah.

- And telling your story through it.

- Yeah.

So one thing, by the way, one thing that I was thinking of when you were saying that is that...

I think it's that Suketu Mehta quote, right, that says, "We are here because you came there."

- "Because you were there."

- Right, and how, like that impact on our lives, the way that that sort of lives in us, the way that the sort of, the damage was done, and then we have been displaced, and how we came here.

Unlike both of you, my...

So, my family came here after the immigration laws changed in 1965, and we were imported, I mean, if there's a way to kind of say that, as a, I wanna say as like a doctor class almost, right?

Like, we would like these physicians to show up in America.

And when my parents came, I think it was with a fair amount of privilege and probably naivete about how America worked.

And I was raised on this idea that we get there because we work very hard.

Nevermind the many, many, many immigrant communities here that aren't brought into the country with that kind of privilege, and sort of parsing through that.

When you asked me about the book, that's what I was parsing through was this thing that for us really happened around 9/11, which is, I was brought up in a country that said, "You will have all the opportunity here.

This is what you do to succeed."

And then after 9/11, because we looked the way we did, we saw that change very quickly.

And we saw the amount of fear that was in people when they looked at us and they dealt with us.

And nevermind that in fact we were Indian American.

The way in which our bodies were policed in that moment.

And the way in which we understood, I think, that in the way that we've been dying before, "Oh, we too can be under this particular boot in an instant."

- And you talk about the fact that your family moved to New Mexico.

- Yeah.

- And that you were often mistaken for Native American or what have you.

- Native American.

Hispanic.

Right?

There's a huge, there's so many different populations and they're just trying to locate which Brown are you.

- [Juju] Yeah.

[audience chuckling] - And so, I started writing that book because I look like me, and my partner is white and Jewish, and we have a son who lands between us in the color spectrum.

And he was obsessed with Michael Jackson.

And we gave him a bunch of Michael Jackson albums, as you do.

- As one does.

- As one does.

And he said this thing I'll never forget, he'll be like, "Mommy, what color is Michael Jackson?"

And I was like, "Well..." - That's complicated.

- Yeah, exactly.

But it led us down this whole thing, 'cause I was like, well, he's white, he's Black.

And then he sort of got a little more white, and he said, "He turned white?"

And I said, "Yeah," and he goes, "Are you gonna turn white?"

[all laughing] I was like, "No," and he goes, "Am I gonna turn white?"

And I was like, "No."

He said, "What about Daddy?"

And I was like, "Daddy has always been white."

He goes, he was like, "Well, was he always?"

It was just...he was scared about what it meant.

- Yeah.

- And he was scared about what it meant to be looking like him in America.

And that was right at the rise of Trump.

And it was when he was asking these questions.

So when you asked me about format, the reason I drew that book is because when I tried to write essays about it, what I got was, "As you guys might know, there's some hatred on the internet."

[all chuckling] I got a lot of people saying that never happened.

These things are not things we're going through.

So, I just drew us almost as paper dolls.

- [Juju] Wow.

- And then put the dialogue in so you could sort of choose to read the dialogue or not.

But what I wasn't doing was arguing about whether or not the story was true.

- And Qian Julie, before you landed at Yale Law School, you came to this country undocumented.

There's this little bullet point that you, your writing skill was so advanced that you were accused of plagiarism.

And so you did the thing that Asians do, which is you rendered yourself invisible.

- Yeah.

- And in many ways, you grew up in Chinatown.

I'm curious, obviously there are so many aspects of it that you write about in "Beautiful Country," but in one of the aspects is that you literally worked alongside your family in really horrible working conditions.

- Yeah, so my parents were professors in China.

I come from a line of dissident writers.

And so my father- - Apple, tree.

- Yeah.

[all laughing] - Yeah, didn't- - Or no, sorry, acorn, tree.

- I didn't even leave the tree.

I'm still on the tree.

My father was a literature professor.

My mother was a mathematics professor.

And as far as I could remember, my mom was developing computer science at the very pioneer...in the 80s.

And we came here and my mom worked in a sweatshop.

She was making five cents per article of clothing.

My dad was in a laundromat going through pockets and like keeping whatever change that people forgot to take out.

And yeah, I sat next to my mom and I just, I saw how the dehumanization got internalized.

She became robotic.

- Yeah.

- She was not like that before, but it was just...

When you do 14 hours of feeding cloth into a sewing machine, it does something to your soul.

I saw my parents kind of wither, and I think everyone remembers when you're little and your parents are God-like, and as long as they were okay, everything was fine, 'cause they had it under control.

And the minute I stepped foot in JFK Airport, it was not, it's not the case anymore.

My parents started to look small.

They started to look tired.

They had slurs thrown at them, and they were just quiet.

They just pretended they didn't hear.

They pretended they didn't take up any space at all in the world.

So yeah, I was accused of plagiarism actually in fifth grade, in seventh grade, in tenth grade.

And then when I was seven years out of law school by my boss who had seen me argue in court, who had seen me develop briefs and arguments from the ground up, seen me argue in federal appellate court in front of three judges just barreling questions at me, each time the refrain was the same.

It's like, "I thought you were an immigrant.

There's no way you wrote this."

- Right.

- And in fifth grade, my teacher made me define the big words that I guess he didn't know.

[all laughing] - That's crazy.

Boom.

- Well, it's fascinating to me because it really...

I also read that you wrote the novel on your iPhone?

- Yeah, on my way to work, so- - Because it was at, was it Cleary Gottlieb?

- Which- - No, - Kirkland and Ellis.

- I was at Kirkland and Ellis, which was another one of those.

- Yeah.

And now you're at Gottlieb and?

- Wang, which is my own firm, - Wang.

- which, yeah.

- You're own firm, yeah.

We'll get to the legal activism in a minute.

But I do think that that's a very common refrain, to watch your parents be torn down.

And there's a description of your book where you say, "This family falls apart under the weight of invisibility."

- Yeah, absolutely.

And so, what was reassuring to my parents and to me was that they kept saying, "At one point, you'll earn your way out of this," kind of like what Mira said.

There's a meritocracy in America, you'll earn your way out of being told you must have copied this brief 'cause it's too good to have come from your brain.

Like, you will prove yourself to be above racism and bigotry.

And I got to a point where I made partner in a fancy firm, and I was still facing the same challenges.

- Which is one of the archetypes about Asian Americans is that we're the perpetual foreigner, that regardless of how accomplished you are, or how many degrees you have, you're an immigrant to this country.

Your brain, therefore- - Yeah, I was just gonna ask, has anyone earned their way out of it yet?

I just wanna know, like have- - I still get- - Okay, just checking.

- I still get, "You speak English really well."

[audience exclaiming] - [Panelists] Yeah.

- And I think I've come up with a pretty good refrain for that which is, "Thank you, so do you."

- Great.

- That's great.

- Yeah, because it's just a light little jab back to just say, "Think about what you're saying and why for a second."

- So when I, I just, I'll finish- - Please, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- When I realized there was no earning my way out of it, I collapsed.

It was all I worked toward all my life.

And it was like there was no out.

And I realized instead, after some time of depression, and I realized that instead of looking outward for approval, I needed to tend to the little girl who was still hiding inside.

And that's what I did- - That's beautiful.

Jose, I read that you discovered that you were undocumented when you went to go find your driver's license or apply for a driver's license?

- Yeah.

- When I tried to apply for driver's license.

- It's very Olivia Rodrigo of you.

- Oh [laughs].

[audience laughs] - Who is Filipino, by the way.

- Also Filipina, by the way.

Ooh, see what I did there?

That was on accident.

- Yeah [laughs].

What was that like that, that revelation for you and unpeeling that onion?

- Yeah, and it was in Mountain View across the street from Target is where the DMV was.

- [Juju] Wow.

- I was listening...

I had my Walkman and it was Alanis Morissette and Boyz II Men in a mixed tape.

- Really good, really good mix tape there.

- Wow.

- Wow, you guys are young.

[panelists laughing] - And I biked and then the woman at the DMV looked at the green card and she said it was fake.

That's how I found out.

And but then, this is in California in 1997, right?

So post-Proposition 187.

I don't know if people remember what that was.

That was Governor Pete Wilson was basically saying, "These illegals, these aliens," right?

And as an immigrant, all immigrants beyond old, all we know about America is what media we consume.

So when the moment the woman said it was fake, all I could think of was, "I'm not Mexican."

[audience laughs] - Mm, mm.

- Isn't that awful?

In my head, I was like, "Oh, she looked up my name: Jose Antonio Vargas.

She's probably thinking I'm Mexican.

I'm not Mexican.

This is not fake.

I'm Filipino."

I just...so that's why I thought maybe she was wrong.

- Oh my goodness.

- So I did not, I didn't even, like, I just figured she was wrong.

And in many ways she was really the person, mind you, I don't know this woman's name.

She had curly hair.

She had glasses.

She could have been Puerto Rican.

She could...

I don't know what she was.

And she just said, "This is fake.

Don't come back here again."

And again, this internalized Mexican illegal thing.

And I'm saying that because of this work that I've done now for 13 years, wearing a t-shirt says, "Define American."

I'll never forget.

I was in an airport in Birmingham, Alabama.

I flew to Alabama because Alabama was trying to out Arizona, Arizona.

This was in 2011.

They were like, "If you were driving me, you can get arrested."

I went there and I started filming.

I was making a documentary.

And this woman just started running towards me.

[chuckles] She was a lawyer, a Mexican American lawyer.

She said, "I am so happy you're not Mexican."

I was like, "What?"

I guess when my essay was published, she was like, she looked at "The New York Times."

It was like, "Oh, Jose Antonio Vargas.

Oh, great."

And then she looked at my face.

"Oh, not Latino."

'Cause she said she was, whenever this issue came up, it was always about Mexican people.

- Mm.

- That she was so happy that someone spoke up who wasn't.

- [Juju] Mm.

- And I say that at a time, it was really through traveling these past 12 years now.

I did not realize how for many people, illegal and Mexican are interchangeable.

You would literally be having a conversation with people, didn't matter if I was in Wisconsin, Ohio, Arkansas, where people would be like, "Oh, so you're illegal."

I'm like, "Nope, I'm undocumented."

"And you're not Mexican?"

It's been so...

This is decades.

This has been a decades long media project.

- But that's also the invisibility of the Asian American community.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- Yeah.

- because there are high rates of undocumented Asian Americans.

- One out of seven.

- One out of seven.

- One out of seven asian immigrants in this country is undocumented.

- In the tri-state area, there are poverty rates, 18% uninsured rates, one in every four.

I mean, it's just on and on, but all of it's invisible because you walk right by.

- And right now in this country, they're saying 1.7 million undocumented AAPIs.

Indians are now number one.

Indians and Chinese than Filipinos, right?

So for me, that's why it's important that we figure out a way to tell these stories in all the different genres and platforms - Sure.

- that we need to be telling it.

- Mira, I want you to comment on any of this, but I'm also curious what you guys think about this idea of telling your story, leaning into your identity at a time when DEI is getting so much pushback.

- Yeah.

- When identity politics is becoming so divisive, right?

So, we talked about the start in 2020 and here we are in 2024... - Yeah.

- post SCOTUS ruling, post changes in the temperature.

- Mm hm.

I think we always have this, when something like DEI is suddenly in the hot seat, where when there's a judgment about that, there's a tendency to wanna say, "No, I am not that.

I am not the thing you object to.

I am my own person."

And one of the things I think that is so hard about being attached to this space and this body is that because we will never be seen as truly American in many ways, right?

You are located by that initiative no matter what.

You are tied to that initiative no matter what.

One of the things I'm always thinking of is how do we, as Indian Americans and as South Asian Americans, how do we step into the conversation where we're not taking the burden of the shame on for saying, "I go through this.

I deal with this.

This is what the violence in my life looks like.

This is what... And I don't always have to pretend to align myself with whiteness to be safe."

And that's something that frankly in my culture, you learn very early on and you learn it through all sorts of, you learn it through colorism.

You learn it in a million different ways that come from that country and this one.

And you learn how to organize yourself to stay invisible and also under the shadow of whiteness for protection.

So much of the work that I am doing and I've constantly been doing is trying to say, "You're not safe there.

That is not safe for you."

Like staying under that shadow and aligning yourself with whiteness in a way where you will never be seen as a full person.

It's never gonna be okay for you.

In the same way that you were saying, I'm never gonna get to the place where I'm finally just seen for my own merit, right?

You're buying into a system that inherently devalues you.

And to do that, it's such a huge cost.

- You all do so much beyond your storytelling.

Qian Julie, I know that your law firm looks at legal solutions, for educational solutions, for equity.

Tell us about the work that you do.

- Yeah, we focus our work on educational civil rights, mostly focused on children from marginalized backgrounds.

Most of our clients are from single parent homes, immigrants of color.

Most of our clients have learning or physical disabilities.

Really, really on the margins where nobody really considers how these children are educated and how they're supported and trying to break that school to prison pipeline.

My passion for it comes from the fact that when I came here in '94.

I was seven.

I went to school in Chinatown.

98% of the students there were Chinese, but they were Chinese American.

They spoke English and I didn't speak any English and they had no idea what to do with me.

So they put me in a special ed classroom where the teacher also didn't know what to do with me because she was one very young teacher with like 20 children with different needs.

And thank goodness I didn't have any learning disabilities.

I just started reading books and just piecing words together.

If I hadn't been able to do that, that's a profound privilege.

If I hadn't been able to do that, I would not be anywhere close to where I am now.

- Wow.

- And so people ask me now why I choose to continue to litigate and work on narrative storytelling.

And it's really two sides of the same coin.

I think of litigation as Western medicine.

You have a cut.

You have a sore.

It's already there.

You're already sick.

You need to put a Band-Aid on it.

You need to put something to address it.

Writing and storytelling is Eastern medicine.

You're healing the body holistically.

You're educating children from an early age that it's okay to be everything they are and in the full diversity of the word.

And to own that in every space, no matter where they are, no matter what other people say to them about who they are.

This idea that Mira talks about, of being safe versus being integral and being whole are very different framings.

And in my work with youth, both in book tours and in the legal realm, I'm seeing the next generation come up just with a different framework and a different perspective.

And whenever I feel like the future is in abyss, I turn to the youth that we work with and they give me so much hope.

- So, this is about access, but I'm curious your thoughts on, all three of your thoughts on, book banning or curricular restrictions that we're seeing, and banning, right?

- Histories?

- Histories.

- Entire histories of people.

- Critical race theory, et cetera.

- Thoughts?

You have thoughts?

- I have some thoughts, yeah.

- Share your thoughts, Mira.

- Technically.

Yeah, no, but it is really interesting because it is actually a fight for the collective consciousness of a country, right?

In which many of us know these stories.

We hold these stories.

We understand what our histories are.

We're trying to piece them together and say, this is who we are and as quickly as we can do it.

And one of the things I'm really passionate about is getting out the stories of marginalized communities, and I teach to that very much in my workshops.

But- - You teach at The New School.

- Yeah, - to tell people... - I teach at The New School and I teach creative writing and one of the things that I think about a lot is how do you workshop in a way where you're getting rid of the colonial idea of "There's only one way to write a story and it's this way and this is the story that's most important."

As fast as my students can make their stories, which are so potent and beautiful, is as fast as they are getting banned and pulled off of shelves because I think when we know ourselves and when we read ourselves, the power that we feel in that moment changes us so inherently in our positioning in the world.

And I do think that power is very much feared.

- And it's such a important part of belonging.

We were looking at this TAF status report and they're saying that nearly 80% of Asian Americans report that they do not completely feel like they belong or are accepted in mainstream society.

And I think that kind of educational narrative change is crucial to that.

But I'm curious, Jose, you've got your beautiful pamphlet in your lap - Oh.

- and you have a quite robust nonprofit called "Define American" and you're goin' at it.

- It's probably the hardest thing I've done in this...

It's incredible.

If you would've told me that the hardest thing I'd do coming out as undocumented was actually starting an organization, I would've not believed that.

- Right, because you launched a Broadway show and you did win - Yeah, I've done - a Pulitzer and you - a lot of other stuff.

- did write a novel or two.

- That's the thing.

- Our job is, if you wanna tell an immigrant story... so, in this country right now, right?

45 million immigrants.

Those are just the immigrants.

We're not even counting their kids or their grandkids.

In the next 50 years, according to Pew, 88% of the population growth of the country is gonna come from those 45 million immigrants.

Right?

So if you wanna tell an immigrant story, whether through books or TV shows or films or theater, right?

Like, how can we help make sure that you actually have accurate information?

You have facts, right?

That you don't fall into the good immigrant narrative?

That you don't place Asian Americans in this model minority myth that we can't hold and neither can you, right?

Like, how do we talk about the fact that in this country, one out of 10 Black people in the country is a Black immigrant, right?

The Black immigrant population is significant.

And yet, when we talk in the immigrant rights space, Black people and voices and stories are often not included.

We have made this issue in many ways be a part of this cultural, this historical kind of reducted project.

As you were talking, I kept thinking Baldwin, right?

James Baldwin who said that this country is amnesia, right?

The historical amnesia that this country has.

I was doing an event in North Carolina a long time ago and I was talking about, there's 2 million Filipinos in California.

2 million...

I'm not sure by the way that the undocumented Filipinos are counted in those 2 million.

So, I said this out loud in North Carolina at this event and this elderly man at the end got up and said, "Why are there so many of you here?"

And I was like, "Clearly he has not had Filipino food because he would not..." [all laughing] And then I said, "Sir..." The quote I used was, "We are here 'cause you were there."

- Yeah.

- And he didn't know that.

He didn't know that America was taken by the Philippines.

So if you don't even know that, if you can't even face that Black people built this country, that you displace Indigenous people, if you can't even deal with that, how are you gonna deal with - the 45 million immigrants that got here after the 1965 Immigration Act?

And I bet you most people in America don't even know what the 1965 Immigration Act is.

- Right.

- And how that forever changed the demographic makeup of this country and that how we owe Black people and their allies who fought for the civil rights movement, and that's why we're here.

So, all of this is connected.

And Juju, the question I ask myself, this is why that's our name, right?

It is the question of how do you define who and what an American is?

I think that's the question.

And in some ways the elections that we've been having, we're seeing people's answers to that question, right?

But the invisibility part, as you were talking, I have to tell you, I was really [chuckles], the internalized part of this to me is what I don't have much language for yet.

And how do we make sure that we are not just here as workers and consumers, that we're here as citizens, that we actually vote.

I was stunned when President Trump was elected, the first time around he was elected.

I started asking my family members who voted.

And the people in my family...

I'm the only one who was undocumented.

Everybody is naturalized or have papers.

I was stunned at how many people who actually could have voted did not vote because they have already internalized this feeling that they're nothing but labor.

That this is where we get our Costco cards and we have Macy's credit cards, but we don't vote because that's for the Americans.

That's not for us.

That to me is a stunning reality that we have to face.

- Do you, in your narratives, are you conscious of trying to either appeal through your personal narrative or how conscious are you of trying to break tropes, whether it's fetishized Asian American women or the model minority myth, or whatever those tropes are, as you're setting about putting fingers to iPhone as in your case or pen to paper?

- So- - I think- - Oh, sorry, you wanna go ahead?

- Oh, I was just gonna say this internalized thing is something I also struggle with because as you're saying that just now, I just thought, "I've always thought of, even if I use my voice, no one's gonna care, no one's gonna listen."

And I'm a litigator.

Like, my job is to make people listen and believe me.

And I still think that.

So, the only way I was able to write my book, I think, was so casually on an iPhone on my commute because I told myself, "No one is ever gonna read this.

First of all, nobody cares.

Secondly, I will die if someone reads this because I'm gonna get deported.

My whole family will be deported.

Our lives will end and I have to protect my parents."

And so I couldn't even get out of my head.

I was just like, this is for me, this is like a diary.

Like, it's so casual.

I'm writing in the notes app.

This is not a book.

That I had to trick myself into owning that story.

- Oh, that's heartbreaking.

- In that quiet space.

And of course, having it out in the world was another step of healing where I saw that it meant that people were listening, that people were reading.

And I still didn't quite believe it even when I wasn't in spaces where people told me as much.

But I think it's a process, right?

Because we have to realize that we are also consumers of some of America's lies and it's groomed us as well as many people around us.

- We're closing out on the final round.

So, just give us some thoughts on either what I just asked about tropes or about how conscious you are about your narrative or even just what it means to be an American as we close out the segment.

- One of the things that you were just talking about, the idea of who do you write for and how do you write, how much of your story and how do you express that?

And are you working toward a stereotype or not?

One of the things that I'm always trying to think of is how do you drop into the center of a truth that might be really uncomfortable, a truth that your family might have told you to hide, a truth that you might have protected yourself from because of fear of America.

And the way that I do that and the thing I tell my students always is something that Kiese Laymon once said which was, "Write for us."

And that us cannot be defined by a single consensus box.

That us is the us that is holding on to this story.

That is very hard to tell but when you imagine, and I do this often, that when I'm writing something exceptionally vulnerable that I am scared of and that I have to walk my way toward, if I imagine that there is an us out there who needs the story as much as I need to write it, I can brave up to that place.

- Wow.

As a reader, I have to say, when I read Jhumpa Lahiri's books, I so, as a Korean American immigrant, so related to those immigrant stories, even though it all, the colors were different, the smells and the tastes were different, but it resonated so deeply.

Jose, why don't you bring us home?

- Well... [all laughing] I was just thinking go back to the earned part because I actually think that's, when I was writing "Dear America," I had a sentence...

I was writing this in an Airbnb in Berkeley, way up in the hills 'cause I was like, "No excuses, I'm on deadline.

I have to finish this thing.

I can't get out.

Lemme just..." And I wrote, "Home is not something I should have to earn."

And then I'm like, "Whoa, wait, what did I just say?"

[chuckles] And as an Asian, as a Filipino, as a Filipino American, as an Asian American, I think this earning narrative that we have internalized is a part of when we talk about defining "American."

It's something that we all have to examine from within us.

I was in front of a very not friendly audience and I said, 'cause you know, people say - I'm undocumented.

- people say that people like me should earn our citizenship.

So, I like to turn it around and I'm like, "What have you done to earn yours?

Born here?

That's it?

The accident of birth?

America got to be so great 'cause you were just born here?"

Right?

So, the glove has to be pulled inside out, right?

Like, don't ask us to earn something that you haven't even figured out how and why to earn it.

- I love it.

The glove has to be turned inside out.

Appreciate your thoughts and your wisdom and your artistry.

Thank you so much for sharing all of it with us tonight.

Mira, Jose Antonio, Qian Julie, thank you.

[audience applauding] [audience cheering] We have another treat coming up.

We are about to hear the comic stylings of Pooja Reddy, raised in rural Kentucky with roots in India, and she will crack us up.

So, stay tuned.

[audience applauding] [audience cheering] - Hello, hello.

I am Pooja.

It is so wonderful to be here during AAPI month representing Asian American creatives, which is what I am.

I definitely do not identify with being a Asian woman in STEM, I will say.

And you know why?

It's because technology makes me so anxious because I feel like our devices know way too much about us.

Matter of fact, I'm curious, does anyone here work in tech?

Okay, I've identified the problem [laughs].

[audience laughs] No, thank you for being here [laughs].

[audience laughs] I just feel like my phone knows way too much about me and all this stuff that you wouldn't want anyone to know about you, right?

Like, if you all saw how I used the calculator app on my phone, you would judge me because I be calculating some dumb stuff.

Make some noise if you calculate some dumb stuff, too.

[audience applauding] [audience cheering] Yeah, okay.

All of the Asian people who did not go to Kumon clapped and I love that.

[audience laughs] We are here in community together.

You know how Spotify sends you a "Wrapped" at the end of the year with the songs that you listened to the most?

My biggest nightmare is if the calculator app sent me a Wrapped with my most used calculations, because I'm afraid it would just be 13 + 9 over and over and over again.

[audience laughs] It is so nice to be here in New York City.

I've lived here for a few years now, but I'm actually from a tiny farming community in the Bible belt of rural Kentucky.

Yes.

And I know that's confusing.

I know it's confusing 'cause I look like a subway riding, "New Yorker" subscribing, broke Mindy Kaling.

But the voice inside this head, well, it's just of an old white man named Everett.

[audience laughs] Yes, we can thank my parent's green card sponsor Everett for that.

[audience laughs] Yes [laughs].

I feel like people up here in New York get quite dramatic when I say that I grew up in the South.

They'll be like, "Kentucky, ugh!

What was it like in Kentucky?

Do they even know what India is?"

Now, I think that's real thick coming from New Yorkers who think everything south of here is just Texas.

[audience laughs] [chuckles] And listen, the people in my town actually did know where India was.

Many of them had been there on their church's mission trip.

[audience laughs] And before y'all pull back on me on that one, [audience laughs] I feel like there are some people in this room have gone on their own mission trips to India.

Sir [chuckles].

In that anytime you go there to eat, pray, or love, you are on a mission to tell me about it.

[audience laughs] Do we know people like this in New York?

I feel like sometimes I'll be minding my own Brown business and then a Fulbright scholar will materialize in front of me and they'll be like, "Hey, did you hear this weekend I made samosas from scratch."

I'm like, "From scratch?

What the...?

Are you trying to connect with me or shame me?"

On my best day I'm heating up frozen samosas from Trader Joe's.

[audience laughs] Yeah, I mess with him too.

Keep your voice down, Jessica.

I don't need my amama to hear this, okay?

I know.

I really did love growing up in the South.

I will say that my Indian parents were not prepared for how much the South was gonna rub off on me, though.

Because by the end of elementary school I was so southern that if Nikki Haley had met me even she would be like, "Yuck, get this hillbilly away from me [chuckles]."

[audience laughs] I was so southern that the summer I turned 10, I begged my parents to let me go to sleep away camp that was run by the Department of Fish and Wildlife.

[audience laughs] I think the only reason they even let me go is because it was called Camp Curry.

[audience laughs] They were like, "Camp Curry?

Finally, our daughter is showing an interest in cooking."

Couldn't have been farther than the truth.

The objective of Camp Curry was to earn your hunting, fishing, boating, and firearm license, which I got.

[audience laughs] Yeah [laughs].

[audience cheering] [audience applauding] Yeah.

Uh oh!

No one was messing with me for being in the chess club that year [chuckles].

[audience laughs] At the end of the summer, I came home wearing head to toe camo, carrying a shotgun, just lookin' like a little redneck Dora the Explorer.

[audience laughs] I feel like there's some people in the back that are looking at me as if I have the gun on me right now.

Don't be ridiculous, it is at home, okay [chuckles]?

[audience laughs] I know that my mom was quite disappointed that I didn't learn how to make biryani that summer, but she was surprisingly supportive of her little sharpshooter.

[audience laughs] 'Cause one time I heard my aunt say, "Did you hear, cousin Ashish just broke the record for speed solving the Rubik's cube?"

And my mom was like, "Did you hear the United States Army has already recruited Pooja because she has perfect aim [laughs]."

[audience laughs] Safe to say that I have been in therapy since then [laughs].

[audience laughs] Do we have any other therapy goers here?

Clap if you are in therapy.

[audience cheering] [audience applauding] Yes, incredible.

So for those of you who didn't clap, [audience laughs] so are y'all just choosing to be toxic this year?

What's up [laughs]?

I really used to love therapy.

I used to love it.

But recently my therapist Rachel weaponized literature against me in a way that shook me to my core, okay?

Because here are the self-help books that Therapist Rachel wants me to read.

Should I share them with you all?

- [Audience Members] Yes.

- Okay, here is the first one.

"How To Ditch Anxiety, Depression, and Self-Hate, Even Though You Are Incapable of Change."

[audience laughs] I know.

The second one was just called "MATH," all caps.

[audience laughs] Okay?

And here is the last one before I get out of here.

"Chicken Soup For The Indian Girl's Soul, Who Was The Only Indian Girl In Her School From K Through 12, Where Sometimes Her Classmates Would Pronounce Her Name As Poo-ha As A Way To Connect With Her Mexican Heritage."

[audience laughs] And you know what, y'all?

Sometimes you do just have to lean in a bit and say, "Sí.

Yo soy Poo-ha."

Thank you so much.

[audience cheering] [audience applauding] - Isn't Pooja hysterical?

She is one half of the comedy group with Kutti Gang and they headlined at Carolines in the New York Harmony Festival recently.

So, Google her up and make sure you catch more of her comedy.

This is our second panel, as you can see.

Another collection of incredibly impressive talent.

This panel is a conversation about their remarkable careers, groundbreaking in so many ways and their more recent projects that are coming around the corner.

I don't know how you're not sweating right now, David, because it's- - Makeup.

- Yes, exactly.

And in talking about sort of what's next in the arts for the Asian American community.

So, I wanna introduce you to the man on my left, the very distinguished David Henry Hwang, who's the playwright of a play that's starting in the fall called "Yellow Face."

He is also opening next week an opera called "An American Soldier," which we'll talk about.

It opens May 12th.

And sitting next to him is Rosalind Chao, who everyone recognizes from stage and screen.

She's in the "3 Body Problem," right, on Netflix?

And, yes.

[audience applauding] Right?

- Yay [chuckles].

- I happen to love you as Mulan's mother, but that's just me as a mom.

- Oh, oh.

- And you are playing opposite the fabulous BD Wong, who everyone knows as well.

- Lucky me.

[audience applauding] - And they're playing in an incredibly interesting play.

Obviously, "M. Butterfly," you hit the ceiling and beyond with that, obviously, the two of you.

But obviously your career has been so rich throughout.

And we'll hit on some of those.

But I wanna start with this play that you guys are dueting in starting in mid-May.

And it's an interesting sort of look at diaspora.

- [Rosalind and BD] Yes.

- ...that's a story of two siblings.

One born here, one born there.

- Right?

- And sort of what that means.

It's called "What Became of Us?"

But BD, - Yes.

- why don't you start?

Tell us a bit about it.

- Well, I love the play because it is written in a poetically, neutrally ethnic way and that affords the production the ability to have different casts from different cultures play these same parts.

It is a brother-sister relationship, it's a little bit about how when you were born and where you were born affects your relationship to your parents and to each other.

And so, we have very different relationships to our parents in the play- - And two identities, too.

- [Rosalind And BD] And two identities.

- And birth order, how that affects.

So, it really does cross all... it's not just about immigrants, but it is about immigrants as well.

- Yes, yeah.

- So yeah, we've found that people from all walks of life seem to be drawn to it.

- It's quite beautiful.

It's beautifully written by Shayan Lotfi, who is the playwright.

- Oo.

- And it's a debut for him and it's a beautifully written play.

- It's beautiful.

- And so Rosalind, how would you characterize the characters?

Describe who they are and how they interact?

- Well, she's a good one and he's a... She was born in the other country, whichever the other country is.

And as a result has a little bit more of a bond with her parents as any older child does.

But it's exponentially more because she was born in the other country and remembers the language of the old country.

And then comes number two.

And there's a little bit of a dynamic where it's a difference.

It's a cultural shift as well that happens in households of immigrants.

I'm sure it's very familiar to all of us and so many people that I've spoken to who come from immigrant families who've read it, each person feels like it's about them.

So, that's how you know it's a wonderful play.

- [BD] Yeah.

- We have a crew of all people who are children of immigrants and they, each one thinks it's their story, but it's not, it's really mine.

[audience laughs] - Yeah.

And so, I'm curious about "An American Soldier," right?

I mean, that's your next big production.

- Yeah.

- Tell me about what drew you to the story.

What makes it an opera in your view?

And just tell me the story of the private.

- So, it's the story of, based on the true story of Private Danny Chen.

And he was a- - Not to be confused with Vincent Chen.

- Right.

- Another historic figure - Right, yes.

- in the Asian community.

- Right, and Danny was a Chinatown kid, born and raised in Lower Manhattan and enlisted in the U.S. Army in 2011, and was sent to the Kandahar region of Afghanistan where he was basically kind of racially hazed to death.

And I was approached- - I remember reading about this, yeah.

- Yeah, I was approached by a woman named Liz OuYang, who is a civil rights attorney and advocate.

And she asked me if I wanted to write a play about Danny, and I actually didn't because just, it just didn't fit into my sort of aesthetic interests at the time.

I tend to, in recent years, I've written more sort of meta things and comedies and like the show we're doing on Broadway this fall.

But the composer, Huang Ruo had a commission from Washington National Opera in D.C. and we were looking for something to do together.

And so, we actually thought this would be a great story for an opera because opera's sort of big and emotional and primary colors and love and death.

And so, we did a one hour version of it in Washington D.C. which we then had an opportunity to expand into a full length version in St. Louis.

But we really made a commitment to the family, which has been incredibly supportive of this opera, even though it's been very painful for them to relive all this.

- Mm hm, sure.

- And we made a commitment, we would do our best to bring Danny's story back to New York because this is where he's from and this is where his family is and the people who knew him.

And there's only really one major opera company in New York, which is The Met.

So, very fortunately for us, this new artistic center, PAC NYC, which is built at the World Trade Center, opened this year.

And- - I'm told it's a beautiful facility.

- It's a fantastic building.

It's a great theater where you can kinda go there and hang out.

They have like free entertainment in the lobby and they committed to bring the story here.

So, this gives us finally the opportunity to bring Danny home.

- That's beautiful to New York.

That is beautiful.

- That is wonderful.

[audience applauding] - And so, Rosalind and BD, I'm curious, you're on productions that aren't necessarily Asian American stories or storylines or cast or productions.

And how much do you try to pick and choose your projects and this both of you, to align with that kind of storytelling?

- Well, I think the choices are super complicated and there's choices about every aspect of any production, the role, the quality of the role, the role that the role plays in the bigger picture of the project.

The way that your ethnicity or your race is positioned in that, or not positioned in the project and how much you're getting paid and where you're going and all of the things.

So, it ends up being really maddening to make these choices, I think.

It has always been really tricky to negotiate the minefield of whether or not you can continue to make a living and also feel good about everything that you're doing.

- That's such real talk.

[BD laughs] Yeah, no, seriously.

And yet you must enjoy being parts of these passion projects where- - Yeah, absolutely.

- Yeah, it's about the community, right?

- Absolutely.

- Yes.

- I live for the roles that they have written, not necessarily Asian, but then I get to step in them.

That's delicious.

- Yes.

- But it's also wonderful when you finally get to work with other Asian Americans who you've enjoyed watching like Benny Wong and people like that.

And there is a sense of community and BD, there's a short, shorthand, you know?

- Yeah.

- So, even though we're not getting paid much, but like something like this play when it came across and BD texts me and was like, "Are you dah, dah, dah, dah, dah."

And once I read it, I thought, "You know what?"

There's just...it's either the material or the people you're working with.

For me, the people I'm working with is huge.

All it takes is for me to hear about one bad apple and I'm not so interested - If you'll stay, yeah.

- because one bad apple can ruin the whole bunch, girl [chuckles].

- But it's also about the writing too.

And it is a very beautifully written play.

And it makes me remember when I made my Broadway debut in David's play, and I'd never read a play of this quality, with his voice, of this skill.

And I was amazed that there was an opportunity such as that.

And it's never really been quite the same as all of those things coming together for me at that time.

And I think that's really important.

I think it's like, you have to really recognize it when it's happening.

- You can't fake the material.

- Absolutely.

- If the script's bad... - And I want you to elaborate on "M. Butterfly" because there may be some in the audience who are so young, they certainly might not have been able to see it in person.

And yet, you won all five New York Theater Awards with your performance.

Drama Desk Award, Outer Critics Award, Theater Award- - [Rosalind] Oh, now he's gonna be impossible to work with.

- Tony, yeah.

- Shh.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- As if I won them already.

- Who says that?

- It was groundbreaking in so many ways, and yet David, maybe give us a plot summary, and how some of those very interesting issues around identity still linger to today.

- Yeah, so obviously we were incredibly lucky to find BD, but it's another based on a true story.

I think this is my brand.

- Yes.

Ripped from the headlines.

That's right.

- About a French diplomat who had a 20 year affair with a Chinese actress who turned out to be A, a spy and B, male.

And when they were arrested and all this came out, the diplomat claimed that he never knew the gender of his lover.

So, as a author, this raised a very obvious question for me.

How could the diplomat not have known?

And it's- - We all walked outta the theater shaking our heads, scratching our heads at it, it was amazing.

- And- - And your performance was incredible.

- And BD did the original production on Broadway with John Lithgow as the diplomat.

And it has had several different iterations, but I think particularly when there was a version that we did on Broadway again in 2017, and I was looking at the issues in the play, and certainly our understanding of gender has changed a lot since 1988 when the original play happened, as well as the power balance between East and West.

In 1988 there was sort of the sense that China might rise, but basically if anybody was feeling that there was a major Asian power on the horizon, it was Japan.

So, lots of things have changed and yet, I feel like the play continues to investigate questions that we're still trying to figure out, not to mention- - And, oh, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but you're doing it again in London as an opera, right?

- Well, yeah, we're doing an opera version of it.

I have a lot of opera happening.

[all laughing] And with the same composer that I worked on "American Soldier" with Huang Ruo, and we're doing it at the Barbican in London in October.

- How does the character, the role, the play or the musical, rather, resonate with you to this day, BD?

- The thing that resonates for me to this day was David's hypothetical answer to the question, how could he not know?

And his answer is laced with the, a discussion about racism, about stereotyping, about a misunderstanding people of different colors, about coveting someone of a certain race and objectifying them.

And these things are all still very real.

- Fetishizing.

- Yeah.

- Yes, and that's a big part of the center of their relationship.

And so, the play really to me holds up in many ways aside from the discussion that we could have about gender and how we, nothing's, a reveal where someone is, who presents as a woman is actually what we call a man is not a big deal anymore.

- Right, right.

- And it was a really big deal then actually.

- It was quite shocking.

- It was shocking.

- Yeah, and there's still the feminization of Asian males and the de-sexualization of 'em.

- Yes.

- That still is, that exists to this day.

- I wanna explore a personal note with you, Rosalind.

I read that your parents were Peking opera singers.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Performers.

- Yeah, my uncle was as well, yeah.

- [Juju] And your family... And they came to the States and did the immigrant thing.

- Yes.

- And yet encouraged you - And worked in a restaurant.

- to be a performer and worked in a restaurant.

Did a- - Well, they didn't really encourage it.

They encouraged me to be in their Peking opera shows outside of their Peking opera shows, maybe not so interested because it interfered with school.

So, as long as it didn't interfere with school, it was a go.

- So, they stayed true to the tiger parents.

- Yeah.

Well, they weren't tiger...

I was latchkey, but in theory they still wanted me to do well in, despite the fact that they didn't wanna have anything to do with it [chuckles].

- But it was a very like, obviously, prestigious interesting line of work.

And then to come to the States and be worked in that immigrant- - Well they weren't professional... My uncle was a professional Peking opera singer, but my parents had a love for it.

Let's put it that way.

And started a Chinese opera club here.

And that was their first love I would venture to say.

Yeah, so.

- Was that in New York?

Where was that?

- That was...they started in New York and then they were in LA.

I played boys.

- Ah, interesting.

And yet they must have so proud of you entering into entertainment and- [Rosalind laughs] [audience laughs] No?

- Were they?

- BD knows so much because we're- - [Juju] BD's like, "Are you gonna tell them this?"

- Yeah [laughs].

- Well, we're in this rehearsal room where we're really swapping stories about our parents and I feel like people in that rehearsal room that I've only met two weeks ago probably know more about my upbringing that than people who've known me for years, than you've known.

- I've known you since you were 18 and I didn't know - I know, that's true.

- you came from a Peking opera background.

[audience laughs] Like, I'm learning it on TV.

- It's my dirty little secret, yeah.

- And so, so they weren't particularly...

I feel like a therapist now.

- Yeah.

- So tell us, share us your feeling.

[Juju laughs] - They weren't overly enthusiastic, especially as I got older, my dad used to say, "Oh, okay, okay, that's a hobby."

But now what?

- Yes.

- So- - But you were in "Joy Luck Club."

- Yeah.

- I mean, we all looked at you like you were the queen.

Crazy.

You were breakin' barriers.

- You know what?

Anytime somebody says they recognize me from "Joy Luck Club," I always know they love their mother.

- [Juju] Aw, I'm gonna tell my mother that.

- Yes, do.

- So David, I want you to talk about "Yellow Face" and the issues that it brings up in the way actors are cast.

So, tell the audience, if you will, another plot line ripped from the headline.

- Right.

- And this is coming out in the fall with Daniel Dae Kim.

- Yeah, so- - A little known low profile guy.

- Yeah [chuckles].

So, "Yellow Face" is kind of an unreliable memoir about a Tony Award-winning playwright named David Henry Hwang, [Juju laughs] who protests the casting of a white actor, Jonathan Price, as the Asian lead in the original production of "Miss Saigon" when it comes to Broadway with, BD was also very much involved in.

But then in the play, David then inadvertently casts a white actor as the Asian lead in his own show, thinking that the actor is of mixed race and when he finds out that the actor's actually just white, he tries to cover up his blunder to protect his reputation as an Asian American role model.

- Oh [chuckles].

- And so, it is- - And you are the unreliable narrator, clearly.

- I'm the unreliable narrator.

And it's an opportunity to, yeah, to look at some of these issues of representation and appropriation that we are dealing with now, but have kind of a good laugh at them, mostly at my expense, however, I'm being played by Daniel Dae Kim, so that's pretty cool.

[Rosalind laughs] [Juju laughs] And there's- - You have very similar cheekbones.

- Yeah.

- We do.

- And abs.

- And we just released an... [winces] Not at all.

[all laughing] We just released an Audible version, which is available with Daniel and Ashley Park and Benedict Wong, Wendell Pierce, and Jason Biggs and cameos from everyone from Margaret Cho to Jane Krakowski.

- Do you know, it's fascinating because I happen to know Daniel a little bit and I was talking to him about "Joy Ride," which was last summer's raunchy Asian American female comedy.

They go for a joy ride.

And they were trying to cast some of the roles, and they cast Daniel Dae in one of them.

It was because he knows Adele Lim, the director.

And Adele said, "Hey, do you know any young, good Asian American, whatever, who could play this role?"

And he's the one who suggested Ashley Park.

- Oh.

- Yeah, for that role.

And I just think that it's this small community and it's a community of people who know and work with and respect and admire each other, and I think it's really wonderful.

But I was curious your thoughts, BD, on the idea of casting, whitewashing or not.

"Yellow face" or not.

- You mean like actual "Yellow Face?"

- Sure.

- Or across- - Or how do we think of that in modern terms?

- Okay, keep it short 'cause I have a lot to say.

- Okay, okay, good.

- Well, it's juicy.

- Ah.

- Jonathan Price is in "3 Body Problem."

- Yes.

- Yeah.

- So, there's a story there.

- But here's...

Yes, there is a story here.

But do you wanna say your thing first?

- Jonathan Price- - And then I'll- - Well, I mean, I'll say my thing first and I'll get outta the way.

- I'm sticking up for...

Okay.

- Say your piece.

- Hurry up.

- Well, I mean, it's as a young actor coming up and over the many, many years, it is a source of great frustration.

It is a source of great rage.

It is a potential source of great bitterness to just kind of watch over and over again other people getting opportunities.

And you have to really be strong about it and you have to kind of keep things in perspective.

You have to just understand that that's kind of a fact.

And at the same time, it's important to kind of work towards creating consciousness raising in order to people to understand what is it is exactly that we don't approve of in this situation.

And it has to do with opportunities being taken from us, I guess, as part of it.

And also the appropriation angle of it, which is quite a big deal.

And I'm gonna hand it over to you because- - Okay, yeah, because I'm already like- - [BD] Yeah.

- Worked up.

- Shut up, okay.

- [BD] Yeah.

- [chuckles] So going back to, so this is two part, going back to the Jonathan Price issue.

I have worked with him, we have spoken about it and- - Oh, really?

- Yes, and I think in your play you named me.

- Yes.

- You name checked me.

- Yes, and my husband.

- He's in "Yellow Face."

- Because- - Simon?

- He was in the premiere- - In the early version.

Because- - Sorry, I cut him.

- That's okay, I'll break the news to him.

But because I was a person who first saw the play of "Miss Saigon" at a dress rehearsal, 'cause my husband's English and so- - In London, yeah.

- In London.

And I called up David at an ungodly hour and said, 'Oh my God, you wouldn't believe what I just saw."

And that hence the whole "Miss Saigon."

But here's the thing.

I've spoken to him, to Jonathan, and honestly, that was a different era and there was not a lot of understanding then, he has explained to me 'cause at the RSC, everybody used to play every race.

So at the time, he didn't have full knowledge about the fine points as a lot of white people, let's be honest, don't really understand the fine points.

And so, he was kind of thrown under the bus.

He was known as the face of the ignorance.

Whereas in fact, he was just told, "Just shut up, go out there and do your job."

So, that's his point of view.

I'm sticking up for him.

He's a lovely man and really is traumatized by the fact that he feels- - Like the villain in the the- - The villain, but- - He was brave, yeah.

- Vilified.

- Okay, but can I have a story?

- Wait, but let me just go on.

- Okay, you go.

- [Juju] We're all dishing.

- I know, but on, that aside, yes, it's awful painting your face a different color, like Black face, yellow face, and for awhile yellow face was okay, but Black face wasn't.

And it still has been recently.

But now the problem is we've corrected it, but now I feel like we've gone too far.

There are so many Asian American actors who are only allowed to play their particular ethnicity.

So, let's say it's a Japanese actor and he's told you cannot play Chinese, you cannot play Korean.

And that's limiting them as actors.

Why can everybody in the TV show "The Bear" is not Italian.

- Right, right.

- They can do it.

- [Juju] They can all play Italian.

Yeah, yeah.

- Yeah, why can't we?

We're not painting our face.

We still look the same.

Why can't BD play a young Korean man?

- Well- - Older Korean.

[all laughing] - I'll tell you why.

- That's what we called comic timing.

That was very funny.

You had something to add, David.

- Yeah, so I just wanted to add that in the original "Miss Saigon" dispute, one of the things that the producer Cameron Mackintosh said, was they did a worldwide search to try to find an actor - Yes.

- to play the engineer.

And they couldn't find any Asian who was qualified and- - So insulting.

- Well, there's never been, yeah.

It's very insulting and it's never been retracted.

And I was sharing a car to the airport once with Nick Hytner, who is the director of "Miss Saigon."

And we were just, we were- - We're really dishing now.

[all laughing] I didn't name names.

- And Nick's a great guy.

And he was just very honest.

He said, "Oh, I was so embarrassed when that happened.

We never had a worldwide search.

We never looked.

It's just"- - Yeah.

- "Jonathan, we brought Jonathan to London because he was our friend," which actually is the way, I mean, just, it feels like such a true story.

That's how things happen.

So, I feel like there was never kind of a retraction of that statement.

- No.

- No, there wasn't.

- And he was never...also, he was thrown under the bus.

They made him the bad guy.

Well, they did.

- Oh, it's gonna happen again this fall.

- Well, so how much- - Oh.

- So, how much has changed in your view?

Everyone's talking about this giant renaissance or not even renaissance, but this blossoming of Asian Americans in the arts, whether it's "Parasite" to "Minari" to "Everything Everywhere All at Once," or this last theater season, I did a, "Here Lies Love," which is the Filipino story of Imelda Marcos.

And there was "KPOP," which if you blinked, you missed it.

And, but again, lots of Asian American performers, lots of Asian American choreographers, writers, directors, all of it.

And then there are the Asian American performers that I've interviewed in "Little Shop of Horrors."

- Right.

- Darren Criss, right?

Or the first Asian American to play "Dear Evan Hansen," right?

So, where do you see the progress and where do you think there's still needs to be progress in all of the things I just threw out?

Like- - I just think there's a differentiation though between, I'm just gonna start with that and then you'll...

I'm so bossy.

But between Asian American and that's my one issue is that, [laughs] obviously I have many issues, but that there is a blanket sometimes around, like, they'll bring actors who their first language isn't English, but they're still put under the Asian American label.

So, there is a difference.

We were born and raised here and so, there should be a little more fluidity for us as far as performers.

So, and then there's, we're all Asian, which is great, but there is a difference.

And I do notice that the one thing that is happening is everybody's placed under the Asian American label.

Not just by you, just now, but I see it everywhere and there's a slight difference.

- [Juju] Sure.

- Not to be snobbish or anything, but- - Not at all.

And so where, BD, do you see progress?

Where do you see more room to run?

- I think as painful and weird and traumatic for everyone that this whole protest over "Miss Saigon" was, it was the cracking open of a door to a discussion that had never ever been had before about that began with that and led to a discussion about representation, appropriation, diversity, inclusion.

These words were never even in our vocabulary in 1992.

They became part of our vocabulary and part of the "Miss Saigon" thing is in our community, the root of our ability to articulate the nuances of what we're talking about here.

So, I see a slow kind of incrementally encouraging opening of this door, which is one, I think the most positive thing about it is the influx of young talent and young writers and young people behind the camera.

And a much more of a fluidity and a much more of an ability for them and us to get work.

- I kind of already asked you this question BD, but I was in conversation with a young Korean American stage performer named Abraham Kim.

- Oh, I know him.

- Do you know Abraham?

- Yeah.

- It's a small world.

- He's lovely, yeah.

- He's adorable, and he was in "KPOP."

I can say that 'cause I'm a woman of a certain age and he was thinking, "Oh, I hear "Crazy Rich Asians" is coming to Broadway."

And he's already thinking, did you know that?

Did you know that?

And he's already thinking, "Do I wanna do that?

Do I not wanna do that?"

And how do you make those choices?

- Why not?

- Yeah.

- I think we have enough of information about "Crazy Rich Asians," the musical to know whether we want to do it or not do it.

- Right.

- I mean, as a thing, I don't think there's any reason not to do it.

But if it doesn't float my boat or if I don't feel like I can do what I do...

There's a lot of reasons, like I said before about the how you make those choices.

So, it's- - Right, and it's also about what stories do we tell about our community?

- Yeah.

- Is it "The Farewell," is it "Joy Ride," is it "Crazy Rich Asians," or is it "An American Soldier?"

- I mean, I feel like one of the things that has really changed, even just in the last three or four years, it is more of a proliferation of Asian stories and faces and narratives, particularly in film and television.

- Yes.

- And for a long time I thought, "Okay, if you're," well, when I was starting out, "If you're gonna do an Asian story in film or television, you had to figure out a way to put a white guy in the center of it."

- Right.

- And then that eventually when there started to be more some Asian American story, or Asian stories, it's this distinction that you're talking about, I thought, "Okay, if you're gonna have Asian Americans, they have to be kind of in an Asian setting."

- Yeah.

- Like "Crazy Rich Asians," right?

So it's kind of Asian American light, or even "The Farewell."

"The Farewell" is Asian Americans in China.

- Yeah.

- But then more recently you have shows like "Beef," which, yeah.

[audience member cheers] Which do you think [audience applauding] that I didn't think you could get away with.

- [Panelists] Yeah.

- And- - But also like we have actors and our community needs to embrace this more that there's a movie called "Greatest Hits."

There's an actor named Justin, but he's the romantic lead in, with a white woman as the lead.

We've got Maya Erskine playing, she's in "Mr. & Mrs.

Smith."

She's the female lead, the Angelina Jolie part.

So we do have, and it start... Everything she's done has been sort of non Asian specific, but then it creates an Asian storyline.

It gets more work for Asian Americans.

- Well, it's interesting you mentioned "Beef," and last week, because it's a AAPI month, I was in conversation with Steven Yeun.

- [Rosalind] Oh, nice.

- And I was asking him all these questions about like, how purposeful are you in blowing up all these stereotypes in "Beef," in others?

And he said the thing about when I was in "Walking Dead," I had the white girlfriend, and then it was like, I'm done.

We'll move to the next thing."

And recently he was offered something where it was like, "Well, you're not a hero, but suddenly you become the tough guy."

And he was like, "Wait, that's a stereotype.

Like, why am I not the tough guy?

And it's surprising to you that I become the..." So, it's all of these really thoughtful choices that artists make and writers make and people make about the choices.

And he said very specifically that he and Ali Wong as producing partners were unafraid to show warts and all, the humanity and all each and every one of us who make bad choices or say bad words or do the things that they did in "Beef."

- Yeah.

I mean, and they also addressed something really interesting that I hadn't seen.

That sort of...the anger.

- The rage.

- The simmering rage, - Yeah.

- that the whole things.

And you know what's interesting is I felt like a lot of people who didn't grow up Asian American didn't get that.

But we all had an instant familiarity with that.

- And yet, it was a big mainstream hit so I think people can understand.

It resonates.

- Well, I mean, I think there's this general principle that the specific is the universal.

And what we discover is that if you can be more specific about a culture and it feels authentic, people who are not from that culture, if it's a well-told story, they can relate to it.

They may not understand the particular kind of suppressed anger.

- Minutia, yeah.

- But they'll understand some sort of connection to rage because it's a universal human property.

- [Juju] Absolutely.

- That's the play that we're doing is kind of a variation on that, on what David is saying is that there's this crazy kind of universality and yet there is what he's taken out is the specific, the traditional kind of specificity that you get about what country someone came from and all the things they did when they got here.

Those things can actually be very shared - Yes.

- in the immigrant experience.

And so the playwright is really exploring that universality through a kind of generality actually.

- So, you have the first we're starting the production.

I wish we were finishing it, - Yes.

- but we're starting it.

And then [laughs]- - Tony Shalhoub and Shohreh Aghdashloo are going to kind of overlap with us and then take over.

So you could see both versions, you could see the Lebanese Persian version of this play and you can see the Asian American version of this play.

- It's quite universal.

- It is.

- And then he doesn't have to change a word.

- That's incredible.

- Yes.

- I really, I'm excited to see it now.

We have so many tickets to buy and books to buy and things to stream and Audibles.

- Thank goodness, right?

- Exactly.

- Yeah, that's a good sign.

- That is the flourishing of Asian American art.

So, we're down to our last couple of minutes.

So, closing thoughts as you look on the horizon for Asian Americans in the world of arts, all encompassing.

- Spend your money on Asian content.

- Yeah, I mean- [audience applauding] [audience cheering] - Like, really.

That's how it works, right?

It's how it works and we see all of these opportunities that other people seem to have and how do they get them and you go to like "The Wiz" on Broadway and you see just a sea of African American faces- - Also- - And we really want that for us.

- Yes.

And also let's not tear each other down because I do think there's a perfectionism sometimes in Asian Americans as that we want everything that we do to be straight A's.

But I think if we have a little kindness towards our own, I think that's really beneficial too.

I do feel our community needs to really embrace everything we do.

- I think those of us who are older and have been doing this for awhile remember a time when, okay, if you were an Asian artist and creator and you got some visibility, you were somehow expected to represent the entire community.

- Right, exactly.

- That's true.

- And of course nobody can do that.

And one of the things that's wonderful about this period is that we should be able to have a range of stories and that you can debate them and you can decide this one I can relate to, this one maybe not so much.

The same way you would debate any movie and appreciate the multiplicity of points of view and experiences that are part of our community.

- And quality, too.

- Yes.

- I mean, we should be able to fail.

- Absolutely.

- And not like feel like we're taking the whole community down with us.

- Exactly, exactly.

- Absolutely.

- Thank you so much for your enthusiasm - Thanks for having us.

- and your body of work and all of it.

Thank you guys so much.

[audience cheering] [audience applauding] [light reflective music] [music continues] [singer vocalizing] [music continues]