[Host] Born and educated in Savannah, Georgia, Wanda Lloyd was born to change the face of print journalism.

Her memoir, Coming Full Circle from Jim Crow to Journalism follows her life and experience as a journalistic editor and her journey back to Savannah.

I'm Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established Southern authors, as we sit By The River .

♪ (theme music) ♪ ♪ [Announcer] By the River is brought to you in part by The ETV Endowment of South Carolina Community Foundation of the Lowcountry Strengthening Community Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USCB.

The Pat Conroy Literary Center >> It's another beautiful day here at our Lowcountry studio in Beaufort, South Carolina.

Thank you for joining us for season three of By The River .

We love having you on board with us.

We are here today with Wanda Lloyd.

She is a retired newspaper editor, former Associate Professor and Department Chair at Savannah State University, and a winner of several awards.

Hopefully, we'll get some time to speak about all of those, because I know they are very meaningful.

Wanda, thank you so much for coming here.

It's really a pleasure to have you and I'm excited about this conversation.

Let's get right to it and talk about why you felt the need, the urge to write this book.

[Wanda] As I was - Thank you very much for having me by the way.

As I was coming toward the end of my newspaper career, not even realizing that I would become a professor and work at Savannah State University Chairing that department, I started thinking about how far I had come and I was thinking about where I we go next.

I really started thinking about the fact that I could write a book.

Several people in my life had urged me to write a book.

And then as the opportunity came to return to Savannah, the city where I grew up, and working with students at Savannah State, they started asking me, they knew I hadn't been in the Academy all that long.

They started asking me about my career.

They had heard that I was a newspaper person, that I had been a practitioner of journalism and they wanted to know stories about it.

I started telling them about it and they said, "Well, you grew up in Savannah, what was it like?"

I told them that it really was very oppressive at the time I grew up.

I realized then, a lot of young people, millennials, really didn't understand the term Jim Crow.

They didn't really know about the legal time, the restricted time when we were told where we could go to school, how we would shop, where we could - the neighborhoods we could live in, the kinds of entertainment that we could or could not take part in and I started thinking about the gap there for them.

It seems like they had learned Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement and then Jim Crow just didn't enter into their minds.

So that really inspired me to tell some of my stories because they really were asking me a lot about my stories.

[Holly] Why do you think it's so important for those students in that age group to have a grasp on the time period?

[Wanda] I think it's important for all of us to understand where we came from and many of them came from Jim Crow.

Their grandparents were in Jim Crow in some cases.

Parents had heard some of those stories, but they really had not passed those stories on.

And I think whatever your culture is, you have to know where you come from in order to appreciate what you have now and to move forward.

So that's why I think it was important for me to tell those stories.

[Holly] Let's back up and talk about some of those challenges that you write about in this book starting from early on as a child and working your way up the ladder in your career.

[Wanda] Well, the challenge for me was that we went to segregated schools.

And so as I said in the preface to the book, we had books that were used by White students.

Sometimes the pages were torn out.

We would be assigned a certain section in the book and trying to do our homework, we would get to a page: The teacher said, "Read page 27" and if page 27 was missing, I would have to call a friend and say, "In your textbook, do you have a page 27?"

and we would do our homework over the phone, because they would read a page to me.

Someone else would call me, I would read a page to them.

So, there's that gap there.

We had teachers who were extremely well educated, but they could not get their graduate education in the State of Georgia because they could not go to the University of Georgia to get their graduate degrees.

And so the state legally was bound to educate them.

But they sent them to schools in the North.

As I was preparing the book and writing my stories, I look back in my yearbook and they have gone to Columbia University and University of Pennsylvania, NYU New York University.

They got sent to the state and 100% expenses paid.

They paid their tuition, their housing, their books, their fees, their food.

Everything was paid for so that they could not go to school in Georgia.

And so that was very common in Jim Crow - not just in Georgia.

I lived in Alabama for a time when I was working in my career.

And the same thing happened in Alabama and so this was very common.

And so also the library, the public library was segregated.

We had to go to a segregated library where they didn't have a lot of books.

And we would go to the library, two buses to get there from my neighborhood.

Go to the library, ask for the books that our teachers wanted us to read.

Then we had to go back the week later and pick them him up because they would order them from the White library.

So, there were things like that, that were restrictive, but we persevered anyway.

[Holly] Well, I was reading some about your earlier days in the newsroom and how you stood up about - for instance, mug shots of Black men and how, where they would be put.

Above the fold or on the front page, that sort of thing.

Tell me about how difficult that was to stand up and make those arguments in the newsroom.

Because you were a female, you're an African American and it was common for those pictures - that was what was selling the newspapers.

[Wanda] Absolutely, and actually, because I'm a female and because I'm African American I think it made me more driven to see that change.

I thought, I was hearing from the community in two of those cities where I worked as a top editor, I was Managing Editor in Greenville, South Carolina and I was Executive Editor in Montgomery and I would hear from people in the community say that having the pictures of the mug shots of young Black men on the front page above the fold most of the time, was a stereotype and that because of that, there were a lot of White people in the community, especially White women, who were afraid of all Black men, because they say they saw all Black men as bad people.

Even though White men get arrested all the time, but the Black men's pictures were on the front.

So, we were at that point where young White women would clutch their pearls if they saw a Black man.

They would grab their purse and hold it closer if they were passing them on the street.

If a Black man got on an elevator, even if a Black man was in the suit and had a briefcase, he might have been a lawyer in the courthouse, but White women were afraid.

So, I made the decision after having a consultation and bringing in the police chief in both cities to talk to our editors, that we would change that policy and that we would no longer run the pictures of any suspects in a crime on the front page.

No more mug shots.

[Holly] A bold move on your part.

How was that received?

[Wanda] It was received okay, but there were a couple of hold outs who, you always have in an organization, people who say, "Well, we do this because we've always done it that way."

And so, I think that was the hardest thing for me, not just with the mug shots sometimes, but to change the way we always did things, anyway.

And so, there were a couple of testy times at night when they would fax the front page to me, because I had to approve it every night about 11 - 11:30pm before deadline.

And I saw the picture there and I would just say, "You've gotta move it."

"Don't!

Move the picture off the front page."

"Don't have it out there."

So they had to rework everything at the last minute.

But, after that, they realized that was a little more work for them on deadline, it became easier.

[Holly] They realized you weren't budging on this.

[Wanda] Exactly.

[Holly] Very good.

And I've also read about how you have been involved as a mentor to some younger students and that sort of thing.

Why is that so important to you to be involved in that mentorship opportunity experience?

[Wanda] Ironically, as I was parking to come here and talk to you today, I checked my email really quickly and someone from my past in Greenville had just sent me an email and said, "I've got someone in my newsroom who really needs a mentor.

Can you help?"

So, I think it's important for two reasons.

One is because when I was young, I did not have mentors.

There were no women in Savannah, Georgia in journalism, in daily newspaper or on television.

There were no people of color in daily journalism or on television.

Of course we always had the Black Press, but that was a little bit different.

And so I didn't have a mentor and I realized the gap that I had in my life.

That's the first thing.

And then second, as I went through my career and I was about halfway through, I realized that there were a lot of people that wanted to move up in the industry.

They wanted to become leaders.

They saw me as a leader and many of them asked me to mentor them.

Then I started telling all young journalists, all young journalists, not just African Americans that you really need a mentor to help you get to that next level.

So, I mentor, especially women, but all races.

I think it's just very important.

>> Well, you know, you talked about the challenges you had as a young child with the books and pages missing, that sort of thing.

And we've gone up through the news room and it's clear that once you were at that point I would think in Greenville, people realize, we're not gonna mess with her.

She's going to stand her ground.

But even up to publishing the book, was there any...do you still go through these experiences of setbacks or do you feel it's getting easier as people know who you are, and know your reputation and how you operate?

[Wanda] Well, I think it's getting easier for me, partly because I'm retired and I'm not working every day.

I would not say that I don't - I'm not discriminated against.

I am discriminated against in some ways in my neighborhood when people don't know me.

Just casually, walking my dog, people have asked me - which is an upscale, mostly White neighborhood in Savannah, "Where do you... Whose house do you work in?

Do you work for doctor so and so?"

It still happens all the time but I'm not worried about me because I'm not depending on anything that anybody says to me to make a living, but I do worry about some younger people who are going through the same thing.

This is still happening in journalism.

It's happening in everyday life, that we are still struggling just look at what happened, you know, fairly recently with the Black Lives Matter, Anti-Racism movement after the death of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery.

So, we're still going through some things, but I have hope.

I have hope that because of the people who are out there protesting, because it's young people, because it's a very multi cultural group of people who are demanding that we make some changes, I have hope that things will change.

[Holly] That brings me right to the next question.

Do you feel - I mean, this is just so timely.

Do you feel like it was just meant to be that this book came out when it did?

[Wanda] Yes, I never imagined that the conversations would shift to what's going on in the greater world, but it has.

And I started my book tour as a real book tour, traveling around.

I went to four states before things shut down for COVID and then I started doing virtual presentations.

And I started- I was calling people saying, "Can I can I do a presentation here or there?"

Now, I no longer call anybody.

People are calling me because they really want to have these conversations.

I really feel good about that.

[Holly] How do you like that experience, by the way, of being, you know, in front of the camera and being in people's homes, but not really, and that sort of thing?

[Wanda] I'm fine with it because I'm at the age now where I really don't want to get on planes, sleep in strange beds every night in a hotel.

I really am fine with it, and quite frankly, it makes it easier, because on Sunday, for instance, I presented at a church, happened to be in Savannah and then I presented in the afternoon for a book club in the Washington DC area.

I never could have done that, pre-COVID, not that I wish COVID on us, but, you know, because I'm able to do two or three different things.

I've done up to four presentations in one day.

That's a bit much.

[Holly] Wow!

That seems a little exhausting.

[Wanda] Yeah, it is exhausting.

[Holly] Good for you.

That's great.

Do you find that the people's tone is changed at all whenever they're in the comfort of their home and maybe not in the actual presence of you as maybe the kinds of questions they might be willing to ask you?

[Wanda] No, I still get tough questions, you know.

That chat room is busy.

Last week, I presented at the National Association of Black Journalists, mostly all Black people at, you know, at that presentation.

The next day, I presented with the Journalism Educators Association, which had their virtual conference.

Two different audiences, but really tough questions from both groups.

But I actually think that people are being thoughtful even if they're in their homes.

So, that's working out fine.

[Holly] As far as your involvement with the NABJ, how, what kinds of shift in conversations and concerns among Black journalists are there from whenever you began and now?

[Wanda] You know, the very first day of the conference last week, it went on for about four days.

I remember tweeting, "Yeah we've been having these conversations for 40 years and they're the same."

People are still concerned about not being able to move up, not having mentors, not being promoted, not being taken seriously, not having their story ideas taken seriously.

We really are going through some of the same things.

So we're still mentoring young people and even though I'm not working in the business, I'm constantly having conversations with young people about what they can do to make themselves stand out, about how you got to be better.

My grandmother told me, you got to be better, look better, smell better, jump higher, you just got to work harder to make yourself known, because as African Americans, we've always had to sort of stand out and we felt be more prepared than other people.

And so I try to share that message with them, but things have not gotten perfect.

Things are improving, but I just look at the number of people when I was Executive Editor in Montgomery, there were four African American women who were Executive Editor across the country.

When I left the newsroom, there were three.

Now there may be four or five.

You know, I've been gone from the newsroom since 2013 and we still haven't gone very far.

[Holly] Let's shift to the actual hard copy of the book.

Very special, back here: This picture.

Let's talk about why you chose the pictures on the book.

[Wanda] Sure.

Well, the cover of the book is 22 year old me in the news room in Providence, Rhode Island.

My first newspaper was the Providence Evening Bulletin.

And I was looking as I was writing the book, I was going through all those, the books I have.

And there was this big newspaper size bound set of newspapers that I edited when I was 22 years, 23 years old at Columbia University.

I took a leave of absence and edited this newspaper and in there I found this picture stuck inside that book.

And when I took it out, I almost cried.

I had not seen that picture in 30 years.

I didn't know it was still there.

And as soon as I was maybe halfway through writing the book, as soon as I pulled it out, I sent it to my publisher and said, 'This is the cover of the book.'

[Holly] Definitely.

[Wanda] And, of course, they agreed.

So I'm really happy with that.

It shows me at that age.

There's a typewriter there on the side.

There's the pneumatic tubes in the news room that we used to use to send the copy around the building.

So that's the cover of the book.

[Holly] And also the fact that the White guy in the background is sitting on top of the desk.

[Wanda] Yeah.

Yeah.

(giggles) [Holly] How about the typewriter on the back.

Let's go there.

[Wanda] Sure.

So as, when the publisher sent me the first draft of the cover and then the jacket of the book, there was a typewriter that was an old typewriter but not old enough for me to feel like that was a typewriter that I learned to type on.

And I tried to explain to them, that you got to find another typewriter.

They didn't quite know what I was talking about.

They couldn't find the picture.

They said, "Well, where would we find that?"

I said, 'Well, I have one in my living room on a shelf.

They said, "Can you take a picture?"

So I did, and that's the typewriter that I learned to type on at home when I was 15 years old.

[Holly] So special, and looking at it, it's so hard to imagine typing on that.

[Wanda] It's hard for me to imagine.

I typed on it every day.

Yeah, Yeah.

[Holly] We talked about mentors.

Let's go back to your mentors and especially in high school and that one, Law.

Is that the one you said?

[Wanda] Yes.

Mrs. Law Ella P. Law was my high school journalism teacher.

So when I was going into the eleventh grade, I was looking for a class to fill out what, you know, what kind of a college prep collection of classes.

So, you know, I had the science classes and the math class and the harder classes.

And I thought, I need something kind of easy because I loved to read.

I loved to write, and I thought, this will be an easy class.

I knew nothing about journalism.

[Holly] Right.

[Wanda] Except reading the paper every day at home.

And so I took the class in the eleventh grade.

At the end of eleventh grade, Mrs. Law called me aside and said, "I would like to appoint you Editor in Chief of the Beach Beacon at the Beach High School in Savannah for the twelfth grade."

She said, "I noticed that not only are you a good writer, but you seem to be a good leader.

A lot of the students come to you with their story ideas.

They come to you to ask, 'Who should I interview for the stories?'

even right there in the school.

I think you'd be a good editor."

So that's really where I decided at the end of eleventh grade that I would become a journalist.

>> Isn't it amazing how just that conversation stuck with you and I'm sure gave you the confidence to take the next step.

[Wanda] Yeah.

[Holly] I love that.

Well, I promised that I wouldn't talk all about this, so we'll save it for the end.

The fact that the actual hard cut - copy newspaper is dying, how do you feel about this?

Do you get the same experience of logging on and reading it online?

[Wanda] I'm enjoying reading it online.

[Holly] Are you?

[Wanda] I really am.

Some of it has to do with the fact that I have to have readers, I mean, more anyway.

Let me just say this: I've been in this business long enough to have gone through the evolution of several technological evolutions.

Obviously, we had manual typewriters and we went to IBM's electric typewriters.

And we did the - we got rid of the hot type and went to cold type, then we had what we call dumb terminals.

I write about that in the book.

We had these terminals that really weren't PC's yet.

They didn't have any data in them.

There was this big room somewhere in the bowels of the building that held all the data, and then we went to PCs.

So, I've been through lots of changes, and then, of course, the websites, even in Montgomery, I was there nine years as Executive Editor, we redesigned our website three or four times even in Montgomery in that short period of time.

So technology comes easily for me.

So, I may be a little bit different from some of my peers in terms of age.

But I really do enjoy reading online.

And I get a lot more read, because I'm not gonna subscribe to The New York Times and The Washington Post and five or six other newspapers that I can read every day at home.

I'm just - that's not gonna happen.

I'm not even sure they deliver in Savannah.

[Holly] Okay, well we have just a little bit more time.

I don't know if you can get your hands on that last passage.

I'd love to leave our viewers with this final passage from you.

[Wanda] I'd be happy to.

[Holly] Coming Full Circle.

By Wanda Small Lloyd.

[Wanda] Sure.

Get the right one.

So this is near the end of the book, and it's very short.

It talks about - I've written in the book about a seat at the table and how important it is to have a seat at the table.

This is a leadership lesson.

And it's mostly for young women.

You have to have a seat at the table.

Its power.

It helps you understand.

And it helps you have power in your career as well as what's going on in the organization.

So, I talk about this: I do this not only for my generation and my industry but for the generations to come.

I do this for those who take seriously the five freedoms guaranteed in the First Amendment.

And I do this for young women who are rising through the ranks in corporations, law firms, governments, universities, anywhere there are opportunities for professional growth.

I try to inspire women and young people who are starting their own businesses, because self employment is self determination.

I try to make all this possible for young women, like my daughter Shelby, whom I have brought along on my journey.

I want Shelby, as a buyer for some of the nation's largest retail companies, and her peers to know that when they understand how to optimize life's best opportunities, they can demand a seat at the table, so that their influence is appreciated and impactful.

They must understand that when they get a seat at the table, they are obligated to mentor, to pull up a chair and invite another hard working and deserving woman or person of color to take her or his own seat at the table.

[Holly] I love it.

It has really been a pleasure talking to you.

So interesting, and thank you so much for making the drive from Savannah to Beaufort here to talk with us.

[Wanda] Great.

[Holly] And everyone, we want to say thanks to you for joining us for By The River .

It's been a pleasure having you on board with us.

We're gonna leave you now with our Lowcountry Poet's Corner, featuring artwork from local artists.

I'm Holly Jackson, and you're watching, By The River .

♪ (upbeat music) ♪ [Poetry Reading] I got here through no talent of my own.

I did not birth myself, or even will myself into being.

One day, I was a cluster of cells.

One day, I was a heart.

One day, I was a human in the world.

Now what?

Look at the luck I was given.

Born into a place with a hot, yellow sun.

Born with two nimble hands, a strong enough voice.

If I'm not shouting down cruelty, or at least singing all the time, what am I doing?

If I'm not building a table, or holding a child, or slicing tomatoes warm from the garden I've weeded myself, what am I doing?

I bought these electric blue flats - suede.

I did it, because it made me feel a little happy.

That small dopamine hit that comes from picturing yourself looking like someone someone wants to look at.

But how absurd is that?

How flimsy?

I've never learned to change a tire.

My music theory is abyssmal.

Sometimes I don't realize it's snowing until there's already a dusting on the driveway, which is certainly close to excuseless.

But I swear, I'm mainly paying attention.

I swear, I'm grateful at least a dozen times a day.

If I could cradle the Earth in my hands for 10 seconds, I would, just to show it how tenderly I could hold it, how I wouldn't drop it, how I'd cherish it, even as I'm turning in early instead of going out to see the Perseids.

I've always loved a carnival.

Is it enough to love a carnival?

I could ride the tea cups all day.

That shriek that comes from spinning, the one that unfurls from somewhere deep below the throat, like a bright streamer, it's language.

It translates into "thank you."

[Wanda reading aloud] I stepped into adulthood crossing the bridge between full segregation and the Civil Rights Movement.

As a child, I attended some of the movements, mass meetings at churches in Savannah.

Later, as a student at Spelman College, I saw and heard Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. speak at a standing room only and spiritually rousing evening service at Mount Moriah Baptist Church.

The Civil Rights Movement left me appreciative of the right to worship God without fear of reprisal and to vote without fear of sanction and grateful for the five freedoms in the 1st Amendment.

I have enjoyed the benefits of freedom of the press and I have celebrated that I could go to any school or work in any place I was qualified to be.

♪ [Announcer] By The River is brought to you in part by The ETV Endowment of South Carolina Community Foundation of the Lowcountry, Strengthening community, Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USCB, The Pat Conroy Literary Center.