>> IT IS NOT BEING MANAGED WELL BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

THE FORMER -- STACKS OF POLICIES ARE HOLDING OFFICIALS BACK.

IN HER NEW BOOK, RECODING AMERICA, JENNIFER POLKA SHARES THE STRUGGLE AND HOW IT IS HURTING THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

SHE JOINS -- TO OFFER POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS.

>> WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU'VE GOT THIS GREAT BOOK, RECODING AMERICA.

I WANT TO WALK THROUGH HOW YOU GOT THERE.

I REMEMBER YOU STARTED CODE FOR AMERICA.

THAT TOOK YOU DOWN THIS PATH.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT?

>> I WAS WORKING IN THE TECH MEDIA WORLD.

IT WAS AROUND 2008, 2009.

WE WERE GETTING THIS NEW PRESIDENT ELECTED BASED ON HIS ABILITY TO USE THE INTERNET.

>> PRESIDENT OBAMA THERE?

>> YES, I'M TALKING ABOUT PRESIDENT OBAMA.

I WAS WORKING ON AN EVENT THAT WAS ABOUT THIS NEW KIND OF WEB, THE WEB THAT EVERYONE GOT TO BE INVOLVED WITH.

THINGS MOVED QUICKLY WITH LIGHTWEIGHT APPLICATIONS, THEY WERE EASY FOR PEOPLE TO USE.

I STARTED SAYING, HEY, THIS CAN HELP THIS GUY GET ELECTED.

CAN IT HELP THEM GOVERN BETTER?

THAT IS HOW WE GOT INVOLVED WITH THIS WHOLE IDEA, IT IS WHAT INSPIRED ME TO START CODE FOR AMERICA, GETTING PEOPLE FROM THE TECH INDUSTRY INTO GOVERNMENT AND HELPING IT WORK THAT WAY.

IT WOULD JUST BE EASY TO USE.

>> THIS IS SORT OF AS A YEAR OR SO INTO SERVICE, HE WORKED FOR A COMMUNITY, OR A CITY.

THEN YOU WENT ON TO THE TECHNOLOGY OFFICE, AND THEN YOU CREATED THE U.S. DIGITAL SERVICE.

THAT WAS A LOT MORE THAN JUST A VOLUNTEER.

>> YEAH.

I THINK MY JOURNEY INTO GOVERNMENT, IT HAS BEEN ONE OF LEARNING QUITE A BIT.

I LOVE WHAT WE DID.

I BELIEVE THE ORIGINAL IDEAS AS CODE FOR AMERICA DIDN'T QUITE ACCOUNT.

I THINK THIS IS IN A PLACE TO HELP THE TECH INDUSTRY QUITE A BIT.

PART OF THAT LEARNING WAS WHEN THEY RECRUITED ME TO COME TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

I HAD NOT SEEN WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE UK WHEN THEY CREATED SOMETHING CALLED THE GOVERNMENT DIGITAL SERVICE.

YES, IT WAS MUCH MORE THAN A ONE YEAR SERVICE PROGRAM.

GREAT TECHNOLOGISTS, DESIGNERS, THEY ARE WORKING AT THE CENTER OF GOVERNMENT, REALLY CHANGING HOW THE UK OPERATED, AND HOW THE GOVERNMENT COMMUNICATES WITH ITS CITIZENS.

THAT WAS THE INSPIRATION FOR THE U.S. DIGITAL SERVICE, AND ALSO OUT OF THAT, WE GOT ANOTHER WONDERFUL GROUP.

BOTH OF THOSE GROUPS, AND OUR GROUPS AND AGENCIES AROUND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN ALSO MANY STATES HAVE THESE GROUPS THAT DO DIGITAL SERVICE WORK, WHICH IS JUST A LITTLE BIT DISTINCT FROM THE LEGACY WAY THE GOVERNMENT HAS DONE I.T.

OPERATIONS.

>> YOU AND I WERE BOTH ON THE DEFENSE INNOVATION BOARD AS THE CHAIR OF THE FORMER CEO OF GOOGLE.

I THINK THEY WERE ALL KIND OF SHOCKED, AND THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT ITSELF WHERE YOU THINK IT WOULD BE THE BEST.

TELL ME WHAT YOU LEARNED THERE.

>> THE DYNAMICS OF THESE VERY LONG PROCESSES THAT FOCUS ON GATHERING, OFTENTIMES THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF REQUIREMENTS.

THEY RESULT IN SOFTWARE FOR PEOPLE WHO WORK IN GOVERNMENT -- THAT REALLY DOESN'T WORK WELL.

IT IS SO OVERSOLD.

THOSE DYNAMICS WERE PRESENT EXACTLY THE SAME IN THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT AS THEY WERE IN THE USDA, STATES, OR CITIES.

IT WAS REALLY A GREAT LEARNING EXPERIENCE TO SEE HOW THESE DYNAMICS COME ABOUT IN PLACES THAT LOOK VERY DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER.

YET, SO MANY DIFFERENT PARTS OF GOVERNMENT ARE SUFFERING FROM THIS DYNAMIC AS I CALL IT IN THE BOOK, BUILDING CONCRETE VOTES.

>> IN YOUR BOOK, THAT IS GREAT.

IF SOMEONE HAS A REQUEST, AND THEY SAY, WE ARE NEVER GOING TO QUESTION REQUIREMENTS, SO THEY TELL US TO BUILD A CONCRETE BOAT.

WE WILL BUILD A CONCRETE BOAT.

LET'S START THERE, REQUIREMENT.

THAT SEEMS TO BE AT THE HEART OF THE PROBLEM OF IMPLEMENTATION.

SO MANY PEOPLE PALLER -- PILE REQUIREMENTS ON.

>> I'M SORRY, I WORKED TWO SUMMERS AGO.

IN COVID ON THE UNEMPLOYMENT CRISIS HERE IN CALIFORNIA.

WHEN WE CAME IN, THEY WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF DOING A PEER CARE MEANT.

THEY WERE ABOUT TO BID IT OUT WHEN THE PANDEMIC IT.

THAT SORT OF TOOK THEM OFF COURSE.

THAT REQUEST FOR PROPOSAL HAD I BELIEVE 6700 GARMENTS -- REQUIREMENTS IN IT.

THEY ARE REALLY TRYING TO RE- CREATE THE COMPLEXITY THAT THEY HAVE.

BUT ON THE TECHNOLOGY.

>> WAIT, WAIT.

6000 REQUIREMENTS?

WHO PUTS THESE IN?

WHAT ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT?

>> I THINK THE WAY TO EXPLAIN WHY THERE IS 6700 REQUIREMENTS, IT MAY NOT BE THE EXACT NUMBER, BUT IT IS IN THAT BALLPARK.

TO UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF THE SYSTEMS THEY ARE TRYING TO BUILD.

I DON'T JUST MEAN THE TECHNOLOGY SYSTEMS, THE LEGACY OF POLICY, PROCESS, AND PROCEDURE.

IT HAS ACCUMULATED OVER MANY, MANY YEARS.

IN UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THAT PROGRAM WAS CREATED ON THE 1935 SOCIAL SECURITY ACT.

IT'S BEEN QUITE A FEW YEARS SINCE THEN.

THAT IS ALMOST NINE DECADES OF PEOPLE AT THE FEDERAL AND STATE LEVEL FROM THE EXECUTIVE, JUDICIAL, AND LEGISLATIVE BRANCHES THROWING DOWN NEW POLICY REQUIREMENTS, HAVING THEM LAND IN THIS WAY ON A PROGRAM.

THEN THEY START TO REALLY BUCKLE UNDER THE WEIGHT OF NEW CHANGES WITHOUT EVER GOING BACK AND RATIONALIZING IT, OR SYMBOLIZING THAT.

THE WAY THAT REALLY HIT HOME FOR ME, WHEN I WAS WORKING AT THE DEPARTMENT IN CALIFORNIA.

THAT WAS IN AUGUST OF 2020 WHEN THEY HAD THIS BACKLOG OF WHAT TURNED OUT TO BE 1.2 MILLION CLAIMS THAT HADN'T BEEN PAID SINCE MARCH AND APRIL.

A COLLEAGUE OF MINE WAS WORKING WITH A CLAIMS PROCESSOR TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHERE WERE OUR LEVERAGE POINTS, WHY WERE WE DOING IT THIS WAY?

WHAT COULD WE CHANGE?

ONE OF THE GUYS SHE WAS TALKING TO KEPT SAYING, I'M NOT QUITE SURE ABOUT THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION.

I'M THE NEW GUY.

I'M THE NEW GUY.

EVENTUALLY SHE SAID, HOW LONG HAVE YOU WORKED THERE?

HE SAID, I'VE ONLY WORKED HERE 17 YEARS.

THE PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW THIS PROCESS, PROCESSING THESE CLAIMS, THEY HAVE WORKED THERE FOR 25 YEARS OR MORE.

CERTAINLY, THE TECHNOLOGY GETS VERY COMPLEX.

YOU GET THESE WILD NUMBER OF REQUIREMENTS.

IT IS IN PART BECAUSE WE ARE NOT DOING THE HARD WORK OF MAKING CHOICES ABOUT WHAT TO ACTUALLY PRIORITIZE.

IT IS ALSO BECAUSE WE ARE DEALING WITH 90 YEARS OF POLICY CLUTTER THAT NOBODY HAS BOTHERED TO SIMPLIFY.

I DON'T THINK WE WILL GET AN UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE SYSTEM THAT WILL SCALE TO MEET THE NEED IN THE NEXT DOWNTURN UNLESS WE LOOK AT THE POLICY AND PROCESS, NOT JUST BLAMING ALL THESE TECHNOLOGY FAILURES.

THIS IS ALL BUCKLING UNDER THE WEIGHT OF CLUTTER.

>> THE FOOD ASSISTANCE PROGRAM IN CALIFORNIA THAT YOU TRIED TO HELP UNTANGLE.

>> WHEN WE FIRST STARTED WALKING, THIS WAS AT CODE FOR AMERICA IN 2013 ON FOOD ASSISTANCE.

ONE OF THE FORMS THAT WAS USED, I THINK IT WAS 28 OF THE CALIFORNIA COUNTIES.

THEY HAD 212 QUESTIONS ON IT.

IT DIDN'T WORK ON A MOBILE PHONE.

MOST LOW INCOME PEOPLE ACCESS THE INTERNET THROUGH A MOBILE PHONE.

THEY WOULD HAVE TO FIND A COMPUTER AT THE LIBRARY TO USE IT.

THE REASON WHY SO MANY PEOPLE WHO WERE ELIGIBLE IN CALIFORNIA WEREN'T GETTING IT.

THEY COULDN'T GET THROUGH THIS FORM.

EVEN AT THE LIBRARY.

IT WOULD TAKE TOO LONG.

THE LIBRARY COMPUTER WHAT TIME- OUT AFTER HALF AN HOUR.

AND BECAUSE OF ALL THE PROCESSES AND PROCEDURES THEY HAD TO JUMP THROUGH AFTER THEY FILLED OUT THAT FORM.

WORKING WITH THOSE COUNTIES TO FIND A BETTER WAY TO DO THIS WITH FEWER QUESTIONS THAT WORKED ON A MOBILE PHONE.

ALL THE COUNTIES GOT TO VOTE ON WHAT FEATURES ALL DAY.

THAT IS WHEN YOU GET CLASSIC COUNTRY -- WITH 212 COUNTRIES.

>> I AM WRITING A BOOK ON ELON MUSK.

HIS RULE NUMBER ONE, QUESTION EVERY REQUIREMENT, NO MATTER WHO GAVE IT TO YOU.

THE GOVERNMENT, MILITARY, WHATEVER.

HE'S BECOME OBSESSED WITH THAT.

UNLIKE WHERE THEY TRY TO DO THE SAME TYPE.

THEY ARE FOLLOWING EVERY REQUIREMENT.

IN OTHER WORDS, IGNORING REQUIREMENTS, AS WELL AS FOLLOWING THEM TO BUILD A CONCRETE BOAT, AS YOU SAY.

HOW DO YOU BALANCE THAT?

AND THE ONES WHO CAN CHANGE THE REQUIREMENT AND MAKE IT WORK BETTER?

>> YEAH, I THINK THE IDEA NEEDS TO CONNECT TO WHAT WAS THE INTENT OF THE LAW?

WHAT ARE WE ACTUALLY TRYING TO ACHIEVE HERE?

DOES THIS REQUIREMENT GET US TO THAT GOAL?

I THINK PEOPLE ON THE GROUND HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF WHETHER THAT WILL BE THE THING THAT GETS US THERE, OR SOMETHING ELSE IS.

REALLY SAYING, OKAY, DO WE UNDERSTAND HOW THE USER IS GOING TO USE THIS?

BEING ABLE TO BRING IN THE VOICE OF THE PERSON, WHETHER IT IS A CLAIMS PROCESSOR INSIDE A GOVERNMENT AGENCY, OR THE PERSON MAKING THE CLAIM?

THE PERSON UNEMPLOYED?

THOSE VOICES ARE VERY RARELY REPRESENTED WHEN THOSE 6700 REQUIREMENTS WERE BEING PUT TOGETHER.

I GIVE AN EXAMPLE NOT FROM UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE, BUT FROM MEDICARE.

REALLY AMAZING PUBLIC SERVANT NEARED -- SANCHEZ WHO WAS AROUND FOR HEALTHCARE.GOV.

SHE GOT THROWN A BUNCH OF DIFFICULT WORK THAT HELP THEM GO FROM FAILING TO SUCCEEDING.

IN THAT, LEARNED ABOUT USER NEEDS, USER RESEARCH, MORE AGILE THE VIOLENT -- DEVELOPMENT.

RELYING ON THESE REQUIREMENTS.

YOU SEE HER SORT OF EVOLVED IN HER LEADERSHIP TO THE POINT WHERE SHE IS LOOKING AT THE REQUIREMENTS AND SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT, THAT IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO FULFILL THE INTENT OF THIS PROGRAM.

FOR EXAMPLE, SHE IS ASKED TO DO THESE DATA EXTRACTS TO GIVE TO THE ECOSYSTEM.

THIS PART OF WHAT MEDICARE DOES.

PROVIDING A LOT OF DATA SO THEY CAN EVALUATE INCOMES.

THERE ARE DATA EXTRACTS WITH ALL OF THE POLICIES, IT WILL TAKE US NINE MONTHS.

ALL THIS PACKAGING TO DO, ALL THE TESTING.

THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO USE THAT DATA TO MAKE HEALTHCARE BETTER.

THERE IS A WAY TO DO THAT TECHNICALLY, THE PROGRAMMING INTERFACE, AND API.

PLUGGING INTO THAT DATA IN REAL- TIME IN A SAFE WAY.

SHE SAYS, LET'S DO THAT INSTEAD.

THEY HAVE BETTER ACCESS, IT COSTS LESS IN THE LONG RUN.

THEY GET IT MUCH FASTER.

SHE IS LITERALLY LOOKING AT A LAW THAT SAYS TO HER VERY SPECIFICALLY, DO TO DATA EXTRACTS, SHE IS DOING SOMETHING A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

>> THIS IS THE KIND OF BOLDNESS THAT CAN GET YOU IN TROUBLE.

IF SOMEONE MESSES UP YOUR PRODUCT IN GOVERNMENT, THEY DON'T GET IN THAT MUCH TROUBLE.

IF THEY VIOLATE A STEP IN THE PROCEDURE, THEY CAN GET INDICTED OR SOMETHING.

>> IN THAT BOOK, I CALL IT THE ACCOUNTABILITY TRACK.

IT IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD ALL REALLY UNDERSTAND AND USE AS A BASIS TO HAVE SOME EMPATHY FOR PUBLIC SERVANTS.

YOU ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO BOTH OUTCOMES.

DOES THE SITE WORK?

AND PROCESSES AND PROCEDURES.

THEY AREN'T FREQUENTLY AT ODDS.

WE ARE ASKING THEM TO MAKE A CHOICE BETWEEN THE TWO.

IT IS THE FIDELITY TO PROCESS A PROCEDURE, THEIR CAREERS VERY OFTEN RELY ON.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER SENTENCES I LIKE, GOVERNMENT LEADERSHIP.

IN OTHER WORDS, GETTING SOMETHING IMPLEMENTED COMPARED TO THE JOB OF THOSE WHO DO THE BIG POLICY STUFF.

ESPECIALLY DEMOCRATS WHEN IT COMES TO ENVIRONMENTAL THINGS.

THEY WANT SO MANY PROCESSES AND PROCEDURES BEFORE SOMETHING CAN BE DONE.

POLICY GETS SHAPED BY THE PEOPLE WHO CAN IMPLEMENT IT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THIS.

WHEN WE END UP WITH NOT THE OUTCOME WE INTENDED, ALMOST ALL THE THINGS THAT ARE PILED ON TO MAKE IT HARD ARE REALLY WELL- INTENTIONED.

I AGREE WITH THE IDEA THAT WE SHOULD CHECK ENVIRONMENT SO THINGS BEFORE WE DO A BUILDING.

AT SOME POINT, YOU HAVE TO SAY FOR INSTANCE, WELL, WE NEED TO BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE TO ELECTRIFY OUR COUNTRY.

THAT WILL ACTUALLY GET US TO THE WRONG OUTCOME.

>> IS THAT PART OF THE HOUSING CRISIS?

>> VERY MUCH, YES.

I LIVE IN CALIFORNIA WHERE OUR CRISIS IS QUITE ACUTE.

MANY OF THE PROCEDURES THAT WERE PUT IN FOR MANY GOOD REASONS ARE NOW HURTING US.

THEY MAKE EVERYTHING TAKE TOO LONG, AND THEY GET TOO EXPENSIVE.

THAT IS EXCELLENT TO HOW WE BUILD GOVERNMENT SOFTWARE.

>> TELL ME, AND YOU DO SO AT THE END OF THE BOOK, HOW DO WE GET OUT OF THIS MESS?

>> IT WOULD NOT BE EASY.

THERE IS NO SILVER BULLET.

I DO THINK THERE ARE SPECIFIC THINGS THAT EACH OF US CAN DO.

I THINK IT STARTS WITH THINKING ABOUT IMPLEMENTATION AS THE IMPORTANT DAY OF WHAT WE HOLD OUR GOVERNMENT LEADERS ACCORDING TO -- WOULD TEND TO CELEBRATE WHEN AN ELECTED LEADER GET SOMETHING PASSED.

I WAS VERY HAPPY WHEN WE GOT THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT PASSED.

IT IS OUR SHOT AT AVOIDING A CLIMATE PROCESS.

IF WE DON'T IMPLEMENT THAT, WHY DID WE PASS IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

WHY DO WE DO ALL THAT TO GET IT PASSED?

WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT IMPLEMENTATION MORE THAN WE THINK ABOUT WHAT IS GETTING PAST.

OUR ELECTED LEADERS HAD TO SHIFT THEIR FOCUS, AS WELL.

THEY ARE SO FOCUSED ON WHAT POLICY I CAN SAY THAT GOT THROUGH CONGRESS, WHAT IS THE HEALTH OF THE BUREAUCRACY THAT USED TO IMPLEMENT THIS?

AND WHAT CAN I DO TO INCREASE THAT HEALTH?

EVERY LAW ENFORCEMENT POLICY THAT GETS PAST CAN BE IMPLEMENT IT WELL.

THIS ISN'T THE WORDS ON THE PAGE.

THIS IS THE OUTCOME, DO WE REALLY FEEL IT?

DO WE HAVE A HEALTHCARE SYSTEM THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND?

THAT IS WHERE WE NEED TO TURN OUR ATTENTION.

AGENCIES CERTAINLY THE PEOPLE WHO OVERSEE THEM IN LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, AND ALSO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

THEY DO WHAT THEY DO TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, AT LEAST TO SOME DEGREE.

>> JENNIFER PAHLKA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, IT WAS A PLEASURE.