GWEN IFILL: Countdown to the first big debate.

Can anyone break through, break past The Donald?

And on Capitol Hill, debates over Iran and highways.

Tonight, on Washington Week.

He leads every poll - DONALD TRUMP: (From video.)

Thank you.

GWEN IFILL: - attacking his foes.

DONALD TRUMP: (From video.)

You know, these guys debate every night of their life.

That's all they do is debate.

They debate all over the place and nothing happens.

FORMER TEXAS GOVERNOR RICK PERRY (R): (From video.)

Let's get a pull-up bar out there and see who can do the most pull-ups.

(Laughter.)

GWEN IFILL: But can he be president?

NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE (R): (From video.)

I just don't believe that the skills that you're talking about, that Donald has, are transferable to a governmental setting.

I just don't.

GWEN IFILL: The politics of provocation rules the race.

FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR MIKE HUCKABEE (R): (From video.)

He's so naive he would trust the Iranians and he would take the Israelis and basically march them to the door of the oven.

FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR JEB BUSH (R): (From video.)

This is not the way we're going to win elections and that's not how we're going to solve problems.

GWEN IFILL: Less than a week until the first big face-off - a summer duel with much at stake.

While on Capitol Hill, lawmakers debate war, peace, and highways.

HOUSE SPEAKER JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH): (From video.)

I'm proud of what we've accomplished in Congress so far this year.

HOUSE MINORITY LEADER NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): (From video.)

Can you believe we left on Wednesday afternoon?

GWEN IFILL: Covering the week, Robert Costa, political reporter for The Washington Post; Susan Davis, congressional correspondent for USA Today; and John Harwood, chief Washington correspondent for CNBC.

ANNOUNCER: Award-winning reporting and analysis.

Covering history as it happens.

From our nation's capital, this is Washington Week with Gwen Ifill.

Once again from Washington, moderator Gwen Ifill.

GWEN IFILL: Good evening.

So every poll is telling the same story.

Donald Trump is enjoying a summertime surge.

It's one that will be tested for the first time next week on a debate stage in Cleveland.

And suffice it to say, that when Trump is on stage, he dominates.

DONALD TRUMP: (From video.)

I think we're so politically correct in our country that people are sick and tired of it, and things aren't getting done.

So I don't think - certainly you want to be diplomatic.

I mean, we're diplomatic in our country, and everybody hates us all over the world.

GWEN IFILL: So, 16 other Republican candidates are left to compete for the grievance vote.

Mike Huckabee used a Holocaust reference to argue that the president's deal with Iran would endanger Israel.

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: (From video.)

The particular comments of Mr. Huckabee are I think part of just a general pattern that we've seen that is - would be considered ridiculous if it weren't so sad.

GWEN IFILL: But Huckabee did not back down.

MIKE HUCKABEE: (From video.)

I wasn't comparing the president to Adolf Hitler.

I'm comparing the situation that we face, when we did not take seriously the threat that was made to Jews for 20 years after the writings of Hitler.

GWEN IFILL: Chris Christie flat out said what others are thinking, that no matter his popularity now, Trump has a disqualifying characteristic.

This was in a conversation with John Harwood.

JOHN HARWOOD: (From video.)

Not possible for him to be a successful president?

GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE: (From video.)

I think it is less - much less likely for him to be successful than it is for me to be successful.

I don't think it would be in the best interests of our party to have someone who I don't think would be an effective president to be the nominee.

But you know, in the end, that's why I'm running.

GWEN IFILL: Some Republicans are worried about all this stone throwing.

Jeb Bush, speaking at the National Urban League conference today, tried for a little humor, saying he looks forward to sharing the stage with another candidate, Ben Carson, a neurosurgeon.

JEB BUSH: (From video.)

I'm glad he'll make it into the top 10 for next week's debate.

Before that thing's over, we might just need a doctor.

GWEN IFILL: Ha ha, right?

But this debate is turning out to be no joke, John.

Where do things stand, tonight?

JOHN HARWOOD: I think the first thing everybody's going to do is take a measure of whether Donald Trump looks like a joke on stage with those other candidates.

You know, most Republican political strategists have assumed that this is a phenomenon that is going to fade sooner rather than later.

And how he interacts with candidates, where it's not just him hurling invective from a distance but on stage with those people, I think that's the number one thing.

And then for the other candidates, they've got to figure out how to distinguish themselves.

It's a very crowded field.

Lots of governors, a few senators.

People are going to be laying their records alongside one another, and how they cast themselves in a way that helps them stand out is going to be what I'm watching.

GWEN IFILL: OK, so, Robert, we know that as of today there are 17 Republican - major Republican - excuse me - candidates, there are a lot more out there.

So how do we know who's going to be on the stage at this point on Thursday?

ROBERT COSTA: Well, Fox News, the host of the debate, will decide.

They'll announce early next week which 10 candidates actually will be able to appear on stage.

Those who don't make that first cut will be able to appear at a previous forum in the late afternoon on the day of the debate.

GWEN IFILL: So Friday - as of Friday night, tonight, when do - who do we think is likely to be there, who do we think is not likely to be there?

ROBERT COSTA: Well, we all know who's likely to be there - Donald Trump's leading the polls, Scott Walker's near the top, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Mike Huckabee, Ben Carson.

Then you get into this more on the bubble territory - the John Kasichs of the world.

Does Rick Perry of Texas - does he find his way in?

And John's interview guest, Governor Christie, he's doing a lot of interviews.

He's trying to get some attention to get on that stage.

GWEN IFILL: I noticed that actually Rick Perry has given four interviews to Fox News this week, trying to get on that stage, presumably.

JOHN HARWOOD: Everybody's trying to get their numbers up.

There's advertisement both nationally and in the early states.

The way I look at the national polling averages, there are three candidates toward the bottom who are - who are competing for the last two slots - Christie, John Kasich and Rick Perry.

If you just look at the averages as they appeared this morning, Christie and Kasich would be in, Perry would not be.

But this decision isn't going to get made till Tuesday, so it could change.

GWEN IFILL: So when you talk to these candidates, do they sound like if they're positioning themselves?

Or do they sound like if they're just - like, I talked to Rick Santorum a couple of weeks ago.

And he sounded like he's pretty much thrown up his hands, right?

Oh, I'm just going to go back to Iowa.

Well, that probably is a good idea, and then participate in this secondary forum.

Do they sound like if they're trying to figure out how to get on that stage?

ROBERT COSTA: At this point it's the 11th hour.

And if you're not Perry or Christie at this point, it's going to be very difficult.

One of the reasons John Kasich announced late is because he thought that would get me the bounce I need to get on that stage.

But then again, this is only the first of nine official Republican debates.

There will be other opportunities.

GWEN IFILL: OK, let's talk about Donald Trump.

We know that the horserace numbers tell us at this point that he's leading.

But what I'm curious about is if they tell us anything else, these polls, about who his supporters are, about who benefits if, for some reason, he is not in the race.

What else are we learning about Donald Trump from these polls?

JOHN HARWOOD: Well, we know that about half of Republicans nationally don't think there should be a path for citizenship for the 11 million undocumented immigrants this country now.

Of those, the - I believe it was the ABC poll showed a third supporting Donald Trump, 34 percent.

That is a very healthy chunk of a large chunk of the Republican electorate.

In addition to that, he speaks to a lot of people in way that we once thought Chris Christie might do, who are tired of scripted politicians, want somebody who is aggressive, who talks straight - at least as they interpret it - and somebody who will go out and smack some people around.

And some Donald Trump is certainly doing that.

Is it presidential?

That's what we find out when the voting starts.

We're in the entertainment phase of the campaign.

GWEN IFILL: Yes, we are.

And we love it.

Robert, however, what distinction does it make whether he's an actual conservative or not?

If you go back and look at his record he's been all over the map, but maybe that doesn't matter.

ROBERT COSTA: It may not matter.

And I was briefed earlier today by Donald Trump's advisers about his debate strategy.

And they said - GWEN IFILL: Oh, do tell.

(Laughs.)

ROBERT COSTA: So it was a fascinating conversation, because they believe everyone thinks he's going to be an outsized presence on that stage.

They think Trump's actual plan is to hold back, to let others come at him, to have lines ready and to be prepared.

But he thinks a lot of the other campaigns are having opposition research done on Trump right now and going after his conservative record.

But he thinks it's - to go back to John's point, if he's comfortable with himself, if he's a representative of the anti-politics of an outsider, then he can succeed and he doesn't need to be - he's the poll leader.

He doesn't need to be the star.

He just needs to be Donald Trump.

GWEN IFILL: So that's what Donald Trump's doing.

What do the other candidates do?

Do they just decide to ignore the elephant on the stage, as it were, or do they have a strategy for that?

JOHN HARWOOD: I don't think Jeb Bush wants to ignore the elephant.

You know, Jeb Bush of all the Republican candidates may be the least likely to inherit Donald Trump's vote.

So he has an interest in distinguishing himself as he courts all those other people.

And he's got the stature and the presence to be able to do that.

I think the people who are in a solid, but less robust position are going to be distinguishing themselves from each other.

I've been interested in the back and forth among Kasich, Christie and Walker about their gubernatorial records.

John Kasich put out a release recently where he said my rating is 60 percent in Ohio.

Scott Walker and Chris Christie are about 40 percent in their home states.

That says I'm more viable.

I talked this week to Christie, who said - GWEN IFILL: Who's the audience for that little detail?

I don't know.

JOHN HARWOOD: Well, but it's a way of talking about yourself as a successful politician.

I talked to Scott Walker this week, and he said, well, that's because I've taken on tough fights and had the left wing against me.

And people want a - Republicans want a leader who will take risks.

Chris Christie said, well, that's because those guys were on the ballot last year.

They spent all this money to promote themselves.

John Kasich spent all this money to promote himself, so he's got higher ratings than I do.

Everybody's going to have a justification.

GWEN IFILL: Scott Walker seems to be actually kind of Zen about all of this.

Let's take a listen to something he had to say about this whole big crowded field this week.

WISCONSIN GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER (R): (From video.)

With this many great Republicans in the field, this is not just going to be wrapped up after a couple states.

It's probably going to be a couple months in, if not longer.

And we're ready for the long haul.

GWEN IFILL: The long haul.

He doesn't seem like he's even - he's thinking right past this debate, isn't he?

ROBERT COSTA: That's right.

Walker's team believes the Trump phenomenon is a summer romance between Trump and the conservative activists, and eventually it'll fizzle out.

And so Walker's focused on fundraising, he's working on building a national network.

He believes he can eventually become that alternative to Jeb Bush and be there in the top tier.

The other thing you got to watch this week is everyone's expecting fireworks at this debate, but if you're Ted Cruz, if you're Ben Carson, if you're Mike Huckabee, you want that Trump coalition should Trump not pan out.

And so I don't expect them, when I talk to their advisers, for them to go hard after Trump.

GWEN IFILL: You know, because there are so many of them, it's easy to spend a lot of time obsessing about - a little bit about what's happening with the Republicans.

But I also want to talk about what's happening with the Democrats here.

Today Hillary Clinton, who had clearly decided who she's running against, was at the National Urban League convention in Fort Lauderdale.

And she took a couple of not very well-veiled digs against Jeb Bush.

FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE HILLARY CLINTON: (From video.)

I don't think you can credibly say that everyone has a right to rise, and then say you're for phasing out Medicare or for repealing Obamacare.

People can't rise if they can't afford health care.

(Applause.)

They can't rise if the minimum wage is too low to live on.

They can't rise if their governor makes it harder for them to get a college education.

And you cannot seriously talk about the right to rise and support laws that deny the right to vote.

(Applause.)

GWEN IFILL: Well, John.

JOHN HARWOOD: Hillary Clinton was defending her turf.

That is a constituency that she hopes to do extremely well with, as President Obama did.

And so she went after Jeb Bush.

Interestingly, Jeb Bush did not return the fire.

Jeb Bush's speech was - GWEN IFILL: He spoke a couple hours later, yeah.

JOHN HARWOOD: That's right.

He spoke later.

His speech was high-minded, very effectively and passionately delivered, the best speech I've seen from him in the campaign so far.

And that is why this is going to be a match-up to watch, if both of them end up surviving this process.

GWEN IFILL: On the other hand, Jeb Bush is still pulling in a lot of money.

Today's the deadline for us to find out about a lot of that super PAC money that's coming out.

And he's looking pretty - sitting pretty pretty.

ROBERT COSTA: He is.

I mean, he's by far the financial frontrunner in the Republican field.

And that's the whole Jeb Bush play - long term, build the network, have the hundred million-plus ready with the super PAC, so you can have the positive ads and the negative ads once this campaign really heats up.

And you don't see Bush going after Trump.

You don't see Bush going after Clinton.

This is a careful campaign.

But as John said, he's a candidate who's becoming more confident.

GWEN IFILL: Now, if you were watching the Urban League appearance today, you also saw Bernie Sanders show up and make a point.

You know, Bernie Sanders is pretty out there, if he wants to be.

Is he creeping up at all?

I mean, Hillary Clinton's way ahead in the polls, but is he creeping up?

He's certainly - his trajectory is more like this and hers is like that.

JOHN HARWOOD: I think he is creeping up, mostly with white liberals.

He needs to do better with African-Americans if he's going to mount a serious challenge.

I still think we're in a situation where Bernie Sanders is a refreshing voice to a lot of Democrats who think that - who don't want caution in their Democratic leaders, who want a full-out push for bigger government activism, and going after the rich and all that.

I still don't think you have many people in the party who think he poses a serious threat to her nomination.

GWEN IFILL: Go ahead, Sue, I want to actually - I feel like I'm ignoring you, and I want to pull you in on this senator thing here, because what we're seeing with Bernie Sanders on the road is far more robust than I think anybody who's covered him in the Senate expected.

SUSAN DAVIS: Yeah, and - well, I think that part of what he speaks to, too, is while we focus so much on the divide in the Republican side.

But there is a very significant, sincere divide among Democrats who are reluctant about Hillary Clinton, that think that they would like to have a different candidate, a more liberal candidate, a more progressive candidate.

And sort of the Obama wing of the party that helped get them to '08, that coalition, and whether they're going to be there.

And I think that Bernie's new, he's different.

And I think he seems in some ways - in some ways like Donald Trump, an anti-politician.

He's authentic.

He's been consistent.

He says what he means.

He has sort of a gruff style.

And I think it's kind of refreshing for some voters on the campaign trail.

JOHN HARWOOD: But he's not attacking in personal terms Hillary Clinton or anyone else, really.

SUSAN DAVIS: No, no.

Not at all.

And he's been ideologically consistent his whole career, which I think particularly among liberal progressive Democrats, that has an appeal.

ROBERT COSTA: It's fascinating.

When you listen to Clinton speak versus Sanders speak, their messages are similar, but Sanders really rails against the moneyed class in America, against wealth, against corporatism.

Clinton, with her speech today and many others, she rails against the Republican Party.

She's much more partisan - energetic and passionate, but it's a different kind of message - liberal versus more straightforward Democratic.

JOHN HARWOOD: And threading the needle on the issue of Wall Street, where, you know, Bernie Sanders talks about a political revolution, really taking on higher tax rates, much more stringent regulation on people at the top.

Hillary Clinton has a more incremental set of proposals.

And interestingly, Ted Cruz and some other Republicans are saying, oh, she's not going to do anything on Wall Street.

She's a status quo candidate, just like Jeb Bush.

That's what the far right is saying - trying to lump Bush and Clinton together.

GWEN IFILL: You know, you talk about Senator Cruz.

He has, as still a sitting U.S.

Senator, found his own politics of provocation up here on Capitol Hill, Sue.

It's been quite something.

He started out by calling Mitch McConnell a liar on the floor.

And he has not backed down at all.

SUSAN DAVIS: Yeah.

No, and has not apologized in any way either.

I think, you know, part of what that is drawn into is the presidential politics.

Obviously he's running for 2016 and that, I think, was probably a larger driving of that than anger over the highway bill.

But you know, in some cases when you have Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Bernie Sanders, the Senate is going to become a platform for 2016, particularly for these candidates who aren't breaking through.

They have the Senate floor to try and make that a platform.

GWEN IFILL: And particularly for candidates who - there's some value in being seen as an outsider, even if you're an insider - or especially if you're an insider.

SUSAN DAVIS: Yeah.

I mean, nobody ever lost any points running against Washington, and certainly not in this political climate.

And running against the Republican establishment when you're trying to win the Republican nomination is not necessarily a bad thing.

JOHN HARWOOD: Sue, my question for you is, when I was covering Congress, I thought if you called somebody a liar on the floor your words would get taken down and you would be rebuked instantaneously.

That didn't happen.

Why not?

SUSAN DAVIS: No, I think the - and I think that's a good point.

Certainly they could have.

They had the option to.

I think in some ways, too, you do have an establishment leadership, Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, who are managing this element of the party.

They don't want - they don't want to inflame the right, but they don't want to appease them either.

GWEN IFILL: It might have also be possible that may have been just the thing that Ted Cruz wanted.

I can see the ad already: they took down my words, they tried to silence me.

SUSAN DAVIS: The establishment was trying to knock me back.

And they can't.

GWEN IFILL: So maybe you just don't - SUSAN DAVIS: I'm a fighter.

GWEN IFILL: Exactly.

Well, on Capitol Hill we're approaching that time of year when big things hang in the balance as the House and the Senate begin to think summer vacation.

Yesterday the Senate agreed to a stopgap extension of a major transportation bill, guaranteeing another fight in three months.

SENATE MINORITY LEADER HARRY REID (R-NV): (From video.)

Once again, we're facing another deadline.

It's a deadline here, it's a deadline here, but always deadlines - management by crisis.

GWEN IFILL: Meanwhile, the 60-day clock is running on congressional review of the Iran nuclear deal, and it remains unclear how that's going to shake out.

Where does that stand tonight, Sue?

SUSAN DAVIS: Well, it's interesting because we go into the August recess, and normally when Congress leaves the party in power likes to do a big hurrah, toot the horn, look at what we've done.

And they're kind of quietly backing out the back door this summer.

It's setting up what I think is going to be a very consequential September and October.

The Iran debate, they have till September 17th to take some action to try and weigh in on the Iran nuclear deal.

It seems as though - although it hasn't been fully decided - that they're going to try and approve a - or pass a resolution of disapproval.

Republicans are in control.

They're going to try and block it.

Which is going to set up a really interesting veto override fight with the administration, which is where you see President Obama and top administration officials - GWEN IFILL: Who has already pledged to do this.

SUSAN DAVIS: He will veto it; that is not a question - who has been very actively courting Democrats.

You know, he had House Democrats to the White House on Wednesday evening this week for a little - a little cocktail reception, which is obviously not something that they do very often so you know - (laughs) - he must really need them.

Because they need to make sure that they're going to have the votes they need to block any attempt to veto override.

GWEN IFILL: Isn't it also unusual that in something that is so legacy building, that is so critical, that the president's gone so far out on a limb to defend, that he should be wooing Democrats at this stage?

SUSAN DAVIS: Well, yes and no.

I think that particularly when you factor in, too, the pro-Israel lobby, AIPAC, and other aligned forces, that have a lot of traditional Democratic allies, that they have come out so hard against this, particularly - and they have a lot of Democratic supporters.

So I think for a lot of Democrats it's a tough vote, that they're torn between particularly allegiances over Israel, concerns raised by Benjamin Netanyahu that this is not a good deal, particularly for the constituents - that have a lot of Jewish constituencies and who are really concerned about it.

GWEN IFILL: Well, Sander Levin, the congressman - retiring congressman from Michigan - retiring?

I believe so.

No, his brother.

SUSAN DAVIS: Brother retired.

Carl retired.

GWEN IFILL: Brother retired.

I get the Levins mixed up.

SUSAN DAVIS: Happens all the time.

GWEN IFILL: But anyway, he is the longest-serving Jewish member of the House, and he came out in favor of the deal this week.

SUSAN DAVIS: Which was - which was - John Kerry touted when he was - it happened while he was testifying before a House committee, and he brought to the attention of members.

I mean, so you can see that they are actively courting lawmakers of that tenure in the House.

I think it matters a lot that Nancy Pelosi's on board and she's actively working her members.

She said yesterday that every day more and more members come to her and say they're going to be with the administration on this, so.

GWEN IFILL: The objective is not just to win over pro-Israel members, it's also the concern among some Republicans that there are these side deals that were cut with the IAEA.

SUSAN DAVIS: IAEA.

GWEN IFILL: Yeah, the atomic inspection agency.

SUSAN DAVIS: The inspections, yeah.

GWEN IFILL: And that has got a lot of Republicans - especially John McCain, Bob Corker - unhappy.

SUSAN DAVIS: It does.

And Ted Cruz, for instance, has said that they don't feel that they've received all the paperwork related to this deal and any potential side deals that they're reached with the IAEA and Iran.

And he's saying the 60-day clock hasn't started yet; we don't feel that that clock has started until we get all of the paperwork.

So we could see - the deadline, September 17th, is set by the administration, but we could see some argument over that as well.

GWEN IFILL: That's interesting.

OK, well, let's talk about the highway bill.

What are we, 39 times we have done this?

SUSAN DAVIS: Thirty-four, I believe.

GWEN IFILL: Thirty-four.

I'm way ahead of myself.

We may hit 39 yet.

SUSAN DAVIS: Yeah.

(Laughs.)

We might get there.

GWEN IFILL: And that's the number of times they have voted to kick this down the road and not to pass a long-term extension.

What's going on?

SUSAN DAVIS: You know, I think the highway bill is best understood as an example of how Congress has become so dysfunctional in the past five, six years in that 34 extensions only since 2009.

The highway bill is, in the simplest of terms, politicians filling potholes.

And this used to be an incredibly easy bill to pass because everybody can run on it, everybody likes it, and there's nobody out there really opposing it.

But - GWEN IFILL: It was the pro- - it was the pro-pork-barrel bill.

People - SUSAN DAVIS: There's no - yes.

But there's no anti-highway lobbyists out there.

Everyone's just trying to get a piece of it, more likely.

It comes down to the fact that we have this deep philosophical divide between the two parties on how we pay for the things we want.

They both want the highway bill; it's just a very different view on how you get there.

And there is absolutely zero chance Republicans are going to raise any new taxes to get there.

And as one Democratic lawmaker said this week, you know, it's almost like we're scrounging for change at this point to figure out the things we want to pay for.

Even the Senate bill that - the long-term bill that isn't passed, but the one they'd like to get to, is a six-year bill that's only funded for three years, you know?

GWEN IFILL: Yeah, that's - SUSAN DAVIS: So they're getting - paying for the things we want is probably the biggest philosophical question facing the Republicans.

JOHN HARWOOD: Sue, are you saying that Congress is not good at planning ahead?

(Laughs.)

GWEN IFILL: Well, let's be clear about what's on the table now, because what's on the table is a bill that would extend this - this is what the House passed - for three months.

SUSAN DAVIS: Three months, till the end of October.

GWEN IFILL: And the Senate has passed one that would extend it for six years?

SUSAN DAVIS: Six years, but only pay for it for three.

GWEN IFILL: But only pay for it for three.

SUSAN DAVIS: And then they passed the short-terms because we were - we were facing at the end of this month a shutdown, starting to stop shovel-ready projects that - they would stop.

So we're funded to October.

GWEN IFILL: Now, remind me about what happened after the Amtrak derailment, which was there was much discussion about getting this piece of equipment onto Amtrak trains - it was going to be included in the highway bill - that was going to stop this from happening in the future, and that is all tied up in this as well.

SUSAN DAVIS: Yeah.

I mean, the thing, too, I think, is that the will is there to get the long-term highway bill, but I also think that we are in a reality where Congress can't really do anything until the absolute last minute, until every other process has been exhausted, until they just wear people out to get there.

(Laughs.)

And so I think they could get there, but it remains to be seen.

I also think is what's very interesting is Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader, has really been pushing hard to get a long-term bill.

And I think that Mitch McConnell sees the highway bill as a good example of proving that Republicans know how to govern, and that that he has been - from the time that Republicans took over the Senate, he said, my job is to prove we can be a center-right governing majority.

And maybe no bill better exemplifies that than a highway bill, so he's going to work very hard to get a long-term bill done.

GWEN IFILL: It seems like it's flipsides of the same argument because on the campaign trail nobody wants to be center-right.

And yet, in the Senate and the House - well, at least in the Senate - they're talking about the virtues of being center-right.

I don't even see how that becomes the same political debate, does it?

Does it at least seep over at all?

ROBERT COSTA: Well, I mean, I think the highway bill is also a fun example to see how Congress has changed in this sense.

It used to be a place where you had the pork-barrel spending, and it was a way to actually help govern because leaders in Congress were able to put things in a - in a huge omnibus big bill, like the highway bill, and get votes and win favor and keep the place running.

Now, with earmarks banned, there's no such insertions in the highway bill, or at least - there's some, but it's not done in the same way.

JOHN HARWOOD: I think a lot of members - GWEN IFILL: We got to - we got to - JOHN HARWOOD: I think a lot of members would tell you banning earmarks was the most penny wise, pound foolish decision Congress made.

GWEN IFILL: Well, and we'll see.

Well, thank you all.

Thank you all for that.

We've got to go for now, but I have got two pieces of good news.

First, our conversation here will continue online, where we will talk some more about John's conversations this week with Carly Fiorina, Scott Walker and Chris Christie - all in one week.

That's on our Washington Week Webcast Extra, PBS.org/WashingtonWeek.

Keep up with developments with me and Judy Woodruff at the PBS NewsHour.

And the other good news: we'll be back around our regular table next week on Washington Week.

Good night.