JEFFREY GOLDBE REPORTER: You believe the# government is going to shut down?

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Yes,# and it's Kevin McCar JEFFREY GOLDBERG: A very strang Hill as Republicans fight among themselves about# government fundi Then -- SEN.

RAN JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- Ukraine's president visits# Capitol Hill looking for weapons and support,## but some people aren't buying his arguments.

Plus -- UN JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- the Pentagon is finally# th e Senate has figured out a temporary way# around Tommy Tuberville's chokehold, next.

Good evening and welcome to Washington Week.

So, the question on my mind this# week, or one is this.

Why would anyone want to be# the speaker of the House?

I get it,## there's great health and dental, and you# never have to look for a parking spot,## which in Washington is a big deal, actually.# But the job sounds like pure misery.

For instance, here's what the former speaker,# John Boehner, looks like in retirement,## and here's what Kevin McCarthy looks# like.

So, I think you get my point.

Capitol Hill unhappiness, unhappiness# that's rooted in rules and behavior## so arcane that most normal people have a# hard time understanding what's happening,## means that the government# might lose its funding soon,## and it also means that great matters of war and# peace, i Vladimir Putin get caught in the grinding# gears of legislative branch dysfunction.

So many questions.

To give us the answers,# I have three very smart people here with## me.

Steve Inskeep is the host of NPR's morning# edition, and the author of the forthcoming book,## Differ We Must, How Lincoln Succeeded# in a Divided America, Vivian Salama,## a reporter for The Wall Street Journal, and Manu# Raju is CNN's chief congressiona correspondent,## and starting this weekend, the new host of# Inside Politics Sunday.

Congratulations on the -- MANU RAJU, Chief Congressional# Correspondent, CNN: Thank you.

JE I've been doing this for five# weeks.

And so I am here -- MANU RAJU: It's going great.

JEFFREY GOLD Manu, I want to start with# you, but before we even start,## I want you to watch a brief video clip of war# correspondent in MANU RAJU: I'm curious, why change your position?

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA):# I never change my position.

KEVIN MCCARTHY: You MANU RAJU: I'm just asking about your# words, why did you change your words?

KEVIN MCCARTHY: Okay.

Well,# let me ans because I answered it every single day,# JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So -- MANU RAJU: Yes, that's what I heard.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, first# of MANU RAJU: Yes.

McCarthy is just having a pretty miserable# time trying to be speaker of the House?

MANU RAJU: It's very difficult right now.# That specific interaction was actually -- I## believe it was last week's story, although# it's kind of all blurred together when## they moved forward on the impeachment# inquiry.

Remember, just days he had said publicly they would actually have# a vote to actually initiate inquiry into Joe Biden, and he changed his mind.# He didn't have a vote and he wouldn't explain why.

So, I was trying to ask him why you changed# your mind and he just simply wouldn't do it -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The temerity.

MANU RAJU: Exactly, exactly.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes.

MANU RAJU: B is why they spent so much money to try to get in# the big majority in the last midterm elections,## and they failed to get a big majority.# Now, if he loses votes, four votes or five,## you can only afford to lose four Republican votes,## and any party line votes, those five members# An d the problem is being a Republican# House speaker in particular is that## those members on the far right, they# don't care what their leadership says.## They march to their own beat.

And as# a result, you're seeing them tie him## up in knots as they are pushing a whole# host of measures on the spending fight.

And McCarthy has made the calculated decision.# He needs to keep the government open by getting## Republicans on board and passing a Republican-only# bill out of the House to try to force his way with## the Senate and negotiations with the Senate,# rather than moving on a bipartisan approach## in the House where he can get Democratic# support.

Why?

Because one of those members,## if he goes to the Democratic route, could seek a# vote for his ouster and push him out as speaker.# And that is really what's driving his calculations# here as he struggles to keep the government open.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: A quick follow-up for you.

Does# Kevin McCarthy make it a full year as speaker?

MANU RAJU: You know, it is a day by day for him# right now.

It really is.

And this is the I expect a vote as soon as next week initiated# by Matt Gaetz to call for his ouster.

At that## same point, five members, they vote no, they can# kick him out.

But he says he's not going to go## anywhere.

He's going to grind it out like# he did in January.

Can he win?

We'll see.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is Matt Gaetz# actually in charge of America right now?

STEVE INSKEEP, Host, Morning Edition, NPR: I'm# just marveling at the timing anything else going on in the next few days# th who is speaker of the House?

I don't think Matt# Gaetz is in control of anything bu t he has a lot of media attention and# in this circumstance he has leverage.

I mean, the simple thing that -- I mean, it's a# simple truth that apparently is alluding people## in politics you need a majority.

In Congress you# need a majority.

McCarthy has not accumulated## one.

Manu has pointed to the place where you would# go to get it.

You would have to go to Democrats,## but has decided that the price is too# high for him, I guess, at the moment.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes.

Vivian, I mean,## the question is, are we VI VIAN SALAMA, Reporter, The Wall# Street Journal: Well, as we sit here,## lawmakers have packed up and ar They have only a few more days left to negotiate.# If by midnight on October 1st, the parts of the## government that need appropriations bills do not# have approval, we're going for a shutdown.

And## right now, I mean, based on everything# Manu just said, it's not looking good.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Manu, come# back to this question.

I'm just so## interested in this.

The speaker's job in better# circumstances, if he had a bigger majority,## would be doable, or is there some# culture shift that is permanent?

MANU RAJU: Yes.

I mean, look, I think# after the 2010 midterms that really## ushered in this new Tea Party wave of# members in the Republican conference,## those were the members who simply had# a much different view of government.

As## McCarthy himself said this week, these are some# of the members who want to burn the place down.## They simply don't believe in the institutions.# They don't care what their leadership says.

And## they're the ones who drove John Boehner from# the speakership by making that same threat,## a motion to actually kick him out of the# speakership, which is why he resigned in 2015.

Now with that narrow majority, it's# much very, very difficult because those## members that he needs to keep in line# are just not going to listen to him here.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is there anything# he could do to get them to listen?

MANU RAJU: He's tried everything.

I# mean, he h he has tried to keep the government open with# a short-term spending bill for a month that## includes everything they asked for.

But there# are a handful of members who say they're just## not going to vote for a short-term bill to# keep the government open no So , he said there are about seven of those.

So,## he can only lose those four if he goes JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

And correct# me if I'm wrong, but there's no -- STEVE INSKEEP: I'm happy to do that all the time.

JE Senate is not going to buy whatever the# Congress winds of selling them anyway.

STEVE INSKEEP: There's no way.

Of course, Senators# are talking -- Senators are talking about passing their own# resolution first.

Normally they would wait for the House to act first, but they're not going# to accept whatever the House passes in a way, symbolic.

Even if they passed# a bill, it's not going to be the law.

MANU RAJU: That's absolutely right.

They're# going to spend all this time on a bill that's## going nowhere.

And the Senate, the challenge# for the Senate, is such a slow-movin one member can slow it down.

Rand Paul, who you# showed earlier, is planning to slow it includes Ukraine aid.

So, it could take all week# next week just to pass the Senate bill, and then## they got to figure out how to get it through# the House, and that is a huge, huge question.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Steve raises a point that's# kind of infused with a bit of ex If it's not going to go anywhere, and it doesn't# mean anything, why are we even talking about it?

STEVE INSKEEP: Is that the# question you're putting?

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I don' STEVE INSKEEP: I guess you can# say as part of the process,## I mean, even a bill that doesn't but that presumes then that# you're willing to negotiate.

MANU RAJU: Yes, and it's a political# argume we passed a bill, passed our bill, keep the# gove Chuck Schumer, the Senate majority# leader, they're not passing a bill.

So, it is, but if they don't pass anything,## then it's very clearly JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Vivian, let's talk for a minute# about anot Tommy Tuberville's holds on Pentagon# nominations or Pentagon promotions.

This week,## kind of figured out a little bit of a maneuver to# get a couple of folks, some of the key personnel,## in their permanent jobs.

But give us a# sort of state of play.

Where is this right## now?

And why does Tommy Tuberville, a freshman# senator from Alabama, why does he have so much## power over the entire promotion system for flag# officers, for general officers in the military?

VIVIAN SALAMA: This has been a thorn on the# side of the administration since day one,## but particularly in the last few months,# where you do have Tuberville essentially## trying to push back and hold out.

This is# something that has happened in the past## also with other lawmakers, including# Ted Cruz, who have pushed no JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But never# with uniformed officer VIVIAN SALAMA: But never with uniformed# officers.

And this is someth the administration has been going out# there and really trying to attack him to say, you are endangering the# national security of our country.

So, right now, we are at a point where the# chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Mark is on the verge of retirement.

And, finally,# they were able to push forward partially## because Chuck Schumer and others were said,# enough is enough, we need to make this happen.

And so they are going to push# forward with at least C. Q. Brown,## who you showed earlier.

He was the head of# the Air Force and now he's the presumptive## next chairman of the Joint Chiefs.# But there are still dozens and dozens.

MANU RAJU: There's about 300.

VIVIAN SALAMA: Yes up and waiting.

And there doesn't# seem to be any movement on that.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But it doesn't seem like the## administration is gripped by this as# somewhat of a lackadaisical effort# to try to move Tuberville off this.

STEVE INSKEEP: Well, you have to ask what# the administration can do.

I think this## White House likes to approach problems that they# can actually deal do things behind the scenes.

But self-interest,# in a way, works against them, because Tuberville is using a power of holding nominations that all# senators have.

It's a tradition, it's a custom.## Any senator can stop a nomination for a# period of time or, apparently, forever.

And if they were to overcome that# in Tuberville's case, they would be## losing their own -- they'd be throwing away# their own power to do that at some point.

MANU RAJU: And I've asked Tuberville many# times about what wil back off.

And it's really one thing.# He wants Pentagon to change his policy## to provide reimbursements for personnel# who seek abortions out of state if their## procedure is banned in that particular# state.

It's really nothing short of that.

And, in some ways, Schumer's hands was forced# this week by Tuberville, who was going to use## a rare parliamentary procedure to try to schedule# the votes on these individual nominations himself.## Schumer had resisted having those individual# votes because he believed giving in -- doing that,## would be giving into Tuberville, wanting# to simply approve all of them in one block.

But because Tuberville took that maneuver, Schumer# preempted him and moved forward with those handf of nominees here.

So, the question is what's# going to happen for the other few hundred.

VIVIAN SALAMA: And he got some flak for that,## because they s JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Can you, Vivian,# just stay on the sub turn.

What is the impact on military# readiness of Tuberville's actions?

VIVIAN SALAMA: Extraordinary.

You know, it's# not just about military readiness.

It's about## the impact on the families of these military# families who don't know where they're moving## to next month.

They have to put their kids# in school.

The school year just started and## they don't know where their next posting is# going to be.

I mean, the list goes on and on Obviously, military readiness is something that is# very, very important in certain bases and, you know, essentially executing# military policy in that way.

But the impact on the## families is so significant.

And that is something# that weighs heavily on the military as well.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

And correct me if I'm# wrong, but these officers, uniformed officers,## aren't the people who make these policies# that Tuberville is objecting to in any case.

VIVIAN SALAMA: Of course not.

JE VIVIAN SALAMA: They're very mu STEVE INSKEEP: That's got to be part# of t to be stuck in this way and know tha JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Steve -- STEVE INSKEEP: Yes.

JEFFREY GOLDBE so we got the next best thing.

This is# your book and it's absolutely fascinating.

STEVE INSKEEP: Thank you.

JEFFREY GOLDBE you spent a lot of time studying how# Lincoln, in a very polarized Washington,## got people to compromise and got people# to agree with him when they disagreed.## What would Lincoln say if he were the# speaker in the House?

And, by the way,## this is non-refutable.

You could say anything# you want, because he's not going to comment.

STEVE INSKEEP: It's a counterfactual.# It's hypothetical.

I think there are a few## things that I learned from studying Lincoln# that do apply.

One a majority matters.

You need to build a# majority.

And Lincoln was not practicing## the kind of politics that I think# we recognize today, base politics,## playing to your base, playing to your most# extreme members, trying to grow wi ng of your party.

He was reaching over# to other people to try to build a majority.

He wasn't trying to agree with everybody.

He# ended up being the president who fought a war## against another part of the country.

So he wasn't# getting everybody onto his side.

But he was trying# to keep a majority on his side.

And he sometimes# crossed party lines to do that.

He changed parti himself at one point to do that.

He also --# this is pertinent to McCarthy's situation, was## willing to step aside for the good of the cause.

There was a Senate race in 1855 where it was a## vote in a legislature to be the next senator.

And# he realized he could not do it for his side.

He## couldn't get the majority for his side but another# guy on his side could.

And he stepped back and let## that other guy become senator.

That's a thing# that you can do.

I don't know that McCarthy## actually can do that.

Who else would be speaker?# That may not actually be a relevant question here.

McCarthy might be the most reasonable, the# best possible choice to be speaker right now,## for all we know, given that we don't# know what the alternative would be.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right, right.

What are the --# when Abraham Lin act, selfless political act, was that more# common in that age or was he just uncommon?

STEVE INSKEEP: Oh, no, plenty# of selfishness in that age.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I understood that.

But was that## an extraordinary manifestation# of this man's charac STEVE INSKEEP: It was bu ilding this new party, the Republican Party,# incidentally, which was anti-slavery party.

He## wasn't even formally a Republican at that point.# And he was, in stepping back, getting a win for## the cause, defeating his rival who was on the# other side in that particular battle.

And he was## also building up credit for himself in the future.# He was running for the Senate.

He lost that seat.## He gave it to somebody else.

But then he became# the party's nominee the next time around.

And he was aware that people acted# out of interest and self-interest,## and that he had self-interest as well.

But# he tried to align that with a higher cause,## which is something that he did in that case.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let's talk# I think all of us have interviewed him,# president of Ukraine, President Zelenskyy,## who actually admires Abraham Lincoln# quite a bit.

And I'm sure he said that.

STEVE INSKEEP: We didn't discuss# that.

I would have handed in the book.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You know, you could# STEVE INSKEEP: I seriously thought about that.

STEVE INSKEEP: I'll send it to him.

JEFFRE President Zelenskyy shows up in Washington.# It's not lik joint session of Congress.

There are people## who aren't as interested in funding# the Ukraine wars there used to Vi vian, let's start with the# visit itself.

Was it from## President Zelenskyy's perspective successful?

VIVIAN SALAMA: Well, it was the day af you will, because today, on Friday,# it was announced that he was going## to get ATACMS.

The ATACMS are thes been asking for all along and saying# that is going to be -- yes, exactly.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: They spend a lot of time# coming up with it, yes, with those ATACMS.

VIVIAN SALAMA: Exactly.

And so on Friday, it# seemed apparent that the Biden administration,## after months and months of hesitation, was# finally going to agree to that.

And that, for## President Zelenskyy, was a win because that was# something he believes would break this stalemate,## essentially, that is occurring on the battlefield# right now in Ukraine.

So, for that reason, it was.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

also, enthusiasm in Wash is something that's alarming because this war# is not ending anytime soon and he needs to know,## he wanted to leave here with assurances that he# was still going to have America having his back.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: One quick thing about# these processes that we've now witnessed## for quite a while, the administration starts by# saying, the Ukra and then the next week, they get X.

Could you# explain why we've seen this over and over again?

VIVIAN SALAMA: On one of my visits to Ukraine,# I had a very senior general who would tell me,## you know, the Americans are really# slow to respond, but when they do,## it's like lightning.

And that is something that# they have seen versus for example, that just sends and sends,# reacts very quickly, and a couple of others.

But the U.S. weapons systems are essentially# the best.

There's nothing better than them.## The U.S. has given more weapons than any# other country, and so they can't afford## to alienate the United States.

But there# is frustration, and especially because the## big offensive that we've been waiting for# this entire year is really moving slowly,## there's a high rate of attrition, and they're# taking back very little territory.

We still## have the Russians holding a land bridge over the# Black Sea, and that's very dangerous for them.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Manu, how# popular is the Ukraine cause on the Hill?

MANU RAJU: Yes.

I think it still has wide support.# The question is does it have enough support,## the right support, meaning the speaker of# the House.

It's really that's what it is.## Because if you put it on for a vote in the# Senate, you're probably getting 75 votes,## maybe 80 votes.

It's going to pass easily.

You# saw the bipartisan showing with Schumer and## McConnell next to Zelenskyy walking through the# Capitol.

That was very obvious.

On the House side,## it was not McCarthy and Hakeem Jeffries walking# along with Zelenskyy.

It was just Jeffries.

Now, McCarthy is because he is facing pressure# from his right flank, folks who don't want to## spend a dime more, the same people we were just# talking about.

And that is what is driving his## handling of this.

And if he doesn't want to put# this on the floor, it won't get on the floor.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What would McCarthy do# if he were just following his conscience?

MANU RAJU: I think he would get behind# Ukraine.

He was there, and he was very## supportive of this.

Look, this could be a big# flashpoint in the government shutdown fight.## Chuck Schumer told me yesterday that he wants to# add it to the bill to keep the government open by the end of this month.

That wouldn't force# McCarthy to make a decision on this issue.

VIVIAN SALAMA: And, by the way, Jeff, I don't# think that -- you know, we talk about Donald Trump## and whether or not he would come back and that# alarms the U that Donald Trump would reject sending more aid# to Ukraine.

It could just be political rhetoric.

Remember, Donald Trump was the one who# approved Javelins another kind of weapons## system that the Ukrainians were desperate# for when the Obama admi STEVE INSKEEP: I feel that one way to# read McCarthy, and you'll correc is that he is trying to bring support# behind the cause of Ukraine.

And there## was a kind of drama in the last several# days where he says, I have questions,## I have serious questions for Zelenskyy.

And then# he met Zelenskyy and walke he answered all my questions.

And that can# be part of a process of building support.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Speaking of which,## you've intervi STEVE INSKEEP: He responded to all my questions,## yes, which is a slightly different# thing, JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Tell us the# highlights and answer sp specifically, how worried is he about Congress?

STEVE INSKEEP: He is worried about Congress.# An told.

McCarthy had questions about how U.S.# money has been spent.

Zelenskyy, o is over in Ukraine and is aware that there# are these concerns in Congress that this## is one of the questions that's going to be# raised.

How are they spending American money?

And this first time there was a whiff# of corruption in their defense they let go of the defense# minister, who was very powerful,## and Vivian knows all about this, and# got rid of a number of top ot her top people in the defense ministry.# Zelenskyy then comes to the United States## and is able to tell Kevin McCarthy that.

McCarthy# walks out of the meeting with Zelenskyy and hey, he's really on top of things here.

He got# rid of all these defense ministry officials.

In our interview, in talking about that specific# incident, Zelenskyy said, one re to be on top of corruption immediately is# because otherwise we will lose the support## of our partners.

So, he's changing personnel# in Kyiv with a mind to keep Congress on board.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

I want to just# read a quick quote from Mark Milley,## who I interviewed quite a bit# over the last several months.## It's a fascinating quote about the# centrality of the Ukraine cause.

We the Americans are the primary authors of# the basic rules of the road, and these rules## are under stress and they're fraying at the# edges.

That's why Ukraine is so important.## President Putin has made a mockery of those# rules.

He's making a mockery of He is making a direct frontal assault# on the rules that were written in 1945.

Based on all of your assessment of where# the Republicans are, or for that matter,## many people in the Democratic Party, do you think# that the Ukraine cause can be sustained over the## long term?

Because as you note, and you've been# plenty of time in the battlefields in Ukraine,## going on offense is hard, and it could be a long# slog.

Give me your -- in the last minute we have,## give me your very quick assessments# of the staying power of this issue.

STEVE INSKEEP: Zelenskyy said he thought# the hardest part of the war was over.## My feeling is closer to yours, that it's hard to# see how the hardest could be over at this t MANU RAJU: And, look, I think that on the Hill# that the question is how much more money will## the U.S. have to commit to this, and that is# one area of concern that this $24 billion,## even if it is improved, how many more tranches# of cash will the U.S. ask for to help Ukraine,## can that get approved, all huge questions.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Vivian,# VIVIAN SALAMA: One of the things I hear# do n't know what the future is going to be for# Ukraine.

And but we also fear for the future# there could be a government change,## something could happen that could really# change the face of Easte And so there's a lot of eyes on the# situation, but it's going to JE FFREY GOLDBERG: It is a# fascinating conversation,## very, very smart people.

Thank you very much for# doing this.

there.

But I want to thank our panelists for# joining us and sharing all of your reporting.

You can read excerpts of Steve's new book,## Differ We Must, How Lincoln Succeeded# yo u can read it on theatlantic.com this Monday.# And also thanks to all of you for joining us.

On tomorrow's PBS News Weekend, driverless taxis,## are they the way of the# future or a dangerous idea?

I am Jeffrey Goldberg.

Good night from Washington.