LAURA: BEFORE JOHN BECAME DIRECTOR OF THE WATER RESOURCES PROGRAM AT UNM, HE WAS A JOURNALIST FOR 30 YEARS COVERING WATER, SCIENCE AND NATIONAL LABORATORIES IN NEW MEXICO.

OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, HE TURNED HIS ATTENTION TO THE COLORADO RIVER.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

FLECK IT IS SO GREAT TO BE HERE.

LAURA: SO, CAN WE START WITH AN OVERVIEW OF THE COLORADO RIVER.

WHERE IS IT?

WHO USES IT?

FLECK: SO, THE COLORADO RIVER BASIN STARTS IN THE HIGH MOUNTAINS OF THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS IN COLORADO, A LITTLE BIT IN WYOMING AND UTAH, BEGINS THE SNOW MELT, FLOWS DOWN THROUGH THE CANYON COUNTRY OF UTAH, FAMOUS GRAND CANYON, AND OUT INTO THE DESERTS OF ARIZONA AND CALIFORNIA AND SONORA AND BAJA.

IT ALSO IS THE SUPPLY OF WATER TO PLACES LIKE ALBUQUERQUE BECAUSE THROUGHOUT THE COLORADO RIVER BASIN, WE BUILT DIVERSIONS TO TAKE WATER OUT OF THE BASIN TO PLACES WHERE PEOPLE LIVE LIKE SANTA FE AND ALBUQUERQUE HERE IN NEW MEXICO, DENVER ON THE FRONT RANGE IN COLORADO, LA AND SAN DIEGO OVER ON THE WEST COAST.

LAURA: OKAY.

WHO IS USING THE WATER?

WHO REALLY RELIES ON IT?

FLECK: WE HAVE SOMETHING LIKE 40 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES AND MEXICO WHO RELY ON THE WATER FOR WATER SUPPLY, FOR MUNICIPAL WATER SUPPLIES AND PLACES LIKE ALBUQUERQUE, WHICH IS WHY I AM SO INTERESTED IN IT.

WE ALSO HAVE LARGE AREAS OF FARMLAND.

THIS TIME OF YEAR IN THE WINTER, THE LETTUCE YOU EAT IS PROBABLY BEING GROWN WITH COLORADO RIVER WATER DOWN IN IMPERIAL, ARIZONA AND CALIFORNIA DESERTS.

LARGE AGRICULTURAL AREAS.

PERHAPS 80% OF THE RIVERS WATER GOES TO AGRICULTURE AND A LOT GOES TO ALFALFA TO FEED COWS AND DAIRIES FOR PIZZA CHEESE AND HAMBURGERS.

A LOT TO WINTER VEGETABLES THAT WE HAVE BECOME SO ACCUSTOMED TO GETTING IN THE SUPERMARKET YEAR ROUND.

LAURA: THE BOOK THAT YOU JUST CO-AUTHORED, YOU GO THROUGH A NUMBER OF REALLY INTERESTING PIECES OF HISTORY AND SCIENCE AND KIND OF EXPLORE THE COLORADO RIVER COMPACT.

BUT I FEEL THERE IS ONE MAIN POINT THAT YOU REALLY DRIVE HOME IN THIS BOOK.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT WITH OUR VIEWERS.

fLECK: THE PROBLEM.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT FROM THE BEGINNING, AS WE WERE DEVELOPING THE COLORADO RIVER, DECIDING HOW MUCH WATER TO ALLOCATE TO EACH OF THE SEVEN STATES IN THE UNITED STATES AND TWO IN MEXICO, HOW BIG DAMS TO BUILD AND WHAT KIND OF CANALS TO BUILD, WE OVERESTIMATED THE AVAILABLE SUPPLY SO WE CAME TO EXPECT MORE WATER THAN THE RIVER COULD PROVIDE AND THE CONVENTIONAL STORY IS, WELL, IT WAS A REALLY WET PERIOD WHEN THEY ALLOCATED THE WATER AND THAT IS THE STORY I BELIEVED FOR A LONG TIME, BUT WHAT ERIC AND I DID IS GO BACK INTO THE OLD HYDROLOGIC RECORDS AND SURVEYS, WE FOUND THAT, IN FACT, THERE WERE SCIENTISTS AT THE TIME WHO WERE WARNING THAT WE WERE OVER-ALLOCATING THE RIVER, THAT IT COULDN'T PROVIDE THE AMOUNT OF WATER THAT THEY WERE PLANNING ON DEVELOPING.

AND THAT OVER TIME, WE WOULD RUN OUT OF THOSE AVAILABLE SUPPLIES, IF WE OVER-ALLOCATED THE WAY WE DID.

IT IS A QUESTION OF IGNORING INCONVENIENT AND WE SAW THIS HAPPEN IN THE TEENS AND 20'S WHEN THE FIRST THE WATER ALLOCATION RULES WERE DEVELOPED AND THEN ERIC AND I DOCUMENTED IT HAPPENINGS OVER AND OVER AGAIN THROUGH THE HISTORY OF COLORADO RIVER'S DEVELOPMENT.

WE KEPT PROMISING MORE WATER THAN THE RIVER COULD PROVIDE AND SORT OF PUSHING OFF THE PROBLEMS ONTO FUTURE GENERATIONS.

THE FUTURE HAS NOW ARRIVED.

RESERVOIRS ARE DRAINING BECAUSE WE ARE TRYING TO CONTINUE TO USE MORE WATER THAN THE WATER CAN PROVIDE, SO WE ARE AT THE MOMENT OF RECKONING RIGHT NOW.

LAURA: YOU MENTIONED YOUR CO-AUTHOR.

SORRY HE IS NOT HERE WITH US TODAY.

CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ERIC?

FLECK: ERIC KUHN IS ACTUALLY A GRADUATE OF THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO.

FOR THREE DECADES WORKED FOR THE COLORADO RIVER WATER CONSERVATION DISTRICT, ULTIMATELY ITS GENERAL MANAGER, AND ERIC AND I HOOKED UP, YOU KNOW, FOUR YEARS AGO TO START WORKING ON THIS BOOK.

ERIC BROUGHT TO THE PROJECT THESE BRILLIANT INSIGHTS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE HYDROLOGY AND THE WATER ALLOCATION RULES AND MANAGEMENT BECAUSE HE WAS WORKING IN THE SYSTEM THROUGHOUT THE LAST THREE DECADES AS WE WERE COMING TO THIS RECKONING.

AND ERIC IS THE ONE, I THINK, MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE IN THE BASIN, WHO REALLY REALIZED EARLY ON THE SCIENTIFIC MISTAKES, THE MISTAKES IN IGNORING THE INCONVENIENT SCIENCE THAT ARE AT THE HEART OF THE BASIN'S PROBLEMS TODAY.

LAURA: HOW DOES THAT PLAY OUT TODAY?

WE HAVE LOTS OF USERS, CITIES, STATES, FARMERS.

WE HAVE A WARMING CLIMATE.

WE HAVE DEMANDS FOR WATER.

HOW ARE THOSE DECISIONS THAT WERE MADE BACK IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY PLAYING OUT TODAY AND AFFECTING WHAT WE CAN AND CAN'T DO TODAY?

FLECK: WE ARE IN A PERIOD OF TRANSITION IN COLORADO RIVER BASIN GOVERNANCE FROM A TIME OF PLENTY AND WE HAD FULL RESERVOIRS TO FIGURING OUT HOW TO USE LESS WATER.

AND WE HAVE THE SORT OF FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM WHERE YOU HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE THESE EXPECTATIONS BASED ON THE OLD WATER ALLOCATION FORMULAS WORKED OUT A CENTURY AGO THAT, WELL, WE ARE ENTITLED TO X AMOUNT OF WATER WHERE X IS A REALLY BIG NUMBER AND THE RIVER CAN'T PROVIDE THAT.

SO WE HAVE A LOT OF WATER USERS THINKING, YEAH, BUT IT SAYS IN THE COLORADO RIVER COMPACT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO GET THIS MUCH WATER.

WHY CAN'T WE.

AND COMING TO TERMS WITH THAT, RECOGNIZING MODERN SCIENCE AND THIS IS THE CASE EVEN BEFORE WE START TO DEAL WITH THE AFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND THEN CLIMATE CHANGE MAKES IT THAT MUCH HARDER.

SO THE REALITY IS COMING TO TERMS WITH AND GETTING PEOPLE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL AND PLACES LIKE SANTA FE AND ALBUQUERQUE AND L.A. AND SAN DIEGO AND THE IMPERIAL VALLEY TO REALIZE, THERE AIN'T THAT MUCH WATER IN THE RIVER.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET WHAT THE COMPACT TOLD US WE SHOULD EXPECT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS HAPPENING, AND WE TALK ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK, IN FACT, WE ARE DOING A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF USING LESS WATER.

CALIFORNIA'S TAKE ON THE COLORADO RIVER IN 2019 WAS THE LOWEST IT HAS EVER BEEN.

CALIFORNIA IS USING LESS WATER.

ARIZONA IS CUTTING BACK, ALBUQUERQUE IS PHENOMENALLY SUCCESSFUL.

SO, PART OF WHAT IS GOING ON, PEOPLE, IN FACT, WHEN THEY HAVE LESS WATER, ARE SUCCESSFUL IN USING LESS WATER, THE CHALLENGE IS TO RECOGNIZE THAT AND NOT FEEL LIKE, WELL, AS THE POPULATION GROWS, WE HAVE TO GET MORE WATER.

THE WATER ISN'T THERE.

COMING TO TERMS WITH THAT AND FIGURING OUT HOW TO RECKON WITH THAT REALITY WITH THIS LESS WATER, AND I AM CONFIDENT WE CAN DO THAT, BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF CHALLENGES TO DOING THAT.

LAURA: LOOKING BACK, I THINK IT IS INTERESTING, I LOVE THIS BOOK AND I LOVE THAT YOU AND ERIC TURN THAT NARRATIVE ON ITS HEAD.

FOR MANY OF US PAYING ATTENTION TO WATER ISSUES, THERE HAS BEEN THIS WHOLE IDEA OF IT WAS A WET PERIOD WHEN THEY WERE DIVVYING UP THE COLORADO RIVER WATERS AND WE HAD THIS IDEA, LOOKING BACK, OH, WELL, THEY JUST DIDN'T KNOW ANY BITTER.

BUT WHAT YOU FOUND IS THAT THEY DID KNOW BETTER.

LAURA: CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE SURPRISE OF THAT, PERHAPS?

FLECK: THERE IS THIS WONDERFUL CHARACTER NAMED EUGENE CLYDE LARUE THAT WE TALK ABOUT A LOT IN THE BOOK.

HE IS AN AMAZING GUY.

EARLY HYDROLOGIST AND LARUE WAS THE U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY SCIENTIST WHO THE NATION TURNED TO TO PULL TOGETHER THE BIG REPORTS THAT SAID HOW MUCH WATER THERE IS.

LARUE WAS VERY CLEVER ABOUT LOOKING INTO OLD CLIMATE RECORDS AND REALIZING THERE HAD BEEN SIGNIFICANT DROUGHTS BEFORE THIS WET PERIOD.

AND TRIED TO WARN PEOPLE OF THAT.

THE MOMENT FOR ME IN WRITING THE BOOK, AS MUCH AS ANY, WAS READING OLD CONGRESSIONAL HEARING TRANSCRIPTS BECAUSE WE WERE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, WHAT WERE PEOPLE THINKING AS THEY WERE MAKING THOSE DECISIONS.

WE WENT BACK TO THE HEARINGS BEFORE CONGRESS AND A HEARING IN 1925 WHAT LARUE SITS BEFORE A BUNCH OF SENATORS AND SAYS, THERE IS NOT ENOUGH WATER TO DO WHAT YOU'RE PLANNING TO DO.

AND I CAN STILL REMEMBER THE DAY I WAS SITTING THERE FIRST READING THAT TRANSCRIPT AND I KEPT READING AND WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO ASK HIM ABOUT THAT.

AND THEY NEVER DID.

YOU KNOW.

LARUE IS SITTING DOWN BEFORE A COMMITTEE OF THE U.S. SENATE SAYING THERE IS NOT ENOUGH WATER FOR THE PROJECTS YOU'RE ABOUT TO BUILD AND NOBODY EVEN ASKED HIM ABOUT IT.

THE IGNORANCE WAS SORT OF WILLFUL.

LAURA: RIGHT.

SO WHAT STORIES DO WE TELL OURSELVES TODAY, MAYBE THAT AREN'T QUITE ACCURATE OR WHAT DO WE NEED TO BE QUESTIONING TODAY, SO THAT WE DON'T DO THE COLORADO RIVER OF THE FUTURE.

FLECK: SO, ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ONES IS THE COMMON BELIEF, AND THIS IS COMMON NOT ONLY ON THE PART OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC, BUT ON THE PART OF A LOT OF WATER MANAGERS.

ERIC AND I GET A LOT OF PUSH BACK FROM WATER MANAGERS ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT, WELL, IF WE ARE GOING TO HAVE GROWING POPULATION, WE NEED A BIGGER WATER SUPPLY.

LAURA: THAT IS JUST NOT THE CASE.

THERE IS THIS PHENOMENON GOING ON WHERE WATER USE IS GOING DOWN EVEN AS POPULATION RISES AND THIS PROVIDES THE SPACE FOR SUCCESS TO HAPPEN, BUT IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IF WE DON'T RECOGNIZE THIS REALITY.

THIS HAS SORT OF BECOME RECOGNIZED AS THE SORT OF NEW INCONVENIENT SCIENCE THAT PEOPLE JUST DON'T WANT TO LISTEN TO.

AND IT IS AMAZING TO ME THE KIND OF PUSH BACK WE GET WHEN WE TRY TO MAKE THIS ARGUMENT.

PEOPLE, SAY, NO, BUT THE DEMAND WILL GO UP.

IT IS NOT GOING UP AND WE SEE THIS EVERYWHERE.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH FARTHER DOWN IT CAN GO.

THAT IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE, THAT IS A REALLY ACTIVE AREA OF RESEARCH, THE KIND OF STUFF WE ARE WORKING ON NOW AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO, MY SORT OF NEW ACADEMIC CAREER, UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO WATER RESOURCES LOOKING AT THESE QUESTIONS OF WHAT USING LESS WATER REALLY LOOKS LIKE FOR THESE COMMUNITIES.

BUT ACKNOWLEDGING THAT WE CAN USE LESS WATER CREATES THE SPACE FOR COLLABORATIVE SOLUTIONS BECAUSE WE HAVE SOME ADDITIONAL WATER NEEDS THAT ARE GOING TO BE REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT.

I MEAN, ONE IS THE NATION'S OBLIGATIONS TO THE NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES WHICH HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT OF THE WATER ALLOCATION SCHEME WE HAVE BEEN DEVELOPING OVER THE LAST CENTURY AND THERE IS LEGAL AND ETHICAL ISSUES ABOUT OUR RESPONSIBILITIES TO THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND IN ALL THIS WATER DEVELOPMENT.

AND THEN WE ARE REALLY STARTING TO GET THE HANG OF RETURNING WATER TO THE ENVIRONMENT.

HOW WE DO THAT IS A HARD PROBLEM ESPECIALLY WITH CLIMATE CHANGE.

BUT, IF WE RECOGNIZE THAT WE CAN USE LESS WATER ON OUR FARMS AND IN OUR CITIES, THAT CREATES THE SPACE IF WE CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO PROPERLY EXPLOIT IT TO PROVIDE WATER TO THESE KIND OF LEFT OUT PARTS OF THE SYSTEM OF THE ENVIRONMENT IN NATIVE COMMUNITIES.

FLECK: WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT WATER AND RIVERS IN THE SOUTHWEST WITHOUT AT LEAST MENTIONING SNOWPACK.

WE HAD A GOOD SNOWPACK AND RUNOFF LAST YEAR.

WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS THIS YEAR.

DO WE NEED MORE THAN ONE OR TWO GOOD YEARS?

YEAH.

SO, ONE OF THE REAL CHALLENGES -- SO, ONE OF THE ROLES I PLAY AS A PUBLIC FIGURE IN THIS WHOLE ROLE NOW IS PEOPLE INVITE ME TO SPEAK AT CONFERENCES.

I AM AN OPTIMIST AND THEN THE CLIMATE CHANGE SCIENTISTS, AND THE SCIENTISTS THESE REALLY GLOOMY NEGATIVE THINGS AND THERE IS SOME REALLY DIRE CLIMATE CHANGE SCENARIOS THAT I DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE THINKING WE HAVE A WAY OUT OF.

BUT, SO, THE CLIMATE CHANGE IS AN ENORMOUS PROBLEM THAT IS REDUCING AMOUNT OF RUNOFF WE GET FOR A GIVEN AMOUNT OF RAIN AND SNOW THAT FALLS IN THE MOUNTAINS.

AND SO ONE BIG YEAR DOESN'T DO IT.

EVEN A SERIES OF BIG YEARS, DOESN'T DO IT.

IT BUYS US MORE TIME TO BE MORE FLEXIBLE IN THESE SOLUTIONS BUT WE ALSO NEED TO REMEMBER THAT WE CAN'T TAKE OUR FOOT OFF THE GAS IF WE HAVE A WET YEAR.

WE NEED TO WORK AGGRESSIVELY WITH WATER CONSERVATION EFFORTS AND COLLABORATIVE WATER SHARING ARRANGEMENTS EVEN WHEN THE RESERVOIRS PICK UP A LITTLE BUT AS THEY HAVE IN RECENT YEARS.

RIGHT.

WELL, THANK YOU FOR CONTINUING TO WRITE ABOUT WATER AND KEEP US ALL UPDATED ON WHAT IS HAPPENING AND THANKS FOR JOINING US.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

THIS WAS FUN.