>> Laura: LAURA MCCARTHY AND LINDSEY QUAM, THANKS FOR JOINING ME TODAY.

>> McCarthy: GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Laura: IT IS ONLY MARCH BUT WE NEEDED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION EARLIER EVERY YEAR.

WHAT IS THE OUTLOOK FOR NEW MEXICO'S FIRE SEASON THIS YEAR?

>> McCarthy: SO, PROBABLY FIRST OF MIND IS WHAT HAPPENED IN TEXAS LAST WEEK AND THE SPEED AT WHICH THAT GRASS FIRE GOT REALLY BIG AND DANGEROUS.

AND SO THERE ARE PARTS OF NEW MEXICO RIGHT NOW WHERE THAT KIND OF FIRE COULD HAVE HAPPENED HERE AND ON A RED FLAG DAY LIKE THE DAY WHEN THAT FIRE TOOK OFF, WE COULD HAVE EXPERIENCED THAT SAME FIRE BEHAVIOR.

AT THE SAME TIME, THERE ARE ALSO OTHER PARTS OF THE STATE, ESPECIALLY THE NORTHERN MOUNTAINS, THAT HAVE A PRETTY HIGH SNOW PACK, MORE THAN AVERAGE, AND WHILE THAT IS GREAT WE ALSO KNOW THAT WITH CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE WARMING TEMPERATURES THAT SNOW IS GOING TO DISAPPEAR A LOT FASTER THAN IT USED TO.

SO, THAT IS KIND OF PART 1 IS WHAT IS OUR CURRENT CONDITION.

THE FORECAST DOES HAVE IN IT THAT THE EL NINO IS WEAKENING AND THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF LA NINA RETURNING AND SO WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THAT IS GOING TO MEAN FOR US.

WE ARE ANTICIPATING THAT THERE WILL BE A GREEN UP THIS SPRING, THAT THERE IS ENOUGH MOISTURE FOR THAT AND THAT, RIGHT AWAY, SEPARATES IT FROM 2022 WHEN IT WAS JUST SO DRY THAT THERE WAS NO GREEN UP.

BUT AFTER THE GREEN UP, EVERYTHING IS GOING TO DRY OUT IN JUNE AND WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THE MONSOON WILL HIT AND WHAT KIND OF STRENGTH IT WILL HAVE.

AND THIS TRANSITION FROM EL NINO TO LA NINA DOES AFFECT WHETHER WE HAVE A MONSOON AT ALL AND ITS STRENGTH.

SO WE ARE TAKING A REALLY CAUTIOUS APPROACH AND WE WOULD ADVOCATE THAT EVERYBODY TAKE A CAUTIOUS APPROACH AS WELL.

WE HAVE ALREADY HAD SEVERAL RED FLAG DAYS AND SO THE WINDINESS IS GOING TO MAKE A REALLY BIG DIFFERENCE TO HOW LONG THE SNOW PACK LASTS AND THEN HOW QUICKLY THINGS DRY OUT.

THAT IS MY PERSPECTIVE.

I AM SURE LINDSEY CAN ADD TO THIS.

>> Quam: I THINK LAURA COVERED IT WELL, BUT, YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK, REALLY THE IMPACTS FOR THE MONSOON SEASON COULD BE SIGNIFICANT DEPENDING ON WHETHER OR NOT IT IS DELAYED, IF IT COMES ON EARLY.

I THINK SOME OF THE PREDICTIONS ARE THAT IT MAY COME ON A LITTLE LATER BUT COULD POTENTIALLY BE SIGNIFICANT, SIGNIFICANT IN TERMS OF MOISTURE.

SO, CRAP SHOOT IN A WAY.

>> Laura: I JUST WANT TO REITERATE FOR OUR AUDIENCE THAT STATE FORESTRY IS DIFFERENT FROM THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE, BUT I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT LESSONS WE HAVE LEARNED SINCE 2022.

I GUESS WE'LL START WITH YOU LINDSEY.

>> Quam: I THINK FOR US, SOME OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT LESSONS WE LEARNED WERE BEING CAUTIOUS WITH PRESCRIBED BURNING BUT STILL UNDERSTANDING THAT IT IS A SIGNIFICANT RESOURCE AND BENEFIT TO FORESTS.

ALSO COMMUNICATING WITH OUR PARTNERS, FOREST SERVICE BEING ONE OF THEM, HAVING BETTER COMMUNICATION, HAVING BETTER PRESEASON COMMUNICATION, BUT JUST COMMUNICATION IN GENERAL THROUGHOUT THE YEAR ON ACTIONS, ON PROJECTS, ON PLANNING, IMPLEMENTATION, AND THEN ALSO COMMUNICATING WITH SOME OF OUR STATE PARTNERS TOO, I THINK, WAS THE BIGGEST THING, TOO, THAT WE LEARNED FROM THAT.

SO COMMUNICATION ALL ACROSS THE BOARD WITH PEOPLE AND OTHER AGENCIES THAT ARE INVOLVED IN EITHER WILDLAND RESPONSE OR SOME TYPE OF EMERGENCY RESPONSE.

AND I THINK LAURA MAY ELABORATE MORE ON THAT.

>> McCarthy: WELL, YOU MENTIONED THAT THE STATE FORESTRY DIVISION IS NOT THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO CONNECTED TO ONE OF OUR LESSONS, SO, OUR AGENCY IS PART OF THE STATE'S ENERGY, MINERALS AND NATURAL RESOURCES DEPARTMENT AND WE HAVE BEEN AROUND SINCE 1957 WITH JURISDICTION PRIMARILY FOR WILDLAND FIRE SUPPRESSION ON THE STATE AND PRIVATE LAND WHICH IS 43 MILLION ACRES.

AND WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO THAT WITH A FULL-TIME STAFF OF LOW 80'S POSITIONS.

AND THAT IS NOT ENOUGH.

SO ONE OF OUR LESSONS WAS THAT WE NEED TO BUILD STATE CAPACITY TO RESPOND TO THE STATE AND PRIVATE FIRES AND TO SUPPORT THE FEDERAL AGENCIES WITH LOCAL CREWS THAT CAN BE ON SCENE VERY QUICKLY.

AND THE LEGISLATURE HEARD THAT NEED AND SAW THE EMERGING LESSON AND GAVE US 50 POSITIONS IN THE 2023 LEGISLATIVE SESSION WHICH ARE NOW SHOULD BE FULLY STAFFED FOR OUR FIRE SEASON AHEAD.

SO, I THINK THAT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT LESSON AND CHANGE.

>> Laura: SO DOES NEW MEXICO HAVE ITS OWN HOTSHOT CREW NOW?

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> McCarthy: YES.

AND, HOTSHOT HAS A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT MEANINGS AND ONE OF ITS MEANINGS IS TO BE A TYPE 1 CREW UNDER THE NATIONAL STANDARD SET BY THE NATIONAL WILDFIRE COORDINATING GROUP.

SO, WHILE OUR INTENTION WITH THE NEW POSITIONS IS TO CREATE TWO HOTSHOT CREWS FOR NEW MEXICO THAT MEET THAT TYPE 1 STANDARD, WE AREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO HIRE THEM OUT OF THE BOX.

IT IS GOING TO TAKE ABOUT THREE YEARS, MAYBE AS MUCH AS FIVE YEARS, TO FULLY DEVELOP THAT TYPE 1 ELITE LEVEL CAPACITY.

BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF EXCITEMENT AROUND IT AND WE WILL BE ABLE TO FILL AS A TYPE 2 CREW FROM DAY ONE.

SO THEY WILL BE GAINING THE EXPERIENCE OVER THIS TIME PERIOD SO THAT HOPEFULLY IN THREE YEARS THEY ARE QUALIFIED AS A TYPE 1 CREW.

>> Laura: OKAY.

WE HAVE GONE THROUGH SHOWS AND HAD CONVERSATIONS ABOUT PRESCRIBED FIRE WITH YOU IN THE PAST AS WELL AS WITH THE FOREST SERVICE.

AND, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE QUESTIONS WHEN I AM LIKE MEETING WITH THE PUBLIC OR WHATEVER, EVERYBODY WANTS TO ASK ME WHAT I THINK OF PRESCRIBED FIRE, IF I TRUST AGENCIES, IF I TRUST PRESCRIBED FIRE AND I AM INTERESTED IN LIGHT OF KIND OF A BETRAYAL OF TRUST, I THINK, THAT HAPPENED ON THE PART OF THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE, PEOPLE HAVE A LOT OF RESISTANCE TO PRESCRIBED FIRE IN NEW MEXICO.

AND I WOULD LOVE FOR EACH OF YOU TO TALK ABOUT PRESCRIBED FIRE AS A TOOL AND ITS NECESSITY AND ALSO MAYBE HOW WE HAVE CHANGED OR TALK ABOUT CHANGING HOW WE USE PRESCRIBED FIRE.

LINDSEY, IF YOU WANT TO START.

>> Quam: REALLY IN THE HISTORICAL SENSE WITH OUR WESTERN FORESTS, I MEAN, FIRE WAS A VITAL PIECE AND IS A VITAL PIECE TO THE STRUCTURE AND COMPOSITION OF OUR FORESTS.

IT IS BECAUSE OF TAKING THAT VITAL PIECE OUT IS WHY WE HAVE THE CONDITIONS THAT WE ARE FACING RIGHT NOW AND WHY FORESTS AREN'T HEALTHY AND OVERLOADED AND WHY THERE IS A DRASTIC NEED TO GET IT BACK TO SOME TYPE OF FUNCTIONING SYSTEM.

AND, AGAIN, WHEN YOU TAKE A VITAL PIECE OUT OF ANY COMPONENT, IT IS NOT GOING TO OPERATE PROPERLY.

YOU HAVE CASCADING EFFECTS.

THAT IS WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH RIGHT NOW.

WE ARE DEALING WITH ABOUT 100 PLUS YEARS OF FIRE SUPPRESSION AND REMOVING FIRE OUT OF THAT ESSENTIAL SYSTEM.

SO, FORESTS DON'T KNOW HOW TO ADAPT TO IT.

SO, WE ARE FORCED WITH HAVING TO HELP MANAGE THAT ADAPTATION BUT WE NEED TO INCLUDE THAT VITAL PIECE TO HELP US HELP THE FOREST.

A LOT OF IT, I THINK, FALLS INTO BRANDING, IN A WAY, OF PROMOTING GOOD FIRE AND THE BENEFITS OF FIRE.

I THINK IN GENERAL, THE PUBLIC UNDERSTANDS THE IMPORTANCE OF IT BUT THERE IS ALSO CERTAIN PORTIONS OF THE PUBLIC, I THINK, IN MY OPINION, THAT STILL HANG ON TO THE SMOKY BEAR LEGACY AND THE MESSAGING BEHIND SMOKY BEAR AND THAT ALL FIRES ARE BAD.

I THINK IT IS -- THAT IS HARDER TO OVERCOME AND THEN SOME OF THE OTHERS THAT ARE AGAINST FIRE, PER SE, IN LARGER SCALE, USE OF IT, IS THEIR HEALTH BENEFITS OR THE HEALTH RISKS THAT MAY BE ASSOCIATED WITH SMOKE.

SO, I THINK PART OF WHAT WE COULD DO BETTER IS ALSO MESSAGING SOME OF THE FACTS BEHIND PRESCRIBED SMOKE VERSUS WILDFIRE SMOKE.

AND HOW THE BENEFITS THAT COME FROM PRESCRIBED BURNING IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT OF THE FOREST, MANAGEMENT OF FUELS, HOW IT REDUCES RISKS TO WILD URBAN INTERFACE AND COMMUNITIES AND ALL OF THAT.

>> McCarthy: SO, IN ADDITION TO WHAT LINDSEY SAID, I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT CULTURE AND CLIMATE.

SO, ON THE CULTURE SIDE, I THINK THAT -- AND THIS IS BASED ON MY OWN EXPERIENCE -- THERE IS A FIRE FIGHTING CULTURE THAT HAS A LOT OF BRAVADO TO IT AND IT HAS BEEN LONG STANDING.

OUR STATE AGENCY HAS NOT BEEN IMMUNE TO IT.

IT IS WELL DOCUMENTED IN THE FOREST SERVICE AS TO AN ARROGANCE AND SOMETIMES TOXICITY WITHIN THE FIRE FIGHTING CULTURE.

AND I THINK IT REALLY AFFECTS DECISION MAKING WHEN IT COMES TO MAKING THAT WE HAVE GOT EVERYTHING LINED UP FOR GO.

LINDSEY AND I JOINTLY, AS STATE FORESTER AND DEPUTY, HAVE WORKED REALLY HARD ON CHANGING OUR ORGANIZATIONAL CULTURE, BOTH ON THE FIRE FIGHTING -- FOR OUR FIREFIGHTERS BUT ALSO FOR ALL OF OUR EMPLOYEES.

AND IT HAS BEEN A FOUR-YEAR EFFORT THAT IS REALLY BEARING FRUIT NOW AND SOME OF THAT IS HUMILITY AND A CORE VALUE OF LEARNING FROM MISTAKES AND KIND OF A FAIL FORWARD SORT OF ATTITUDE, BUT WITH PRESCRIBED BURNING, YOU CAN'T REALLY AFFORD A FAIL BUT YOU DO NEED TO BE CONSTANTLY LEARNING.

SO, A CULTURE OF LEARNING, A CULTURE OF QUESTION ASKING WHERE IT IS SAFE TO DO THAT.

THEN THERE IS THE CLIMATE EFFECTS.

AND MY VIEW ON THE HERMIT'S PEAK CALF CANYON IS THAT THE SOIL WAS SO UNBELIEVABLY DRY FROM THAT EXTENDED LA NINA, I THINK THERE WERE TWO GROWING SEASONS IN LA NINA PLUS THE WINTERS, THAT THERE WERE CHANGES, PHYSIOLOGICAL CHANGES IN THE VEGETATION THAT WEREN'T BEING MEASURED AND THAT THE PEOPLE DOING THE IGNITING AND THE TEST FIRES WEREN'T CONSCIOUS OF.

AND THAT CONNECTS TO OUR CULTURE BECAUSE AS LINDSEY SAID, THE SCIENCE IS CLEAR THAT WE HAVE TO PUT FIRE BACK ON THE LAND IF WE ARE GOING TO HAVE FORESTS AT ALL.

OTHERWISE, THE CLIMATE WILL JUST TAKE CARE OF THEM AND THEY'LL DISAPPEAR OVER CENTURIES.

BUT IF WE WANT TO MAINTAIN OUR FORESTS WITH FIRE, THEN WE HAVE TO LEARN TO BE MORE SENSITIVE TO HOW THE CLIMATE IS INTERACTING WITH THE FOREST ITSELF, BUT NOT JUST THE VEGETATION.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE SOIL REALLY MATTERS, ESPECIALLY ON THOSE PILE BURNS WITH THE SLEEPER FIRES.

>> Laura: SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I HAVE HEARD TALKED ABOUT, PARTICULARLY IN PLACES LIKE CALIFORNIA, IS LIKE INDIGENOUS OR CULTURAL BURNING.

AND THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF REALLY COOL PROJECTS, PARTICULARLY IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT IS HAPPENING HERE IN NEW MEXICO AT ALL OR IS THAT WE HAVE AGENCIES THAT HAVE PARTNERSHIPS WITH TRIBES ON THIS?

>> Quam: YEAH, SO THE FORESTRY DIVISION WE HAVE STARTED A TRIBAL WORKING GROUP WHICH HAS MORPHED WITH OTHER PARTNERS OR NONPROFIT PARTNERS LIKE TNT NEW MEXICO AND THE FOREST STEWARDS GUILD HAVE JOINED IN AND KIND OF HELPED MOVE THAT COLLABORATIVE GROUP TO A LARGER AUDIENCE IN TERMS OF TRIBAL PARTICIPATION.

SO, IT IS MORPHED INTO A TRIBAL WILDFIRE WORKING GROUP WHERE WE MEET QUARTERLY WITH USUALLY ABOUT 12 TRIBES ACROSS THE STATE AND MOVE TOWARDS TRYING TO GET SIGNIFICANT ACTION WITH WILDFIRE TRAINING, PRESCRIBED BURNING.

CULTURAL BURNING HAS BEEN A HOT TOPIC AND WE HAVE EVEN INVITED, THROUGH TNT'S INDIGENOUS PEOPLES BURNING NETWORK MANAGERS TO COME AND GIVE PRESENTATIONS AND TRY AND PROMOTE CULTURAL BURNING.

WE HAVE EVEN INVITED TRIBES FROM CALIFORNIA TO COME AND PRESENT.

THERE HAS BEEN NUMEROUS WORKSHOPS AND CONFERENCES THAT HAVE RECENTLY BEEN HELD WITH THAT FOCUS TO TRY AND PROMOTE IT WITHIN THE TRIBES IN NEW MEXICO.

IT IS REALLY UP TO THE TRIBES WHETHER OR NOT THEY CHOOSE TO INCORPORATE CULTURAL BURNING INTO THEIR ACTIONS.

A LOT OF THE DISCUSSIONS HAVE BEEN HINGED AROUND WHAT THAT MEANS IN TERMS OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS WHO HAS -- WELL, ALL FEDERAL AGENCIES HAVE THE TRUST RESPONSIBILITY TOWARDS TRIBES, BUT THE BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS MANAGES THE WILDFIRE FOR TRIBES.

AND I THINK TRIBES ARE IN A PHASE WHERE THEY ARE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO NAVIGATE CULTURAL BURNING THROUGH THE BUREAU AND WHAT THAT MAY MEAN FOR THEM.

AND HOW THEY CAN GO ABOUT ACCOMPLISHING THAT.

SO, IT IS KIND OF A CONUNDRUM IN THE SENSE THERE IS A TRAINING COMPONENT BUT ALSO A CULTURAL COMPONENT AND IT IS UNCLEAR WHAT TRUMPS WHAT OR WHO IS WILLING TO TAKE THAT LEAP AND MAYBE START INCORPORATING SOME OF THESE ACTIONS.

BUT THERE IS SIGNIFICANT MOVEMENT TOWARDS THAT AND WE ARE TRYING TO FACILITATE THAT WITH OUR PARTNERS IN HOWEVER WAY WE CAN WITHIN OUR AUTHORITIES AND WITHIN OUR FUNDING OPPORTUNITIES THAT WE OFFER AS WELL.

>> Laura: SO, LOTS OF PEOPLE LIVE IN PLACES THAT ARE VULNERABLE TO FIRE.

THAT IS LIKE IN NEW MEXICO, THAT IS VERY, VERY OLD COMMUNITIES AND IT IS ALSO NEW DEVELOPMENT INTO THE WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE.

AND AS WE SEE INSURANCE COMPANIES PULL BACK, AS WE SEE FORESTS GETTING HOTTER AND DRYER, ARE FORESTS A PLACE THAT HUMANS IN NEW MEXICO CAN CONTINUE TO LIVE INTO THE FUTURE?

WE'LL START WITH YOU, LINDSEY.

>> Quam: I THINK THERE IS AN INTERESTING DYNAMIC IN SOME OF THAT WHERE WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE MOVING FROM OTHER PLACES INTO NEW MEXICO AND A LOT OF MY UNDERSTANDING OF WHY IS THEY LIKE THE LANDSCAPE.

THEY LIKE BEING OUT IN THE WOODS.

THAT IS WHY THEY BOUGHT THE PROPERTY.

THAT IS WHY THEY WANT TO LIVE CLOSE TO FORESTS.

AND SO THEY CAN SOMETIMES NOT MAYBE NECESSARILY UNDERSTAND ALL THE HAZARDS OR IMPACTS THAT MAY COME WITH LIVING IN THE WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE AREA AND THAT INTERMIXING OR INTERFACING WITH THE FOREST COMPONENT.

AND SOMETIMES THAT IS HARD TO CONTEND AGAINST BECAUSE WHEREVER THEY MAY COME FROM, WHATEVER STATE, THEY MAY HAVE DIFFERENT LAWS, DIFFERENT POLICIES, DIFFERENT RULES AND THEY SOMETIMES BRING THAT WITH THEM AND THAT IS SOMETIMES HARD TO CONTEND AGAINST IN TERMS OF EDUCATION AND OUTREACH.

BUT, IT REALLY STARTS WITH, I THINK, AMBASSADORS, AS WELL, AT THESE COMMUNITIES.

AND IF YOU CAN GET STRONG AMBASSADORS TO ENCOURAGE HOMEOWNERS TO DO SOMETHING, DEFENSIBLE SPACE, HOME HARDENING, FIRE-WISE TYPE TACTICS AND TECHNIQUES, THEN I THINK THAT CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN LIVING IN AN INTERFACE.

BUT I THINK IT REALLY STARTS AGAIN WITH EDUCATION AND COMMUNICATION WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THESE COMMUNITIES.

AND I DON'T THINK THERE IS NECESSARILY AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE IMPACT FROM SOME COMMUNITIES BECAUSE MAYBE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN TO THEM, IT HAPPENED IN ANOTHER PLACE.

AND THEY CAN EMPATHIZE BUT THEY DIDN'T EXPERIENCE IT SO THEY MAY NOT NECESSARILY UNDERSTAND WHY THAT COMMUNITY IS AN UPROAR OR WHY THERE MIGHT BE THAT ANIMOSITY AGAINST, YOU KNOW, FIRES OR PRESCRIBED BURNING AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T EXPERIENCE WHAT OTHERS MAY HAVE EXPERIENCED.

I AM SURE LAURA CAN ELABORATE MORE ON THAT.

>> McCarthy: WELL, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE SETTLEMENT PATTERNS UP TO ABOUT 100 YEARS AGO IT WAS ALWAYS HOMES IN THE VALLEYS AND ALMOST ALWAYS SURROUNDED BY FIELDS.

AND THAT IN AND OF ITSELF IS GOOD FIRE PROTECTION AS WELL WHEN OUR RIPARIAN AREAS OR STREAM AREAS ARE FUNCTIONING WELL, AND THERE IS WATER IN THE STREAMS, THEN THERE IS ALSO WATER KIND OF IN THE VALLEY BOTTOMS THAT IS BEING HELD THROUGH MOST OF THE SUMMER, WHICH MEANS THAT YOU HAVE GOT KIND OF A NATURAL PATTERN OF FIRE BREAKS ACROSS OUR FORESTED AREAS OF NEW MEXICO.

AND WE HAVE DISRUPTED THAT BOTH BY DEGRADING THE STREAMS SO THAT THEY ARE DRY IN THE SUMMER, WHICH MEANS THAT ALL THE MOISTURE HAS DRAINED OUT OF THE MARSH LANDS.

SO IT IS NOT GOING TO ACT LIKE A FIRE BREAK ANYMORE AND THEN, AS LINDSEY DESCRIBED, WITH MORE DEVELOPMENT, PEOPLE ARE BUILDING NOT JUST IN THE VALLEYS BUT UP IN THE FORESTS AND IT IS LOVELY UNTIL IT IS NOT.

SO, WITH THE RECENT INFORMATION AROUND THE CHALLENGES OF GETTING PROPERTY INSURANCE IN SOME PARTS OF NEW MEXICO, WE HAVE BEEN HAVING SOME REALLY INTERESTING CONVERSATIONS WITH THE OFFICE OF THE SUPERINTENDENT OF INSURANCE AND WITH SOME OF THE RESEARCH INSTITUTES THAT SUPPORT THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY.

AND, THE TAKEAWAY IS THAT, YES, THE HOME HARDENING IS REALLY IMPORTANT AND HOME HARDENING MEANS THINGS LIKE MAKING SURE THAT EMBERS CAN'T GET UNDER YOUR EAVES OR IF YOU HAVE A WOOD DECK OR A WOOD PILE UP AGAINST YOUR HOUSE, OR MAYBE A WOODEN FENCE THAT LEADS TO YOUR HOUSE, TAKING CARE TO PUT A FIVE-FOOT BREAK IN THERE, SO THAT, YOU KNOW, SAY YOUR FENCE ISN'T ACTING LIKE A WICK TO BRING FIRE RIGHT INTO YOUR HOME.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT HOMEOWNERS CAN DO AND THERE ARE A TON OF RESOURCES ONLINE.

BUT WHAT IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED FROM THE WIND DRIVEN WILDFIRES OR WHAT THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY HAS LEARNED FROM THE WIND DRIVEN WILDFIRES IS THAT NEIGHBORHOOD SCALE ACTION IS WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT AND WHAT HAS THE HIGHEST PROBABILITY OF ALTERING FIRE BEHAVIOR.

AND IT IS CHALLENGING TO GET NEIGHBORS TO ACT TOGETHER.

AND WHEN I ASKED THE INSURANCE -- REALLY THE PRESIDENT OF THIS RESEARCH INSTITUTE, WELL, WHAT IS THE POLICY FIX?

HE DIDN'T HAVE AN ANSWER.

HE SAID THAT IS YET TO BE INVENTED.

SO, WE ARE TRYING TO WRAP OUR HEADS AROUND THAT AND SEE IF WE CAN'T COME UP WITH SOMETHING CREATIVE IN NEW MEXICO THAT WILL INCENTIVIZE NEIGHBORHOOD SCALE ACTION, BUT WE DON'T KNOW YET WHAT THAT IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE.

AND, YOU KNOW, TO LISTENERS, IF YOU LIVE IN A NEIGHBORHOOD THAT IS WOODED AND YOU CAN WORK TOGETHER WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS, YOU REALLY SHOULD BECAUSE THAT COULD BE WHAT SAVES YOUR HOUSE.

>> Laura: WHAT I AM HEARING FROM BOTH OF YOU IS PAYING ATTENTION TO YOUR LANDSCAPE, CARING FOR THE PLACE YOU LIVE AND BEING IN COMMUNITY.

>> McCarthy: THAT IS EXACTLY IT.

>> Laura: EASY FIXES.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.