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- The Wyoming legislature has reached its halfway point, and we're joined today on Capitol Outlook by the leader of the House of Representatives to give us a mid-session update.

We'll also speak to two first-time Wyoming legislators and hear the lively recollections of a longtime legislative reporter who has only recently left the scene.

I'm Steve Peck of Wyoming PBS.

Join us for Capitol Outlook.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] This program is supported in part by a grant from the BNSF Railway Foundation, dedicated to improving the general welfare and quality of life in communities throughout the BNSF Railway service area, proud to support Wyoming PBS.

- [Man] And by the members of Wyoming PBS.

Thank you for your support.

- Welcome to Capitol Outlook.

I'm Steve Peck of Wyoming PBS.

Because of bad weather that's prevented us from traveling to Cheyenne this week, we're recording this week's installment of Capitol Outlook on Zoom.

We're joined today by the speaker of the Wyoming House of Representatives, Representative Albert Sommers of Pinedale.

Representative Sommers, welcome.

One of the key things that's happened so far or this week in the Senate is the beginning of the supplemental budget process.

It's a big effort.

It takes up a huge portion of the session particularly here between now and the end of the scheduled session.

Here's a question that's obvious to you, but I'm gonna ask it for our viewers.

We just passed a big biannual budget last year, didn't we?

Why are we doing this again?

- So, Steve, thanks for asking that question.

Really why we've done and we always do this, our revenue projections in the state of Wyoming, they change every year.

And so we have a really good staff, Wyoming does, of people that the CREG, the Consensus Revenue Estimating Group, they estimate our revenues.

But as those revenues change, so does our need for a re-look at the budget during the supplemental.

Also on the agency side or the university side or the court side, things pop up, right?

Needs pop up, different things happen.

And so we take, I would say, a modest review of the budget.

And most supplemental budgets we take a modest review.

Now two years ago when we were in a supplemental budget, we were having significant financial challenges.

Our CREG analysis had shown a significant drop in revenues and we had to make severe cuts in the budget just to make sure that we could bankroll the state of Wyoming.

So it's really about what our revenues are doing and what the needs are in agencies and the courts.

- Remind viewers what the revenue situation was just a couple of years ago or at least believed to be at the time.

- Okay, it's really funny, if you go back to May of 2020, let's go back a little more than two years.

- Okay.

- May of 2020, right after COVID hit, we and the nation shut down, the world shut down.

We had a CREG analysis, a CREG process going at that time, and we were over a billion dollars underwater, underwater, in the red.

And so you fast forward to January of 2023 where we're at now and we're, on the general fund side, we're nearly a billion dollars on the black to good, and we're almost a billion dollars on the school foundation side ahead.

And so a number of things have caused that.

High oil prices, high natural gas prices, steady market for coal, and frankly, property tax as residential and other property taxes increased significantly just because of the valuation of property tax.

- [Steve] What factor does this big influx of federal relief funds play in the fiscal profile of the state today?

- The ARPA money we got, the American Recovery Plan Act, the big federal act provided money to the states, and, in fact, allowed us in the 2022 standard budget to basically supplant some money and use federal dollars, for example, in the Department of Corrections.

And the reason was because, and the reason we could supplant had to do kinda with how our revenues have dropped.

So if our revenues have dropped significantly due to the COVID outbreak, then we could use some federal dollars to supplant our own state dollars.

And of course when COVID happened, the oil market tanked because the world was shut down.

And as that tanked, natural gas prices followed to a degree, not as bad, and that resulted in our ability to use federal dollars to supplant state dollars, which added to the surplus we have.

- That's money that challenges the budget-making process, I presume, because you can't count on that federal money being available going forward.

So in using it in budgeting, am I right in saying it tends to be more for one-time expenditures?

- Yeah, so, the big, the big, I guess, run up in oil price and natural gas price, some of that's one time, right?

So what we do is we project out over a number of years these big spikes or federal money that came in, but these big spikes in oil and gas that we know are not gonna be sustained over a period of time.

Those are really onetime monies.

And so as we look at those one time monies, what's the best thing to do with it?

Ultimately as we work through these budgets, we'll save a good portion of that, but we'll also look at some programs that perhaps the Department of Health that need a little help, we'll look at funding for a variety of construction projects, which are one time, not ongoing, so we're able to put workers in Wyoming to work, do some construction projects that are needed, and then ultimately we'll decide how we wanna save money, whether it's in very temporary savings, moderate, middle, I guess, long-term savings or middle-term savings.

- And in terms of the ARPA money itself, that monies will be gone within about a year, is that correct?

- We have, Steve, you're kinda correct.

We have to be able to obligate all of that ARPA money by 2024, but it doesn't have to be spent until sometime in 2026 and I can't remember that exact date.

But a lot of this surplus we have in this supplemental, is really a result of the valuation change in property, so the increased property tax and the spike that occurred in our oil and natural gas.

- One of the issues regarding the ARPA money was whether it had to be spent specifically or whether some of it could be saved.

How has that issue been resolved for Wyoming?

- Well, I kind of mentioned this to you and some of what we actually saved in 2022, but when they put out the ARPA bill, they said, "States, you can use some replacement dollars "for your state government if COVID caused "a significant increase or decrease in your revenues."

So if your revenues in the state dropped, let's say, 200 million as a result of COVID, then you would be able to use some of those ARPA dollars to supplant that loss in revenue that we had because of ARPA.

We've done that.

That mostly played out in the 2022 budget, not so much in the supplemental budget.

And then obviously the spend on the ARPA, it's still being spent.

For example, I just heard recently that it looks like some of the broadband dollars that were released in the ARPA bill, some of them are just now starting to, appears to get approval to establish the program.

So we have to wait for the federal government to finish their guidance set up programs and all of that is taking time as well.

- Yeah, a big part of budgeting obviously is looking ahead.

Even the simple, I don't mean simple in terms of financing, but simply defined by any budget is a projection.

And so you're saying that some of these other funds are being projected out even beyond the next buy-in.

A big part of budgeting in Wyoming has been related to how much to set aside into savings.

You've talked about that as well.

What general positions are taking place in your body during this legislative session regarding spending the money versus saving it?

- So yesterday in second reading, there were house members that brought amendments that put some more money into the budget for things that help their communities.

For example, there was a budget amendment for an additional six million of the Cultural Trust Fund.

There was a budget amendment for the Wildlife Trust Fund.

So that is a means by which we can save some of this one-time money and then use the income off of those trust funds in order to fund specific things for our communities, whether for Wildlife Trust Fund, in that case it's to promote wildlife habitat, promote one of those resources that we really value in the state of Wyoming.

And the Cultural Trust Fund, it's to provide projects that simply, some of it simply helps run our local museums, right?

What's really interesting about both the Cultural Trust Fund and the Wildlife National Resource Trust Fund is they all rely on a lot of match other than just the state money.

So the state money's just a piece of the pie that actually generates a lot of other match and helps communities and wildlife.

And those are some of the things that we look at in the House.

Ultimately the big decisions on how we save large chunks of money, are we gonna save it on this trip?

Are we gonna save it via our Permanent Mineral Trust Fund?

Are we gonna save it to our reserve accounts?

Those all yet to be decided.

We're still working through all of that.

- The difference between those accounts and the reason for these differences in discussion depends on how accessible that money might be in the future and in what areas, right?

- Oh, yeah, totally, when you put money into The Permanent Mineral Trust Fund or the Common School Land account, that account is in violet, and so you can't pull money back out of it.

The good thing about putting money into those accounts is they generate a higher rate of return because we know they're gonna be stable and so they are invested for a higher rate of return.

And so then those big funds then help both the general fund and the school side.

And, in fact, the Permanent Mineral Trust Fund is spinning off 22 to 25% of our revenue statewide.

Likewise, the (indistinct) doesn't provide as much income, but it also helps buoy us in times of, it is a rainy day fund, so in times of tough times, we can rely on it to help fund education and other parts of government.

So it's that balance between those accounts.

And then the reserve accounts, there's a great debate going on that'll occur in House Bill 89, should we create, should we enlarge these reserve accounts that support our permanent accounts to make them get a higher rate of return, be a little more accessible in the long term if we have a real need for those.

So it's really how do we balance these various funds and put which money into it, and that discussion shift the side.

- What's your feeling on the HB 89, for example, as, or do you wanna share one from your position of leadership?

- HB 89, I wanna hear the debate, I wanna hear more about that idea.

I think there's a competing bill out there by a representative from New York that has its own ideas in that bill on how we balance these accounts or which accounts should exist.

And I think it's a good debate to have and I hope we have that.

- I'm glad you mentioned that.

Earlier in our Capitol Outlook season, I asked you and President Driscoll about this in comparing the Wyoming legislative process to the federal process in Congress that we're all so familiar with, those of us who follow that sort of thing, and you get the feeling in Washington that often the positions are already hardened by the time the debate even comes to the floor.

But you told me that in Wyoming that that's not true at all, and you just mentioned a case where you believe that actual floor debate will be decisive in how this particular issue is decided.

- Oh, absolutely.

In Washington, in bigger states, if I was in a big state where you had a legislature that sat all year long, I would have staff analyzing all of these bills for me, perhaps giving me recommendations, not hearing when ol' Albert reads the bill and he decides what he feels is best.

He might go ask the attorneys what it says or the sponsor what it does.

And then you listen to the debate and the debate matters.

And the debate matters at Wyoming.

And I'm glad that we are still at that point.

That's how a democracy, how our republic was designed to work, and I'm really proud of it.

- Let's talk about the budget bill or bills just for a moment in terms of some nuts and bolts.

You begin at the same point, am I right in saying that there's house bill one and senate file one, which begin at the same place, and then the fund begins, so to speak, where each body gets it and the amendments start rolling in.

- Steve, you're right, it's a mirror bill, right?

So the language is exactly the same, but even that is a compromise to get to that point with the House and the Senate.

And so the House and the Senate may, in the appropriations committee, may have different philosophies, so you might see that reflected in budget amendments that come on the floor or by other members.

And then really right now when we're going into second reading and then going into third reading, it's the opportunity for that individual legislator to influence the budget based upon his constituency.

It is so important that we have that ability as a legislator to go in and say, hey, this is important for this constituency, or for this part of the state, or whatever that might be, and then try to get money into that.

Or if you believe, hey, I believe we're overspending in state government here or here, then you can bring commitments like that or you wanna save money in a certain pot.

It's really the process for legislators to really have that debate and to bring their own ideas to the budget.

- I wanna ask you a question I asked Senator Driskill in an earlier show about the atmosphere, the climate of operating with a big surplus as opposed to a big deficit.

I asked him if sometimes it might even be easier just in terms of what you know you have to do and what decisions have to be made when there's a deficit.

So there's really no choice, you know you have to reduce the budget.

As opposed to a surplus when the options may be so numerous that it's hard to know which way to turn sometimes.

- Steve, I think you're absolutely right.

I served on appropriations for two terms and I helped craft three different budgets between those two terms, and the whole time basically we were cutting 900 million general fund regarding those three budgets, which is a lot of money in the state of Wyoming and basically a three billion dollar budget.

And so it is easier because when you gotta cut, you know you gotta cut.

We have a balanced budget amendment.

It's not easy to cut and you find ways to try to protect, like I'd say, the most vulnerable, but you know you have to cut.

When you have a surplus, you know you're gonna save and you know you're gonna perhaps spend some one-time dollars going in certain directions, but it's much harder to decide how to do that, and I think for some of us in the House that's even been there for 10 years, I've never seen a surplus where you could actually decide, "hey, I'd like to save money here, "I'd like to spend a little more money there, "and do this with those dollars."

There's a lot more options on the table and it's a lot harder for appropriations to perhaps defend that budget because they realize this is maybe a once in a 10-year opportunity for legislators to talk, to really influence the budget process.

- Thinking about back on some of the cuts that had to be made in recent years, there were hundreds of state government jobs, and I think the term state government employment is huge in Wyoming.

It doesn't mean, necessarily mean sitting around in an office at the Capitol.

State agencies employ people across the state.

There are more than 500 positions cut as I recall.

Is there a push to restore some of those positions now that there's more money?

- Steve, I don't think the legislature has a big appetite for putting in a lot of positions.

We're putting in some positions in this budget and maybe there'll be some more put in, I'm not sure on amendments, but it's very selected, only when it's needed.

For example, DQ needed some positions that's go-around that are needed, so our industries can be affected.

And so we'll do that, but not wholesale.

I think what we are doing though, because not only have we decreased the number of employees, but we are having a harder time keeping employees and hiring employees.

And so you'll see in this budget where we have, where we have another raise for state employees in this budget, I can't remember the exact percentage, but that'll be in there.

I think both sides pretty much agree on that.

I don't know, I haven't seen.

I'll be honest, I haven't seen what the Senate did in the second reading, but I know the House, from what I've talked to with the members of the House, we're interested in maintaining a raise for state employees.

- Speaking as a state employee, I thank you.

I'm in the room with two other state employees as well.

So good luck with that.

Where does the bill, the budget bill stand now in your body?

- I don't worry too much about the budget bill at any point until the last point when you vote on it at the end.

My job as a leader is to put good people in the right places, to be able to analyze the budget, bring the budget.

We do the debates on the floor.

We'll go into third reading, we'll hear any number of budget amendments from different people, including probably, probably I'll have one.

And then we'll go into a conference committee and hopefully we'll have that debate with the Senate and there'll be give and take I assume in that process.

And hopefully we come out with a product out of the committee that we can support in both bodies.

So that all remains to be seen.

- In terms of where it exists on the calendar now, how many readings has it had in the House as of Thursday this week?

- Yeah, so yesterday we had second reading of the budget.

We won't do, normally by rule, we have to do third reading the following day on normal bills, right?

The day after the second reading.

But there's a rule with a budget that we skip a day, so we won't hear third reading until tomorrow, Friday.

And then by Monday, we'll have analyzed the various positions, and kind of how that works is once we know what each body did in the two readings of budget amendments, then the appropriations committee of the House, for example, will explain to the full House what the Senate did, right?

They'll have what we did, they'll have what the Senate did.

Senate will do the same thing on the Senate side, explain what the House did.

We'll appoint conference committees and we'll begin negotiation between the bodies on the budget.

- Now one of the reasons you are able, you take this day in between is because the budget bill is not the only thing the legislature is working on.

- Oh, yes, we have a full slate of bills in the House.

We have, I don't know how many we now have on general file.

It's a huge list.

I thought we'd get to general file quicker today, but we're still working through amendments on third reading.

And we had a wonderful four ceremony today with our military.

The Wyoming Military Department came in and General Porter came in and brought in some guests and some staff and some military professionals that we got to recognize.

We had a wonderful resolution about a former POW out of Vietnam and he'd recently passed away and a wonderful reminder to the body of the sacrifice of our military and the sacrifice of our POWs over time.

It's really moving, and, yes, it takes time, but it's also an important time to recognize people in Wyoming that are doing really good things for us and our nation.

- Sounds like if you don't keep on exactly the schedule you hope for, this is a good reason not to.

Representative Sommers, Speaker Sommers, thanks for your time today.

I know you're in the middle of your lunch hour and you took time to make available your expertise to Wyoming PBS today and Capitol Outlook.

I hope to hear from you at least once more this session.

Now go get some lunch and get back to work.

Thanks for being with us on Capitol Outlook.

- Thank you, Steve.

It's a pleasure.

- Coming up, we'll meet with two first time Wyoming legislators, each experiencing her first session at the Capitol.

Stay with us for Capitol Outlook.

(upbeat music) - Welcome back to "Capitol Outlook."

I'm Steve Peck of Wyoming PBS.

This session of the Wyoming legislature has more new lawmakers taking seats at the Capitol than at any time in modern memory.

In the Wyoming House alone, nearly half the body comprises first-session lawmakers elected only last November.

There can be some steep hills to climb for legislative rookies, but every lawmaker goes through it in that first session.

We're joined today by two of those lawmakers, Senator Evie Brennan of Cheyenne, Representative Martha Lawley of Worland.

Welcome to you both.

Senator Brennan, you represent Senate District 31.

And before this year, Senate District 31 did not exist.

There were only 30 senators.

The Senate was expanded due to redistricting related to the 2020 census, and a new district was created in Laramie County.

Where do the people live, that you represent for the most part?

- Yeah.

So my constituent is based in southeast Cheyenne.

When the district was created, you learned about it.

What made you think, "It's time for me to try to be a legislator"?

What went into that decision process for you?

- Great question.

So last February, actually, my daughter and I...

I have four kids, but I brought my oldest daughter young.

She was 9 years old at the time.

I said, "You need to see how government works."

So I said, "We're gonna go down to the Capitol, we're gonna watch some votes take place, and we're just gonna go experience government as it is."

Well, the long story made short, is, that got me thinking about running for the state legislature.

I noticed the lack of representation of moms with young kids in the legislature.

And so I just started thinking about it.

I started asking questions of people who had been in the legislature, finding out what it would be like, if I could even possibly do it with four kids.

And then I just decided that it was time to jump in, and at the same time found out that I was in this area where this new district was created.

So it was a good opportunity all the way around for me just to get involved.

- What was the primary election process like for you?

Did you have opposition for the seat?

- I did have opposition for the seat.

There was somebody else who ran against me in the primary, but I had strong backing and a good support, and just worked really hard to let the people know, "Hey, this is who I am.

This is what you're gonna get."

And just ask for their votes.

- And you succeeded and here you are.

Representative Lawley, your district is one of these big ones geographically that represents lots of what we might call, unincorporated population, rural population.

Tell us about your district.

- Well, I'm from District 27, and District 27 encompasses all of Washington County.

And as you said, it's a rural district, a big district, and also encompasses part of southern Big Horn County as well as Washington County.

And so that would include part of the town of Basin, Hyattville, and Manderson area, that part of Big Horn County.

So those increased slightly during the redistricting to connect few more streets in Basin.

So that's the area, and it is a more rural area.

- What challenges do you see that arise from representing people from such a big area, including area where you don't live yourself?

- Well, I live in Worland, which is pretty centrally located in the district, you know?

So I try...

In that way, it's not that far to the different areas of population within the district, and it's a pretty homogeneous group.

But I think the challenge is that the place is just deemed as a rural district.

There's a lot of kind of working together of other districts in the Big Horn, Basin, because we share a lot of some of the same challenges being a rural district.

There are a lot of issues that come before the legislature that may look differently in a rural district.

And it's really important that we have a voice about how that would affect our area differently than the more populated areas.

You'd had a long career as an attorney, I believe, before now.

What led you to take the plunge into seeking elected office?

- Well, I had a little bit different road than Evie did.

Interesting enough, I was a political science major at the University of Wyoming, graduated there, and then I went on to law school at Baylor Law School and end up practicing law in Houston, Texas for a number of years as a business litigator.

But I've always looked at politics as a matter of interest and kind of a hobby, if you will, possibly more focused on a little bit more national issues than statewide issues.

But I've never considered running.

And several people approached me when Mike Greear announced that he was not gonna run.

And my initial reaction, honestly, was to laugh and say, "Why would I do that?"

But the more we talked, I really kind of have to lean back on my own sense of civic duty, and the fact that we all have to play a role.

And, you know, my kids, just to tell you kind of a funny story, their friends might ask them about how they can get on jury duty.

And they will quickly tell them, "Do not call and ask my mother about getting on jury duty unless you want an entire lecture about the importance of system participation of our citizen."

(Steve laughs) So, you know, that was the part that compelled me and it was a need, and so I ran, and here I am.

- I wonder if saying, "My mom's a legislator," is an excuse to get out of jury duty.

We'll have to have to check into that now that you're holding office.

- (laughs) I wouldn't advise it.

- Okay.

So you get elected, step one, and it's not an easy step.

I don't mean to suggest that it is.

After the fact, then there's a period of a couple of months from the general election, which is in November, and the general session of the legislature, which is in the odd-numbered years, this is 2023, and it starts almost exactly two months after the general election, the budget session.

Shorter session starts a little later than that.

What sort of preparation did you make between election day and being sworn in, and what preparation, training, orientation were you required to make?

Senator Brennan, let's start with you on that.

- Well, yeah, that's a great question.

Our legislative service office provided several days of training, which was helpful.

It was also a good time getting to know other legislators and...

So I'm gonna start on, I'm working out like, what might come in... What pieces of legislation you might see and might've seen.

And then for me, as a mom of four young kids, what was important, we went into holiday season and what I call birthday season at my house.

And so one of the preparations that I did was to spend time with my family, and make sure that we had some really good, solid family time in, before I knew that we were gonna go into this season of kind of my husband being a single parent, me kind of being there to wake up and say, "Hi, I love you kids," before they're off for the day and come home at night and, you know, give them a hug as they're going to bed.

So for me, that was one of my pieces Is just making sure that I was grounded with my priorities before I headed into this legislative season.

- Do you think that if you lived in Worland, for example, where representative Lawley's from, it would've altered your decision on whether to seek the office?

- I think it would have.

I think one of the reasons that I did well was because it was here in Cheyenne, that I can go home, and that I can tuck my kids into bed.

And that was something, I think, that played into me, being able to say "Yes" to this.

- Now some lawmakers from farther-flung points I know come to Cheyenne and often stay for the entire two months.

So at least that's the...

It's difficult not to do it that way sometimes, especially in the winter, like we're having today, where travel becomes more difficult.

Representative Lawley, it sounds like this training that you get is not just about procedural processes, and nuts and bolts, and tie downs and so forth, but you get some expectation of what might be coming in terms of legislation as well.

- Yes.

You know, I think I would say that the pandemic has affected so much how the legislature is accessible to the public in terms of the fact that all things were originally recorded during that time, and then they continue that where everything is, you can watch live or you can watch it on YouTube.

And that opens up a door for us that were coming in, to really catch up to speed on a few things.

And so I will say again first that, that resulted in an amazing job.

I've been told that historically, we are the biggest freshman class as the original Wyoming legislature.

So that produced some unique problems in helping us acclimate such a big group.

And LSO did an amazing job not only, as you said, in the structure, and the rules, and how this works, but beginning to understand what our roles would be, and including committees.

And we didn't know at that time which committee specifically we were on, but how the committee would function and what our role would be.

And so I was able to begin to watch some interim work, and I had two specific committees, and was very hopeful to get on those, so I literally watched the interims of both of those committees.

And things like that really helped me get some more subject matter expertise, helped me prepare.

And so, they really opened that door, what was available in terms resources to know and learn.

And so they encouraged us to start thinking about writing a bill, which, to be honest with you, I haven't spent a lot of time.

You know, I would like to say that, you know, I ran (indistinct) both of my races, and I didn't come to Cheyenne with an axe to grind.

I came to Cheyenne with a constituency to represent.

So I didn't have a particular bill in mind.

I did ultimately write a bill, but I really appreciated their encouragement to work through the process and learn the process.

And they helped us through that.

LSO was an incredible asset for legislators.

And so I really felt like they did a great job of helping us and guiding us to other resources that we could take advantage of preparing where we could almost... day one, have some level of effectiveness.

And hopefully we're...

I mean, I hope we're increasing in our effectiveness as every day goes by.

That's certainly our goal.

As it gets, perhaps, for others to judge, but I really did feel like it was such a tremendous effort.

Even leadership has been so good over the House side, to really help those of us who are freshmen to, you know, maybe we're unclear on something, or maybe we make a little misstep here and there, to really graciously kind of help us along.

And I think that's gone a long way to help people grow since we've even been here.

Because there is a certain amount of on-the-job training with this process, so... - I think that continues throughout legislative service no matter how long or short it is.

Senator Brennan, I wanna ask both of you about your committee work here in a moment, but for viewers who might not know what LSO is, what is it?

- LSO stands for Legislative Service Office.

So it's our support.

We don't have our own staff here in the Wyoming, state legislator.

And so what we have then is a nonpartisan, very small staff of people who help us, legislators, get the job done.

- Continuing with you, Senator Brennan, what committees are you serving on in your first term?

- I'm on the Education Committee and then Transportation and Military Affairs.

- Were those committee seats that you were interested in ahead of time?

How did you get placed on a committee?

- So we were sent out... Or I was at least sent out list of kinda what committees do you wanna be on in preferential order.

I had asked for Education and Healthcare, 'cause I'm an ICU nurse.

Those meet at the same time.

And so I ended up with Education Committee, which has been a great experience.

And then Transportation, which I was actually kind of excited about because that gives me an area to really learn and dig into something that I'm not as familiar with, but is very important for our state.

- Yeah, you become experts pretty quickly in things as legislators that you might not have really thought very much about before, but through the committee process, it's necessary and inevitable.

Representative Lawley, what are your committees?

- I'm on Minerals, Business and Economic Development.

- Which is one committee.

- Yes, it is.

It's one committee.

- With a long name.

- And I'm on Education as well.

- Oh.

- And I... Yeah, I did ask for both of those committees.

There are seven days, usually Monday, Wednesday, and Fridays where I think about how busy that has been.

I'm very thankful to be on...

These are both extremely important committees and I...

There's actually some overlap on those two committees that has somewhat surprised me in terms of workforce development and how that business economic development piece overlaps with education and looking to the future to prepare our work force for all ranges of opportunities for the future.

- When we were in Cheyenne a couple of weeks ago, on the day of the state address, I happened to drop in and sit for about an hour watching what may have been your very first committee meeting on the committee with the long name.

And as I recall, that's the Minerals, Business and Economic Development Committee, as I recall.

And one of the initial bills was about trash handling, trash transfer stations, and landfills.

Not exactly a super glamorous topic, but you've realized that you get right down to the nitty-gritty of policy making in the legislature from day one, don't you?

- Yes, very much so.

I actually was privileged to introduce that bill into the House, it's a committee bill, what they call floor managed that, it's called Cease and Transfer bill.

And again, it's a very interesting bill, but it comes up every year.

So most of the people that have been in the legislature previously are very familiar with that bill.

But it really does important work, it really does.

I was excited to get to present that on the floor as my first bill.

- Speaking with both leaders, Senator Driscoll and Speaker Summers, they said that it's important in their view, for first year legislators, to get their feet wet, so to speak.

It sounds like this was the type of a bill that made that easier for you to do.

- Yes, yes.

It gave me the opportunity to manage that process on the floor, to present the bill, to stand for questions on the bill, and it was kind of an easy one to do in a way.

And so again, I like that encouragement of leadership, and the willingness to kind of give us some things that we can really be successful at, quite frankly.

And as we work through the process, we can learn, but still feel like, we somewhat, were successful, so... - Senator Brennan, on Senate Education Committee, your chairman is someone who's on the opposite end of this, the legislative service timeline from yours.

The chairman is the legendary Senator Charles Scott of Casper.

He's been in the legislature since the 1970s, of the longest serving member in history.

You're in your first year.

What's it been like working with him?

- You know, it's been wonderful working with Senator Scott.

And I have the privilege of actually sitting next to him in the Senate Chambers.

And I feel really privileged that I get to, as a freshman legislator, sit right next to somebody with over 40 years of experience in the legislature, because he really can give a history of where we've come, where we're going.

And it's very valuable for me as a freshman.

- It's I know very useful to be able to find someone you can turn to for just perspective if not the outright guidance.

And he's certainly one that can do that.

Do either of you have a bill that is moving through the procedure now that's still alive as we enter the second half of the session?

- Yes.

My bill actually passed the House today.

It's House Bill 121.

It's an amendment to the current property tax deferral statute.

So it's a relief bill, and I'd be happy to talk to you if you want a description of the bill.

What it really does is, it takes the current property tax deferment program, which only one county is actually using, which is Teton County.

Because the other counties haven't stood it up, and it raises it out of the county level and up into the Department of Revenue to be managed by them.

And the state would bear the burden financially of the deferment as well as administratively, and then reimburse the counties for any deferments that are given.

And a tax deferment is different than a tax refund.

In that a deferment is an agreement to withhold collection of a tax.

All were part of tax.

And so the program was already there.

It's been there for many years, but not utilized.

Except recently with Teton County, they've had... it's been used in Teton County.

So it's offering that relief, I think, in a more functional way to citizens of our state that could use it to get some property tax relief, but ultimately the tax will be collected.

- Senator Brennan, you mentioned that you're a healthcare professional, and I know that your name was on a bill related to a hot topic in the legislature this year and the past couple years, mental health.

Tell us about that bill that you co-sponsored.

- Yeah, so I had a bill that was a pilot program for telehealth in K through 12.

I'm gonna look a little bit more at this idea and thought through the interim, because I think there's a lot of good things, and I wanna actually explore it a little bit more during the interim, so... And there was other bills as I looked at what we're doing and where we're going.

I think there was some other bills that kind of had higher priority, so were gonna- - I think Speaker Summers mentioned that there's more than...

I think he said more than 500 bills to be dealt with in one way or the other in this session.

And it's not at all uncommon for a bill to be sounded out in one session, studied for an interim, and brought back again.

I'm assuming that's what you'll hope could happen with your bill.

- Yeah, and I think we get some better pieces of legislation sometimes, when we kinda put ideas out there, and then we can kinda get some feedback and then look at them in the interim.

Well, we're halfway through your first legislative session.

Happy with your decision to seat the office so far, Representative Lawley?

- Yes.

I am.

I still feel like I'm getting my feet under me, but, you know, it really is a great privilege and honor to be here.

To really have a voice in development of good public policy.

To have important debates that we need to be having in Wyoming on important issues.

And so I am happy I'm here.

As I began skeptic in terms of running, and even if whether I could be effective, but my goal has been to be effective, and I hope that I have been, I hope my constituents feel I have been, and, you know, I hope to even on the other side, help them understand, process the information available to them.

That's a really important goal for me, is to help them see what we have here in Wyoming in terms of access to what's happening, and education about bills, and listening to the hearings and things like that.

Where they really understand these bills a little bit better than maybe some small brief snippet they're getting across their email or text.

And they can too participate more fully and process.

So I'm happy to be here.

- Senator Brennan, pleased with the progress you've made and the experience of the session so far?

- Yeah, I am.

I'm glad that I chose to run.

When I decided to run, I did it...

If I was gonna run, it was gonna be for my kids.

And if I wasn't gonna run, it was gonna be for my kids.

And I knew that if I got to in my life, and Wyoming wasn't better or at least preserved like my grandparents had done for me, that I would regret it.

And so when I go home at night, and I look at my four kids, I know that I made the right decision.

- Can't think of a better justification for seeking and holding, serving in public office than that.

I wanna thank you both.

I think the perspective that you bring as first-year lawmakers is important, enlightening, interesting.

And I appreciate your participation today.

Representative Martha Lawley from Worland, Senator Evie Brennan from Cheyenne, thanks for being with us on "Capital Outlook."

- Thank you.

- Thank you for having us.

- Thank you so much.

(upbeat music) - Continuing now with Capitol Outlook.

Thanks for staying with us.

This year at the Wyoming legislature, one of the most familiar reportorial voices and faces, is no longer here.

For the first time since the 1980's, reporter Bob Beck of Wyoming Public Radio is not covering the legislature in Cheyenne.

He retired last fall as the news director for that station and he now lives in New York State.

Before he left, Bob joined me for an interview last fall for our Wyoming Chronicle series.

Here, including a portion of the interview never aired before, Bob Beck recalls earlier, often colorful times, covering the state capital.

- One of the reasons I wanted this job, so in '85 I had an opportunity to go cover the legislature for a couple of things.

The Wyoming Territorial Prison was a bill, there were budget cuts at the university.

And so I went over probably 15, 20 times that year and actually for some stupid reason, really enjoyed it.

It was just fun, and it was the best thing going on in the state.

It was the most interesting thing.

And I got to know Ed Herschler a little bit that year and so and then covered the 86 campaign, which was a lot of fun, because that was when Pete Simpson faced off against Mike Sullivan.

But it was Pete Simpson and every Republican big shot in the state, running for that big primary- - big primary that year.

Yeah, and I always think back on Bill Budd who, maybe didn't win the election, but became Governor later in C.J.

Box novels.

So, I always thought that was interesting, but good work by C.J, helping his pal out.

But I think that that maybe inspired me a little bit more in politics too, to do some more things.

And so I was interested in maybe continuing that, and they said, okay, and I've gone most every day, ever since then and left, unless the roads scare me.

- Well, I think it's safe to say, that you must be one of the two or three most expert observers of the legislature in Wyoming.

There's no other way to put it.

I know a lot about it, but I barely hold a tiny candle to you, because you've been there, you've seen it, you've met the people.

You've consistently follow the issues from one session to the next, from one administration to the next.

And you become an authority, don't you?

- Yeah, you do.

And it's, you know, Joan Barron, is always gonna be the one at the top, as far as I'm concerned.

But there were a few of us that covered it a lot of years.

Jim Angell, who just recently passed away, was one of those too.

But, yeah, for consistency, it was Joan and myself.

It's different though.

I'll tell you what, there was, it was harder to cover it back then because we didn't have the website.

You didn't have the background information.

- If you wanted to know what was going on at the committee meeting- - Yeah, - You had to go, - You had to go, and you couldn't Google other people's stories.

I mean, you had to go to the library, and maybe look at them for background, and, and so, it was, I'm sure I made a bunch of mistakes back then, but it was a lot of fun.

There were some real characters in the legislature when I first started.

- Who stands out in your memory?

Who are a couple of them?

- Well, I like to, you know, I really liked... Dave Nicholas actually, who was, who ran for governor.

He was actually a mentor of mine.

He was the senator from here in Albany County and later led NATO for the US.

And then was just a really smart and interesting guy.

You know, Rick Tempest was one of my favorite people but I'm trying to think of the representative, Budd, from Pinedale, Dan Budd.

Who was about as funny a character as we've ever had.

And he would go into these rants on the floor.

And Clarene Law was also a really fun person to talk to.

And, you know, Eli Bebout was starting back then.

Hank Coe was starting, John Perry.

I mean, we had some really great people.

Charlie Scott was still there.

(laughs) As he is now, he's gonna outlast me.

I thought I could at least hang in there until he was done.

But not, but yeah, it was just a lot of- Teense Wilford, just, there was a mix of characters, and some really, really smart people.

I think back on Ford Bouchard, who later sued the state extremely successfully on school funding.

And he was a democrat.

And John Vinich from Fremont County.

One of the great ones and was just so funny, that dry sense of humor.

Again, Tom Kenison from up in Sheridan.

So just people out, I'll stay here and name 'em all, but just some really interesting people and fun people and good interviews.

And they were always willing to do interviews and be outspoken and throw shots across the bow at their colleagues.

Tom Stroock was another one that I just thought the world of, and he's an individual who's really changed.

He was a very conservative guy when I first met him and was one of the most frightening chairman in the history of the legislature.

(chuckles) He would just snap at people.

And then later, I saw him swing a little left on environmental issues for an oil guy.

That was very surprising.

But I have very fond memories of Tom Stroock just talking politics.

And he had these great connections with Dick Cheney and the Bushes, who we went to college with I think, the first George Bush.

So yeah, it's just really good memories.

- It's an interesting news state.

More interesting than people, who don't live in Wyoming might realize.

There's so many competing interests related to industry, and environment, and land use, and water, and wildlife, and politics altogether.

Great election state, typically.

So there's a lot to cover in Wyoming news considering there's so few people here.

- Well, there is, and different corners of the state present some different things.

Obviously, if you're up in Campbell County you've got all kinds of, and Casper, you've got all kinds of interesting energy stories to cover.

There's a lot of great environmental conflicts to cover in the state.

Wildlife issues, certainly.

And you have to know how to cover a lot of different things.

And I've always thought that I, I've done stories on all those things and I've always thought that it's made me a much more well-rounded individual, because I understand ranching just enough to be dangerous and energy.

And, you know, as I would interview people to work here for us, you know they would come out with certain views on climate change.

And I would explain to them, well, you know, energy is the leading business.

And so if some of these rules are proposed, you could be seeing some communities go away.

So how would you, would you think about that?

And so that's the thing you learn about in Wyoming, is that there's, there's always another side to it.

And you know, you know it's like my basketball coach used to say, for every action there's an opposite and equally effective reaction if you're smart enough to see it.

And you know you have to look at both sides of these energy issues.

You have to- You know.

We've been talking about diversifying the economy since I was in my 20s and it's not happened.

And then it's not going to happen anytime soon.

And so, you know, that's our tax base.

So if you get rid of some of this stuff, you know as we've already seen from time to time, our tax base, substantial, what are we gonna do about that?

And, and I see no interest in the majority party in this state on raising any taxes.

And so this, this is this conflict that is always part of Wyoming, which has made it interesting.

- Thanks again to Bob Beck, and we wish him the best back east.

That's it for this week's Capitol Outlook.

Thanks for watching, and please join us again next week.

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