- Wyoming lawmakers are nearing the finish line at the 67th Wyoming Legislature.

We'll hear from two legislators who are deeply involved in final budget negotiations, along with a high school student who wrote a bill, presented it on the floor, saw it passed into law, and signed by the governor.

Join us for "Capitol Outlook."

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- I'm Steve Peck of Wyoming PBS.

Welcome to "Capitol Outlook."

We're pleased to be joined this morning by two members of the appropriations process.

State Senator Tara Nethercott of Cheyenne.

State Representative Bob Nicholas, also of Cheyenne.

Welcome to you both.

Happy to have you with us on a cold legislative morning, here at the capitol.

You're within House District seven?

- Senate District four.

This year, you're both in the Appropriations Committee.

Representative Nicholas, you chair the house side, correct?

- Yeah.

- Senator Nethercott, this is your first year on appropriations, right?

You chaired judiciary during the last session.

What brought you to the Appropriations Committee?

- That's true.

I chaired Senate judiciary for the last four years and I think it was time for a change, to really understand that next layer of government, how I could be a more effective legislator.

And my leadership asked me to take a look at serving on Appropriations as the Legislature has experienced changes.

So excited for the challenge and to work with Chairman Nicholas.

- How's it been going so far in the new committee and that new emphasis of work?

- There is a learning curve, but I enjoy it immensely.

It does allow me to have a greater understanding of state government and how we can meet the needs for Wyoming.

- I've said this a few times already on the "Capitol Outlook" season this year.

Every session's a budget session now, isn't it?

- In a sense, yeah.

- In a sense, really.

I mean, there's one that's designated for it.

That's not the one we're in now.

There are a lot of other bills besides budget bills and maybe we'll talk about some of those, but especially in a year like this where there's been this huge infusion of federal money coming in, there's been a change in the fiscal fortunes of the state, so to speak, for that reason and others.

So another big round of budgeting and spending and appropriations, just pretty much was inevitable this year, wasn't it?

- Absolutely.

And we put a lot of time and effort into it and fortunately, most of the things that we put together through the interim have come to the fore.

- That wasn't another question I had.

When did it become apparent to you between the end of the last session, which was by definition the budget session and this year, that the money situation was going to be so different and was it in time to get a lot of work done in the interim, which would've been greatly beneficial, obviously.

- So we knew it was on the rise, but we didn't know what those dollars would be, really until October CREG.

But because Appropriations meets in December and we also met in January, we had enough time to kind of put Humpty Dumpty back together again, but it was a lot bigger than he was before.

- You mentioned CREG, that's C R E G, what is that exactly for viewers who might not immediately know?

- It's basically, it's what we do in the Legislature to estimate what our budget will be and how much money we have.

And it goes out six years on a horizon.

And so the CREG in October of 2022, suddenly, literally, almost suddenly, we had a surplus of $800 million on general fund side and $912 million on the school side.

- Which is an unbelievable transformation from where we've been, just a couple of years ago, right?

- Literally, 2021, we had a deficit on the school side of $330 million.

And if you go back to May of the prior year, our deficit was $800 million on the general fund side and $900 million on the school side.

- So great time to get into appropriations, huh?

- It is a wonderful time to get into appropriations.

Of course, having served in the Senate for the last seven years, been through the ups and the downs and voting on some of those budget cuts we've had to do.

But I think as Chairman Nicholas pointed out, you can see that volatility of our revenue stream.

So in 2021, we had a deficit and now we have this surplus.

And I think that really demonstrates the need to have a very active and flexible and responsive joint Appropriations Committee that is evaluating these changes in our economy on a regular and annual basis, so we're able to pivot and make appropriate accommodations to our budget.

- Going back to CREG for a minute, C R E G, the Consensus Revenue Estimating Group, and I'm not, I would be happy to have a member of that entity on the show at some point.

Who's on that group?

- So you have a member of the Legislative Service Office.

You have the Chief Fiscal Officer of the State of Wyoming, you have the Financial Advisor in the governor's office.

- [Steve] Are there legislators on it?

- No, there's no legislators on it.

There are two members from the University of Wyoming.

Economist, the gentleman that does the revenue forecasting for the state, Lynn?

- Dr. Lou?

- Yes, yeah.

- Dr. Lou.

So, I think there's seven people on that committee, I think.

- They're economists and they are studying and analyzing the past and the present and trying to predict the future.

It's a difficult job and they would be the first to acknowledge, they, looking years ahead of time, they don't get that right all the time.

But it's the best we have and it's what Legislature needs to make its decisions based on, is that a matter of law or just a practice that's come into play now?

- So it was practice.

But just about, I think two years ago, we put it into the green books to establish the CREG.

And remarkably, if you go back 20 years, they're within 5%.

The only time not, there was like, there was two equations when we had the fall in 2008-9, and when COVID hit, but otherwise, it's remarkable how close they've been accurate.

- My observation has been, typically, when they don't quite hit the mark, it tends to be they've underestimated just a little bit and so that it makes the legislator's job easier.

Is it harder to be an Appropriations legislator, so to speak, when there's a lot of extra money or when there's a big deficit?

I mean, we can see sort of what the difference is, but is it harder to sift through all the spending options sometimes?

Or is it difficult?

More difficult to think, my gosh, where do we cut next?

- I would say they're equally hard because you always have to pick and choose.

But when, for example, the money we had to do for ARPA and how we passed it out and who got what.

- ARPA again, forgive me, this is the newsman in me coming out.

Referring to this federal relief funds that came.

- Yeah, the COVID dollars, essentially.

Roughly $1.09 billion.

But, in our supplemental budget, you have to decide who gets what and that's always a hard thing to do.

But it's even harder, as the senator mentioned just a little bit ago, when we were doing cuts two years ago, we'd had step one and step two cuts where we were cutting 15% of the budget and cutting employees and positions and that's really hard.

- What's been your approach early in your Appropriations career, so to speak, to the ARPA funds, for example?

- I think to recognize that we have a unique opportunity in Wyoming to avail ourselves of some significant projects.

We know particularly access to healthcare is a challenge for all Wyoming, including in our larger cities to rural Wyoming.

And so really evaluating those entities across our state that are in the best position to maximize these one-time dollars to ensure that Wyomingites have access to healthcare for generations, at least this next generation.

So I feel blessed that we've received these dollars and I'm hopeful that the entities who are receiving these ARPA dollars will be using them wisely to allow for continued increased healthcare access in Wyoming.

- Just before we came on the air, in fact, you two were comparing where the ARPA funding sits right now in the budget finalization, the reconciliation process that's going on now.

The one time aspect is important, isn't it?

- It is.

- This money's not gonna come to us year after year after year.

- It is one time dollars, of course, given to us by the federal government, the American Rescue Plan Act.

And so we know these are one time dollars, the way that they're being expended and the program associated with their dissemination is guided by the US Department of Treasury and of course the federal government.

And so it's very clear to the recipients of these dollars that they are one time funds and they're broader too than healthcare access, it should be noted.

And so a significant amount of those dollars is also going to water development projects and sewer for our cities and towns and counties across the state and other water development projects.

And so important recognition of Wyoming's place as an arid climate.

And our role in this continuing conversation in the west about access to water.

- The healthcare aspect of this session has been something we've talked about on our show several times.

What's been, from the Appropriations angle, some of the discussion about how to use the money for healthcare purposes?

- Well, the primary emphasis on healthcare were ARPA dollars.

We put in $125 million towards strictly healthcare issues, that includes building or upgrading new facilities, 'cause one time dollars for one time things, it's for new facilities, clinics, one in Riverton, but just all over.

And I think the maximum was about $10 million per project.

We put in $125 million into local governments as part of the ARPA process.

We put over a hundred million dollars in broadband.

But on the healthcare side, our focus was one time dollars to improve the quality healthcare across Wyoming.

And part of the broadband component was to be able to do telehealth more efficient and faster.

- That's a huge advancement in just very recent years.

The access to qualified health advice and even treatment sometimes remotely, correct?

- Very important for rural Wyoming, right?

To be able to access some of the country's best healthcare providers, whether in-state or out of state, to be able to reach those with the technology we have now is so important.

And so developing that broadband infrastructure is critical to that.

So again, I think an appropriate use of those ARPA dollars and grateful to be able to have the opportunity to build out those projects.

- We're to the point in the session now where we are conferencing on bills.

That one bill passed the House, gets sent to the Senate.

Where the Senate hears it, thinks about it, might pass it, probably will change it.

What happens when the two can't agree?

This is when the conference committee becomes a huge part of the session when a month ago the conference committees really didn't even exist yet.

- Well, two things generally can happen.

If a conference committee fails, then another conference committee is selected, maybe with different legislators involved in order to go back and try again.

Or a bill may die as a result of a failure to reach consensus.

And so those are really the two options, generally, and most often, you see consensus reached and compromised achieved and that's the overarching result.

But it is possible and it does happen, that bills do die.

- I watched some of this during the floor debates this week, and here's, I'm trying to understand it better myself.

The bill comes over, it gets amended and it gets sent back.

It's not always the case that there's a concurrent House bill and a concurrent Senate bill, right?

It's sometimes it's the one body looking at the other body's bill.

When it doesn't reach consensus immediately, and there is another conference committee set, how is that determination made?

Well, let's just let this die or no, let's try it again with a different committee?

Is is that up to leadership or?

- So it's up to the Speaker or the President to appoint a conference committee.

So on occasion they choose not to.

But if they do choose one, then on a second conference committee it opens up the bill to, you can go outside the differences of the two parties.

On the first conference committee, you have to stay within the two positions.

If you have an open conference committee, you can go outside the differences to find a resolution, to see if you can come to a consensus.

- Are you on conference committees this session so far?

Either one of you?

- Yes.

In fact, we both were on the conference committee for the joint budget.

And so we were on the conference committee to achieve consensus on the supplemental budget bill, which we did achieve and was passed.

And so waiting for the governor's signature.

- That's my next question.

How did that go?

My observation on that bill was that when you got to conference, there wasn't that much difference between the two bills, dollar-wise, compared to some other years where there'd been these vast chasms to cross.

- I would say that, I've been on Appropriations for almost 10 years, this was the easiest budgetary conference that I've been on.

- How did you resolve the relatively small issue?

Did it take one meeting, did it take all afternoon?

Did it take a couple of days?

What was that process like?

- Go ahead.

- Well, I think it's important to recognize that these positions are known well before the budget is crafted, even in the session.

And so these conversations are occurring with members of the joint Appropriations Committee and leadership throughout the year.

And we certainly know different legislators' positions on fiscal policy for the state.

And so how that comes to fruition is always different each year.

But there's a general understanding of those different viewpoints even before conference committee is appointed.

And those conversations, again, continue to occur and sometimes positions are created in each budget from the House and the Senate's position as a strategic negotiating position.

And so that is something to understand as well, that those positions are identified knowing that they will be compromised at some level and they're not actually a reflection of each chamber's true and result anticipated position, knowing that the budget bill will go to a conference and compromise achieved.

Practically speaking, about half the House comprises legislators who hadn't been here before.

There was a lot of discussion about, I don't know if the word would be a backlog or at least a slowdown in the process.

A lot of it attributed to the fact that some of these new lawmakers are sort of getting their bearings.

How important was that and how did you, as a senior member of the House, help deal with it?

- Well, I listened.

There was a lot more debate on bills that were more ideologically driven and everyone, they're learning what to say, how to say it and the value of words in terms of getting a bill passed or getting a position presented.

So they grew over time.

We got a little bit faster over time, but we left about 45 or 50 bills in the drawer because we're spending too much time on individual bills, but that's a learning process and it's happened before and it'll happen again.

So overall, I think they're getting better and better, the freshman folks.

There's a different atmosphere in the House now than there's been in the past because the Freedom Caucus is strong and they work hard, they do their homework and they work as a team.

And so it's a dynamic that we all have to, that we're all working for, to make Wyoming a better place and we're doing, everyone does their part in it.

- Speaking of bills that might have been left in the drawer.

And I don't know that I'm accurate in this.

I know you had a bill that was very, very long and lots of administrative detail in it, went on for some pages and I think I've recognized it when I'm looking at that, that bill didn't survive the committee of the whole, is that right?

- Yeah.

You're talking about the restructure of the ETS.

- Yeah.

So big bill, lots of stuff to sift through.

Was part of the reason that it isn't alive anymore because of some of these factors that you're talking about?

It was just a lot to work through and you didn't have time to do it or how does something like that happen?

- That was a bill that showed up on the last day of possibilities of having a bill.

It was a request from the chief executive office because he wanted to restructure the ETS.

- So you said, "I'll give it a try."

- Yeah, I think on the Senate side, that was a product of they've got a lot of new members there and having the confidence to know whether or not it's a good idea or not and fully understand a 65 page bill is not an easy thing to do.

But I'm hoping it might come back up one more time.

- Well, I mean this bill like that is proposed for a reason, several reasons, from looking at it.

So the sort of thing that could live for another day.

- Yeah.

- Every legislator has this happen.

Correct?

You had new a half dozen bills sponsored this year.

How are they all doing?

- I sponsored seven bills, which is the maximum amount a senator can sponsor.

I allowed one bill to die in committee to allow the stakeholders an opportunity to continue a conversation.

And the other six bills are still in process.

I think three have been signed and so underway as we still have another week left in this session.

- When a bill of yours doesn't pass or you decide, "Well, I'll park it" as Senator Landon termed it the other day, is that a hard thing to do?

Do you feel terribly disappointed about it?

Or that's by now you've learned, look, this is just the name of the game and sometimes it happens?

- It certainly depends on the process and what has occurred.

But generally at this point, I think in both of our experiences, it is part of the name of the game and come back and try it again next year if it's important to you.

And oftentimes good legislation takes years to pass in order to get that broad-based consensus and that's not a bad thing.

- For example, of the seven that you've said you sponsored, how many of those, had you sponsored any of them in a previous session?

- No.

I actually intentionally chose some pretty easy bills to do, some simple bills knowing that we had major change in the Legislature and that there would be an uphill approach to that just as a result of the major change.

And so, focused on some pretty simple concepts there and some statutory changes that needed to be made just for updates.

A couple policy questions, certainly for the body to consider, but I felt pretty easy to move through this changed Legislature.

- Has any of them been referred to a conference committee?

Are they simple enough that for the most part they've been allowed to stand?

- One was sent to a conference.

Well, one was amended on the House side and I reviewed those amendments and concurred with them and asked the Senate to concur with those changes.

And so no conference committee was assigned because we were able to agree to those changes without a committee.

- You talked about the budget bill, but what we learn in watching the session is there's more than one bill that goes into what becomes the state budget.

So what other Appropriations legislation is still to be resolved here with about a week to go in this session?

- So on the Cap Con bill, capitol construction, is still out.

The ARPA bill that we talked about earlier is still out.

That will go to a conference committee today.

I think the local governments bill is also still out, that's the direct payments to local governments.

There's not a lot of issues with that, it just hasn't come out yet.

That's really three out of the four bills that are still out.

- Referring to the ARPA bill that's going to be conferenced, this is money that we need to spend.

So the decision, the debate is not, well, we're just not gonna appropriate that money.

It's already here.

So the discussion is what to do with it.

- Yeah.

And I think we're probably about $15 or $16 million difference right now.

So it should not be that big of a difficulty to resolve it.

- Some of that money can be set aside and saved, so to speak.

That's permissible?

- Under our, typically, it has to be spent by 2026.

So most of ARPA was appropriated last year.

We only had held back about $27 million plus reversions.

So the ARPA bill, this ARPA bill, really only deals with about $31 million.

- And those dollars cannot be saved.

So, like much of the budget that we have done in the supplemental budget, is we've taken those revenues that you heard Chairman Nicholas speak about, and we place those into savings.

But those are not ARPA dollars.

Those ARPA dollars do need to be spent and appropriated pursuant to the rules by the federal government on those dollars.

But our revenues, that the state has earned, those have been placed into savings.

- That's always a point of discussion, not necessarily furious discussion, but it's been established for a long time now that Wyoming wants to set aside and bank a significant amount of money in case one of these terrible downturns and deficits occurs again.

And also just so that the income earned from these savings accounts, and I'm using a very simplistic term, can be put to use.

And now it's become a huge part of the annual appropriations budgeting process, isn't it?

Without it, we'd be having to make much more difficult decisions.

Is that fair to say?

- Absolutely.

And let me just kinda walk through what we did and Tara was part of this because this happened through our capitol Finance Committee, which is kind of a select committee similar to Appropriations through the interim.

But we had an overall surplus of about $1.76 billion that we then, through Capitol Finance, Cap Fin, we call it, and Appropriations, we decided what to do with that money and how it was gonna work.

And eventually what we did, we put $735 million, half into the Permanent Mineral Trust Fund and half into the common school accounts.

Last year we put 150 million in those two accounts.

So over the course of the last year and a half, we've almost put a billion dollars in savings into those accounts.

And if you go back just three years, that account has gone from 8 billion, the Permanent Mineral Trust Fund, from 8 billion to 10 billion, literally in the course of two and a half years, two years.

And the common schools has gone from 4 billion to 5 billion.

In addition to that, what we did was, our major emphasis in Cap Fin this last summer and fall was to develop a mechanism that we could start saving more of our reserve accounts.

So we expanded those reserve accounts.

So it's five times, basically, the spending policy of those accounts.

And by doing so, we were able to, and because we had these surplus dollars, we added roughly $353 million on the school side and $274 million on the permanent fund side.

So 500 and roughly 620 million all told to increase those reserve accounts.

So now we take those reserve accounts and we can invest them in a long-term investment.

And what our investment advisors have told us, is had we done this five years ago, we would be roughly $600 million to the greater, had we done it five years ago.

And so this whole concept is we've probably increased our ability not to have to raise taxes and to continue the ongoing finances of government to the tune of between $120 to $130 million a year over the next five years.

So it was really a big lift, but we got it done.

- I happened to be speaking with former Governor Freudenthal just yesterday, and he's written a book about the dawn of the severance tax, the Permanent Mineral Trust Fund, and the opportunity to begin saving money at levels that hadn't been done before.

Interestingly, he said the projections at the time, and this was back around 1970, so a long time ago, was that by about where we are now, maybe we could have $2 billion set aside.

And that was enough motivation for them to think, if that's possible, let's do it.

We're way ahead of that now.

- I am proud of that work and proud of the work of legislators before and executive leadership before who was wise enough to create the Permanent Mineral Trust Fund and recognized the need for us to have an investment account, right, for long term savings for the people of Wyoming.

Recognizing this volatility that we experience and certainly we've experienced these last 10 years.

And so for our ability to continue to save and to watch that fund grow, to continue to withstand those volatile markets is really something that I think the people of Wyoming can be proud of with their lawmakers.

That we can sustain a recession for a period of time.

But the question that we struggle with I think is, is it enough and how long is the potential recession if that does occur or other types of global events that will impact our economy?

And so understanding that duty and that responsibility as stewards of the state's money and for generations, how best to save and how much is enough.

So I think we've struck a balance this year and I'm very proud of that work we've done.

- You also, Senator Nethercott, are involved in what's called the Management Council as well, what is that?

- So a number of years ago, legislative leadership determined that they really needed some type of governing structure of the Legislature, kind of to handle the administrative and HR duties of the Legislature.

So as we know, the elected Legislature has staff members and there's an Legislative Services Office and so they need guidance when salaries need to be adjusted or other types of management decisions need to be made or even expenditures associated with particular legislators for travel and different types of things.

And then also determining interim topics, which is a very important decision of Management Council.

So we'll see here this spring when the committees come together and propose the type of work they'd like to prioritize, Management Council will help prioritize that with them to determine the best work for the people of Wyoming.

- So it's not the most thrilling, headline-grabbing stuff, but extremely important, not just for now, but for sessions to come.

- Keeps the wheels turning.

- Yes.

Now, Representative Nicholas, you have continued to be involved in ongoing work related to the renovation of the capitol itself.

And the committee is called Wayfinding?

Or the effort is called Wayfinding, itself.

- The Wayfinding Committee, yeah.

- What's going on with that and why is that an issue still?

- Well, you know, the work on this capitol will never be done.

It is a work of art.

It's still incomplete.

This room right here that we're sitting in, is not finished.

- You brought that up.

I didn't.

(all laughing) - If you go down, there's no, there's still lots of work that we haven't finished.

We did certain components of the capitol we didn't finish because, basically, we ran out of money and we wanted to get back into this building and not spend more money.

And so the work goes on and as you saw all this, the furniture finally just showed up.

Because of COVID, some of that was back ordered and it took 18 months basically to get the furniture in.

We have acoustics problems, as you know, in here and in the committee rooms.

And so we've retained a company who's come in and has done some testing and we're gonna have to figure out what we can do to improve the acoustics.

Out this door when we come into, where the conference room is and the hallways, we've got some ideas to kind of turn that more into an art, we're taking the art off the long walls and we're gonna redesign that open space to improve that.

But, and we also, well, we've got the visitor center that we're working on, we have to finish out the classroom areas here.

There's two or three offices or rooms in the capitol that still need some work.

So there's still lots of work and we have roughly seven million dollars in an account that we, every year now, we try to put a little bit more into it to continue to upgrade and finish off this building.

- I'm assuming I'm right in thinking that based on what was discovered during the years-long renovation that as you've pointed out, is not complete, but we'll just say has now been completed to a large extent, based on some of the things you discovered during that, it's important to keep up with changes and requirements so that you aren't confronted 50 years from now with some ghastly issue that was overlooked at the time.

So we're gonna be paying more attention now to the condition of the facility.

- It will become more refined over time.

But, it'd be nice to have some nice artwork if you go into the offices, we really don't have any artwork.

And so there's all kinds of different issues and our grounds still need to be perfected.

The flowers, as you may have been here in the summer, it's kind of a hodgepodge and so it's not done in a constructive or professional fashion, so there's just lots of different things we need to do.

- So you conservative Republicans are about more than just storm sewers and manhole covers.

You're talking about grounds keeping and art and flowers and it's all part of the.

- It is the people's house and we recognize that we are stewards of this historical building and want to make sure it's a place of pride for the people of Wyoming and also those that visit our state.

And so I think it's important that we be mindful of the changing needs of the building.

Certainly it will always be the capitol where the legislators come for session and have meetings and hear from the public, but also understand how the public may want to utilize their capitol building and to see it as a service to the people of Wyoming.

To see school children come and to understand our wonderful history here in our great state.

I'm disappointed that there's not a greater section of our capitol devoted to women's suffrage and the right to hold office.

It certainly is acknowledged here in this building, but not in a way that I'd like to see it.

'Cause that's a remarkable history we have to celebrate.

- And we happen to be right at the centennial period of it right now, don't we.

- We certainly are.

And something we should always continue to celebrate regardless of what year it is in light of that history.

It's important and I think important for all of Wyomingites to take pride in.

So this building has a lot of growth to offer for the future of the people and we look forward to working with them and hearing from constituents about how to make the people's house exactly that.

- In the minute or two that we have left, is there a particular outstanding issue, looking to the interim period and that's where committees work between sessions to try to get a headstart on some bills and refine others, particular interim issue that either of you can think of that you would expect to be a big time consumer in the year ahead?

- Well, let me just put it this way.

First thing I wanted to talk about 'cause we really haven't, and that is that we did a $120 million pay raise to state employees, which hasn't happened in the 12 years I've been in the Legislature.

I mean, it was unique and that biennializes into $240 million.

And so the fact is that we can finally afford it and it's amazing, that regardless of our political persuasions on the floor of both bodies, everyone supported it.

We actually still have lots of largess coming our way.

The IIGA has roughly $2.7 billion that may land in this state.

Of that, over 2 billion of that is just infrastructure for highways.

And that's all coming in the next five years.

But 300 million of it is for water projects and 150 million is for airports.

And so we still have a lot of work to do and we have to follow up on the projects that we've got initiated and make sure that we do it right.

Our long-term forecast is that we're gonna be in a surplus probably for another five or six years, but then if you go outside that, it gets a little more gloomy again.

And so we have to prepare for that time.

And so our goal is to continue what we're doing to prepare for when our extractive industries can't provide the largess that it has in the past.

- Senator, what about the interim is on your radar screen?

- Well, as the Chairman indicated, we provided unprecedented amount of raises and salary increases for state employees.

- As a former private sector person, who's now a public employee, thank you.

- You're welcome.

Well-deserved.

And we are grateful to have had the opportunity to make that decision and do it.

We have neglected, though, the retirees of Wyoming who have not received any kind of increased compensation associated with their service to the state.

And I think that's a big challenge that we'll have to tackle here in the coming years.

It's certainly not a new one.

We hear concerns from retirees across our state about this concern.

And as we evaluate the pension fund and understand what options could be made available for retirees, I think it's important that we continue to try to find solutions on that front.

Again, it is a challenge, but I'm hopeful that we can do it.

I know our state university is also gonna be reviewed this interim and I look forward to finding solutions for my alma mater and understand how they can continue to thrive with the meaningful budget process.

- Sounds like there's plenty of reason to keep getting up in the morning.

- Absolutely.

- For you two lawmakers.

I wanna thank you both.

You've got a week to go in the session, good luck.

I know you'll sprint to the finish line with a lot of important things to do.

Senator Nethercott, Representative Nicholas, thanks for being with us on "Capitol Outlook."

- Thank you.

- Thanks, Steve.

Appreciate it.

- Welcome back to "Capitol Outlook."

I'm Steve Peck of Wyoming PBS.

We're joined today by the President of the Senate of the Wyoming Legislature, Senator Ogden Driskell, and a Wyoming Legislative Page this year, Jessee Driskell.

You may have noticed the same last name.

How are you two related, Jessee?

- He's my uncle, so my dad was his younger brother.

- So you're a page this year, What does a page do?

- I do a lot of running for senators and actually, the representatives now.

I started out in the House for the first two weeks of legislation, came back, and now I'm actually in the, or started out in Senate, excuse me, and am now in the House as the page.

So I do a lot of running of messages back and forth off the floor between the lobbyists and the legislators, and then I run copies from the copier to the legislators, trying to just keep it flowing.

- So you're more than just your uncle's personal slave here.

You're helping everybody.

How's she doing, Senator?

- Unbelievable, been here 12 years, she's probably the most workhorse page we've had.

She's back in the House, and then gonna come back to the Senate next week at the request of the Senate, which is interesting.

So I actually didn't bring her.

She came, our Chief Clerk Ellen, picked her at Girls State and informed me that she'd found a wonderful page.

- Girls State.

I heard just yesterday, we were speaking with Governor Freudenthal.

He was talking about having gone to Boys State, something I did a long, long time ago.

You were Girls State.

It's a good thing to be part of, isn't it?

- Yes, it opened a lot of opportunities for me and a lotta doors.

My Girls State bill actually passed the legislature in Girls State and is back in here now, and actually the governor signed my bill.

- Let's hear about that.

What is that bill?

- It was Senate file 122, modifying vehicle registration for out of state work campers.

So essentially, it was already a law that was in place, but it stated that if our work campers were in the state of Wyoming for more than 120 days, they had to register their vehicles through the state of Wyoming.

To do so, for like those RVs, is upwards of three to $5,000.

They don't make that in a summer to come work for us anyways, so we're having a worker shortage, and then they're getting feed for it anyways.

So I changed the 120 days to 180 days to better suit our Wyoming tourism, in hopes that we can get more workers into our state.

- And you didn't have to ramrod this through with using your influence.

It was a good bill that passed.

- So Jessee presented herself front of the deal and did most all of the lobbying on it.

It was, once again, in the House side, was carried by Representative Lolly, who was a Girls State person as well, that asked to present it, did a phenomenal job.

Second bill outta Hewlett High School.

One of my very early ones also came outta Hewlett High School, which by the way, I was a Boys Stater as well, along with Speaker Lubnow, Speaker Sommers, and various other legislators.

So it's obviously, the Girls State and Boys States kind of a grooming ground for legislative leadership.

- Hewlett High School, so here's my question.

Are you on spring break or something or?

- Oh, absolutely not.

- How can you spend all these days at the capitol when you're a high school student?

- My school is very understanding when it comes to these things.

That I'm learning so many things while I'm down here and broadening my horizon in what I get to do, so my teachers are very understanding, and so I do all my schoolwork while I'm down here.

- I suppose the education you're getting in state government, government issues in general, would be at least equal to what you might be getting in your classroom.

Not to belittle the classroom experience at all, but this has to be a grade A education as well.

- Yes, yep, and he's very understanding of that, and I can't thank him enough for that.

- [Steve] What's his name?

- Mr. Willems.

- Mr. Willems.

We're on statewide TV, so here's the chance to say it.

- He actually told me not to call him out like that, but.

- Oh, sorry.

- My bad.

- [Steve] I did it.

Senator, why is it important in your mind to have, it's an incredibly obvious question, but why is it important to have people like Jessee here at the capitol?

- So, when you look to the page and intern programs, both in the Wyoming legislature and nationally, you'll find nearly, I'd guess a high percentage of legislators has been pages or interns, either in the Wyoming legislature or for our congressional delegation.

And it really prepares 'em, the legislature's really a different place, as you know, and the perception of it in the public and what actually happens are so much different, so to have students come or young people come and actually learn the inner workings of it makes 'em more effective when they show up down here as opposed to someone that hasn't been here.

The learning curve's much different for someone like Jessee showin' up than it is for someone else.

- Is this beyond the capability of a Wyoming high school student to grasp, or are you finding, listen, it's work like any other, and it can be learned and it's important to learn?

- Exactly.

They're very understanding when you get here, and they very much tell you how to do it step by step.

So it's really not that complicated in the grand scheme of things, because it's laid out for you just how it's supposed to be done.

And you do it, and then you make the inner workings and the connections of it as well, which makes the experience 10 times better because you get to meet all these particular legislators, that in the end, will help me accomplish great things, whatever I decide to do.

- Partly because you've helped them accomplish things.

We've said this before, it's worth saying again.

You don't have a Chief of Staff and a Press Secretary and a Communications Director, and you have a little bit of staff support.

The LSO supports you when it can, as it can, it does a lotta work.

But having a someone like this willing to do smaller things, I'm assuming would be vital.

- So, it matters incredibly.

There's no way you can accomplish all the things you do, and so we utilize every tool we can, which people in Jessee's position and the others play key roles.

In that end of it is just yesterday I sent her over to the House.

I said, send some messages over there.

'Course it's basically a big mentorship program, and Jessee's highly trusted, so she's got 30 new friends, and once you've established that trust, then she's actually doin' high level executive communications back and forth between the two bodies, 'cause I don't have time to run over to the House while they're in session.

- I said, doing little things.

You wrote a bill, you presented a bill, so it isn't, you're not just making copies, it runs a big gamut as it does for a legislator as well.

How many pages are there this session, do we know?

- Generally, they take the pages one at a time on each side.

Occasionally, there'll be two, and then interns, there's more, and this year's probably as light a year on interns as I've seen.

I generally do one or two interns a session, and I've done none this year.

We didn't have any kids come to us out of the district, and I usually try to bring 'em from inside our district.

And there's less of the interns than I've seen, the pages, obviously, we keep steady.

- Jessee, are you the only page working today, for example, or is there?

- In the House, I'm the only student page.

There is one student page over in the Senate right now.

- Who chooses them?

- In the case of Jessee, it was Ellen, our Chief Clerk.

I get to pick ones, if I want to.

You kinda have preference, Speaker of the House, then it goes on down through the body, and if not, then they kinda default usually to local students here in Cheyenne.

So if there's holes, they'll step up and bring local students.

We also have college pages quite often.

We haven't had this year, but we often do.

Like I say, they're really a critical part of the business.

- You, Senator, the session is still going on.

You're the President of the Senate.

There's the final days of the session.

It's important time for you.

You had to testify, I understand, on a bill earlier today already.

Is that right?

- I did.

I just brought an amendment.

We brought out the Neiman Rodriguez or Rodriguez Neiman abortion bill that's been very controversial, and I brought an amendment onto it.

So it's out on the floor and movin', and yeah, every day, I generally get here somewhere between 6:00 and 6:30 most days.

Generally, don't get outta here till 7:00 or 8:00.

I'm usually one of the last ones to leave.

- This is the crunch time.

How are you managing what's perceived to be a slower procedure than typical on the House side owing to the many, many new members?

You're finding a way to work through that.

- We have, and the House is, I'll pat 'em on the back and give 'em kudos.

They were slow startin'.

They're getting pretty well through the Senate files.

I have great hope they get through.

We're down to around 20 bills left in the Senate.

We're gonna be done early.

That'll leave us some time to do some other business.

But both sides have worked well, it's been a good session.

We've got a couple key bills left, the capital construction bill, Cap Con, hopefully, moves out of the House Appropriations today and gets on the floor, and we can deal with it.

That's all our construction projects.

And then the ARPA bill is another big one that is probably gonna come out of the Senate fairly promptly here, and they'll go to conference committee.

And those both have big impacts on our local communities.

They've got all kinds of projects passed out.

We're down to individual bills.

Most of the committee bills are out.

I think the legislature, all in all, has gone very smoothly this year.

- You're the one who chooses these conference committees.

You've been on a couple yourself this year, is that right?

- I did.

I actually, I've done one, and I chose to step in and had the budget bill.

Little bit controversial on that, usually your Appropriations Chairman does it.

I've spent 12 years workin' with the guys in the House and kudos to Representative Nicholas, Chairman Nicholas, of the Appropriations Committee.

We spent a lotta time, I wanted to make an example of how easy the budget could go, if you did the negotiations in a little bit different fashion that's been happening.

And the House was very gracious.

We worked closely together, and consequently, the budget came out.

As Don Richards said, our Chief Fiscal person, the quickest he's ever seen and the most non-contentious he's seen in his career, and that on probably one of the biggest supplemental budgets in Wyoming's history.

- Interesting point.

Yeah, the volatility of the previous couple of years, there's no guarantee that was going to be a smooth process this year, and you must take some pride in how it turned out.

- I take immense pride in it.

It was on its path to potentially bein' a fairly tough one.

And, I think when the two bodies really work with trust with each other, and that's, we talk about trust and integrity, and I believe you take somebody at their word until they show you otherwise.

House gave us their word what they'd do.

I gave 'em our word where we would be at, and I think it came through really well.

And ironically, probably some of the least amount of individual projects there's ever been in a bill.

It was pretty well pared down on both sides.

We did really good things.

They talked about the pay raises.

We put more money in savings than Wyoming has in its history.

It was a really, I thought, a phenomenal bill, and hopefully, that carries over into the general session next year, when we go to the budget session and run the two year biennial budget.

- The success story on the budget coincides with Jessee's presence as a page.

I think there's probably a connection there.

- (laughs) No doubt.

- I wanna thank both of you for being with us.

Jessee Driskell, Ogden Driskell, thanks both for your presence today, your appearance with us on "Capitol Outlook."

- Thanks, Steve.

Dave Freudenthal paid a visit to the Wyoming Capitol this week.

The former two-term Wyoming governor still practices law in Cheyenne, and he keeps his eye on the happenings at the Capitol during the legislative session, occasionally offering advice or commentary in his direct, distinctive style.

- [Gov.

Freudenthal] I mean, I just happened to catch it when people were interested in being pragmatic.

And I think that's the, that's the item that I think has evaporated from politics.

It's now Facebook clips, saying outrageous stuff can I get in the media?

I mean, there's no, I mean, there's some pretty decent just sort of substantive bills going through.

They get no attention.

I mean, it's all of this and both parties have become remarkably committed to social engineering my private life.

And I don't, I don't think it's any of their business one way or the other.

And, and that used to be the attitude in Wyoming as, as you know, growing up here was fundamentally live and let live, you know I'm not gonna violate your space and you stay outta mine and we can be friends.

- [Interviewer] Yeah.

I often, I remember my father saying he really didn't know what some friend or business associate's politics were, didn't know didn't come up, and he didn't care, didn't wanna know.

Maybe better not to know sometimes.

- Well, and, and people made judgements about other people without labels.

I mean, you earned, you either earned the respect or the disrespect based on what you did.

not on some preconceived label.

It's created a really kind of timid atmosphere for people who are thinking about stuff.

And so they don't want to risk taking a big initiative unless they can figure out how do I turn it into a Facebook thing.

And I think we have lost the key ingredient of Wyoming, which was "our advantages were small", and if we can figure out what we want to do we can move quickly, which most states can't, then we should be taking advantage of it.

I mean, we did some good things with the business ready communities.

It still goes on.

Tourism still goes.

I mean, there are a lot of things you do, but, but it's incremental.

It's like baseball.

Once in a while you get a home run but most of the time you win with base hits.

- You can't plan for the three run Homer in the bottom of the ninth.

Great when you get it, yeah.

- That's, it's a gift when it comes, but don't count on it.

- A bill in the legislature this session that would've prevented voters from one party from crossing over to vote in the primary election of the other party attracted the former governor's attention, but not in an admiring way.

You couldn't have been elected without a lot of Republicans voting for you.

What do you think about this legislation to keep Democrats from voting in the Republican primary or vice versa?

Because sometimes that happens, too.

- It's, it's a symbolic fight over the last war.

I mean, if every Democrat in the state had voted for Liz Cheney wasn't gonna change the outcome but it gave people a chance to be outraged.

It's sort of like election fraud.

I mean, county clerks are really serious about what they do and they're really good at it, you know, and so the notion that they were tolerating fraud, I mean, it's, it is you've taken the sort of bombastic national issue.

You bring it to Wyoming, it has no application in Wyoming.

And, and you look at it and you think couldn't we spend that same amount of time and energy figuring out how to make this a better place as opposed to figuring out how to beat up on people about stuff that frankly, it doesn't improve things.

- [Interviewer] Freudenthal, who served in office from 2003 through 2010, said that style and tone of interaction between the governor and the legislature depends largely on the chief executive.

- [Interviewer] How has the governor's relationship with the legislature changed?

Was the governor a more powerful office when you had it do you think?

- The governor makes that decision.

And that I learned from watching Hathaway and Herschler, they firmly believed that the job of the chief executive was to set the agenda.

Now, do you get it all what you want?

No.

You know, but you learn that when you're about 18 months old you don't get everything you want.

But it becomes the, the basis around which the debate is formed.

So, I mean every year I followed the same pattern that those two had.

You had a set of things you wanted passed and certain things you wanted done, you highlighted some of them, then you had the little attachment to your message about this bill needs to be done this bill needs to be done.

And, and you didn't ever leave, you didn't ever fail to fulfill your responsibilities as a co-equal branch for government.

And the legislature didn't fail to fulfill theirs.

I mean, I, I remember being up in front of the appropriations committee for eight hours and you know, they wanted, they wanted to ask questions and I thought I had answers.

And it was everything from soup to nuts.

And, and they were all, you know, as Al Simpson would say they were of the other faith.

And, you know, it was I described it as eight hours of stump the governor.

They didn't get it done.

And from then on, we got along great.

But the, but the the individual who holds the office decides whether or not, I mean, you have certain inherent powers you have certain statutory powers.

What you really have is the bully pulpit.

The opportunity to try to advance what you believe is important to the state.

You have to accept that you're gonna win some, you're gonna lose some.

But at the end of the day, you hope that the state's a better place than when you started.

And that doesn't happen if you're passive.

A reminder that our discussion with Governor Freudenthal was part of a larger interview, which we plan to feature in an installment or maybe even two of Wyoming Chronicle later this year.

As for Capitol Outlook, this was the final of what we might call our regular Capitol Outlook installments.

Next week, with the session ready to adjourn, We expect to be joined by Governor Mark Gordon, Senate President Driskell and House Speaker Sommers to talk about the session, how it went and what lies ahead for the legislature.

That's next week and we hope you'll join us.

For now, that's it for Capitol Outlook.

Thanks for watching.

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