♪ MUSIC REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

HELLO.

I'M LORENE MILLS, AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

OUR GUEST TODAY IS DR.

WENDY JOHNSON, A FAMILY PHYSICIAN AND ADDICTION SPECIALIST, AN ACTIVIST, YOU'VE DONE SO MANY THINGS.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT, FIRST, I JUST WANT TO WELCOME YOU TO PBS.

>>WENDY: THANKS SO MUCH, LORENE, IT'S SUCH AN HONOR TO BE HERE.

I'M SO THRILLED THAT YOU INVITED ME ON YOUR SHOW.

>>LORENE: I AM SO THRILLED THAT YOU WROTE A BOOK CALLED KINSHIP MEDICINE AND THE SUBTITLE IS... >>WENDY: CULTIVATING INTERDEPENDENCE TO HEAL THE EARTH AND OURSELVES .

>>LORENE: THAT'S BEAUTIFUL.

THAT IS A CLARION CALL, ANSWERING A CLARION CALL OF WHAT WE NEED MORE THAN ANYTHING RIGHT NOW.

VERY, VERY PERCEPTIVE, VERY NECESSARY BOOK.

YOU'RE THE DIRECTOR OF LA FAMILIA MEDICAL CENTER, YOU WERE FOR A WHILE, AND NOW YOU'RE AT EL CENTRO FAMILY HEALTH.

>>WENDY: RIGHT.

I WAS MEDICAL DIRECTOR AT LOS FAMILIA FOR TEN YEARS, AND NOW I AM A FAMILY PHYSICIAN AT EL CENTRO, I ALSO WORK FOR A SMALL RESEARCH FIRM IN TOWN CALLED ACCESS HEALTH.

AND I DO INVESTIGATIONS AROUND VACCINE TRIALS AND OTHER CLINICAL TRIALS.

I HAVE A LOT OF DIFFERENT HATS I WEAR, BUT THOSE ARE TWO OF THEM.

THEN I'M ALSO, YOU'LL FIND ME RIGHT IN THIS BUILDING IN THE LEGISLATURE, DURING THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

I'M A BIG ADVOCATE AROUND EXPANDING HEALTH CARE ACCESS AND ALSO AROUND ENVIRONMENT AND HEALTH, WHICH THE BOOK IS A LOT ABOUT.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>WENDY: I'M A PART OF A GROUP CALLED HEALTHY CLIMATE NEW MEXICO THAT ADVOCATES FOR, YOU KNOW, CLIMATE AWARENESS AND RESPONDING TO THE CLIMATE CHANGE CATASTROPHE THAT WE HAVE AND ESPECIALLY ADVOCATING AROUND THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON HEALTH.

>>LORENE: OH, MY.

I HOPE WE GET TO THAT BECAUSE YOU DID, YOU WENT TO JOHNS HOPKINS, YOU GOT A MASTER'S IN PUBLIC HEALTH, HEALTH POLICY AND GLOBAL HEALTH.

>>WENDY: THAT'S RIGHT.

>>LORENE: WELL, THAT'S JUST MASSIVE UNDERTAKING.

>>WENDY: YEAH, I'VE HAD A LOT OF DIFFERENT PUBLIC HEALTH JOBS, I WAS THE MEDICAL DIRECTOR FOR THE CITY OF CLEVELAND DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH, AND THEN SOME FRIENDS OF MINE THAT WERE ANTHROPOLOGISTS HAD BEEN WORKING IN MOZAMBIQUE, AND THEY HAD A PROJECT THAT WAS EXPANDING HIV TREATMENT AND CLINICS IN MOZAMBIQUE.

THEY SAID, WILL YOU COME TO MOZAMBIQUE AND RUN OUR PROGRAMS THERE, SO I DID THAT FOR A FEW YEARS.

SCALING UP HIV TREATMENT IN PRIMARY CARE CLINICS IN MOZAMBIQUE AND THEN I WENT TO THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON AND WAS ON THE, IN FACT, I'M STILL FACULTY OF THE GLOBAL HEALTH DEPARTMENT, UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON.

SO LOTS OF HATS.

>>LORENE: LOTS OF HATS, BUT THERE'S ONE IN PARTICULAR I WANT YOU TO TELL ME MORE ABOUT AND THAT'S CHILE.

>>WENDY: OH, YEAH.

>>LORENE: AND WHAT YOU LEARNED FROM THE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN THROUGH THE REVOLUTION, THE PINOCHET TIMES AND HOW THEY HAD TO ADAPT.

I MEAN, IT'S ALL VERY WELL TO HAVE TO EMBRACE THE PUBLIC, BUT IF YOU'RE UNDER A DICTATORSHIP, SOMETIMES IT'S NOT TOO COMFORTABLE.

>>WENDY: I THINK WE'RE LEARNING THAT RIGHT NOW IN THE UNITED STATES, MANY OF US ARE.

SO, YEAH, AGAIN, I WAS IN MEDICAL SCHOOL AT OHIO STATE, I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY, I GOT A GRANT TO STUDY MEDICINE IN ANOTHER COUNTRY.

I WANTED TO GO TO A COUNTRY WHERE I COULD LEARN SPANISH, SO I CHOSE CHILE, I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW A LOT ABOUT THE HISTORY AT THAT TIME AND I MET FOLKS IN CHILE, BOTH IN MY MEDICAL SCHOOL CLASS AND JUST KIND OF PEOPLE THAT I GOT CLOSE TO IN CHILE THAT HAD BEEN REALLY ON THE FRONTLINES OF ACTIVISM DURING THE PINOCHET DICTATORSHIP.

A VERY, VERY CLOSE FRIEND IN CHILE WAS THE HEAD OF THE LONGSHOREMEN'S UNION DURING THE PINOCHET YEARS AND A BIG ACTIVIST, HE HAD DURING THAT TIME A CLANDESTINE PRINTING PRESS AND FROM THEM VERY MODEST FOLKS, YOU KNOW, LIVING IN A WORKING-CLASS NEIGHBORHOOD, I REALLY LEARNED ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF MUTUAL AID.

I THINK BACK THEN, WHICH WAS LIKE THE EARLY 90S, IT WAS RIGHT AFTER THE END OF THE PINOCHET DICTATORSHIP AND THAT WASN'T A WORD THAT WAS VERY COMMON OR COMMONLY USED, THAT I WAS CONSCIOUS OF ANYWAY.

IDEAS ABOUT SOLIDARITY AND MUTUAL AID ARE REALLY THE THINGS THAT I TOOK FROM MY FRIENDS IN CHILE.

AND THE IDEA THAT, YOU KNOW, BUILDING A MORE JUST SOCIETY IS A REALLY LONG-HAUL PROJECT AND SOMETIMES YOU GET SETBACKS, BUT IT'S IMPORTANT TO HOLD TRUE TO YOUR VALUES OF SUPPORTING THE COMMUNITY, OF SUPPORTING EACH OTHER.

AND OF COURSE, MUTUAL AID IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN CHARITY, IT MEANS I MIGHT NEED HELP TODAY, BUT TOMORROW I MIGHT BE IN A POSITION TO GIVE HELP AND VICE VERSA, THAT WE ARE ALL ALWAYS NEEDING HELP AND ALSO SOMETIMES IN A POSITION TO GIVE HELP, IT'S JUST A RECOGNITION OF THE INTERCONNECTEDNESS OF COMMUNITY.

>>LORENE: IT'S THE INTERDEPENDENCE YOU TALK ABOUT.

>>WENDY: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: BUT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ALL LIVING FORMS, THE EARTH ITSELF, NATURE, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY, THERE'S SO MUCH INTERDEPENDENCE AMONG FRIENDS, AMONG COMMUNITY, AMONG NATIONS, WE HOPE.

>>WENDY: YEAH AND SOMETIMES WE FORGET THAT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE IN OUR BUSY LIVES WE GET, WE'RE VERY ISOLATED NOW.

I THINK SOCIAL MEDIA, OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM HAS CREATED A LOT OF DIFFERENT SILOS AND IT'S TO THE ADVANTAGE OF SOME PEOPLE IN POWER TO KEEP US ALL DIVIDED AND FIGHTING EACH AMONGST EACH OTHER, RATHER THAN UNITED, SO THAT WE CAN UNITE AGAINST THE PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY KEEPING US DOWN.

I THINK THAT WE NEED TO BREAK THOSE SILOS AND WE NEED TO GET BEYOND THEM AND REACH ACROSS THINGS THAT SOMEBODY WHO MIGHT SEEM A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN YOU, DIFFERENT SOCIOECONOMIC CLASS, DIFFERENT RACE, I THINK WE NEED TO REACH ACROSS THOSE DIVIDES AND START BUILDING BONDS.

>>LORENE: YEAH, I READ SOMETHING THAT YOU SAID THAT THE BOOK CAME OUT OF YOUR FRUSTRATION ABOUT HOW THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM ONLY REALLY DEALS WITH 20% OF WHAT DETERMINES YOUR HEALTH AND WELL-BEING, THE OTHER 80% IS... >>WENDY: WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS IN MEDICAL SCHOOL, WE DIDN'T REALLY EVEN LEARN ABOUT IT MUCH, SO IT TOOK ME MANY YEARS TO KIND OF FIGURE IT OUT.

THE 20% THAT THE MEDICAL SYSTEM DEALS WITH, WHICH IS A VERY IMPORTANT 20%, I LIKEN IT TO LIKE THE GOALIE OF THE SOCCER TEAM, RIGHT.

THAT IS THE BIOLOGIC INDIVIDUAL GENETIC FACTORS, ALLOPATHIC MEDICINE, WHICH IS THE MAINSTREAM KIND OF MEDICINE THAT PHYSICIANS PRACTICE IN THE UNITED STATES AND ARE TRAINED ON, KIND OF LOOKS AT YOUR BODY LIKE A MACHINE.

THAT IS WELL AND GOOD AND IT'S LED TO A LOT OF TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES, BUT THERE'S THIS OTHER 80% AND I'M NOT JUST PULLING THOSE FIGURES OUT OF MY HAT.

THOSE ARE FROM GOOD RESEARCH STUDIES THAT ONLY ABOUT 20% OF WHAT DETERMINES YOUR HEALTH AND WELL-BEING IS THAT INDIVIDUAL BIOLOGY GENETICS, THE OTHER 80% IS HOW YOU WERE RAISED, WHAT EDUCATIONAL LEVEL YOU HAVE, WHAT KIND OF JOB YOU HAVE, WHAT KIND OF FAMILY YOU HAVE, WHAT COMMUNITY YOU LIVE IN, WHAT YOUR SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS AND A MILLION OTHER THINGS.

WHAT'S YOUR RACE, WHAT'S A MILLION OTHER THINGS, WHICH WE CALL THE SOCIAL DETERMINANTS OF HEALTH AND THEY REALLY ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THAT 20%, THEY'RE LIKE THE REST OF THE SOCCER TEAM.

NOW, IF YOU'RE PLAYING IN A SOCCER TOURNAMENT, YOU DON'T WANT YOUR TEAM JUST TO HAVE A GOALIE, BUT YOU DON'T WANT YOUR TEAM TO NOT HAVE A GOALIE EITHER, YOU NEED THE GOALIE AND THEN YOU NEED THE REST OF YOUR TEAM.

SO THE BOOK SORT OF THINKS ABOUT WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE IF WE REALLY PAID ATTENTION TO THAT OTHER 80%.

>>LORENE: BUT YOU SAY, HOW CAN WE START ADDRESSING THAT, I MEAN, SHOWS LIKE THIS, BOOKS LIKE THIS, MAKE US REALIZE BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH IT NEEDS TO BE DONE FOR THAT DISPARITY.

>>WENDY: YEAH.

I THINK THE FIRST THING IS TO CHANGE OUR MINDSETS ABOUT HOW WE EVEN THINK ABOUT HEALTH AND WELLNESS.

WE THINK ABOUT HEALTH AND WELLNESS IS SO MUCH INDIVIDUAL, WHAT SUPPLEMENTS DO I NEED, WHAT THINGS DO I NEED AS AN INDIVIDUAL AND WE TEND TO NOT THINK OF IT AS A COMMUNAL OR COMMUNITY ATTRIBUTE.

BUT THE FACT IS THAT WE ARE ECOSYSTEMS, YOUR BODY IS AN ECOSYSTEM.

YOU ARE MADE UP OF ABOUT 30 TRILLION CELLS THAT ARE YOUR DNA, BUT 39 TRILLION CELLS ARE YOUR MICROBIOME, SO EVEN YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL SITTING HERE ARE A COMMUNITY OF BEINGS AND YOU'RE IN COMMUNICATION WITH THESE OTHER ECOSYSTEMS AROUND US, OTHER COMMUNITIES OF BEINGS.

AND WE REALLY CAN'T BE HEALTHY WHEN OUR ECOSYSTEMS ARE SICK AND SUFFERING.

SO WHAT IF WE THOUGHT OF WELLNESS, NOT IN TERMS OF JUST ME, ME, ME, HOW CAN I GET MY VITAMIN D LEVELS RIGHT OR WHATEVER, BUT HOW CAN WE AS A COMMUNITY IMPROVE THE CONDITIONS FOR THE WHOLE COMMUNITY OF BEINGS, WHETHER THAT'S YOUR MICROBIOME OR YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD OR YOUR CITY OR STATE.

>>LORENE: I KNOW, JANE GOODALL WAS ONE OF THE KIND OF PROPHETS OF THAT BECAUSE SHE'S THE ONE WHO STOPPED AND GAVE THE CHIMPANZEES NAMES IN THE FIELD.

BIOLOGISTS WERE SAYING, YOU CAN'T GIVE THEM NAMES, YOU CAN'T AND TOOK TIME TO NOTICE.

YOU KNOW, SHE ENGAGED WITH THE WORLD AROUND HER AT SUCH AN INTIMATE LEVEL AND THE PEOPLE HADN'T REALIZED THAT, YES, FIDO, A FRIEND AND YOU UNDERSTAND THAT HE'S GOT THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS AND SO DOES FLUFFY THE CAT.

BUT ALL BEINGS HAVE SUCHNESS ABOUT THEM, ABOUT WHO THEY ARE ABOUT THEM AND IF YOU STEP A LITTLE OUTSIDE OF ME, ME, ME, WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME, THE AMERICAN WAY, THEN YOU CAN, THE RICHNESS OF YOUR EXPERIENCE WILL BE MULTIPLIED SO BEAUTIFULLY.

>>WENDY: YEAH AND I ALSO THINK, YOU KNOW, I'M ACTUALLY TESTIFYING AT THE LEGISLATURE NEXT WEEK ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF FOREVER CHEMICALS, PFAS ON HEALTH.

>>LORENE: OH, MY GOSH.

>>WENDY: AND I THINK THAT WHEN WE FOCUS JUST ON THESE INDIVIDUAL FACTORS, WE'RE JUST KIND OF NIBBLING AROUND THE EDGES OF WHAT REALLY DETERMINES OUR HEALTH, AGAIN THAT 20% OR EVEN LESS AND WE'RE LETTING OTHER PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, IMPOSE ON THAT OTHER 80%.

AND REALLY, WHEN WE BAND TOGETHER AS GROUPS AND COMMUNITIES AND REALLY WORK TOGETHER TO IMPROVE THOSE CONDITIONS FOR OUR HOUSE, THAT NOT ONLY IS MUCH, MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE AT IMPROVING OUR INDIVIDUAL HEALTH, BUT IT REALLY HAS, LIKE MULTIPLYING EFFECTS FOR THE HEALTH OF THE COMMUNITY.

>>LORENE: THAT'S VERY GOOD AS A PROPHYLACTIC OR PREVENTATIVE, BUT EVEN IN SANTA FE, NEAR LA CIENEGA, THERE'S A PFAS DEPOSIT AND THEY'RE CALLED FOREVER CHEMICALS.

>>WENDY: RIGHT, EXACTLY.

>>LORENE: YOU KNOW, AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO, THE WATER, THE SOIL, YOU KNOW, AND FOR PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS THERE SUDDENLY THEIR LAND IS WORTHLESS.

THE WATER IS WORTHLESS AND SO TO MOVE AS PREVENTIVELY AS WE CAN TO ISOLATE THE SOURCES OF THESE BECAUSE THEY'RE IN TEFLON, THEY'RE IN A LOT OF THINGS AND PLASTICS, YOU KNOW, WE JUST HAVE TO REALLY WATCH IT.

BUT THE FACT THAT, WE'RE REALLY BEHIND THE BALL, WE'RE BEHIND THE CURVE, THESE ARE EVERYWHERE, WE HAVE TO REALLY MARCH ON THEM AND TRY TO DO WHAT WE CAN TO AMELIORATE THEIR ILL EFFECTS ON US.

>>WENDY: RIGHT.

AND I JUST THINK THERE'S $6 TRILLION RIGHT NOW SPENT ON THE WELLNESS INDUSTRY ON SUPPLEMENTS, ON, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT KINDS OF PROCEDURES, DIFFERENT KINDS OF TECHNIQUES TO IMPROVE OUR HEALTH INDIVIDUALLY.

WHAT IF ALL THAT ATTENTION, INSTEAD, WAS FOCUSED ON IMPROVING OUR ENVIRONMENT, WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

>>LORENE: YES AND WELL, WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH DR.

WENDY JOHNSON, WHO'S A FAMILY PHYSICIAN ADDICTION SPECIALIST.

IN HER BOOK, KINSHIP MEDICINE, SHE LOOKS AT A WAY TO RESTORE ALL THE INDIVIDUAL HEALTH, THE COMMUNITY'S HEALTH, THE HEALTH OF NATURE AND THE EARTH.

ONE THING I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT, HOW DID WE END UP WITH MOSTLY ALLOPATHIC SYSTEMS AND PLEASE EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOMEOPATHIC AND ALLOPATHIC AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL THE OTHER VERY SUCCESSFUL, LONG LIVED, HEALING TRADITIONS, ESPECIALLY THE INDIGENOUS HEALING TRADITIONS.

>>WENDY: RIGHT, WELL, THE BASIS OF OUR ALLOPATHIC MEDICAL SYSTEM REALLY GOES BACK TO EUROPE AND TO THE IDEA THAT WE WANTED TO, IT WAS BASED IN MILITARISM AND COLONIALISM, BECAUSE REALLY THE ADVANCES WERE ABOUT HOW DO WE KEEP MEN, SOLDIERS, FIGHTING AND FIX THEM UP WHEN THEY GET INJURED.

AND HOW DO WE KEEP MISSIONARIES AND SETTLERS SAFE WHEN THEY'RE GOING TO TROPICAL AREAS WHERE THEY HAVE MALARIA AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

THAT WAS REALLY A LOT OF THE FOCUS OF OUR MEDICAL SYSTEM FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

IN THE EARLY 1900S IN THE UNITED STATES, THERE WAS AN EFFORT, BECAUSE THERE WAS ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT HEALING TRADITIONS IN THE UNITED STATES, AND SOME OF IT WAS QUACKERY, TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, BECAUSE ANYBODY COULD JUST PUT OUT A SHINGLE, SELL WHATEVER, BUT LIKE TODAY WITH THE WELLNESS, IT WAS REALLY LIKE TODAY WITH THE WELLNESS INDUSTRY, YOU COULD SELL WHATEVER YOU WANTED, YOU COULD MAKE WHATEVER CLAIMS, AND THERE WAS NO WAY TO TELL.

SO PART OF WHAT THE FLEXNER REPORT, THERE WAS THIS GUY NAMED FLEXNER THAT WAS HIRED BY THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION AND THE MAJOR UNIVERSITIES AT THE TIME, HARVARD, JOHN HOPKINS, TO DO A STUDY OF WHAT WAS OUT THERE AND MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS ABOUT WHAT CAN BE DONE.

AND OUT OF THAT CAME THE IDEA OF LICENSING OF DOCTORS.

IN ORDER TO GET A LICENSE, YOU NEEDED TO GO TO A CERTIFIED SANCTIONED MEDICAL UNIVERSITY AND THERE WERE VERY FEW OF THOSE, LIKE HARVARD, HOPKINS, STANFORD, YOU KNOW, A FEW, RUSH.

AND THOSE PLACES BASICALLY WERE INACCESSIBLE TO ANYBODY EXCEPT FOR WHITE MEN AT THAT TIME, SO THE FLEXNER REPORT GOT RID OF ALL THE QUACKS, WHICH WAS PROBABLY A GOOD THING, BUT IT ALSO GOT RID OF ANY KIND OF TRADITIONAL HEALERS IN ANY KIND OF OTHER MODALITY, AND KEEP IN MIND, IN 1910, NOTHING WAS REALLY THAT EVIDENCE BASED, INCLUDING ALLOPATHIC MEDICINE.

ONE THING THAT WAS PRETTY EVIDENCE BASED IS THE GERM THEORY WAS PRETTY NEW, SO THE IDEA OF ANTISEPTIC TECHNIQUES WAS BEING TAUGHT IN MEDICAL SCHOOL, SO THAT WAS A GOOD THING.

BUT IT REALLY HAD SOME GOOD EFFECTS, BUT IT HAD SOME NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF WIPING OUT ALL THESE OTHER MODALITIES, INCLUDING MIDWIVES AND INCLUDING ANY KIND OF TRADITIONAL INDIGENOUS HEALING, ANY KIND OF, ESPECIALLY AFRICAN-AMERICANS WHO WERE IN MEDICINE.

SO IT'S ESTIMATED THAT BECAUSE OF THE FLEXNER REPORT TODAY, WE HAVE ABOUT 30,000 FEWER BLACK DOCTORS THAN WE WOULD HAVE IF THE FLEXNER HAD EXISTED.

SO FOR REALLY THE NEXT ALMOST HUNDRED YEARS AFTER THE FLEXNER REPORT, MEDICINE WAS REALLY THE DOMAIN OF WHITE MEN AND IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT FOR ANYBODY ELSE TO PRACTICE.

WE THINK ABOUT MIDWIVES, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IS IF YOU DID TRY TO PRACTICE WHATEVER YOUR HEALING TRADITION WAS, IS YOU RAN THE RISK OF BEING CHARGED, BEING CRIMINALIZED AS PRACTICING MEDICINE WITHOUT A LICENSE.

AND, YOU KNOW, OBGYNS WANTED TO CONTROL BIRTH AND CHILDBIRTH AND LABOR AND DELIVERY AND SO THERE WERE MIDWIVES WHO, YOU KNOW, HAD TO KIND OF PRACTICE CLANDESTINELY IN THAT TIME.

SO, YEAH, IT DEFINITELY, SET US BACK A LOT, I THINK, AND AGAIN, AT THAT TIME WE TALK ABOUT INDIGENOUS HEALING LIKE IT'S NOT SCIENTIFIC.

WE DON'T USE THE WORDS SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, PHILOSOPHY TO TALK ABOUT INDIGENOUS BELIEFS, INDIGENOUS SCIENCE, BUT REALLY THEY ARE, THEY'RE BASED ON EMPIRICAL STUDIES, IF YOU WILL, OF GENERATIONS, THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF OBSERVATIONAL PRACTICE, WHICH IS WHAT MEDICINE IS, WHAT SCIENCE IS, IT'S TRIAL AND ERROR, IT'S OBSERVATION, IT'S RECORDING THAT AND FIGURING OUT WHAT WORKS.

AND WE DON'T CALL IT SCIENCE, BUT IT IS SCIENCE.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

I KNOW WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO ANOTHER SHOW, BUT I'VE GOT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS, YOU WROTE AN ARTICLE ON SNAP AND SUPPLEMENTS, THE COLLAPSE OF CARE AND FROM THAT I REALIZE THAT SNAP STARTED AT THE END OF THE DEPRESSION.

IN 2017, THEY HAD LIFTED 3.5 MILLION PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY AND THE WORST STATES FOR THE SNAP CUTS ARE THE POOR ONES, NEW MEXICO, LOUISIANA AND WEST VIRGINIA.

BUT 42 MILLION AMERICANS DEPEND ON SNAP.

THE AVERAGE BENEFIT IS $200 PER PERSON OR PER MONTH OR $6.50 PER DAY.

>>WENDY: YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.

AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, OBVIOUSLY IT'S SUPPLEMENTAL.

SO I'VE SEEN ONLINE A LOT OF PEOPLE SAYING, OH, THESE FREELOADERS, AND ANOTHER THING I'VE SEEN IS, OH, WHY ARE WE GIVING FOOD TO OBESE PEOPLE, THEY NEED TO EAT LESS.

WELL, THE FACT IS, IS IF YOU ARE A SINGLE MOM WORKING TWO JOBS, LIVING IN A CITY WITHOUT A CAR, DEPENDENT ON BUS ROUTES, THE TIME IT TAKES TO PREPARE FOOD, TO GO AND SHOP FOR HEALTHY FOOD, TO PREPARE IT, TO COOK IT FOR YOUR KIDS, IT'S REALLY PROHIBITIVE, AND THE MONEY IT TAKES.

SO SNAP REALLY MAKES THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING ABLE TO PROVIDE HEALTHY FOODS.

IF YOU'RE NOT ABLE TO GET SNAP, THE CHEAPEST FOODS THAT HAVE THE HIGHEST AMOUNT OF CALORIES AND BANG FOR THE BUCK AND THE MOST CONVENIENT IS MCDONALD'S AND THEY KNOW IT, YOU KNOW.

MCDONALD'S IS ACTUALLY REALLY RESPONDING TO POVERTY, YOU KNOW, THEY PROVIDE A PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO SIT, THEY PROVIDE JOBS FOR PEOPLE AND THEY PROVIDE REALLY CHEAP FOOD.

AND YEAH, IT'S NOT HEALTHY, BUT IT'S SURVIVAL AND SO IF WE WANT PEOPLE TO BE HEALTHY, DEMONSTRABLY SNAP DOES THAT.

KIDS THAT GET SNAP HAVE LOWER RATES OF LOW BIRTH WEIGHT, HAVE HIGHER BIRTH WEIGHTS, ARE MORE LIKELY TO FINISH HIGH SCHOOL AND LATER IN LIFE HAVE LOWER RATES OF CHRONIC DISEASE AND LOWER RATES OF OBESITY.

SO IT HAS EFFECTS THAT REVERBERATE FOR GENERATIONS BECAUSE, YES, IT ALLOWS POOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT OTHERWISE BE AT RISK OF CHRONIC DISEASE AND OBESITY TO ACTUALLY ACCESS HEALTHY FOODS.

>>LORENE: SO I CAN SEE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO COME BACK SOON, THERE'S A COUPLE OF OTHER THINGS I WOULD LIKE YOU TO TALK ABOUT.

YOU HAVE MENTIONED THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE DEEPLY CONNECTED TO PLACE AND TO COMMUNITY ARE MORE RESILIENT AND HEALTHIER AND SO HOW CAN WE MOVE TOWARD THAT KINSHIP WITH EARTH AND NATURE AND WITH EACH OTHER AND THEN ONE THING I JUST WANT YOU TO MENTION VERY BRIEFLY, I LOVE IT.

YOU GAVE A TED TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT OF SOLIDARITY ON FOREIGN AID AND TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED WHEN TRUMP CANCELED ALL THE FOREIGN AID, SO MANY PEOPLE DIED AND YOU AT THE LANCET MAGAZINE SAID THAT U.S.

AID HAD SAVED OVER 92 MILLION LIVES OVER TWO DECADES AND THEY JUST SUDDENLY CUT IT.

>>WENDY: YEAH, WELL, THOSE ARE TWO, LET ME TAKE THE U.S.

AID QUESTION FIRST AND THEN WE CAN END ON THE OTHER QUESTION.

I WORKED IN MOZAMBIQUE, AS I SAID, SCALING UP HIV TREATMENT THERE AND I SAW HOW MANY PEOPLE AND ESPECIALLY THE BABIES PREVENTING MOTHER TO CHILD TRANSMISSION OF HIV, THINGS LIKE THAT, KIDS THAT ARE SAVED FROM MALNUTRITION, JUST ALL KINDS OF REALLY LONG-LASTING EFFECTS.

SINCE U.S AID HAS BEEN CUT, THE ESTIMATES VARY, BUT LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE DIED OR WILL DIE, IMMINENTLY, AND MILLIONS, REALLY, IF WE DON'T RESTORE THAT AID, BECAUSE OF THE CUTOFF OF AID.

AND A LOT OF THAT AID GOES TO PLACES WHERE THE UNITED STATES HAD A ROLE IN WHY THESE COUNTRIES ARE POOR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

SO SOME OF THAT AID, YOU KNOW, IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO THINGS THAT WE HAVE DONE TO IMPOVERISH SOME OF THESE COUNTRIES, BUT THAT'S A LONGER STORY.

I WOULD MUCH RATHER AND I THINK IT'S MUCH BETTER FOR OUR U.S.

INTERESTS TO HAVE A DOLLAR GOING TO US AID THAN A DOLLAR GOING TO THE MILITARY.

I THINK IT PROMOTES OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS MUCH MORE EFFECTIVELY.

THE OTHER QUESTION THAT YOU ASKED ABOUT KINSHIP AND WHAT DO WE DO TO START CREATING THAT CONNECTION TO PLACE AND COMMUNITY IN OUR OWN LIVES.

I HAVE A COUPLE OF STEPS THAT I KIND OF TAKE PEOPLE THROUGH.

>>LORENE: THANK YOU.

>>WENDY: YOU KNOW, I CALL THE BOOK NOT A SELF-HELP BOOK, BUT A COLLECTIVE HELP BOOK.

BUT I KNOW PEOPLE WANT THINGS THAT THEY CAN DO, I'VE RESISTED KIND OF GIVING PEOPLE A QUICK LIKE FIVE THINGS YOU CAN DO TO BUILD KINSHIP IN YOUR LIVES, BUT I THINK THE FIRST STEP IS REALLY A MINDSET CHANGE LIKE I WAS TALKING ABOUT.

REALLY THINKING ABOUT KINSHIP AWARENESS IN YOUR LIFE, REALLY TRYING TO ELIMINATE THESE IDEAS THAT ARE SO INGRAINED IN OUR CULTURE OF BOTH INDIVIDUALISM AND OF HUMAN SUPERIORITY.

WE ARE NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN THE WORLD, HUMAN BEINGS.

AND I THINK THIS ANTHROPOCENTRISM THINKING THAT WE ARE ALL THAT.

>>LORENE: DOMINION, WE HAVE DOMINION OVER THE EARTH AND ITS CREATURES.

>>WENDY: WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE WANT, WE CAN TRASH WHATEVER WE WANT AND TAKE WHATEVER WE WANT, GREEDILY, AND THERE WON'T BE CONSEQUENCES, BUT WE'RE REALLY KILLING OURSELVES.

SO THE FIRST STEP IS JUST TO THINK OF ALL THE LITTLE WAYS IN YOUR LIFE THAT YOU JUST GO ALONG WITH THE CULTURE IN THAT WAY.

AND THERE'S KIND OF A LOT, I MEAN, IT'S AS SIMPLE AS WHETHER OR NOT YOU KILL A SPIDER THAT'S NOT HARMING ANYBODY, YOU KNOW.

NIKKI GIOVANNI HAS A GREAT POEM ABOUT THAT.

>>LORENE: AND WE ONLY HAVE TWO MINUTES.

BUT YOU'RE GOING TO COME BACK AND TELL US MORE.

>>WENDY: I WILL FINISH.

>>LORENE: FINISH THE STEPS.

>>WENDY: SO NUMBER ONE, I THINK IS JUST THINKING ABOUT THAT AWARENESS AND THEN NUMBER TWO IS REALLY ACTING ON THAT AWARENESS.

ONCE YOU REALLY FEEL THAT CONNECTION TO OTHER BEINGS IN YOUR LIFE, YOU FIND WAYS THAT YOU CAN SUPPORT THEM AND THAT THEY SUPPORT YOU.

AND I TALK ABOUT THINGS IN THE BOOK, I TALK ABOUT A COTTONWOOD TREE THAT CLEAVED IN HALF AND HOW I SORT OF DID THIS ARBOREAL ORTHOPEDIC SURGERY AND BOLTED IT TOGETHER.

I TALK ABOUT THIS COYOTE THAT I HELPED HEAL FROM MANGE.

IF YOU GO TO MY SOCIAL MEDIA OR WEBPAGE, YOU CAN FIND SOME LINKS.

>>LORENE: GIVE US YOUR WEBPAGE.

>>WENDY: IT IS WENDYJOHNSONMD.COM, VERY EASY, AND LINK TO SOCIAL MEDIA, YOU CAN SEE SOME OF THAT.

BUT I THINK THEN YOU FIND ONCE YOU FEEL THAT LOVE FOR OTHER CREATURES AND NEIGHBORS EVEN, YOU FIND WAYS YOU CAN HELP EACH OTHER OUT AND THEN JUST START ACTING ON THAT AND THEN IT BUILDS INTO AN ACCUMULATION OF ACTS THAT EVENTUALLY CAN HAVE RIPPLE EFFECTS AND CAN REALLY CHANGE OUR WHOLE SOCIETY.

>>LORENE: WOW, THAT'S GREAT, I WANT YOU TO COME BACK.

>>WENDY: ALL RIGHT.

>>LORENE: OUR GUEST TODAY IS DR.

WENDY JOHNSON AND THIS BOOK, IT'S CALLED KINSHIP MEDICINE .

I CANNOT RECOMMEND THIS HIGHLY, MORE HIGHLY, THE MORE PEOPLE READ IT, THE MORE THE STEPS WILL START SELF-ACTUATING.

SO I REALLY WANT TO RECOMMEND IT AND ARE YOU WRITING ANYTHING ELSE, ARE YOU TRAVELING, DOING YOUR TRAVEL ALL OVER THE COUNTRY TALKING ABOUT THIS BOOK SO WELL RECEIVED.

>>WENDY: THANK YOU, IT'S BEEN GREAT.

I WRITE A LITTLE BIT IN SUBSTACK ON A SUBSTACK NEWSLETTER, AND YOU CAN FIND THAT UNDER MY NAME.

MAYBE I'LL WRITE ANOTHER BOOK ON HOW WE CAN REDO THE WHOLE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM TO REALLY ACTUALIZE SOME OF THIS, THAT MIGHT BE MY NEXT BOOK.

>>LORENE: I WILL BE FIRST TO READ IT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

WENDY JOHNSON, IT'S REALLY A PRIVILEGE HAVING YOU SHARING THIS IDEA WITH US, AND I WANT YOU TO COME BACK SOON.

>>WENDY: THANK YOU SO MUCH, IT'S BEEN GREAT TO BE HERE.

>>LORENE: IT HAS HASN'T IT AND I'M LORENE MILLS.

I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

♪ MUSIC