For the Pennsylvania Parade, I'm PJ O'Connell.

It has been a great privilege as producers of documentaries for Penn State Public Broadcasting, to involve ourselves in the lives and actions of some very interesting and important people in rural Pennsylvania.

This segment of The Pennsylvania Parade brought us very close to the Central issues in one person's life.

We met this person at a moment of crisis.

He describes himself as distressed and dispirited.

He was dealing with issues of conflict, fear, anguish, and change.

And we were allowed to observe and record his struggle.

Charlie Mason is from an urban suburban background, moved by his superiors to a city of less than 10,000, in mountainous, isolated, backward-- his term-- rural Pennsylvania, and he is expected to lead the community or at least his part of it.

Charlie Mason's field is religion, and he's a professional, a minister, and his struggle is with what sort of professional he will be.

Whether the presumption that he will be the leader of his church is one that he can fulfill.

Reverend Mason is expected to be a man with answers.

In truth, he has a great many questions.

[music playing] [choir singing] CHARLES MASON: But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your arms may be in secret.

And your father who sees in secret will reward you.

And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men.

Truly, I say to you, they have their reward.

Well, I'm Charlie Mason, and I have a little boy, Samuel, whose 1, wife is Lynn, and this is Ellen.

And we've been married for eight years and been here in Lock Haven for a year and a half, haven't we, Ellen?

We used to live in Salisbury, Maryland, where I had a parish for 10 years.

I grew up in Springfield, Ohio, where I was a Methodist, but came to the Episcopal Church when I was in college at Oberlin College.

My senior year, I was confirmed, and I taught school for a year and then went to seminary.

[choir singing] The church I serve is St. Paul's Church here in Lock Haven.

It's a congregation of 160 members.

It's about 100 years old and I guess like most parishes, it's had its ups and downs.

Dorothy, you remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

Richard, remember that you are dust, and to dust you shall return.

The first year it was tough-- tough, tough.

I suppose it's just tough for churches and pastors to get used to each other for a while.

It takes a while for the marriage to take, if you will.

And people have to get used to each other, have to trust each other, have to discover each other's style and strong points and sore points and all the rest.

St. Paul's Church and I are no exception.

Being on the Main Street of downtown, you're really sort of an integral part of the life of the community.

It's county seat, a small town, a little bit stuck off in the mountains, and is not eager to identify with the rest of the world altogether.

Yes, please.

How have you been?

Fine thank you.

You?

Very good.

Very good.

Thank you.

I guess I find the town, well, backward is the word that comes to my mind.

But I don't mean that in such a negative way.

I just mean that they aren't where the rest of the nation is as I have experienced it.

And some of that's good and some of that's bad.

But that has created special problems for me, because ministry is a fairly sensitive thing, and you get used to talking and relating to people who are living in touch with certain cultural realities throughout our country, and they aren't the same realities here as they were in my last parish.

And that was a shock for me.

That was it's been a real change, and I think it's maybe been a shock for some of the people in the parish.

And I suppose some of that shock is very good and some of it's difficult to live with on both sides.

[music playing] [choir singing] Public worship is an integral part of Christian church's life because religion is not just a private thing, it's a shared thing.

It has to do with worship, and service, and praise, and request.

It has to do with celebrating something.

A parade is the celebration of something in the past, a victory won, an accomplishment finished, an ordeal undergone.

All the issues are resolved in a parade.

The war is over.

The sides have settled their dispute, the anxiety has quieted, and there isn't any more risk in a parade.

To preach regularly is to engage in a serious discipline.

To stand up Sunday by Sunday and make sense out of religious truth in such a way as to engage people's lives, to not be stupid or boring and have it be worthwhile is a serious task.

[music playing] [choir singing] When I came to St. Paul's Church 20 months ago, there was some question as to whether the doors of this church would stay open.

And that has been an issue in the life of this parish over the past decade.

I think I was here for probably a little over a year before I realized that this parish really was going to go financially.

And people have been very generous.

We don't really have financial problems.

We're in the midst of a capital funds drive right now for $9,000, and we're going to make it handily.

Sanctify with thy word and Holy Spirit these thy gifts and creatures of bread and wine that we receive.

It's hard to be up and rejoice if there are a lot of empty seats.

That's the negative psychological.

Body of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Keep you in everlasting.

The body of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But I trust we can get over that one.

I don't think that's insurmountable.

On my good days, I don't.

I'm on bad days, I do, I guess.

Hi, Peggy.

How are you?

Good?

Jean, good morning to you.

Calvin.

Super Thursday.

Fantastic.

I got into that one.

Marching and-- There's as marching and parading.

Wow.

It's true, isn't it?

That's something, yeah.

It's heavy, heavy stuff.

You're well?

Very well.

All that job and all that fitness.

Oh, yeah.

Good.

Mrs. Fox.

Pleasure to see you this morning.

Welcome.

Hope to see you again.

You and I have still got to have an appointment.

Yes.

We do.

We will.

Stella.

Sorry, I didn't fast.

I didn't show up.

You are so pure.

No, I'm not.

My mother-- You are so pure.

Have a nice trip.

Thank you.

Have a nice trip, too.

Richard I hope your wife is recovers.

Yes.

[inaudible] I'm going out much richer than I came in.

I really enjoyed that today.

Good for you.

Good man, too.

Thank you.

Hey, you have a good trip.

OK, thank you.

Doctor, good morning to you.

Very nice, sir.

Thank you.

Being a clergyman is a very political job.

Good morning, Wes.

Where's that daddy of yours?

That is to say, public opinion weighs heavily as to what will fly and what won't as to how things are going.

And so one of the things that a clergyman is doing is he's always listening to where people are and what they like and what they don't like, and what they care about and what they don't care about.

What strikes a responsive chord?

Who's sick?

What's the talk of the town?

Because it's only in relation to all of that he can really ply his trade and do any good.

One of the difficulties with doing religion is that you don't-- It's very hard to evaluate, and I'm always in the process of that.

And when people tell me they like it, well, I love it.

It helps.

It encourages me to persevere in what is, for me, a difficult task, and that's leading a church.

Preaching regularly is tough.

Now, when Jesus came, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for days.

Then Mary, when she came where Jesus was and saw him, fell at his feet, saying to him, Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.

When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled.

And he said, where have you laid him?

They said to him, Lord, come and see.

When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come out.

The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with bandages, and his face wrapped with a cloth.

Jesus said to them, unbind him, and let him go.

The gospel of the Lord.

Amen.

I read something from Bruce Larson about the fact that we have to do the unbinding.

Jesus gives life, but we have to do the unbinding.

Very interesting study tree.

Oh, my.

Sermon prep group is where I go to church.

Sermon prep group is nice.

Look, I know people in the congregation who feel that we're dead and that there isn't any-- that we really don't count for much.

We know services are like that.

We know exchanges that we have with people in the church that just drive us up the wall.

It's a couple of hours a week where we sort through our ministries together.

Yeah, I really leaned on that hard.

I know that some of my parishioners have been surprised to discover that I taped my sermons every week and that I go-- some of them know that I go every week and work on it, and they have expressed surprise.

I guess the death that I respond to in the churches is where nobody expects anything to happen, where we just-- people come to church.

They want to keep the church open.

They don't want to see the church go away, but they don't-- but I have the sense that they don't really expect anything of any significance to ever come of it.

And maybe that's-- maybe they've learned that from a long history of nothing happening.

I don't want to just blame them.

Let's aim at that, because that's the way everybody feels.

That's why the vestry can think of all the things wrong-- Well, you got me started on this thing because I really had some similar experiences about church that doesn't just wants to survive, no expectations, other than possibly not closing the doors.

Yeah.

CHARLES MASON: We are able to give perspective to each other as well as encouragement and hope and help and sometimes love.

--some leadership about those dreams where before I just sort of immobilized until I could kind of-- CHARLES MASON: It can be a lonely business, and it's very nice to have that.

I think one of the things the servant has to do is to honor the horrible feeling of death that people have in their own personal life, in their families, their marriages that are screwed up, their kids that are freaking out, their church that's a pain in the tail half the time.

If all of that's true-- and it isn't God's business to tell you that ain't so.

But what his business is to say-- he comes to us and goes through all that with us, but he come out on the other side.

Yeah, that's-- It's a tough job to preach.

And anybody who gets into Christianity deep enough to have his life involved on a regular daily whatever it be-- seriously engaged with himself and with other people and with God somehow will know how difficult Christian life is.

That's all there is to it.

I understand it's been a tough week.

That's true.

That's a tough thing, isn't it?

Just being helpless.

Yeah.

Well, I don't mean to pretend that I'm the answer man, but sometimes it's helpful to talk that sort of thing over with somebody and-- well, the subject of meaning and value and purpose and what's going on in this world is raised most significantly and starkly when something wrong happens.

And interestingly enough, that's often at variance with what so many people think, because so many people think that religion has to do with things that are nice and pleasant and smooth and good and wholesome and happy.

And that's true.

But we don't usually realize it until it gets tested.

We may know the goodness of God and the goodness of this life, and the beauty and the goodness of the things we experience.

But we only know the truth and reality of it all when it gets tested in the fires.

MARY: It didn't right the-- it isn't right.

It isn't right.

And I just hate the idea, being as old as I am and still having that disagreeable feeling that isn't right.

I know it, but I can't help it.

I just can't help it.

There's nothing I can do about it.

So one day, we went to see Mary in Susquehanna Nursing Home.

She's, I guess, 89 years old.

She's a maiden lady who has lived here all her life, a lifelong and faithful member of this congregation.

She is there against her will, and she resents it.

--taking care of a lot of bunk when you know darn well that I mean more than that, that I could have my own home and take care of myself.

What would you do now with all the snow?

I said, well, you poor darn fool, I said, do you think I would go and live from hand to mouth and have just two pieces of bread in the house?

I said I didn't-- CHARLES MASON: I find it exhausting to be part of-- to deal with people at that level of intimacy and intensity.

MARY: I said I didn't live like that.

It also is very humbling to realize you really don't have all the answers.

It keeps me from having a lot of neat little pat answers because what you do when you touch somebody-- yesterday, I spent some time with a person and just who was dissatisfied with his life and.

And just before I went, I suggested an interpretation of this person's dissatisfaction.

And this person began to cry uncontrollably.

And there's really nothing to do at that point.

There is really not much to say.

Really, what one does is one stands, one holds the other person's hands and gazes at the mystery.

And we need that when things are very good, and we need that when things are very bad.

And I guess we need that by faith in all the humdrum days too.

And that's a lot of Christian ministry right there, I think.

Mr. Kirkman had a heart attack.

They took him to the hospital, and the hospital called me a couple of times.

They were afraid that he might not live until 9 o'clock.

So I went up there early.

And that's when I saw him.

Well, he loves you.

Yes, he does.

He's a good man, isn't he?

Nurse said your priest is doing more for him than we could do.

Is that right?

Yes.

Yeah, well-- I love you.

Well, I love you.

I'm sorry I had to call you.

That's all right.

I called Lynn and I said, let it go till 9:00 unless otherwise.

The nurse said, you had better get them.

Well, she said I could stay around and go see him every once in a while.

I think I'd like to do that.

OK. Let's sit down a little.

Or do you want to take a walk?

Oh, I'll sit down with you.

All right.

Did he talk to me?

Oh, yeah.

Did he ever.

But he really is in pain.

And he's really fighting.

He's working hard right now.

He's working hard.

And I guess he's doing some of the most important work you'll ever do right now.

When it comes time to die, I don't know if he's dying-- Mr. Kirkman did not regain his health and get out of the hospital.

On the other hand, Mrs. Kirkman has not been broken by that experience, and I wanted to say to her that he wasn't losing a battle.

If he was, in fact, in the process of dying-- I didn't know whether he was or not.

He was in the intensive care, coronary care, I guess.

But if he was in fact, in the process of dying, Christians want to make that out as though that is a step toward God, not a step away from life, that the battle is not to be won or lost.

It's a question of their ability to offer the rest of their lives and even their pain and whatever struggles they have to God himself.

And I think that's really what a person is doing when he is dying.

And if she can understand that, then it can be a glorious thing.

Of course, they will be separated and that will be a painful thing.

But to think of the final preparation and self-offering of oneself to God is indeed important work.

I want to welcome you good people especially to this, the highest feast of the Christian year.

Today is the day of days because it is the celebration of Jesus' resurrection from the dead.

Whatever else Christians believe, whatever they may disagree about, the central truth for all is that Jesus rose from the grave, that our ancient enemy and foe, death, has been conquered.

And we share in Christ's victory, and we too shall follow him into everlasting life, into the very presence of God himself.

[indistinct singing] This is a very traditional parish.

When I came, a number of members of the congregation didn't know each other's names, which I found almost incredible for a town and a church as small as this is.

Ladies and gentlemen, I want to welcome you to the rectory.

And, well, just in case you don't know everybody, and to add a little spice to the evening, and since-- and since-- WOMAN: We already added it.

We added this.

And since Valentine's coming, we decided that we would play a game.

People needed to learn how to have more fun together.

In any family, you got to spend some time having fun together.

And that was true very much amongst the leadership.

And so for the second year running, my wife and I decided we would invite the vestry to a party.

Ken, let me see who you are.

Oh, Ken, you're perfect, man.

You're beautiful.

There seemed to be a lack of a tradition of working on things together, sharing ideas, hopes, goals, plans, dreams together.

And that's why we wanted to do it.

I happily announce Betty Hilton as chairman of finance.

Write it down.

Elizabeth Smithgall for Christian education.

I know the first year that we were here, I felt very, very isolated in that I was the only person who seemed to think the parish needed to expand its horizons, to do things that Christians have always done-- education, service, ministry, to have people be a part of all of that and not have it be a one man show.

He has to be the one who changes all the light bulbs.

I think it's out of place.

He ought to be directing.

He ought to be masterminding our 5 year or 10 year property plan.

I very much wanted people to think bigger than they were thinking.

And that's very scary.

That's very risky because you can't know ahead of time how it's all going to fall out.

And that's the thin ice that they and I were treading on for about a year.

I hope that you'll all come.

It's really going to be fun.

We're going to have four good Sunday evenings of-- well, we're going to try to get people to be more involved with each other here in the parish in a real way.

And I think it's good to help you all come.

6 o'clock Sunday evening.

Thank you for the fellowship that we have together here in this parish.

We thank you for the gift of your son and presence with us always, building us into a big family.

These things we pray in Jesus's name.

Amen.

ALL: Amen.

CHARLES MASON: Let the fish fry begin.

During lent, we had four Sunday evening programs.

And I was concerned whether people would rise to the occasion, would come to these, would receive what I think I have to offer to them by way of religious leadership.

OK, George, tell us a little bit about yourself.

I don't know what to say.

I've been in Lock Haven 16 years.

I came here from Magnolia, Arkansas.

Before Magnolia, we lived in Marietta, Ohio.

And before that, in Knoxville, Tennessee.

And before that, in Washington, DC.

And before that, in Bayonne, New Jersey.

And we had one child in each of the-- WOMAN: And that's why you didn't move again.

Yes, that would be the reason.

Bill and I lived in Columbus.

That's where we met.

And then we got married while we were in Columbus, and we had David while we were in Columbus.

We moved to Urbana, and we had Martha in Urbana.

And I hope we're not following your footsteps.

CHARLES MASON: Our purpose in the whole series, but especially in that first session, was to help the individuals get to know each other more personally-- that's a need in this congregation-- and to help them see that they all fit as pieces into a puzzle, without which the puzzle is not complete.

WOMAN: Oh, come.

WOMAN: I'm wondering who loves [inaudible].

I think they ought to have these puzzles.

CHARLES MASON: So we used that little exercise of making a puzzle together.

And no one of the individuals had the whole puzzle together.

He needed a piece from somebody else, but he couldn't take it.

It had to be given to him, which very much represents exactly how a parish community works.

[indistinct conversation] WOMAN: I enjoy putting puzzles together.

And it made me so cross that I couldn't get this thing-- CHARLES MASON: It really is frustrating, isn't it?

That's why I thought-- WOMAN: It made you cross that you couldn't do it by yourself.

I think that's a good point.

See, we're so used to-- I think as Americans especially, we're so used to being self-sufficient and thinking that if we just put our mind to it, we can do it ourselves.

We don't need anybody else.

CHARLES MASON: My discovery for the evening is that St. Paul's Church actually fits.

I've never assumed that before.

Isn't that interesting?

I have assumed that St. Paul's Church was sort of a collection of-- WOMAN: Odd pieces.

--of odd pieces.

Yeah.

The assumption of our exercise this evening is that the church belongs together in some kind of integral way, isn't it?

Isn't that the thing?

And I have never assumed that before.

I really never have.

But so often-- But sometimes they fit better in some families than they do in other families.

CHARLES MASON: So often-- Yes, they do.

They all have the same nature, then they don't cheat, do they?

That's been my problem with thinking about the Church, that it was my task as the pastor to help you put your square together, and then I would spend a little time, and forget your square together, then I help you put your square together.

See, but actually, your square and your square is-- Really part of the same-- It's part of my square too.

Yeah.

See, because you think I just-- We're all squares.

I mean, my helping you put your square together is helping me to put my square together, if we're doing it right.

Right?

Yeah, right.

And you're an integral part of my putting my square together just like you're an integral part of her putting her square together.

That's nice stuff.

GEORGE: --Hollywood squares and now Anglican squares.

Anglican squares.

[laughter] WOMAN: That's what you could call it.

Oh, bad news.

The four lenten series Sunday evenings have been done.

And I want to tell you that the highest attendance was 12 and the lowest attendance was seven.

I was not here one of them because I had the flu.

I'd like to say that I was a little bit disappointed that there weren't more people.

And I wonder if any of you have any feedback about the program or its publicity or its design.

Do you remember Suzy came two months ago to present it.

And I'd be interested in any reflections that any of you have on what we attempted.

I bet you, the first one was the most enjoyable, really, of all of them, of the three that we attended.

I'm sorry that more people did not attend.

CHARLES MASON: Do you have any sense of why more people didn't attend?

That's what I'm really asking.

No, I don't.

Unless it's just was something new and different and-- well, how I think about it is we're [inaudible].

CHARLES MASON: You're talking about-- I mean, I'm a little bit aware that I come in and bring all these hotshot new ideas and all this stuff.

I know.

And I know that some of the people really don't turn on to that.

And I really don't want to turn those people off, but this is my style.

If we work at it, how can we make sure that my natural tendencies just don't overwhelm the people here?

That's what we're doing.

MAN: I just wonder if-- WOMAN: We might have to add your wife.

MAN: Is this a is this really a problem?

Is it really a problem?

I don't think that most people in the church-- I mean, you said, you're some young guy that came in here with all these crazy ideas and so forth.

Maybe people say, well, he's a little wild.

But really, I don't see where this is really a problem.

I don't want this to happen, a split to happen.

It's preventative more than anything else.

When I come to this parish, after they've been used to an entirely different pastor for 20 years, I know that some of the things that I do does not meet the normal expectations of some of the members of this congregation.

And I know that when I say some things, it will cause some people anxiety.

And this congregation and I are only beginning to become honest enough with each other to let there be that anxiety and even anger out in the middle of the room when we interact, because we've always been afraid of that and we've always hidden it.

Either they have hidden it within their hearts or I have hidden it within my heart.

But that's not honest.

Dear me.

And it can never get solved there either.

MAN: And that is in conflict.

One of the things we tend to do very rapidly is personalize the conflict, blame people.

And part of the reality is that regardless of who the person is, in many situations, you could take anybody, put them in that situation, and they will be in conflict.

CHARLES MASON: A conflict management seminar for me was very helpful, just to be able to hear and spend a day considering the issues of conflict in my own life, particularly in my professional life, because there is a fair amount of conflict if change is going on.

MAN: What's the first step in exorcism?

Name the demon, right.

The first step in conflict is to name the beast.

Frequently naming the demon is all you have to do.

Frequently, in conflict, naming the conflict is all you have to do.

About half the time.

Pay attention to the name your presenter attaches to the beast.

Check to see if they are clear about what the problem is.

And that seminar drew on the techniques of the social sciences, and a Christian led it, and Christians received it and participated in it as Christians.

And it did not diminish their faith.

It enhanced their performance within their faith and their ability to help people deal with the conflicts that were involved in day and night all the time, even with amongst ourselves.

Didn't Jesus deal with conflicts?

Dear heavens, St. Paul was writing letters.

Half of his letters are dealing with-- half the content of his letters have to do with conflicts.

And the churches all there around the early church-- church has always had conflicts, whether people, they're going to be conflicts.

This is part of what I was talking about at the annual meeting when I said, I think we need to learn how to-- we've got to sharpen our aim as a congregation.

And to do that, it seems to me the leadership group, the vestry needs to work on how we do that together.

What do you think of the idea?

I've got somebody in mind who has done this.

Father Alan in Williamsport.

The vestry, the leadership of this parish that I had inherited was not one that was used to taking initiative and responsibility in leadership.

And there's a growing use of a technique of a conference in the church today to deal with specific issues.

If we're going to be a leadership group, we will have to learn to work together as a group.

And part of what I think Roger will do is to spend some time helping individuals figure out where they are, and where they are in relationship to the church, and where they are in relationship to the leadership of the church.

And those are fairly involved things.

Yeah, you don't do that just-- but unless we're talking at that level, I guess he feels that leadership will be whoever's the strongest person on the vestry or it will be all me.

And when you guys say yes or-- in that sense, I really have been an innovator here.

And I know that's been very hard for some people because, gee, if you've never been involved in Christian Leadership before, it's a shock to all of a sudden be responsible or at least partly responsible for the spiritual direction of a congregation and lay people share that responsibility.

And I know that a number of people have been quite uneasy with that.

I think whatever we do, really.

I think the reason they are willing to do it is because they know I really want them to.

And I think some of them see, and I think many of them feel like they.

I don't know what they're doing on the vestry.

They feel the need, although they don't know what they want.

What do they think they need?

Roger is a very capable person.

He has done a number of vestry conferences.

Besides this, I should say, I trust and I'm very fond of Roger.

Do you want this conference to be a time when you are with your leaders, dealing with the institutional and fabric problems of St. Paul's Church or do you want it to be a time when you were dealing with the deepening of your life in Christ as a people?

CHARLES MASON: We're not-- the institutional stuff-- I think the reason the institution isn't healthier is because the whole spiritual stuff isn't healthier.

I really think that's true.

I do not think we have a common purpose because their purpose is to have a church.

See, and my purpose is really to do something significant in the lives of people.

And I figured that's what we're doing together.

But I don't really think we share that.

We've never been able to really share that.

I have with a few, with a couple of the people, but they're very reticent, hesitant to talk about that or to own any of that as the vestry's responsibility.

They see themselves as to make sure that the pipes are fixed.

Do they know how much these kinds of questions bother you?

CHARLES MASON: About them, you mean?

No, I don't think they do.

ROGER ALLING: Well, would you perceive it as risky to let them know how much that it seems obscene to you to-- I tell you what I'll have trouble doing.

I'll tell you honestly what I have trouble doing.

I'll have trouble telling them that without judging the hell out of them.

When I let that go in myself, it'll come out like you.

That's what I'm afraid of.

And I can work on it and make sure that doesn't happen.

But that's going to be the risk for me.

I feel that to be the risk because I really do judge them for that.

I think I really do judge them for that.

The subject matter for this sharing exercise is entitled dreams and nightmares that I have about the Church.

CHARLES MASON: That begins to set the perimeter of what the day is going to be like.

Everybody's got dreams about what the best in life is, it can be, and what we hope for.

And everybody's got nightmares about what just an impossible, intolerable situation might be.

--St. Paul's isn't just necessarily going to be here forever, that it could disappear.

I guess, all my life, I'd figure, well, there'll always be in St. Paul's.

Why not?

Well, gee.

It isn't automatic.

MAN: Became active in the church.

I've seen the membership drop mainly because the older members of the Church were becoming ill and not able to attend regularly.

Some of them were passing away.

Some of them will be coming to the point where they weren't able to get out on a Sunday because of lack of transportation, and the mobility wasn't as good as it was.

And there was no bottom growth in youth.

That's been my fear.

WOMAN: Apathy?

Would you-- My deepest fear about the church-- Well, part of it is a personal inadequacy to do what is required of the pastor.

But another is that nobody will respond and that it will eternally be up to me to generate whatever happens.

Fear of lack of fulfillment of ourselves, not being adequate to church requirements and demands-- We worry about the dwindling attendance.

We're hoping for growing attendance.

That's why I think that we didn't really have very many fears.

Progression, going backwards instead of forwards.

We don't see much chance of doing that because we're thinking positively.

Father Mason started and said that his deepest fears were to personal inadequacy, and the second one that we won't respond, that we won't pick up the ministry and we won't share it with each other, that it's always his responsibility.

If someone is sick, we call him instead of going ourselves.

Someone needs to talk.

We say, well, why don't you go talk to Father Mason instead of talking to the person ourselves.

CHARLES MASON: And out of that very little exercise arose a serious sharing thing in the whole group.

Carol Brown says to me, I'm not supposed to let my right hand know what my left hand is doing.

How am I supposed to let you know that I do care about the people in this parish and the people who live next door to me?

And I do think I'm doing exactly what you're talking about.

Well, shut my mouth.

There I am.

Part of what happened at that point, I think, is that somebody said to me, yes, we're really in it with you, Charlie.

And see, I'd never really had anybody in that parish say that to me before.

And that's why I'm sure I reacted negatively at that point or a defensive way.

And that's why there was that long pause because somebody said, yes, and then we had to decide what to do next.

The question is this a comment?

But that's a real serious thing here, the conference leader-- MAN: No, stop.

CAROL: I feel like I am trying.

I feel like I am trying to help.

I am trying to minister.

But if that's one of your fears, how do I help you take care of your fears?

CHARLES MASON: I'll tell you.

Well, this is what I-- I am more excited about today than I've been about anything in a long time because just this kind of exchange can happen, Carol.

Because for you to walk up to me on Sunday morning or for me to walk up to you on Thursday afternoon and say, hey, what have you done for God lately is so bizarre as to be-- and this allows us to talk about it.

And I really appreciate you saying.

CAROL: And I don't come to you and say, well, somebody was sick and I went and talked to them for you.

I mean, and it goes on all the time.

I think you can cross that fear off.

Just knowing, Carol, that you consider how you treat other people in this parish to be of prime importance in your life makes me feel like I've done my job today.

You hear me?

And I didn't know that because you never told me.

And we need to talk about that a little more, that's all.

Because I just-- see, I have to do all the preaching.

That's one of the troubles.

And I don't know it all.

Do you see?

I hear a little bit about it here and there, but-- well, I appreciate you saying so.

I had hoped that something valuable would happen, but I didn't really expect it to be with me.

I didn't expect it to be nearly such a personal experience, or that I would be the one called upon to be open and vulnerable.

I had hoped it would happen to them.

You see, I am just like everybody else.

It was significant.

MAN: That's a clever-- that's clever.

It's really very good.

At one point, a girl said, well, now one of the things in the Bible says that I'm not supposed to let my right hand know what my left hand is doing.

How am I supposed to tell you that I really do care about the people in this parish and the other people in my life, and I'm doing what I think you're talking about, if I'm supposed to be quiet and private about that.

And there was this long, deep silence.

And I made some wisecracks, some stupid remark.

And Roger said, well, now, Charlie you maybe ought to listen to that a little.

Let's take it a little deeper.

That's why we asked him to come.

Yeah, clever.

And it was just-- MAN: That's nice.

Well, and then it went on.

And Roger was very good in terms of red power and safety as opposed to following Jesus with the cross.

Yeah.

Right.

And then we started to do some planning on how we worked on a goal for the parish and worked on some purpose, some goals and some strategies.

And it was in the middle of that that I had to leave.

So it was really-- MAN: --nice to get laid on you every now and then.

ROGER ALLING: [inaudible] better people than we've been led to believe.

Yes.

And it turns out, it turns out-- MAN: But they're all closet better people.

Well, not entirely.

No, it's that I've been, as we were talking earlier this afternoon, that I've been playing a combination of ain't it awful and Elijah alone amongst those who are faithful.

I, only I, Lord, the only good guy you got left.

I think the church is alive and well.

OK, then.

That's great.

Now I feel like I am on the edge of the unknown, having come through in a short period where every clergyman hopes his parish, or half of him hopes it will be.

But then when he gets there, the other half of them says, oh, my God, where have we come from, what are we going to do now.

MAN: What's my next step?

Yes.

MAN: Now for my next message-- CHARLES MASON: See, the point is that we aren't in the picture near as much as we used to be.

We aren't at the center anymore.

Much less so in a way I've got to trust my people in a way that I've never trusted them before-- ROGER ALLING: The church is where the action starts.

--which is really scary.

ROGER ALLING: It's not where it stops.

I mean, the way to evaluate the effectiveness of the church, you have to get an aggregate of all kinds of good things that are going on quite apart from the church and its structures and its committees and anything else like that.

Because what impact is it having in the world on, in the community, or in the area of the society where it finds itself.

You don't evaluate the church in terms of how well is the church doing.

That's churchy ...

It really does make a difference whether the church is a means or an end.

We talk, and we're very good at talking about the Church being a means, but we act like it's an end.

So it was a super good time and very helpful.

I guess it should be noted, a classic phrase that Roger could only come up with, Charlie, you ain't never going to get them back in the box again.

MAN: Wonderful.

Not been open.

Yeah, that's-- CHARLES MASON: Good business, the best business going PTA.

Best thing in the world.

I wouldn't miss it for the world.

I cannot imagine doing anything else today.

There are days when I could.

But it expresses and celebrates the whole of life in the best imaginable way.

And I even get paid for it.

Let's go down Wednesday.

What do you say?

Oh, good.

Oh, my.

Right now, there's an incredible amount of movement going on.

And I feel very, very engaged.

A year and a half, a year ago, a year and a half ago, it didn't feel like a whole lot of movement going on at all.

And I felt, oh, depressed and dispirited, as though I weren't earning my keep, as though I weren't useful.

Just it takes time for things to mature in God's good time.

And one of the things that these people are teaching me is more of a sense of stability and patience.

They really are.

That's something I need to learn.

I got flash, but I don't have as much stability as they have.

And that's much needed in our world today.

My dear.

They can use a little flash, but I can use the stability.

Come on, guys.

Let's call it a night.

Charlie Mason is not everyone's cup of tea.

Some may find him, and this documentary record of his struggles, to be disturbing or even offensive.

But Mason is engaged in a very real and always timely struggle.

The problems of leadership and change.

His field is religion, but the issues of uncertainty and conflict are familiar to anyone with leadership responsibilities.

And this documentary allows us an insider's look into the process of leadership development.

And often particularly difficult task in the religious arena.

As Charlie Mason works his way toward the discovery that leadership can and perhaps must be shared, we can observe and learn.

It is a rare opportunity.

Charlie Mason left Lock Haven, Pennsylvania, for a larger city in the Midwest in 1984.

He is still facing many of the same problems-- church finances, personal and professional uncertainties.

But if our conversations with him are an accurate measure, he continues to bring substantial energy and dedication to his profession and to his life.

The documentary you've just seen has this important feature-- it fixes one set of points in a vast flow of events and presents them slowly and in detail, so that the development of Charlie Mason's story is understandable and as compelling as the producers originally found it.

It was a rare opportunity.

And as a producer for Penn State Public Broadcasting, I was delighted to be a part of it.

For the Pennsylvania parade, I'm PJ O'Connell.

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