♪ > > This week in the Wheelhouse coming from of college admissions.

And federal funding > > for Connecticut Public.

I'm Frankie Graziano.

This is the Wheelhouse so that connects politics.

The people we got your weekly dose of politics in Connecticut and beyond right here.

And right now we're going to show you some reaction to what it's like to get into that Ivy League School of your dreams as a prayer right there.

And and a realization.

And family.

And she's just got into Yale ♪ and you hear that.

> > A song dedicated to you out.

Yale, of course.

♪ > > Mom, she got > > Kristine lead 2018 reaction.

Video, a noisy celebration racked up over 1 million views on YouTube.

Since 2018.

There's been a lot of shakeups in higher education, including a 2023 Supreme Court decision.

The band race conscious admissions last year.

We also saw multiple universities like Columbia, Northwestern settle with the Trump administration for millions of dollars.

Amid accusations of Anti-Semitism or at least that's what was lobbed at them this hour.

We're talking about the impacts of federal policy and politics and students and the world of higher Ed with us to do it today.

Michael Roth of the president of Wesleyan University.

Michael, thank you so much for being here today.

> > My pleasure.

Glad to be with you.

So glad to have you here.

President Roth and also joining me in the studio, good friend of mine to my right.

> > Glossy coup hill, your college associate professor of politics and government at the University of Hartford.

Good Morning, Frank.

In go hawks, go hogs and glad to see you.

This morning is going to be good conversation for us to have folks.

How's it going on your college campus?

What about the culture there?

Is it an inclusive college campus?

Jealous hit us up on our YouTube streamer.

Give us a call.

8, 8, 8, 7, to 0 9, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 7, 2, 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, President Roth.

I'm going all the way back to the 60's here.

Let's go back to 1961.

That's when President John F Kennedy used affirmative action for the first formal time in an executive order to prohibit federal contractors from discriminating based on race in 1964.

The Civil Rights Act prohibit employment discrimination based on race.

This apologize.

excuse me, the supplied to colleges and universities.

Tell us more in your view why this is so important.

This happening back in the 60's.

> > Well, I think executive orders other kinds of in the strait of actions we're taking to prevent what was pervasive discrimination and academia and the workplace against black people and against people of color.

More generally.

And those actions were really aim to set a level playing fields so that companies be penalized if they were found to actively discriminate black applicants or people who apply for a jobs who were coming from a minority groups of various kinds.

But really the biggest issue rougher.

African-americans that's different from affirmative action, which Institute of Policy actively seek out people who have been prevented them from groups that had been previously discriminated against.

And what I just said, you hear my hesitation.

I started to say people who had been previously discredit against and there's the rub because and the people who actively help may not have themselves suffer discrimination, but they belong to groups historically been discriminated against and affirmative action and education and in the business world and in a truck and other places was meant to counteract the pervasive effects of a racial discrimination.

actively finding people to the middle to contract with from historically underrepresented and historically discriminated against groups.

And I think it had a very powerful effect on some institutions, doesn't take you want to see that its effects were kind of small.

But the backlash against it was large because white applicants who said, hey, I didn't discriminate against anybody.

I'm 18 years old.

I'm just a white working class person who's applying to college or to law school.

Why should I not have the same advantage as a person from a historically discriminated against group.

I myself, that person might never discriminate against anybody.

And the answer was, well, you live in a country where there's been prevents of racist discrimination and the policy of the country and its institutions shouldn't be to counteract that with purposeful action and not just having a level playing field and now, of course, we've had a backlash against that and the the really the only discrimination, the federal government, these days seems to worry about is discrimination against white people.

There have been I appreciate that nuance and that distinction that you made there.

> > President Roth and I want to talk specifically about affirmative action.

The law, but a lot of spring course cases around that there was 1978 case about the quota system at the University of California Davis in 2003, there were suits against the University of Michigan and in 2023, the Supreme Court invalidated admissions programs.

That's why we're doing the show today at Harvard University and the University of North Carolina effectively banning race conscious admissions.

There a little of little nuance there in terms of how the it connects to affirmative action.

But can you walk us through some of these arguments that are being made in court coming in just a little nuance to what president wrong said a bit earlier.

Think is also important.

> > Think people really recognize today the extent to which institutions of higher is employment opportunities were closed off to black people and other people of color.

And but not just people of color, but also women, right and religious minorities.

And so the impact of the Civil Rights Act, which along with the Voting Rights Act like counties, 2 of the most important pieces of legislation passed by Congress in terms of fundamentally and radically transform me.

Art country can't be underestimated.

I think of myself as someone who really stands on the show to shoulders of the people who fought to open up opportunity in this society and the one knew once I would offer about what President Ruff's it early is that even high achieving black and Latino students and other students of color.

We're being denied access and opportunity in higher.

Ed high-achieving skew workers were being denied access and opportunity, especially in the trades and other areas of employment which had a very detrimental impact on the opportunities for blacks and others to succeed in this society.

And so.

These kinds of programs expanded opportunity greatly.

The attorney affirmative action that, you know, the court, the couple of years ago, been something that have been going on for decades.

It wasn't something that just started most recently.

The resistance to the efforts to really, I think, really structural restructure this racial hierarchy that existed in our society is with these programs really about and what they I think we're quite helpful with doing that.

They succeed as far as they need to know.

But the opposition to those programs from the very start was there.

It was very strong.

What's amazing about even one of the first sort of relief for Supreme Court decisions on this cub.

A key decision itself.

What people don't realize is that the white student who was denied access, actually, there were other whites who were accepted ahead of him who didn't even have the same.

See you who didn't have the grade point average in some of the other things that we, you do consider important for admission and so this idea that these programs have benefit people who are and qualify, who really don't have the skills or the abilities to be in high Ridge is just nonsense, but they resonated with a lot of people in our society.

And I think that's where we're at right now with the attacks.

And as you mentioned, women to and then there's also people of different genders.

People identified by doing genders that are experiencing this kind of > > sexism right now and and it's happening at the federal level to around competition college based competition, things like that as well.

Yeah.

I mean, the success of these programs over the years is that they increased access and opportunity.

Even someone like me love that opening.

So the video you show my mother was the one who did the screaming because he was getting me out of the House.

But at the same time, I mean, these programs have really dramatically expanded opportunity, not just with people of color, but also for women.

In fact, too, greatest beneficiary affirmative action programs have not been people of color.

The of actually been women.

Michael, what policy is white women and particularly thank you for that, Michael, tell us what policies you have in place at Wesley and to ensure a diverse student body.

> > Well, like most colleges, universities or select sorry.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Let me let me jump in your I made a mistake in the way that I ask you that I still want to talk about pre 2023 here because I want to help people understand how we're sort of reacting to the news.

I support the beef in the last few years before that you made any kind of policy changes in the last few years.

What did you have in place before the Supreme Court decision comes down?

We've always had a word we would call a holistic admissions practice.

That is we try to understand the students as best we can.

> > people and not just as test takers of our great dinners, a and or people have to have certain advantages that give them a leg up and the competition to get into colleges and universities.

And so we wanted to have a diverse student body, which meant for us, you know, more or less the same number of men and women and I think every little bit of a difference about the front action and women because it's harder for women to get into a highly selective colleges, universities and for men because the as a rule, better prepared academically.

We wanted to have her a campus and wears rough parity with men or women and people.

Now, of course not binary students are part of that mix and and people from different racial and ethnic groups and but we did have, quote, is we didn't have boxes to be checked and we said, okay, we have X number Latinos are X number of white students at the But we very conscious of trying to have a diverse student body.

Wesley, in very actively sought out black students in the early 70's late 60's and kind of famously so because the result wasn't as come by as the think the administrators at the time thought like they can they want to and sot applicant people who seek Wesley and what we found a black in different cities in the Northeast and when they came to us and they said, oh, great, it's not really a wonderful place for us here.

You know, it's still a historically white institution with all the prejudices that are involved in that.

And so these 2 should have to adjust in the late 60's early 70's as it wasn't just a place for white men and white Christian men, really because there were very few Jews allowed into.

And so say early to Mid 60's and that those changes happen over time in anticipation of the Supreme Court decision, which we we're not surprised when against a positive for a nerve action.

We were looking at other mechanisms not to achieve racial diversity, which is now illegal and United States.

But to have the broad notion of a diverse student body that we think facilitates learning.

And we're we're pretty clear.

I think everybody recognizes if you're in a room with everybody thinks like you or has the same background you have, you're going to learn less than if you're in a room with people have lots of different ideas and come from different life experiences and so on.

We did have to adjust.

We don't know the race of the applicants until after we've closed that of the class.

After in the afterword done with admissions.

But we do see couch students from justice in the Northeast or the West Coast cities where we have a lot of people.

But we seek students from all over the country who could add to that learning community.

Have we have because we believe that all our students learn more when they are in the company of people who have different life experiences and different points of view.

> > I'm going to say this without sounding like I'm casting judgment on any university.

Is there anybody that's having to do this work?

But a long way to help me kind of parse that through because you have to do this at the University of Hartford to when ever you involved in any kind departmental decisions.

But it sounds like a lot of work to have to do now to try to make sure that you are having what President Roth is talking about, the diverse ideas and experiences happening in your student body.

Yeah, I'm really amazed that the way in which the admissions office tries to navigate all of this.

> > The one thing I will add about, you know, the description that prison rough just provided is that, you know, for me in the classroom, I've watched the University of Hartford really trance.

Well, when I got there over 20 years ago, we were probably at about 18, 19% students of color.

Now we're about 40% students of color and what are the things that I really appreciate about the diversity of the classroom and all of the things that the president suggested about the range of used the range of experiences that students bring.

But it's also something that the students themselves value as well.

And so when I'm having discussions with my students, they have an appreciation for the fact that they are in a room with people who are racially ethnically different from them who don't share their own religious views or perspective.

Some of them are on the right.

Some of them on the left.

But I try to create that space where we can all engaged because this is a pluralistic society and they recognize more than some of the people who have attacked these efforts to diversify our institutions.

They recognize more than those policymakers to that.

This has value in that.

This is important and that this is.

The way in which we build an inclusive democracy.

And I think they clearly recognize > > Let's save that for later that.

because I want to keep talking about kind of what's happening now and and how the reactions are going to come in after what's happening in 2023. and these great conversations you are having in the classroom.

Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson says in 2023 in a dissenting opinion of the UNC case.

But deeming race relevant in law does not make it so in life.

Absolutely.

You know, often the talk to my students about how biological raising the social construction of race in 2 different things right?

> > Unfortunately, many of us believe the biological race is real when it actually isn't that the social construction of race is real and that has consequences for life chances and life opportunities right.

And so look at the impact of this and I know we're going probably get to a more detailed discussion about this.

But one of the things we've clearly recognizes that the impact of this, especially at some of the more institutions, the ones that you really have.

It's more difficult to get into that.

They actually reject a high percentage of students which my understanding is roughly the average is about, you know, 60%.

of students are accepted to most institutions to the average acceptance rate.

But if these elite institutions right that except the race is much lower and what's happened in the aftermath of this decision is that the numbers, students of color or actually declining that some of the most elite institutions in the most difficult ones to get And it also is having an impact on the diversity of the student population on those campuses and black students in particular be impacted by that.

And at the end of the day with a means also, is that access to opportunities, especially some of the most prestigious some of the most influential jobs in our society are being restricted to being limited to mostly whites, for example.

And I think that's very intentional in terms of what this project is ultimately about.

> > Fascinating viewpoint there.

And I'd like to share another fascinating viewpoint that sort of looked into the future.

And I'm gonna share this.

With Michael Roth going back to 2003 in the case of Barbara Glued or against the University of Michigan Law School, former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote in the opinion, we expect that 25 years from now says in 2003 to start about 2028.

The use of racial preferences will no longer be necessary where 2026 2 years away from that predicted sort of progress line from the late justice.

Where do we stand now?

> > Well, it's it's it seems clear to me that the forces of a racism are still a very intense and this country.

And in fact, they've been liberated by the current administration to be expressed more publicly.

> > I think > > there is a debate.

The I think reasonable people about whether you should think about admissions.

It's a level of the individual or the level of the classroom where society more generally.

So let's let's take missions.

men and women, as I said before, it's harder for women to get into an elite school.

Then Furman and and it for the individual the girls applying, you know, for my skull.

She's not there.

A buddy gets an as you know, he's getting a B. Plus is I'm getting A's and he's going to get into Wesley in because borders and it's it's not fair to me as an individual.

> > Ice ice up with eyes with that.

I think that if you think about it, the level of individual.

> > She passed on like this or if it's a race, she came in ahead of him.

But Ed Missions and College University isn't just a race where you get better prize.

You're actually trying to construct learning environment were people benefit from the presence of others who have different experiences, different points of view, different priorities and John.

And so if you're looking at it that way, you want to create opportunities for groups.

You want to create opportunities for learning in different classrooms.

and residential camp says you want to have a residential experience that is going compliment C classroom experience.

All those things are not about who won the race, who got the highest got the highs.

That city's court.

It's much more nuanced than that.

And right now in our country, it's very clear that anti-black racism and racism against other groups, people of color is still very strong.

And so I wish that we have the legal right as colleges, universities to construct our classes.

With that in mind with the notion that, you know, a white kid just has an easier road ahead of him.

Most of the time.

Then most black applicants.

Some people say yes, but you are giving affirmative action preferences to the the of of of a doctor, a lawyer who went to private school in New York because they're black.

That seems unfair.

It does seem unfair at the level of individual.

And so I understand that argument.

But I think the current regime so concerned about anti-white racism because the current regime does not like the world and which diversity is given us in a very high priority was given strong value.

The current regime really wants to see white people rule.

Not because they're the most qualified, but because they're white and president rock, let's look at a racial makeup here.

I think it was The New York Times recently reported an 8%.

> > Increase of underrepresented minority groups at public flagship universities in 2024, the same analysis shows a large decrease enrollment of black and Latino freshman at some of the nation's top private institutions.

What does that say to you?

> > Well, I think it's some of the large flat and the flagship universities are great.

And and and some ways to get you may get a better education with people who are working hard.

And in Austin, word, Champaign, Urbana, or and were ever that flag Chavez in Berkeley and you will going and Ivy League school and nobody goes to class and everybody gets an a so the flagships are really great they're great institutions.

I think what's happening are some of the students who might have gotten into Yale or Harvard in the past are not getting in.

And so they they they're next choice is still a great choice to go to what's a Berkeley or UConn or Wesley and and and they they they're taking that choice.

And I think that that can happen also because in some of the flak in some states, they take a percentage of the high school graduates who have the highest scores.

Let's say and that and that will include a height.

The top echelon and mostly black high schooler, mostly Hispanic high school and and that out that creates the diversity inflection.

You might not see and Ivy League school, a lot of the schools and work.

Wesley is like this, too.

We have doubled down on socioeconomic diversity.

Not because it's a proxy for race because that's illegal.

And I don't think any of us want to be doing something illegal.

But we do want offer opportunity.

2 people who don't have those opportunities handed to them by their family and the wealth.

The family has.

And so what you've seen in many colleges, universities that historically have not had a lot of Pell eligible students that is low income students that they have higher and higher percentage of Pell eligible students.

You see this, it elite schools like Princeton or yeah.

And some liberal arts colleges.

And I think that's a good thing for the country.

It's not the same as an anti racist practices, but it is certainly salutary effort to create opportunity for people who are denied opportunity otherwise from Connecticut Public Radio.

This is the Wheelhouse.

I'm Frankie Graziano.

You've been listening to Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University.

> > And glossy coup professor at the University Park for the not going anywhere.

They're going to stick with us after the break, we'll talk about how higher education has responded after the Supreme Court ended affirmative action.

Are you concerned about higher education now?

Give us a call.

8, 8, 8, 70, 9, 6, 7, 7, ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ This is the Wheelhouse from Connecticut Public Radio.

I'm Frankie Graziano.

Earlier we talked about how college admissions and student bodies have changed since the 2023 Supreme Court decision struck down affirmative action.

Now we're looking at how higher education has reacted and implications for students in Connecticut and beyond.

Back with us.

Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University.

And glossy coup associate professor of politics and government at the University of Hartford.

Thank you both for sticking with us.

A lot we just heard from President Roth.

We were talking about how Wesley, in a sort of reacting to what's happening at the Supreme Court level.

What say you?

Yeah, I just wanted to at sort of a nuance to what President Roth said about this sort of raise away from any kind of racial racial preference to > > a class base preference.

And I think he's absolutely right that it's an imperfect shift in terms of creating the kind of diversity.

But the other thing that's really interesting when you sort of dig into the data, nothing ultimately as we explore what is or at least try to understand more what has happened in these these years and go over these last few years and going into the future to be interesting to see because one of the Schiff says the president is absolutely right.

A lot of these sort of high-performing students of color are no longer even apply to some of these more prestigious universities.

And they are, in fact, shifting away and moving into really good institutions.

And again, I think he's right about the flex it or not bad choices.

But what's interesting is that we also know in our society with that also means is that those, you know, you delete institutions are also pathways to great jobs in government, great jobs and businesses.

And so we look, I think, into the near future, it also may mean that corporate boards, government jobs and institutions will also see a real shift and that they will become even more wider in less divers in those areas which will have impact on all of our lives.

And so I think this is why this battle is a battle worth fighting because I think this is really key to transforming this a sign in the way it needs to be transformed into a much more inclusive democracy.

I wanted to react kind of slow to that because I think that's really important to sort of under.

> > Score that you share that perspective because it seems like it at least what president brought the saying that this is something that's very intentional, at least the administration and the federal government right now.

And of course, from the Supreme Court of the United States.

Michael, I want to ask you question here.

One way.

Well, first, let me actually invite people to join the conversation of with us ramming a great conversation today.

Folks can hit us up on their YouTube star YouTube stream more than give us a call.

8, 8, 7 to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, ask the University of President question here.

Ask of the last a question here as well or even me.

> > One way to do Mcmahon may just have been from.

Yeah.

You got that.

One of the things that I felt in reading the Supreme Court decision.

I came out.

I wasn't a surprise.

I mean, it kind of the court had to put an before.

But and I'm not a lawyer.

You're not used read a lot of the but but Iran decision and that what I took away just as citizen as of this was that they said you can't give somebody a preference because of the group they belong to because that's an honor and for effort, like if I hang out with a got a lot of guys who play basketball really well, they're not going to give me a basketball scholarship as I hang out with them and the same group of 7 go to the movie together.

Maybe it's only the individual gets should get the benefit.

So I read is decisions.

You shouldn't get a benefit because of the group to which law.

Now, all these as highly selective colleges, universities or the Ivy League schools.

We've practiced legacy admissions by definition, you let somebody in because of their parents or their grandparents.

And Wes, it was like this that we had a small pot group, a group of maybe 8% But we didn't hit a few people in every year because their parents, one of the grandparents when that and so I read this the Supreme Court decision then I wrote to night director and my admissions records.

And yet we.

How could be in good conscience keep legacy admissions?

Which by definition is they can get benefit because the group you're in, not because of something you did like your father played football.

So you get it.

You get in even though you don't play ball.

It's crazy when we did away with that legacy admissions that month.

and I thought wrongly that all the Ivy League schools would have to do this because it's so obviously a critical.

On the one hand say, well, we have to treat everybody as individuals except the people we have in our in our club.

and it's some of these schools.

It's 20%.

It's more than that.

they have not changed.

We have changed.

And of course, my love my word altogether.

Happy.

But I think they saw that it was more.

It was more fair, given what we have to do another to mention, I just want to talk quickly about this, though, Michael, when the when you're doing this and you're looking at the calculus that you guys have a number in mind of how many kids?

> > We're actually benefiting from legacy admissions or the percentage you knew about at a different school.

Did you know how many at West?

Yeah, it was about 8% less than 8% white.

And so so and it was it does worry because what happened would be it like somebody is Kate would apply and they didn't get in and the latter would say something like even though we tried to help you out, your kid wasn't smart enough to get was like a debt.

Double and salt say they would call me an hour.

> > So I know I was glad to be done with it, but up, it's also so obviously unfair and people say, well, there are a lot of unfair things in life and it's OK, it's loyalty.

But the idea that it.

> > You know, it harbored word at yelled where they less than 5% of the people who apply right that they have to tip it.

of relatives I mean, it's it's unconscionable that we don't know now I have who was related to a west in person when they apply the and just like we don't know their race.

And I think we're down to about 5% instead of a percent or 6 years.

Real quickly, frankly.

So one of the things I do in my class to have this discussion about diversity, equity, inclusion and > > I talked to students about how universities have routinely accepted athletes who don't meet the qualifications.

minutes to university legacies is because president or office said, but also the children of major donors and contributors will get some preference some time and finally the to the faculty and staff, right.

And the one that the students reject the most are the legacies.

But then I have a discussion about okay here.

Some objective criteria, the meritocracy, the idea these are the things that people who get into university should get into and talk about things like grades classes you've taken letters of recommendation, the men of the essay you write for the institution, you're, you know, prior internships or other experience in this long list of, quote, unquote, objective criteria.

And with the students quickly recognize is that they're really not objective, that they are class bias themselves.

And so as president, a rock to suggest that this is just not easy doing what universities pride themselves on doing, which is creating institutions in which not all of the kids come from the same class background that all of the kids.

And so for me, at least this fight over the use of things like race is not a fight that should be abandoned because I think if we're going to really make the kind of continue the kind of transformation and made it possible for someone like me who grew up in the low fat dependent single parent household to attend the university.

I know that what the 64 65 acts that were passed by Congress did was they?

They helped to change the society.

But a person like me could find access and opportunity in this edition of higher education.

You said earlier class based enrollment.

It sounds like there's some sort of economic.

I don't know if affirmative action is a word, but there's some sort of.

> > Conscious now towards economics in terms of admissions now to try to make sure that you have some kind of diversity in the student body.

So what does that entail are people offering free room and board are is the is there may be a threshold to which people can qualify.

Tells me the university's new president refer speak in more detail about this.

But, for example, looking at one socioeconomic background as a sort of way of giving the thinking about granting opportunity to attend the university.

> > And there are other indicators of the measures you can look at.

But ultimately the issue of race, though, is one that deeply troubling problem in our society that even class based solutions will not generate the kind of outcomes that will create the kind of diversity we need to see at our institutions.

And we're not even having a conversation about the faculty at these institutions as well or the curriculum at these institutions.

When we get the students there, which often lag far behind what our student populations look > > Ap has colleges enroll in like.

record numbers of low-income students.

They're also finding that economic diversity is increased.

University still saw decreases in the enrollment of black students.

Let's get you into the conversation here with all saying President Roth and what the law just mention.

And now those stats were getting from the Associated Press.

What situation like?

> > Well, beloved, I think completely right about it's not a substitute for race-based affirmative action > > but that didn't race based.

Affirmative action is illegal and so I that's the law of the land right now.

But I think I think it's a mistake.

But, you that the elections have consequences.

And one of the consequences is the the Supreme Court justices are appointed by the president.

> > And I think that the the I applaud the the X socioeconomic diversity that and the gains in that area that have been made.

I think it's it's really important.

> > And in the end because colleges, universities or highly selective when they used the criteria blow was just talking about.

I mean, they arc de Carli very heavily with well.

And so I'm trying to figure out how students make the best use of the resources available to them as an indicator of how they'll do income.

That's our job.

My my the guy who runs admissions that Wesley in he was on a full-ride as a student here when he was a kid he has, you know, that deep sympathy and interest in giving opportunities to people who have been deprived those opportunities and other opportunities at young people.

My head of fundraising alumni relations as an immigrant from Haiti who also has life changed like getting a free ride to Wesley and when he was a young person.

So I think having people in positions of power like that.

Whoever commitment to diversity within the law.

But a commitment to diversity that provide opportunities for people who might otherwise not have get a rich kid who everything in front of them and they use some of the stuff in front of the Mets.

Nice.

But if you get a kid who goes to high school to really challenge when they don't have a lot of opportunities and the seat those out they make the most of them.

They may not have the scores as another person, but they've shown more potential than a person who was as a born on 3rd base and think they did a triple.

So we look for those folks and we work with organizations like West that really find folks in rural America and sometimes in cities who would have just not have the opportunities to thrive.

We take bets on them and most the time they do very well here, staying with the idea of economic diversity, some schools like MIT, Princeton now actually offering free tuition.

> > Or at least that's what they're saying in January, Yale announced that allow kids to go for free if a student comes from a household that makes under $200,000 in that 2026.

27 academic year.

What do you do it, Wesley?

And what?

What are some ways that you could sort tackle this issue?

> > Well, you know, I asked Mike Mike for can we have a slowing like that?

If you make less than acts, you know, it's free you know, our it's the fine print is so important on these things because if if you and if you make less than $100,000 see is probably going to be free room board and tuition and that we don't have any loans we don't put in want of anybody's packages and we meet the financial needed anyone we accept.

So if you are accepted to us and we think you can't afford to pay tuition based on a formula that is shared lots of schools, you don't pay tuition, you don't pay room and board and the wealthiest universities have made these announcements.

I think they're great.

Great announcement we don't know exactly how many people, too that it applies to because the most like to schools are overpopulated with the richest Americans.

So you could say it's referred those to people who make less than but that exaggerated.

Is that bad?

I mean, places like yell and even Princeton, which is notoriously tilted to the wealthy for a long time, they really made an effort to say we're increasing the numbers of low-income students and that's just increasing the numbers.

But giving those people support because there's a lot of research on how schools like we re admitted these low-income kids and that they don't support them once they're there.

And it's, you know, it's that they're not used to the environment and the same way that guy for prep school would be used to it.

You also have to not just make it free but provide a level of support to create what we started talking about the beginning and inclusive community where everybody feels they belong whatever their economic background of the racial back, whatever their religious preferences that they feel they belong to community, which they can > > About 10 minutes left in learn.

the to go to a quick break and among invite folks to give us a call after the break.

As we are running out of time here today, 88 7 to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, is the number 8, 8, 7, to 0, 9, 6, 7, 7, Michael off and the last week.

Who will be back for one more segment after these words.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ This is the Wheelhouse from Connecticut Public Radio.

I'm Frankie Graziano College campuses are historically in arena for political debate and protest since President Donald Trump was re-elected to the White House, though threats of funding polls have been lobbed at university presidents over anti-Israel protests.

Students are also contending with the prospect of federal law enforcement showing up on campus to help us understand how school administrators and students are coping at this time.

Michael Roth, the president of Wesleyan University.

And glossy coup, associate professor of politics and government at the University of Hartford, Columbia University.

And the Trump administration.

Michael reached a deal last year.

The Restore federal funding and research grant money.

The university a big payout, 200 million dollars.

The federal government over 3 years, an additional 21 million dollars to resolve alleged civil rights violations against Jewish employees.

You have been particularly outspoken on this settlement saying in July of last year on PBS, the White House as a servant determine how students should be disciplined at a private university.

This is massive overreach.

Why is it a massive overreach in your thought?

> > Well, typically and there's a acquisition of a civil rights violation, rather title 6 to 10, a line.

There's an investigation is a finding of fact.

And then there are meetings between the institution and the government to determine what would be appropriate remedies and trauma stations and none of that stuff.

It just went in with big big stick out hundreds of millions of dollars.

You see the system, it's billion dollars.

And now I think now Harvard's a billion dollars a threatening him with the idea that the protecting protecting your students is ludicrous to me.

I mean, is the first Jewish president of west in a we have a after pro-Palestinian protests on campus?

You have active pro Israel people on campus, you know, and and and I was a difference between somebody who is Jewish and somebody who is pro-Israel, correct.

There is.

And we have pro is we have Jewish pro-Palestinian.

People can do so and we will still have, of course, pro pro Israel people on campus who are dedicated > > the society and culture of Israel.

I think that the government has been trying to well, we've been attacking civil society in general, even taking colleges, universities.

They didn't act and law firms.

They've been attacking media outlets, as you well know, all of this is to chill speech.

I think it's very important over the next few months that Americans take back our democracy from this government overreach and take the moment just describe are doing this democracy Twenty-twenty 6 program and democracy summer of this year where where?

Where encouraging colleges universities across the country to have their students, parks defended Moxie by participating in it.

And I think that the Trump administration has engaged in a kind of extortion and against colleges, universities trying to get them to make deals to satisfy a the current regime.

What I think we should be doing is getting citizens to understand how to participate in the electoral system between now and November.

However, they want to vote.

Republican Democrat Independent.

I don't.

It's not my business.

We are now hundreds of colleges, universities that are incentivizing their students to participate in emerging democracies.

The 200 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.

It's a great year for young people to say I am going to be an active citizen in America.

I'm not going to be a passive observer of governmental overreach.

Hard to top that.

I mean that I think he you know how it moves over C of I heart for helping you.

> > Tell students to sort of like a look ahead here.

I know you're trying to moderate the Converse of means a lot of times, but he's talking about democracy summer here.

What what are you thinking about?

I mean, for me, that activity takes place takes place in all of my classrooms.

I mean, teach p****** political science.

I > > do.

American politics is the brought some move feel I teach about American national government, a teachable campaign elections and voting behavior.

Any student who's taking a class with me knows that.

Talk about the importance of civic engagement, especially by young people.

I often try to remind them that if you feel alienated in this political system, you know, some of it is a product of the fact that young people are not as engaged as they need to be in order to make the case for why they're interest in need should not be peripheral but be center a centerpiece of what happens in our government and decisions are being made.

Our students care a lot about things like the Often I hear from them that they're the only generation with, you know, that that is had to regularly do mass shooting, you know, preparation, which is not anything I had to do.

as a student at that age to, you know, the exorbitant cost of higher education is just out of control and President really appreciate what Wesleyan is trying to do with making access and opportunity for students there.

I imagine if I were coming out at this point in trying to go to college, it would be a tough decision because of the affordability issue.

But I think ultimately lead to address those kinds of issues in those kinds of concerns.

Students need to become engaged in the final point I'll make is that I've been involved with the work with Connecticut to 50 is well lit, especially with the emphasis on K through 12 and work with young people in trying to create materials to.

It's the focus on the 200 50th anniversary of the declaration of and not just saying that some bullets exactly.

But with a with a with a vision of what kind of future do they want to create American?

I think that's what's really important.

So anyone is taking a class with me.

Should walk away with it.

That sense that I really care about my students, but also say to them, is that I won't be here 30 years from now, probably.

But you will be here and you need to do the work of creating the kind of society.

But you want to live it We have less than 90 seconds left in the show.

So I do want to address this part of it and do it quickly.

There is the demographic Cliff looming, which could mean that enrollment drops the colleges and universities in the coming years.

You may be already dealing with this at Wesley and > > how long can these school some of these schools afford to alienate people of color?

That's something they choose to do or at least.

> > Try to assist you some kind of effort where they're making their student body diverse.

Well, as you said before, most colleges, universities take most of the people who apply.

And and I it's going to be a tough road for many small schools in the going that forward.

> > We have been fitted in the United States from international students coming here to study.

They've made a huge contribution not only to the schools are in for the country at large.

I think that there'll be some consolidation and higher education.

We're a small school.

We have, you know, 15,000 applicants for only spots.

So we're what we're looking for is to make sure that we make we maintain and cultivated diverse student body in the face of the demographic and political challenge.

> > And you got a minute left here.

Can you protect those international students that we've we've heard from many international students, either.

They're talking through us to a pseudonym or they're not going on the record.

What can you do to protect those?

You're talking about Democratic challenges are policy challenges, challenge that you have?

Yes.

> > Yeah.

We want them to feel at home right now.

It's one of the reasons people come to America's because we're welcoming country.

We have been a hospitable place and when our students come from China or India or Latin America or wherever the in Korea, Japan, when they come here, they feel they're at home.

There is much about being a Wesley in as somebody has come from Brooklyn or from Ohio and and that's a great feeling and they get launched in the world with the feeling that they can do anything they want such an important conversation we had with President Michael Roth at the University at Wesleyan University.

> > Thank you so much for joining us this hour for the whole show.

I pleasure.

Thank you.

Good quality.

Time together.

President appreciate, of course, good quality.

Time with my good buddy Bill last So says professor at the University of Hartford.

Thank you for coming on the show.

Thanks for having me on today.

Show was produced by tally Ricketson.

It was a great one edited by Patrick Scahill.

Technical producer is Dylan racist rants.

Thank you so much to our interns for helping us out on the show.

Happy birthday to Megan Boone for helping us out on the show.

Thank you so much.

Download the Wheelhouse anytime on your favorite podcast app.

Frankie Graziano.

This is the Wheelhouse.

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