(guest laughing) - No, no.

we're not gonna do that tomorrow on television.

(rhythmic music) (Jerome laughing) (guest speaking faintly) (audience cheering and applauding) - [Audience Member] Yeah!

- Hello, and welcome to another episode of "A Slice of the Community."

I'm your host, Jerome Moore, and today, we have a live, in-studio audience, and we are joined by Dr.

Sayward.

She gave me the permission to call her Amy, so there's no disrespect to Doctor from Middle Tennessee State University, and we have Dr.

Williams from Tennessee State University.

I already told y'all, I'm a graduate of MTSU, Dr.

Lea, sorry, so we're gonna get prefaced at MTSU today.

(chuckles) And that's all right, that's okay.

- It's all good.

- Well, thank both of y'all for joining me today.

How y'all feeling?

- Great, thanks for having us.

- Y'all feeling good?

Y'all feeling good?

- Feel really good.

- How did you all feel about the screening, the documentary, "The American Revolution"?

You all are American Democracy Project, you know, American history, history professors, like, how did y'all feel about the excerpt, and just based on your expertise?

- It actually took me back to when I was in college, the first Ken Burns documentary about the Civil War, watching that in class, and thinking that this was a lot different than the documentaries that I'd watched coming before, and super excited about this on the eve of the 250th anniversary, or the semiquincentennial.

(Jerome chuckling) - You almost missed about 30 years.

That's all right, this is 30.

(Amy laughing) How about you, Dr.

Lea?

How'd you feel about the excerpt that you seen and had a chance to watch?

- I enjoyed what I saw.

I was kind of excited about it, and I was thinking, "How long is this gonna be?"

And someone said, "About 11 hours."

- So 12, yeah, like, yeah.

- Okay.

- [Jerome] So it's a... - So when I heard that, I was like, "This gonna be 24 for me," (Jerome laughing) because sometimes I watch programs, and then sometimes they watch me, right?

- Yeah.

(laughs) (Learotha laughing) - But I was excited about it, because we haven't had anything, at least in my memory, that delves into the American Revolution, so it's timely and it's very much needed.

- And I threw this first question to you, Amy, as far as when we talk about the American Revolution, and even post-American Revolution, the identity of an American and a citizen, how would you have defined it in that era of time, going through the American Revolution, and even post-American Revolution era?

- One of the things I loved about the documentary was it talked about the Americans who chose to fight, to join the revolution, were willing to imagine something different, that they were able to sort of look beyond everything they'd learned about, everything they had experienced as subjects of the British Empire, to imagine something different, and I think that is probably the key element for Americans.

So certainly, the folks in the documentary, you know, John Adams is not thinking about equality for women, not thinking about emancipation of enslaved people, but those ideas, the idea of imagining other prove contagious.

- Right, how about you, Dr.

Lea?

The same question.

- Something similar, and then the very last word you said made a light bulb come on, 'cause I remember when we studied the American Revolution in college, our professor talked about how the founders feared a contagion of liberty, right?

So you have people who are engaged in this revolution, who, you know, for them, the definition of freedom might not have been the same, but they were united on the fact that they needed to break away from Great Britain.

But one of the things that I focus on in my class is when we talk about this period, you know, the motives of folks.

Why did they join the patriots?

On another hand, why would some Black folks join the British?

So the motives, and I think as I watched the documentary, I would like to see it probe a lot deeper in terms of what made a Virginian decide to unite with somebody from Pennsylvania when their interests are very much different?

- Yeah, I wanna dive in that a little deeper, that the idea of what freedom and democracy meant to different people in that time, but before we do that, we partnered with Johnson Learning Center, an MMPS school here, right in Nashville.

We had some of the students answer this question as well, and so we're gonna play a roll-in of one of the students from Johnson answering what does democracy mean to them?

- What's up, my name is Austin Harris, and I attend Johnson Learning Center.

I think being a part of democracy means being able to have your own opinion on who represents us and makes our decisions without being judged.

- And so when we think about, first of all, it takes bravery to get on that camera and answer that question, especially for a high school student.

When we think about post-American Revolution, when we talk about freedom and democracy, who was that really for at that particular time, if y'all were to unpack that for us?

So let's explore who was freedom and democracy for in that era?

I'll start with you, Amy.

- So, certainly, it was for white, propertied men during this period, when we look at Tennessee, which is just a set of settlements up in East Tennessee, people like John Sevier right?

He imagined the American Revolution would give people like him an opportunity to gain land, to gain wealth, part of which was expressed by having enslaved people, and to have opportunities that he would not have otherwise had, but in his journals, you know, he does not imagine that those ideas, those liberties flow to anyone else.

It is a revolution for white, propertied men.

- Dr.

Lea, can you expound on that a little bit about maybe what the experiences were of those who were enslaved, and Indigenous folks as well during that time, even after the American Revolution?

- Well, want you to bear in mind, and this is important to know that African Americans weren't passive observers, right?

As soon as Washington needed men, you had African Americans who decide to serve.

And then conversely, when Lord Dunmore, or the royal governor of Virginia, issues a proclamation, and say, "Hey, if you fight for the British, then you'll get your freedom."

So they're not passive observers.

They're hearing all of this, and this sounds really good to them.

So when we look at some of the figures from this period, we find that African Americans were actively involved, and they write about it.

Phillis Wheatley, born in Senegal, she's brought here, she masters the English language, she becomes a poet, and a lot of her poems highlight many of the central themes of the American Revolution.

Then on the back end, you have people like Benjamin Banneker, who challenges Thomas Jefferson on how a lot of the stuff that he wrote prior and during the American Revolution doesn't really line up with what he sees.

- Right.

- Okay, so they were very much a part of this.

Native Americans are interesting, because they are here, and this new country is going to severely test their presence on their traditional lands.

So some of them are being pushed out, but then on the other hand, you have some who try to make concessions to the Americans, and in essence, become Americans.

- [Jerome] Yeah.

- For some, it'll work, but for the vast majority, it did not.

And one interesting person that I can think of right now in the aftermath of the American Revolution was a guy named Jack Civil.

You probably haven't heard of Jack Civil, but Jack Civil was here helping to settle Fort Nashborough, and he doesn't get land like he expects, and he ends up getting attacked near Donaldson, and he goes down toward Chattanooga with the Cherokee, and he actually joins the Cherokee, and he forms what is known as Nickajack's Place.

- Wow.

- But even thinking about that story, you know, we got all these tall tales about Tennessee, but Jack Civil's story is a story about a man who's struggling to be an American, a man who is struggling to exist in this new America.

- Let's keep it there, Tennessee in the South.

Amy, if you can kind of break down maybe what liberty and equality look like in the South, in a state like Tennessee post-American Revolution?

- So to pick up on a story, one of my favorite early Tennesseeans of this period is Nanye'hi, who is a Cherokee woman.

Folks called her Nancy Ward, 'cause that was a little easier to manage, but she was very much focused on not how to be an American, but how are we human?

And how can the Cherokee people interact with, on a very human basis, these new settlers?

There had been traders in the Tennessee area for a couple hundred years, but how can we interact with these?

And as she is appealing to people like John Sevier while the Cherokee and the white settlers are really in open warfare, she says, "We're mothers, and we have children just like you have children."

You know, what could happen if we see each other as fellow human beings rather than as enemies, rather than imagining there's a zero sum game in which some people will gain the land and the resources, and others will lose that?

And she held on to this sense of optimism or hope all the way to removal, right?

- Yeah.

- That wasn't a happy ending to that story, but I think the idea is the same today.

What happens if we connect with one another primarily as humans rather than, you know, "Oh, you're in a group that I don't like," you know, "I can't talk to you."

If we can connect on that human basis, I think she was genius for thinking about that.

Doesn't work during this time period in which more people are thinking about a zero sum game.

Who's gonna control the land?

Who's gonna control the resources in Tennessee?

- And I think, like, even today, like, I think what you're talking about is just the whole concept of community, right?

- Yeah, exactly.

- And I think that still a lot of those signs in our own community today is figuring out how do we have shared resources, right?

How do we be able to make sure everyone has affordable housing, or access to healthcare, or not living in a food apartheid, right?

You know, figuring out how we all can remain human with these kind of necessities that we need to thrive, and be healthy, and grow healthier communities, right?

We have another roll-in I would like to play from another student at Johnson Learning Center.

She goes into, you know, freedom and what does it mean to her?

So let's play that clip.

- Hi, my name is Janie Takisaw, I attend Johnson Learning Center, and what freedom means to me is to not only have the right, but the willingness to do as you please without somebody else's input on what you do, such as dressing how you want, being able to express yourself freely without judgment, and being able to speak your voice.

- So I'm gonna cue it up so that the audience know, now, if you would like to walk up to the mic and ask one of our guests a question, this is your time to do so.

Remember, no soliloquies, you know, we just want questions, but we're gonna continue the conversation, but please feel free to join us in the conversation if you want to by walking up to the mic.

Dr.

Lea, what are some of the, I guess, aspirations or even challenges, maybe, that we probably are still facing today that were also occurring during that American Revolution time, especially when it comes around maybe even identity and national identity?

- One thing that they grappled with, that I see is still grappling with today is, you know, discerning the difference between freedom and license.

- Okay.

- Right?

- [Jerome] Break that down for us, yeah.

- Okay.

Freedom is being able to do what you want to do, not being restricted by the government, and overly restricted by the government, right?

Having license, though, that's doing whatever you want to do, and you don't care about the repercussions, right?

So if I build a plant down in New Orleans, and I dump the pollution in the marsh, - Right.

- Because there's no regulation that says that I can't do it, or I do it anyway, knowing that it's- - It's harmful.

- Yeah, yeah.

That's license.

I feel like we still grapple with that today, particularly when it comes to the, like, the allocation of resources, or discerning which group of people are worthy and which group are not so worthy.

- We still have an identity crisis.

- Yeah, without doubt.

- Yeah.

- But I guess in terms of just looking at how they viewed democracy back then, and comparing it to today, one thing that remains constant is that democracy is a verb, right?

It's an action thing.

You vote, and you participate in the democratic process.

So that would call for you maybe to go to a city council meeting, or to serve on some of the other aspects of the city.

It might require you to become a part of a neighborhood association or a benevolent society, where you decide how you can best serve the people in the community.

- We do have a question.

If you can state your question, please?

- Hi, my name is William Anthony.

I have a question for this woman over here.

- [Jerome] Dr.

Amy, okay.

- Dr.

Amy.

Let's see, if anything you take away from this film, how's it better than "The Civil War"?

Yes, "Civil War," 'cause I heard a comment that you watched Ken Burns' "Civil War," and how's it better than that?

- Yeah, so when I was a college student, myself, I saw Ken Burns' first documentary about the Civil War, and it really changed the entire genre of the historical documentary.

And this one is very much in that genre of taking, really, a deep dive, spending a lot of time on an issue, especially pulling a lot of what we historians like to call primary sources.

So letters from Abigail Adams, speeches and letters from George Washington and such, weaving them together to help us understand those really complex issues, and so that's what I love about Ken Burns' documentaries.

Thank you for your question.

- Thank you.

- [Jerome] We'll take the next question.

- Good evening, how are you all today?

- Great, man.

- My name is Constance, and watching the documentary, you know, it was talking about the Revolution, so from the 1700s till the present, you know, they say history repeats itself.

So how do you feel we are going through it again, from watching that it seems like we are still, you know, we haven't really learned anything?

So I would like for you to expound on that, please.

Thank you so much.

- That's a great question, and we talked about that, like, especially here in the South, how could we combat some of the division - Yes.

- That we had witnessed in the past that, you know, are still kind of prevalent today?

I think that's a good question for both of y'all to answer, maybe.

Dr.

Lea?

- Yeah, it's for both.

Thank you.

- The revolution that this documentary is covering is an unfinished revolution, right?

'Cause we needed a civil war to finally get people to move beyond just thinking that we were Virginians, or Tennesseans, or Floridians, or whatever the case may be, but even with that progress, you know, you have the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendment that are passed, that are significant, some of the most significant amendments that we have.

But even with that, you have an effort that's afoot almost as soon as they are passed to overturn them, or to undermine them, so we spend most of Jim Crow pushing and going through another revolutionary period, right?

You make it to the civil rights movement, and some folks will say that that was revolutionary, but we still have a pushback.

So I guess, to address, oh, where she go?

Okay, to address, try to address your question, I think that this... Our history has been one of continuous revolution, one that we, you know, we make some gains, and then we stumble, and we pick ourselves up, and we try again.

And I think the fundamental question for all of us as Americans today is what role are we gonna play in this revolution?

And then what's the ultimate goal?

'Cause if you have a revolution, the ultimate goal is to create something different, to create something new, to create something better, and I think we need to reach a consensus on what that next thing gonna look like.

- Amy, you wanna take a crack at that?

- Yeah, to a certain extent, the notion of creating a more perfect union.

Of course, we'll never get there, but if we hold that ideal, and if we are all working in that direction, and speaking together as a community, learning about one another, we have a lot better chance of getting there.

I love the correspondence back and forth between John Adams and Abigail Adams that shared their rights.

So John Adams is very focused on bringing about the revolution, that he has an important role to play, and his wife is saying, "Don't forget the ladies," - Right.

- "And why should we obey laws that we have no role in following?"

And you might see a revolution, and indeed, 1848, at Seneca Falls, women used the exact same words, that women are endowed with those same rights, but it's a constant struggle.

It's a constant work to move towards the ideals that they put on paper, but couldn't imagine what we would be living through today.

- You have a question?

- Hi, I'm Ming Wang.

Most of Americans today worry about if our democracy will survive.

The question is if it's going to survive, what is the special reason our democracy will survive?

I think this documentary, "American Revolution," is very timely, important.

What it taught me today, we know American Revolution is unique, but to me, it's not necessarily unique, because it's a fighting against the, you know, the situation, taxation without representation, because many other countries in the history of mankind has fought that.

It's not unique, because there's infighting among the colonists, because many other country have history in that.

What's unique is the ideal that every human being is equal, albeit initially limited to this small group of white farm owners, eventually extended to African Americans, colored folks, and women in the 20th century.

The framework was way ahead of its time.

When the framework is so far ahead of time, an idea, the equality of human beings, even ahead of time today.

250 years later, two thirds of the world still don't have democracy.

We wonder, is the idea so far ahead that it could not survive in America?

And why would the idea so far of its time could be born 250 years ago, and would it survive?

What special quality of that revolutional idea of democracy will help America, our democracy, survive today?

- Thank you.

We might have to get you up here, man, the way you was going.

(Amy laughing) I thought it was over.

I thought you... (laughs) (everyone chuckling) Amy, if you wanna take that?

- I think, again, what I love about the Declaration of Independence and even the Constitution, although it's a little less idealistic and focused, is it boils down not just that people are equal, but that that somehow transcends time and place, right?

That people are endowed by their creator certain inalienable rights, although history didn't teach them that, right?

Those rights had been alienated time and time again.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, what those meant at the time, what they mean today, those ideas still animate us today.

One of the challenges, and the first student from the Johnson Learning Center really talked about is the difference between democracy and a republic.

So of course, we have a democratic republic, that the people vote for our representatives.

I wonder if, at this point, although people talk about America's democracy being in trouble, maybe it's the republic part?

You know, maybe a combination of gerrymandering, campaign financing, lack of faith in public institutions, in Congress.

Maybe what needs to change is less the people voting for representatives, and maybe it's the way in which people are representing the folks that they're supposed to be representing.

I often take students from MTSU to visit our state legislators, and some of those legislators can, at times, be rude, like they're being bothered to have people that they're supposed to represent, and that they're not listening, they're not engaged with that process in the way that, especially the people in Pennsylvania, under their state constitution, they imagine people would be reelected every year so that they would have to be very responsive to the people that they were representing.

As we established the state of Tennessee, one of the reasons we have so many relatively small counties compared to those original colonies is the idea was that a representative should be able to ride his horse from one side of the county to the other so that he could visit all of the people that he was supposed to represent.

So sometimes, and I hear the same language, that our democracy is failing, I wonder if it's more of the republic, that the ways in which we, the people, are being represented is not representing us any longer?

And perhaps more reforms and concrete reforms are needed in that area?

Just a thought.

- And so with that, I wanted to play one more roll-in, 'cause we have the principal of Johnson Learning Center.

It kind of speaks on what does it mean to be an American?

- Greetings, my name is Myron Franklin, executive principal of Johnson Learning Center, and what does it mean to be an American, to me?

Well, to be an American, to me, is to exercise one's freedom, freedom to choose, freedom not to choose.

It's to exercise The right to fight for what you think you do need in this country.

To be an American, to me, is simple, choice, choice of movement, choice of thought, choice of action.

- And so, I think Mr.

Franklin wrapped it up just well.

Can we give our guests a round of applause?

(audience cheering and applauding) (Jerome chuckling) And I wanna thank everybody at home that's just watched another episode of "A Slice of the Community," and we'll catch y'all next time.

Thank you.

(rhythmic music)