(uplifting music) - Hey all, it's Sani, the host of Racism Unveiled.

And we are talking about trauma today.

Now, whether you acknowledge this or not, everybody has experienced trauma in one way or another be it daily, or generational.

And sometimes with that trauma, we can ignore it push it to the side, and we push past our limits, and that just makes the problems even worse.

When you add the stigma of mental health and that leaves some people feeling like they have to deal with all this trauma, and the processing of the trauma by themselves, but that's not the case.

That's where therapy comes into play.

And so today you guys are gonna be able to tune into a conversation that I'm having with Dr. Sheila Sweeney, about some of the trauma that I am currently trying to process up.

Stay tuned.

(uplifting music) - Hi, Dr. Sweeney.

- Hi, I'm good, how are you?

- I'm doing okay, glad to see you.

(laughs) - Glad to see you as well, even if it's this way.

- It's good to be seen too, as someone told me.

(laughs) - Yeah, absolutely.

- So I don't know, I don't know where to start today.

(laughs) - Just, tell me a little bit about who you are and your story.

So, I know sometimes it's kind of weird, but just start where you're at and we'll move in the directions we need to go with.

- Okay, well, I work in media, in Twin Cities, a long hustle to get here.

I'm proud of that.

I work in entertainment in general.

I do voiceover, I do public speaking.

I write music, I dance.

So entertainment in general.

Voiceovers is what pays the bills.

- Okay.

(laughs) - Yeah, so my story is, I was born in Chicago, to a Nigerian father and my mother is African-American, and we had a pretty small, like I had a pretty small, early childhood.

- [Shelia] Okay.

- Like I had allowance...

I don't know why when I think like, I had a cool childhood I immediately go to, like, I had consistent allowance.

Like to me, that's like (laughs) the epitome of a consistent and safe, and nourishing childhood.

But I had two parents, to me, my older brother and my younger sibling.

And when I turned 11, my father got deported-- - [Shelia] Okay.

- Area and we didn't know what was happening then, but I know that we were living in Chicago, and then all of a sudden mommy was like, we moved into Minnesota.

And my first thought, honest to goodness was like, "Are there black people up there?"

- [Shelia] Yeah.

- And my second thought at the time was, "Do they got Tiny Toon Adventures?"

Cause that was the cartoon, that was the... (laughs) What was topping back then.

But I thought it was like all farmland.

And I couldn't understand why we would go from Chicago to Minnesota.

I didn't understand why daddy was leaving, but now that I'm an adult, I found out that the people... My father got deported.

I guess the people who were advising my mom were like, "You guys could relocate to Canada."

And maybe move to Minnesota first to get used to the cold before we move up to Canada.

And we just never moved up to Canada.

So there's just like a lot of unanswered questions that we're still figuring out to this day.

But that wasn't even like the messed up part of my story, the mess up I was when we first moved here, and I remember before we moved up here, my mom traveled up here.

We moved up here in the fall.

And my mom traveled up here three, or four times to secure employment and to get housing for us.

And then when we got up here, we moved to a shelter.

And again, I'm a young kid, what was the purpose of mama coming up here all those times?

If we don't have... She don't got no job, she don't got no housing.

Like what was the purpose?

And she told us that because, she sounds "white" over the phone-- - [Shelia] Okay.

- She looked different-- - [Sheila] Hmm.

- And so when she pulled up, I guess they was like, "Housing isn't available."

So we had to stay in...

I think it was a month, we were in shelters, in downtown St. Paul.

- Okay.

- And then after that, mama got on her feet, it was a struggle.

But she used to tell me about, these little things that people would do to her at work.

And I really did, I thought mama was crazy.

I was like, "Ain't nobody messing with you like that."

They call them microaggressions.

- Yeah.

- But she was telling me that people would do like little petty things to her.

And I saw her changing.

But you're a kid I'm like 11, I don't know what's going on with momma, but I remember she would mention things.

I would overhear her talking to my aunt on the phone about it.

And it's just all these little pieces from when I was little that is like evidence of potential racism.

And now that I'm adult in the conversation is a lot more mainstream.

It's like, "Dang, I didn't know that mama was going through all that."

And I'm shocked she didn't break down earlier if we're being completely honest.

But she had a breakdown when I was in eighth grade- - [Sheila] Okay.

- And so we moved back and forth from Chicago to here, for at least I think a year or two just back and forth, before we moved back up here.

And then, we were taken away from my mom and put into foster care.

- [Sheila] Oh, okay.

- I'm sorry, that's a lot, I just laid it on you.

(laughs) - No, I'm used to that, I like the full blown stories.

Let's jump into it.

I'm just curious how old you were.

So you're you're talking about like the age of 11.

So from 11, until what age was all of this kind of transition back and forth?

- So 11 was when daddy got deported, and then I was still 11, so that same year we moved up here.

And then what is that?

13, 14 by when mama had her breakdown, when we was going back and forth.

So between 11 and 15 it was just crazy.

It was really hard because my mom didn't seem as happy as she used to be.

My mom's a go getter.

If you ever be like, "Dang so I need to be all in the stuff."

It's my mama's.

(laughs) - [Sheila] Yeah.

- That's what my mama do.

And like I saw her enjoy, I saw her being happy, and I just didn't see that anymore, when we moved up here, but I didn't know why.

- Yeah.

- [Sani] You know?

- Yep, yep.

It sounds like through all of that, that you just described earlier, you were trying to make meaning, of all of that at your age, which is really hard.

Like you said, you had stability- - [Sani] Yeah.

- You had this allowance that you described earlier.

You'd like, so you had the stability, you had the two parent home, and all of a sudden, at 11, your whole world was disrupted- - [Sani] Yeah.

- Starting with the deportation of your father-- - [Sani] Yeah.

- And then into, like you said disruptors that like folks who were telling your mom, "Oh you guys should move to Canada."

- [Sani] Yeah.

- "But maybe to Minnesota."

And then you got here, and you literally started seeing a difference, in your mom difference in your whole household.

- [Sani] Right.

- And the whole family makeup, right?

- Yeah.

I remember when mommy, we were there when she had her breakdown.

- [Sheila] Mm-hmm.

- So I was in eighth grade, this was like, we're about to graduate, we're a few months out from graduation.

And I came home, and it was pretty dark.

I was hanging out with my friends.

So I came home, it was like maybe six or seven.

And it was really dark in the house, and my mom had the music really loud and I was like, "What's up with momma?"

And my aunt lived with us at the time.

And she said that, she was like, "I don't know, "earlier today, your mom got up and started playing music.

"And then she went around and she cut all the cords, "to everything."

- [Sheila] Okay.

- And then I remember staying home the next day.

And then she still was acting like weird, and then I ran away to my friend's house.

And then she called the police, and the police was talking to me outside, and they was like, "Why'd you run away?"

And I was like, "There's something wrong with my mom."

This was the most frustrating thing, was telling adults there's something wrong with my mom and not being able to tell them what was wrong with my mom.

'Cause I know my mama, (laughs) but I know everybody else don't know my mama.

- [Sheila] Yes.

- But telling them, How do you tell somebody, "I think my mom's having a mental break."

First of all, you gotta be able to process what's happening.

And then you gotta be able to communicate that.

And I just remember always saying, "There's something wrong with my mom."

- And I remember the police was like, "Is she beating you?

Is something going on in the house?"

And I was like, "Nope, nope, nope, but there's something wrong with my mom."

(giggles) And then he was like, "We didn't get..." He didn't understand what I was talking about.

And I didn't really get anywhere.

And he was like, "You don't wanna run away because that could put it bad."

I remember him telling me that could put something a bad note on your background, or something like that.

And that's pretty much what he left me with.

(laughs) But yeah, I just remember that being the most frustrating, I remember being in the shelter, and I remember, "Oh my goodness."

I remember we moved back up here, and we moved into a shelter downtown St. Paul.

And I remember they were like, "You guys are gonna get kicked out."

And this was the second shelter we had been to, because I think we got put out the first one, because of my mom's behavior.

- [Sheila] Okay.

- And I remember they kicked, I remember they threatened.

They were like, "You're gonna get kicked out."

And I remember being...

I was a sophomore in high school, and I remember finding some admin, and like, "I got to talk to somebody, you guys can't put us out."

And taking on that responsibility.

Like, "You guys can't put us out.

There's something wrong with my mom.

If you put us out, I'm scared, what's going to happen."

And I remember begging adults, please don't put us out, please don't put us out.

And eventually, they put us out anyway and then placed us in foster care.

And I do remember that being the most frustrating is feeling like I was screaming at adults, and nobody could hear me.

- Yes.

- I feel like that was the most frustrating thing.

And that was the same place my mom told me this years later the same place that kicked us out, was the same place that said my mom was using drugs.

They said she was on crack, they gave her a test, a urine analysis, or whatever they call it.

And they said that she was on crack.

And the only way I found this out, was after they had taken us and put us...

When I say us, I mean my sister and I-- - [Sheila] Okay.

- Put us in a foster care and there was this student, that came to my high school that we linked up through my teacher, and a college student that was at the U of them.

And they were doing a report, I guess, on kids in foster care.

I wasn't quite sure, why she was doing a report on me, but I was cool with it.

I really in my mind thought, well maybe if somebody knows, somebody at the U will help me.

- [Sheila] Yes.

I remember that was always my thought process.

I wanna help my mama, and that was one of the reasons I agreed to it.

But then she went over it at the end, and then she was like, "Okay, I just wanna make sure everything's correct.

You're in high school, you're a cheerleader.

You're doing this, you're doing that."

And the reason why you were taken from your mother is because she is on crack.

And I was like, "Hold up."

(giggles) "That's not right."

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- I said, "My mom has a mental illness."

And then she was like, "Oh," and then I just never heard from her again.

- [Sheila] Hmm.

- Yeah.

- [Sheila] Yeah, yeah.

As you're talking about this you're painting such a vivid picture.

So I'm a visual learner, right?

So as you're talking, I'm not only listening with my ears, I'm listening with my visual, to just imagine, like you said, I'm like this little girl.

I think you jumping up and down, like, "Hear me, hear me," like, "Someone, please listen to my story."

I was just trying to get the attention.

Like you said of adult hoping, wishing your your desire, is to have someone hear you-- - [Sani] Hmm.

- And really show you and your mom that they heard you-- - [Sani] Hmm.

- [Sheila] And do something about it.

Do something with you and uphold it.

Almost like when you described that police officer, who was asking you, "Well, is your mom beating you?"

Or like, "Is there something going on?"

So, it's almost like if you had given these traditional answers, like, "I'm being beaten, I'm being molested."

Those kinds of things then you would have been heard, but how frustrating it must've felt to not be heard, when you're saying there is something wrong with my mom.

- [Sani] Right.

- Hear me, and help her-- - [Sani] Right.

- Therefore help us.

- [Sani] Right, Right.

And I think even to this day, one of the things that I'm working on, is finding healthy means of communicating.

Because I feel like when I'm not being heard I start yelling.

(laughs) And I know that is linked to what happened to me when I was young.

And I do think that this is a toxic way of looking at things.

But I noticed that when I raised my voice stuff is done.

(laughs) - (indistinct) - I mean, it's not the healthiest means.

And I'm trying to get past that.

Plus it's not healthy for me, because I do think it puts me in a position to kind of fall right back on the path that my mom was going up.

So, I try to be very cognizant of the choices that I make because, one of my life goals is, I'm the buck stops here.

I'm not letting that happen to me like what happened to my mom.

And so it's this balance of...

I got these coping mechanisms that I know that I picked up in childhood, but as an adult, I know that those things aren't healthy, they're not healthy means.

So, it's this weird balance.

Now in my adulthood of me being like, "That's what I had to use back then.

I don't really need to use those tools right now.

There's healthier means of getting my needs met."

And so, it's insane to me, because now I feel like I'm more on solid ground.

And this is honestly like my first time in my life I've been able to be like, okay.

(laughs) - [Sheila] Yep.

- let's look and see, let's look at reflect and see how all of these things that happened to me when I was young, how they might be serving as barriers for me, to get to where I'm trying to go.

And it's a lot.

(laughs) - [Sheila] Yeah.

- It's a lot.

(laughs) - [Sheila] Yeah, yeah.

And I think what you just named is half the battle.

When you know what's going on, when you can name it, it's something that isn't hidden.

It's not keeping you imprisoned anymore.

I wanna name something that, and again, you may not see it yet as positive, but I wanna pull out a thread that I've noticed when you were talking, three major things about your voice, right?

And so, the one you named that, like you said it serves as a barrier.

That's a piece that you're working on.

You don't really like it, you don't want to have to yell, or raise your voice to get people's attention.

You want to just be yourself and be heard.

- [Sani] Right.

- But one of the things that you named at the top of our conversation today is, what did you tell me your main work is?

What pays the bill again?

- Voiceover.

(laughs) - look at how that manifested into something that is actually bringing you monetary gain.

Maybe again, I'm a connector.

I put puzzles together, and it's going to work, right.

But also, what else did you name that told you you was stable as a child?

Your allowance.

- My allowance, wow.

What pays the bills and what did...

So again, your voice-- - [Sani] Wow!

- And the monetary piece that goes with that.

So those are two powerful things.

I think that on the other side, right?

When things mean us harm, there's always, we can make some lemonade out of that too.

- [Sani] Hmm.

- We got bearable limits.

We can make lemonade-- - [Sani] Right.

- So there's some connectors here.

The other two pieces, I wanna say powerful about your voice, is you, maybe, you know this, maybe you haven't become aware of it but, what you named is you have become the voice.

You become the historian, for your mother.

So sometimes in this work, in psychotherapy, we have to jinks so let me back up.

When we're little babies, when our parents are interacting with us, kind of going back and forth, right.

We're learning from them, right?

- [Sani] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

- They are lending their mind to us as we learn the things we're supposed to learn, right?

So there'll be like, "Hi."

And you might go, "Hi," or you might smile.

You're mirroring what they're doing.

- [Sani] Yeah.

- So, to a certain extent then you take on that role and responsibility.

So you develop your own mind through toddlerhood to like, "I do it, I do it."

- [Sani] Hmm.

- You come back and ask your mom to help you zip a coat.

And then when she gets it a little ways up you'd be like, "I do it," right.

You wouldn't want to take over, that becomes your independence.

So now I'm a fast forward.

So, at the point where you truly recognize there was something going on with your mom, and like you said, "I know my mama, I know her.

I know when things are happening."

- [Sani] Yeah.

- Which Talks to your stability and connection and relationship with your mom.

- [Sani] Yeah.

- So when something is off, when mom can't name it, you are the other mind that says, "This is what I'm seeing.

This is what I'm experiencing, something ain't right."

- [Sani] Right, Right, Right.

- And you get what I'm saying?

- [Sani] I Do-- - So you (Indistinct) voice for her too, even though I know you didn't feel heard.

And all of that is right on point and I'm gonna let you get back to that too.

But I also wanted to point out how, in those moments, you also became the sounding board for your mom to know her own journey, where there might be certain pieces that she wasn't able to track or follow, because of all of this stuff happening all at once.

So you became, a regulating partner for your mom.

- [Sani] Right, Yeah.

I asked her permission to talk about her story.

'Cause it's hers, and this is a very sensitive subject.

So I'm sorry if I bust up crying.

(laughs) - [Sheila] Its fine, it's okay.

- It's my mama.

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- But, we talk about it frequently.

I remember doing a new story with a Minnesota Publication and I had never, ever, ever, ever, ever before doing that story, I had never told anybody my story.

So our story, and I never heard it.

- [Sheila] Yes.

- So when I read it and heard it back, I was a wreck for two weeks.

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- And then I remember telling people my story.

And it's like, (laughs) I tell one part of the story and people go, "Well, why did that happen?"

And then I got to tell another part, and then they go, "Why did that happen?"

(laughs) And then another part, and it's just all these movement pieces.

And when you hear the whole story, God is just...

I'm a little bit better, talking about it.

I couldn't talk about it at all before.

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- One of the reasons why I'm able to talk about it is because, like you said, I did make the connection that I work with a mic, I work in radio.

So I did make the connection that all these things happen to me.

And I do feel like I have a responsibility to speak to what happened, but it is uncomfortable.

- [Sheila] Yes.

- It is uncomfortable.

And yeah, man, it's like I said, it's getting better.

Just hearing you make those connections, I almost started crying.

- [Sheila] Hmm.

- Because I do feel like I'm a voice for my mom.

And I do feel like I have a responsibility to make...

I'm very, very, very, very serious about my mental health.

I'm very serious about my boundaries, because I see how my mom, what can I say?

She contracted herself out to everybody.

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- And, one of the biggest things, one of the biggest takeaways, and I really wish this wasn't the case.

One of the biggest takeaways that I got from my the whole ordeal with my mom is, geez if you're a black woman and you go through it, man, like... (laughs) - [Sheila] Yeah.

- 'Cause I mean, there were people who we hung out with every Christmas, every Halloween, every 4th of July- - [Sheila] Hmm.

- That did not pull up for my mom when my mom was sick.

And I do think that has something to do with me being the mouthpiece for my mom.

One of the reasons I studied psychology in college.

'Cause I wasn't getting any answers about what was wrong with my mom.

And so I was like, "I'm gonna go to school to go get a psych degree and find out, (laughs) what's wrong with my mom."

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- I felt like nobody was helping me, so I had to take it on myself.

But then that also feeds into the black woman gets everything done.

And then boom, now I'm reliving everything that kind of led up to mama getting sick in the first place.

So, it's this weird cycle, man.

It really is, it really, really is.

But one of the most painful takeaways was, and I'm not no victim.

I need that to be known right at the gate.

I have had a lot of stuff thrown at me, and I'm not a person who leads into, "Oh, well I have this disadvantage."

You wouldn't even know about it, this advantage, I'm coming into the place- - [Sheila] Right.

- Ready resource stuff.

I don't leave with my disadvantages, but I definitely...

It's not lost on me, that my mother had literally no resources to help her.

I even asked her, I said, "Okay so they said you was on crack."

I was like, "Did they give you any resources to go to any addiction, counseling, anything?"

She was like, "Nope."

- [Sheila] Hmm.

- And I'm like, "Well, are you gonna tell somebody they're on crack and then..." I mean, there was literally no resources.

There was no resources for me as a teen to be like, "Hey, if you're like..." It's understood that you go to a clinic, and they're gonna talk to the young people.

They're gonna have pamphlets up and down, about STDs and stuff like that.

But where are the pamphlets for young teens, who are dealing with parents who are having mental health episodes?

- [Sheila] Absolutely.

- Where's the resources for kids who are having parents who are having...

I can remember how I felt in eighth grade, when we had moved to Chicago the first time and we just up and moved.

We moved back, after moving up here.

And I remember going like the last... 'Cause I told you we moved before I graduated eighth grade up here.

And so, I spent the last few months in Chicago, and I remember we graduated and young people my age wanted to get to know me.

They wanted to hang out, but I was embarrassed about my mom because I didn't know, she would come up to our end of the year, high school senior, not high school, but eighth grade senior party.

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- And she showed up, and mommy had a tick back then.

- [Sheila] Okay.

- She was a shell of who she was.

And I just remember, I remember seeing her and the dude was like, "Hey, come on, we're doing this."

And I was like, "Nah, I gotta go."

And just that weird...

It's already awkward being a teen.

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- This is a whole like another two times to add on top of that when you have a parent that's having mental episodes, mental health concerns.

And so, I remember feeling confused, scared, lonely, and just really, really...

If I could do anything with the success that I have, I just want resources for young people so they can navigate.

I felt like there was no resources, (phone beeps) so.

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- And I think that's what made me feel like I didn't have a voice.

I feel like that's what made me feel like it judges, there was that.

That's why I felt like I'm just going to do it myself.

- Hmm.

- I'm gonna go to school, and I'm gonna find out what's wrong with my mom, because there...

I mean I'm at a shelter and they wouldn't help him.

What do you do with that?

(laughs) it aint the place to child help people.

- Right, right, right, like resources, you're being like, "Where's the resources?"

- [Sani] Yeah.

- You're like (indistinct) someone else see this, those kinds of things-- - I'm like, "(indistinct) go through all this.

- Right, you're absolutely right.

And what you're talking about is you're finding the gap.

There's no resources for young people.

And I'm thinking about that as you're talking, I'm like, "Yeah we do often talk about resources for a mother who's going through that with her child.

We're all talking about resources for just other family members," but you're right, we're really not talking about resources for children who are experiencing parents, who are exhibiting signs of mental illness.

- [Sani] Right.

- And to really try to understand, "What is going on with my mom?"

- [Sani] What's Going On?

It was mommy.

So mommy had her breakdown at 96.

It was winter '97, before my older cousin, I love him to death.

He was the one person who came to me, and was like, 'Your mommy's brain has a cold."

- [Sheila] Hmm.

- He was the only person that really broke it down for me, and tried to help me understand.

And I love him for that because when he said that, I was like, "Okay if your brain is supposed to be in good working order..." When you have a cold, your nose is running, you gross in the face, dah, dah, dah.

But, for him to say it to me like a kid-- - [Sheila] Yeah.

- I really appreciate that.

And that was literally the only communication that I got about what was going on with mama.

- [Sheila] Yeah.

She had sick, we don't even talk about that.

- [Sheila] Okay.

- She would just randomly do this, violently- - [Sheila] Okay.

- Violently.

And that's never been, I asked her, I'm like, "What was that?"

And she doesn't remember- - [Sheila] Hmm.

- You know what I mean?

'Cause I don't know what that was like for her.

But there was just no nothing for me to try to make.

I really do feel the life that I've created was just out of thin air.

I don't feel like I had no solid ground-- - [Sheila] Yeah.

- No type of consistency, no type of...

I kinda felt like... Like you say, if I didn't have the typical issues, I was getting abused, or the typical things that you hear about teenagers, nobody was really trying to hear it.

And I remember even at school, even when I was having issues transitioning into foster care there were really no resources that was kind of like, "Hey, I don't think this is a good fit," that I'm in this home.

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- And people were kind of like, "Well, make the best of it."

(laughs) Like, "Do what you're told, and roll the dice."

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- And so, it's interesting though because some of that stuff I feel like affects me to this day.

I don't like not being heard.

(laughs) - [Sheila] Yeah.

- And I feel like a big portion of that is, has to do with...

But here's the thing in the last years I've been able to be like, "You got to find a different way to communicate," because mentors have told me, if you try to use old tools on new projects, you know what I'm saying?

That's not gonna work, but it's insane to me how much of, a lot of this stuff is kind of still with me, and I'm having to just be like, "Put that down, and let's pick up another tool."

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- And how it affects me and how I show up in society.

So, I mean, I ain't walking around snapping on people.

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- I will say I'll be won't to, But, (laughs) - Yeah.

- Is (indistinct) to that point.

But, I know at least I know where it's coming from, I know where it started.

- Okay.

- - And I do think that that affects me.

And that's why sometimes it frustrates me about "The angry black woman," stereotype, is like, "Did you ask yourself why she angry?"

- Right.

- all right, just throwing all that ahead on her and not really...

I didn't have any resources.

My mom was sick, my dad got deported, and nobody was listening to me.

I was screaming, nobody was listening to me.

I felt like nobody was really listening to me.

Even in the foster care system.

I ran into a handful of decent people, everybody else was just trying to get their hustle on, and trying to be exploitive, you know what I mean?

You're lucky if you find some decent people and I got I was lucky enough to find a decent foster home.

So... - [Sheila] Yeah.

- But I mean, even in that sense there's not really a lot of resources there.

I remember the second home I was in, my second foster mom was a Gee, she'll go to war for you.

- [Sani] Yeah.

- But even she would complain about the lack of resources, and she used to work in a system as a probation officer.

So that tells you someone's in the system, and they're playing, "Dang where's the resources for this?"

That says something to you.

- Absolutely.

- Yeah.

- Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I'm just looking at, as you just spoke all of that it's like I can see your body go.

(sighs) - Yeah.

(laughs) - Yep.

- Yeah, it's a very sensitive subject for me.

'Cause like I said, I'm still working through stuff from when I was little, I'm still working through these.

All that stuff affected so much, my relationships, the friends I hooked up with, the jobs I chose.

It affects you so much.

And like I said, this is my first time, in my whole entire life where I feel like I got both feet on the ground and this is my first time being able to be like, "Why do you do that, Sani?

Why did you let those people?"

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- "Why did you choose to hang out with those people?"

- [Sheila] Hmm.

- "Why didn't you work over there when you saw that they weren't like..." So much stuff is connected to that.

And so much of that exposure to the system that early affects me to this day.

And I do feel like it affects my attitudes.

I'm to keep it a buck with you, I don't trust the vaccine.

I know they're saying... (laughs) - [Sheila] Hmm.

- When you consider my situation, there was an actual professional who lied and said that, they gave my mom a urine test, and said she was on crack, that makes you weary.

(laughs) - [Sheila] Yeah.

- About (indistinct) system.

So, I mean, when you throw that in there, the dishonesty that I witnessed with my mom, and just the lack of concern for her just as a basic human being and her children, and how they grow up in society.

And then, I think about some of the stereotypes that I hear about black women.

And it's frustrating, it's frustrating.

And I do feel like there's not enough efforts, to go, "Why is she a angry black woman, why?"

I feel like anger is an emotion.

And as humans, it makes sense to look behind the emotion.

- [Sheila] Yeah.

- And I feel like it's just easy to just put black women like, "Oh, she's just angry."

Well, why is she angry, what happened with her?

I just feel like that space isn't given.

I feel like I'm supposed to come to work and I'm supposed to smile and I'm always supposed to be happy and I can't have an attitude and I can't disagree.

And it's not like people are saying, "You can't do this."

It's there's like a societal push that if I push back a little bit or I say, "Hey, you know, I don't know about that."

I'm seen as difficult or I'm seen as bossy or I'm seen as pushy when it's like just little me (laughs) trying to be hard.

- Wow, yes.

- It's just this big gumball of like confusion and looking at myself as a little girl trying to navigate myself through that is like, (indistinct) I'm shocked.

I'm here (indistinct).

(laughs) I'm like, "Whoa, I made it."

But you know how many don't make it.

- Yeah, yes.

- You know, and they were betting on me not making it.

You know, I had a lot of people who were in the system.

Social workers prognosticating over me saying, "Oh, you're just gonna do this.

"You're just gonna be another baby mama.

"You're not gonna graduate."

Like people, the...

These are people that I was exposed to while I was in foster care saying this over me, "Oh, you're never gonna do this."

And you know, I run into them saying, "People!"

And they're not as talkative now.

(laughs) But still like, I don't know.

I don't know, I feel like I had such a good mom and she put enough in me to when all this stuff happened that I was able to carry it with me till I was able to reconnect with her.

But what about kids who don't have that?

You know, what about young girls and young boys who don't have my mom?

You know what I mean?

So that's what keeps me concerned.

And for, you know, the next generation of young people and you know, the older you get, you start to see the the BS that you see young people falling for and it just concerns me.

It concerns me because I know when I see a young black girl and I see a lot of people judging her or something like that, and I'm like I bet ain't nobody even asked her how her day was and what she had for breakfast.

Or it's just easy to just wrap us up in a box and be like, "Oh, you just got an attitude."

This is the most recent one; you're playing a victim.

That one gets under my skin.

'Cause you know I'm a human being and I've endured all of these challenges and those challenges affect me.

And it's okay for me to talk about how those things affected me.

That doesn't make me a victim, it makes me aware.

- Exactly, exactly.

And awareness, and the more you know, the more powerful it is for you to continue to grow in who you are and your authentic self when showing your authentic voice.

Because it's like a lot of times I hear black women talking about, and I've experienced this myself, but talking about their voices being suppressed or not even being asked about, like you said, "Oh, either you got this or if you like..." You know, if you want to express some emotions or in the moment just kind of like wanna get some things out, you know?

You know, like you said, you might be called a victim or weak or those kinds of things and none of those things are true.

Like you said, we're human beings and we wanna just express our voice and our feelings and emotions and all of those good things.

It's not an if, it's and, it's all the things; who makes, you know, who you are.

- But that message was conveyed to me at a young age.

That message, that a black woman's cry doesn't matter.

At least that's what I got from it.

That's what I got from, you know, you could say, "Oh your dad was the immigrant "trying to live off the system."

No, my dad was a hustler.

My dad was hustling.

My dad was driving a taxi cab and I'm gonna tell you something.

I do a lot of work, I would not choose driving a taxi cab.

(laughs) (indistinct) just me, in Chicago no less, okay?

So like now my parents hustled and there's just all these stereotypes that are associated like me being in foster care I had to fight that stereotype.

Everybody assumed that I wanna go be nothing, that I wouldn't go...

It's just all these different things.

So it's like, all these stereotypes are there but they wouldn't be there if people just listened.

It's easy to just be like, "Oh you're just playing a victim.

"Oh, you're just being difficult.

"Oh, you're just being bossy."

It's like, nah, there was an injustice done over here.

When I tried to communicate that y'all call me boss or you call me difficult, there wasn't an injustice done here.

And when I try to bring that up, "Oh, you're off topic right now."

And a message that I learned at a very young age and I still stick with me to this day.

It sticks with me.

I'm like, "You got the hat, you got, "I gotta have myself 'cause I'm not sure "nobody is gonna have me."

I'm gonna be real with you, I don't know that that's a hundred percent true.

But when I look at how my mother was handled and I think if anybody looking just if you took away her sex and you took away her race and you just looked at her as a human anybody would say, "That's wrong.

That's wrong."

If you take away the political stuff behind, sex and the political stuff behind, race, and you just said, "This human being experienced this.

"That human being was done, "there were injustices that were done."

And I feel like they were never even discussed.

That's, I mean, and it didn't stop there.

My mother had to pay for us to be in foster care.

- Wow.

- Yeah.

I didn't know that, she still has to pay to this day.

She had to pay because I guess, you know, they let her foot the bill.

And my thing was like, as I got older, I learned about how the system works and I learned that, you know people get paid to take care of the children.

And I'm like, "Why don't y'all just get the money "to the parents and keep the families together.

"And then we can have more like consistency and community.

"And we can turn out like humans and, you know, participants "in society that are gonna be more well-rounded "because they came from a more sturdy home?"

And so I'd never understood that, I never understood why you would give.

Like I've heard that people get money for having foster kids.

I heard that people get money to read, make their house, to read, model their house for the kids.

And I'm like, are you kidding me?

You could have... why is there not an effort to keep families together?

And if there is, why didn't I see it?

Like, why was it hidden for me?

(laughs) I just feel like if our society is really, really behind, like if we supposed to be like the United States and we supposed to be the best and the brightest I don't feel like I'm seeing that in the systems that are supposed to be there to help us when we aren't our best.

I'm not seeing that, I'm not saying that all the systems are bad but there are some key problematic areas and systems that are definitely supposed to be there to help everybody.

That's kinda where I'm at with it.

Like that bothers me that my mother is having to take some of her social security to pay for foster care.

We're both grown, that bothers me.

Why was that even a judgment?

Like to meet that's a complete injustice y'all lied and said that someone was on crack.

You took her children, you didn't help her get off crack.

(laughs) And then after all is said and done, you make her foot the bill.

Like, I need answers.

Like I need to know who approved all of that.

I need to know that, you know.

And then for that to be a part of my story and for me to go out into the world and me go I'm not gonna let that happen to me so I'm gonna be more communicative.

I'm gonna create more boundaries, I'm gonna be more healthy.

And people deem all of those efforts as me being a victim, or I'm being difficult.

And it's just like this, "Oh, what the hell "am I supposed to do?"

(laughs) - And if you could just be relieved of those crushers you actually could sit down like I described your body a little bit ago and be like (indistinct).

Because it's almost like you're holding up the platform not to only just want to stand on, you're holding it up to make (indistinct) break again because you have seen so much injustice.

You have seen your mom lose so much, your mom has lost a lot, okay?

And then having to pay for it, it's like you're still trying to figure out and I'm sure your mom is too still trying to figure out what just happened, what is still happening?

It's not over, it's not even (indistinct) you can sit on the platform and share your voice and share your story with all of these things still resolved.

They're still in court?

- Exactly.

I'm still processing it right now.

And I still have these emotions about it.

Like it frustrates me, it does.

And then, like I said, it's this balance of, well, the buck stops here, I'm not gonna let it happen to me.

But the actions that I take so that that doesn't happen, now I have the stereotype of being difficult or being bossy or I'm a victim, or I'm always talking about this.

And it's like, maybe I'm always talking about it because it never got resolved.

Maybe I'm always talking about it because I keep hearing other black women say that they deal with the same stuff.

Maybe I'm still talking about it because it's really an issue.

And we're really getting tired of people making it seem like we're just making up excuses over like this.

It's frustrating, the narrative of how black women are seen as, it can get frustrating.

I'm learning to be like, "Nope, that's their opinion.

"That's their stereotype.

"You know, their personal opinion of me "doesn't mean anything."

But it does, it affects, it affects our ability to get employment, it affects where we put our children for school, it just affects all these areas that we need in order to be a part of society.

And it's like, I tune in to black woman and I hear them and it's like, it's insane that I've never met these women but they're talking about the same things.

And then to collectively like just throw a blanket over so all us in line, we all being victims, huh?

(laughs) - Right, and one of those things that I always will say is you will, you and the rest of the women still talking about it, we'll stop talking about it when your voice is heard, period.

You will feel satisfied when you stop talking about it.

That means you came to a place of satisfaction, right?

You know what, I'm in a good place with that.

It's almost like innately your body, your mind, won't need to talk about it anymore.

But the reason why you keep talking about it is because you haven't properly felt heard yet, or held.

You don't even feel like your story is properly held.

And those who are telling you or asking you, why are you still talking about it, they're more, I don't like to speak for other people but just a general thought is that, are they uncomfortable with continuing to hear it?

And if they're uncomfortable, what's their level?

Why are they feeling uncomfortable, right?

So that's gonna keep coming up until you truly feel heard.

The topic won't come up again except for a memory that you all choose to keep within you or within your family, but the point of view amplifying it and telling it over and over again that means you're not satisfied with how it's been heard yet.

- No, and I'm not satisfied with how it was handled either, quite frankly.

To be honest with you, a big reason why I continue to talk about it is because there were a lot of coping mechanisms that I developed when I was younger that I naturally, 'cause you know if you've been doing it for a long time is second nature.

And naturally like, even I am in a long-term relationship I have a fiance and a lot of the coping mechanisms that I used when I was younger some of that stuff affects my relationship and I have to be like, "Look, do you want the relationship "or do you want this coping mechanism?"

And it's a lot of stuff.

It's a lot of stuff so I just feel like black women are simultaneously, like, we try to heal.

(laughs) We try to process, we try to communicate (indistinct) we try to dance, we try to make sure that our daughters don't do what we're dealing with.

We try to make sure we don't deal what our grandparents dealt with.

I feel like we just juggling all this stuff and then the moment we'd be like, "Beep," (laughs) then it's, "Now you're a victim."

You can (indistinct) quietly, no.

All this stuff is avoidable, it's all I'm saying.

Like it frustrates me that they was just like, "You're on crack," and I'm like, "Okay."

So they nobody offered you services.

Nobody said, "Hey, you have an issue."

Nobody, they didn't hook you up with a therapist.

Like where's the resources.

And y'all tell me I gotta pay taxes.

I wanna know some of that where it's going.

You know what I mean?

(laughs) - Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

And just like, and I don't wanna forget your mom in here too, 'cause you brought your mom into the space with us, right?

And so just thinking about also her voice feeling suppressed and pushed down more and more.

And when you were talking earlier about going back and forth to Chicago, you know, to Minnesota vice versa.

And again, in my mind, again I'm thinking about what was she seeking, right?

And without speaking for her the one thing that comes up in my mind is a lot of times when we are feeling kind of like, you know, not our best selves are off for some reason, whatever it is going through something, we often seek foundation and foundation is to go back home start from there and come back, go back home.

Because again, we learned that as babies like babies will do something then they regret.

They'll go back to a place where they feel competent and then they'll move out a little bit further.

And so I wonder if a part of that, again, that's innately inside of all of us, we all do it.

I wonder what your mom was seeking and it may sound like she was seeking understanding for herself, right?

As you all were seeking, understanding, you know, as your ages, you know, developmentally.

And so again, it's amazing how you all were dealing with thinking about, you know, the same things, but in the way that you could and the way you can navigate it.

And now all trying to make sense of it.

And again, deal, right?

- You bring up a good point.

You say, we seek foundation.

Like I noticed when my daughter was learning how to walk.

You know they walk a little bit and they bust their head and they come back.

Like that's the process.

And a piece of this story, and this is why I'm like, "Y'all not gonna get me."

(laughs) Like racism is not gonna get me baby, I'm not (indistinct).

But like I really feel like that.

And the reason why is because I learned later on that my grandmother died in the waiting room at the hospital.

And that's what triggered my mother's mental illness.

My grandmother passed from aneurysm.

She went to the doctor and was telling him, "My head hurt, my head hurt."

Once again, they didn't listen.

They didn't listen.

And mama said to this day she gets frustrated because she said she saw her mother slide in the chair.

And she said, "That's when everybody started rushing."

And I do feel like that's how they do black women.

I feel like it's...

I'll say this, I don't think it's just black women.

And I think that's a trauma response for me to even have to do that.

But I do think like Lupita, she was one of the first people to complain about Harvey Weinstein and nobody listened to her.

And Kiki, is it Kiki Palmer?

Kiki, she's an actress.

She made a comment about Trey Songs and how she says, she feels like when black women say stuff everybody's so quick to just be like, "Oh they loud," or whatever, dah, dah, dah.

And it'd be a real problem.

And then once it's out of control and it's like, "If you had listened to us, you jump."

And like I say, one of the frustrating things that I hear people say with regards to like black people in general is you guys are being victims.

Like how do you look somebody in the face that like, I was never able to meet my grandmother because no one was listening.

They were literally not listening to her when she said, "My head hurts."

They literally didn't listen to her.

My mother watched that, that traumatized her.

She had a mental illness, nobody listened to her.

You know, where in there am I being a victim?

These things happened.

And I think as more and more generations as we get further, like I don't think black women are gonna get quieter.

I think we're gonna get louder.

Just like that, you can't ignore... That's a trauma that happened that affected my mother, that affected me.

It's three generations but you just not listening to one black woman, that affected.

Like I want a grandma, I want her to bake me cookies instead of the car, I was denied all of that.

I feel like because people don't listen.

You know, like how do we get past that?

Because we're human, we participate to society.

Like people definitely eaten off of black girl culture.

I'm just gonna say that confidently.

I mean, I see that stuff everywhere.

And I remember telling my cohost at the current, I remember telling him, I said, "What frustrates me is that, I feel like black culture "everybody can see the latest shoes, the latest clothes, "the latest hip hop, this, that, and the other.

"But y'all can't hear when we scream and ouch."

And that really frustrates me.

So it's like, are you pretty (indistinct)?

Or like, what's the deal?

Like, I'm not understanding how they know to...

I mean, you could just look at a random Tik Tok and see black culture is copied, and mass produced constantly.

But why don't y'all hear our cries about racism?

How come it's taken so long for people to hear cries about police brutality?

Why is it taking so long?

Like they're just making laws about natural hair and it's not even sweeping.

It's like maybe one or two States.

Like I remember my mom telling me this.

I remember her telling me that she got this job.

She wore a wig to the interview and she said she wore a wig the first week.

But the second week she wore, she took it off, she said they called her into the room and was like, "Ma'am do you work here?"

Like stuff like that.

Like I hear all of these systemic things happening and you know, and it just inflames me when people go, "You're playing a victim."

Like now this stuff is really happening.

If I were to meet somebody that experienced the things that I experienced, I would understand if they had a standoff, standoffish, you know, thing.

I wouldn't go, "You're a victim."

I don't know, I feel like that's gas lighting, but I feel like that's a whole nother conversation.

There was a lot of ways that the system affected my family.

And then, you know, for me to be the age I'm a grown woman right now and to hear, "Oh, y'all just being victim.

"Y'all ain't pulling yourself up by your bootstraps."

Like hey, this happens?

(laughs) Again, I do think that calling me a victim is just suppressing my voice again to them.

So that's really all it could be.

- Yup, yup.

And as you were talking it just came up for me, just the word victim, right?

And it made me just start to think about what you're saying and that there are instances where, you know, people have been victimized, right?

But the person who has been doing the victimizing doesn't ever want to take accountability for that part.

- Absolutely not, absolutely not.

- Yeah and yet as a result, it's easier to, you know cause someone else to blame or say, "You're doing this, you're causing or creating this."

When you wouldn't even really have a story if none of these things had happened to you.

- I would be in a better place, I wouldn't even been able to complain (laughs) if this wasn't happening, you know.

Now you can look into somebody's life.

Like this joke was when my age group the running joke for hip hop artists was, they was acting like they was, you know like they was gang-banging and it wasn't like this.

You could look back into somebody's life and go, "Oh please, you had a good," you know what I'm saying?

That's one thing but if, you know, me, I'm in Minnesota and I'm having a very similar situation to somebody that's in, you know, Southern California that's having the same similar situation that somebody in Missouri and then the East coast, like we've never met.

I saw a thread of black women and they were talking about all these little things, the black women struggle in the workspace.

I mean, a lot of that stuff has been talked about on Twitter now just with the George Floyd and the racial reckoning and stuff like that.

But that stuff wasn't talked about that was stuff that I only heard amongst my aunts.

I never heard the discussions about natural hair being discussed and how this is seen as unprofessional when, you know, and then if you dig deeper black women are literally getting cancer so that we can look professional.

Like we're literally putting chemicals in our hair so that we can appear professional.

And it's like all these different ways that we're trying to adjust, and once again, our voice and our efforts are silenced and it's just frustrating.

And yeah, I think we ain't getting no more quieter.

I don't think that's what's gonna happen.

(laughs) - Another thought you triggered and talking is, I wonder and I'm not saying this is the only reason or the only reason why (indistinct) doing or come out of our body because we're not hurt internally.

So if people only notice the outer... And again, all of this can be unconscious, right?

Again, not saying we're doing it on purpose, we are who we are, right?

But I wonder if there's a notion even when you say like, you know, other cultures might say, "Oh, you know black women are loud."

Well maybe again, like you said, have you ever wondered why?

- Y'all (indistinct) when we're loud.

(laughs) I feel like my voice carries further.

- Absolutely, maybe there's a reason behind why you, me, others are loud.

And like you said, what is this thread?

And if people can just listen, maybe some of these things will be what it's supposed to be because, you know.

- I just don't understand how can you just not listen to a group of people for this long?

I feel like it's society playing in my face on that.

(laughs) Like, so y'all know everything about Beyonce, y'all know everything about like, Meg's dietary, you know what I'm saying?

Like little Wayne, like this, these you know, jazz.

Like there's things that black culture has produced and been able to contribute to society.

And everybody can tell you all that but you can't hit none of the nuances.

Like there's this big conversation right now, I'm in radio, so forgive me.

I'm going to talk about music.

(laughs) There's this big story about this; she's a Prince protege, her name's Danny Lee.

And she just released a song called Yellow Bone.

And this goes back to y'all not listening to black women.

And I listened to Charlemagne (indistinct) he's on the breakfast club and he was like, dismissive.

I don't see it, I think I don't see the big deal.

And it enraged me and I said, once again what black women are trying to say is hurtful to us.

People want, "It's not a big deal."

It is not a big deal to you, but it's a big deal to us.

I grew up here in red bone.

I grew up here in yellow bone.

My mama didn't play that.

My mama didn't play a lot of like societal stuff that some folks could do and that my mama didn't play none of that stuff like stepsister stuff.

We didn't do a lot of that stuff, my mama didn't play.

Like my grandmother is fair skin and my mother is dark skin.

So we got all different types of shades in my family.

So we never played, my mama did not play that.

But I do know that when I hear yellow bone or red bone it is referring to a black woman.

That's from me, from my upbringing.

And apparently I'm not the only one because when Danny Lee released this song it was black women that stood up and said, "No we're not doing this, you're promoting colorism."

And once again, the first knee jerk reaction that everybody has, it is not everybody, but what I saw outsiders who were not black women was, "Oh you're jealous of her 'cause she's light skinned."

You're jealous of her because this, and it's like so once again, our voices are being suppressed.

Now y'all can keep up with our hairstyles.

Y'all keep up with our dances.

Y'all keep up with our lyrics.

Y'all keep up with all of that stuff.

But when I tell you colorism hurts me, you don't compute; error 404, I don't get it.

And it's frustrating for me because I liked Danny Lee.

I actually do like her, but it's frustrating for me because when I think about music when I think about jazz, RNB, hip hop, soul, funk, blues that all came out of black culture, out of black culture.

So when you enjoy this music, you have to respect and understand that that is a creation of black culture.

So if you are going to be an artist that makes music that's very akin or connected or linked to black culture you should also educate yourself on the nuances.

And it frustrates me that, you know, very often we have these things being said that are just casually dismissive to the experience and the hurts and the pains and the traumas of black women and it's frustrating.

And then this is a really interesting conversation because Beyonce put out that song, Brown skin girl.

Everybody is like, "Well Beyonce put out Brown skin girl, "what's the deal?"

And it's like, how are y'all able to keep up with (indistinct) to keep up with all this cultural stuff but these other things you're not missing and either somebody is playing dumb or I don't know what.

(laughs) Because people can keep up a black culture, I feel like when it suits them or when they feel like they can exploit it.

But when we start talking about the heavy lifting the conversations about how black men are treated with police brutality, the conversations how black women's voices are suppressed everybody playing the nut role.

And it's frustrating and I never saw that.

I remember when I was younger my mom used to be so frustrated me so much.

It frustrated her that on the show Martin, (indistinct) fair skin and Pam's dark skin.

And my mom was like, "You know, they did that on purpose."

And I am looking at it from, Gina is a talent... Tisha Campbell is talented.

Katrina Arnold is talented.

And I said in my young mind, I'm thinking, "Now they played the right role."

And the older I'm getting now I'm like, "Oh, colorism, okay, momma I see what you..." and it used to just make me so mad.

I apologized to her by the way.

(laughs) I mean, just these nuances that, how are we able to see all these things about black culture?

How are we able to copy?

Like, and I mean to the T like the dances, the hairstyles, the clothing but when I talk to you about colorism, huh?

- Yeah, yeah.

- When I talk to you about my boys being suppressed, huh?

- And I'll say one thing, you know from a therapeutic stance is that I think sometimes it's easier to see all of those outer things (indistinct) go within and admit that I'm a part of the problem.

If I see you and all the hurts and pains that are happening inside of you, you know, when it comes to racism when it comes to mental health, you know, all the things that I don't see.

And I'm not excusing it (indistinct) but I wonder sometimes when we see that, it's people not wanting to take accountability.

And so therefore it's easier to dismiss it than to address it.

- I do that with my own personal problems.

So then yes, I agree with you.

(laughs) - Yup, Sani, I heard so much.

Like you shared so much today and thank you for doing that, especially with someone you don't know, you know.

This is myself, but I really do appreciate that you trusted this moment to tell your story yet again.

'Cause it sounds like you've been telling your story from a very young age, maybe not in its totality, but you've been doing that.

And you remind me today how powerful stories are and that we need to share our story over and over again because other people really need to hear your story, right?

People need to hear your journey and your journey as my agency has in the tagline, your journey through healing.

And that, you know, was something that was intuitive for me when I was, you know, just even starting my work I wanted a name that really meant something.

And you know, the whole pieces and puzzles things people ask me what that means all the time.

And really it's us putting together the pieces of our own story to try to make meaning out of that.

And then coming out with some sort of peace.

Some sort of peace and empowerment so that we can move our story forward within ourselves.

Like you said earlier, you heard your own story for the first time in the past.

And that is so powerful.

I've watched that happen so many times and I'm always amazed as the onlooker.

I'm observing a person hearing their story and also like I can see your eyes moving and shifting and like thinking and those kinds of things.

And that's so amazing because there's nothing but growth that can come out of that.

And so a lot of times I really do encourage you to keep sharing that, you know, whether it's in a therapeutic space like this or with others.

As again, it sounds like you've been doing long before you and I have had this conversation, keep doing that because not only are you helping other people you're helping yourself to continue to sort and sift through, you're deciding in your mind what to keep and then you're also deciding what to discard.

Like there's gonna be pieces that don't serve you anymore and you will let those pieces go, right?

You'll let them just fly away like balloons flying in the air.

Then there's pieces that you will hold on to when you will keep because they have been tools that have worked for the greater good of your growth and healing.

And through your generational healing, you are helping not only your mom gain her ability to understand all of that, because again, when she's sitting in her trauma, right, and wondering what the heck happened and what's going on you are also helping her to piecemeal those stories and then you move this story on with generations to come, right?

And so in your story today, you named four generations.

You named your grandmother, your mother you and your daughter, and how all of this thread of things will, you know kind of impact all of you or has impacted all of you.

One of my things, you know, and this has all come about for me by happenstance.

I didn't start out to do this, but it's moving from trauma to healing, right?

And a lot of people say, "Well, what doctors mean, "what does that mean?"

Like, right, there's this trauma piece and we know we wanna get to healing and we're healing simultaneously as you named throughout your whole story where you're healing, you're doing all of that.

It's almost like you're doing like this infinity sign, this figure, right.

You're doing them both at the same time.

But people ask what happens in between, right?

It's the steps that you're taking.

You're just continuing to move forward.

You have this, what do you call it?

This internal piece about you that knows how to intuitively just continue to walk and figure it out.

You don't have the answers, but you just kept walking.

You didn't care what got hurled at you, you kept walking, you kept shouting.

You're like, "Do you hear me, do you hear me?

"Do you hear me?"

Right, somebody is gonna hear me, right?

Someday, somebody is going to hear me.

And even though that didn't happen, you know as you were 11, 12, 13 years old Sani, you are putting that voice out continuously now and you're being heard.

And again, it might be in bits and pieces.

It might be through your voice over, it might be yelling.

You know, all those kinds of things (indistinct) with story, your mom's story.

But there's bits and pieces here that at some point this conglomeration will be a healing package that is going to be not only do you get to stand on it and your mom gets to stand on it but generations to come will stand on that platform.

And that platform may not even be finished in this lifetime but we're passing that on in such a powerful way that your generations to come are definitely going to put a period on the end of this.

You started something, your mom started something, your grandmother started something.

I'm sure there's more story behind what you have been told about your grandmother.

Because like you said earlier, and I could have guessed without even meeting your mom and say, "Oh, you know "my mom, you know, she made it happen.

"She's that kind of thing."

I see it coming through you, right?

You are continuing to tell that story so I said all of that to say again thank you for sharing that with me.

I know that was a lot and it's bringing about a lot of emotions probably but those emotions are there to serve your journey.

They're actually there to fuel you.

They're not gonna feel good all the time but they're your fuel, right?

They are your fuel good, bad, and indifferent.

As I will say, I'm so sorry that that had to happen to you.

I'm so sorry you were not heard.

And that is not okay.

You remind me why the work that I'm doing in the community is so important.

And the research that I did was with young adult African-American moms and their babies.

And the reason why I chose that group is because I wanted this young enough group who is parenting a young enough, you know group of children to know.

So if you have to had trauma in your life and you know there's something you can do differently, would you pass that on and give that to your children?

And did you know you can start right now?

And so many of these women are like, "No, nobody's ever told me "that I've had to go through my own trauma.

"I didn't know it was okay to change "the trajectory of my children's lives "while also changing the trajectory of my life."

And so you reminded me why that, for me that research was so important and it's still important because what came out of it that connects to what you just shared with me today is the tools of listening, not just with our ears, but listening to the in-betweens of the story.

Listen with our hearts, listening with interest.

So a tool is interest.

If we are not interested in someone's story, we're probably not going to hear all their story, right?

So we have to show interest.

We have to partner with your mom, with you.

So when your mom shared her story, back when she was asking for help or receiving a first diagnosis, for instance, if a help provider didn't partner with her then they couldn't have heard her full story.

There's other elements there that could have been making a huge difference in how she would then move forward, how her children would be cared for, how you would have gotten the support system she needed so that she could have, you know held her own, start in her own mind.

It had capacity to also hold her children, therefore her children wouldn't have had to go... And you know, in the system.

Now I'm not here to blame or point fingers, I wasn't there, but I'm just saying that there is much needed information and resources that's needed as you named.

But I also want to point out that if we, and I'm gonna put myself in that category, We as professionals continue to partner with our clients and patients, and truly, truly hear their voices, letting them lead our work in our sessions.

Then, I mean, we can't lose there.

Because if we're partnering, they do their part which is telling their story and showing up, we hear and we work together as a team to divide the right treatment plan and the pathway.

So then there are some of those pieces, as you said earlier, that could have been avoided.

- Right, I really liked that you said partnering.

Even when you said it, it sounded weird.

Like my therapist is my partner?

(laughs) - Yes, absolutely.

Because I can't do this work without you, and you can help me, like we can do it together.

And then what, you know, we're creating a beautiful connection and partnership to be able to move this forward.

And then you're taking your ownership in the healing process.

I'm taking my ownership in the piece that I can lean to that.

And wallah, I mean, I think it's so simple sometimes people forget to do it even on the professional side.

- Yeah, because it is so simple, it's easy to overlook and it's like the simplicity at a driving test.

You take the first time (laughs) and it's all complicated.

- Yes, so what I really encourage folks and I do this in every platform that I move into, is to encourage folks to really partner with their patients and their clients so that they allow their patients and their clients to do the talking.

Just like I did today, I wanna hear your story.

Your story is what matters.

And it's going to give me the tool to know what I then need to do.

And then I'll do my part and then you'll trust me some more and you'll give me some more.

And then I'll do my part and I'll give you some more.

And then if we keep going back and we're going to keep doing this and then you're gonna trust this process.

And what I would say, you know, what we're taking away from this, is continue to tell your story, continue to find people who are going to listen because everyone is not going to listen.

They're not gonna give you, they're not gonna show their interests.

But one of the takeaways is, if you keep telling your story and you keep allowing that story to open doors so that you can continue to start.

And even if you're not there, start to trust the process of a process that didn't allow you to trust in the past.

And so you keep doing that and that's gonna continue to move you towards healing, why?

Because it's going to keep unlocking all the pieces that have kept those pieces in the back of your mind in prison, right?

When there's silence, but we can't do anything about it.

But when you keep talking about them when you free them, that's when healing begins.

That's when the journey continues and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

And will you go through some growing pains on this journey?

Absolutely.

- No.

(laughs) You know what Sani, you have already endured a lot of that.

So you are further in your healing process than you probably think, than you probably know, but again that has to make sense to you until you arrive there, you know, when you're supposed to arrive there.

But as I teach us in yoga, you are exactly where you need to be right now.

- I Remember that when I'm feeling uncomfortable.

It's the uncomfortable feelings, I know when I hit something 'cause then I wanna cry.

(laughs) It feels uncomfortable, like my body wants to cry, my body wants to relieve.

But then like the tough of me is like, "No, we can't cry."

- Remember that when you hit something, you hit like gold.

That is actually your body and your psyche telling you something, "Here's another area."

So the more you hit it, again, the more it's revealed the more you can work on it and work with it.

But if it's not revealed, it's always just gonna lay dormant in there causing trouble.

- Causing triggers, all kinds of triggers.

- Oh yeah, yeah.

So listen at those pieces and know that even if it's crying, it makes you upset like any of those things, it is information.

I always call it data.

It's the data we actually need.

So thank your body for bringing that up for you, because if it's still left in the unconscious and it's not moving up past the repression barrier, could we repress 'cause we don't wanna feel, we need to move up past them, break through the repression barrier so that we can actually solve what's going on.

- Right, right.

- They're gifts, they're tiny little gifts, but they hurt, I know.

I know it probably sounds like it's easier said than done, I know they hurt.

But through this type of therapeutic work, that's why you have a partner; because your partner is going through this with you and so that we can do this work together then at the any end, it's going to be, you know, such a beautiful thing.

And whether you've already started doing this or not, you're going to at some point which sounds maybe unconventional, you're gonna thank the process, because now you're gonna have this beautiful end result that you're just gonna say, "You know what?

"It was hard, it was painful.

"That sucked, this sucked."

But you know what, I'm where I'm supposed to be.

And none of this would have happened without my story.

- I'm at that part, 'cause I've been on my own since I was 14.

But now that I'm grown, I'm like, "What kind "of habit did I learn that stuff when I was 14?"

Because there was a level of that stuff I need to use today.

So you're right, I am in that part of the healing.

I am appreciative of the process.

Like I remember putting up a post on Facebook, like 14 year old Sani was slapped the hell out of me for saying, but I am glad that I went through those challenges, because like you said the end result is I do like my life right now.

So, right.

(laughs) - Yes, yeah.

And the last thing I'll say and it's kind of a repeat of what I said earlier.

And I can't claim this as my own but from the indigenous people, when one of us comes on for healing, we heal generations before us and we heal generations to come.

And I love that with all of my heart because it's so real and I've seen it happen.

And I would say, you keep taking those bulk rages steps and it's gonna be hard, it's gonna be painful.

But as you have already seen and deemed right now that's your journey.

Those are your steps.

- Yeah, well, I thank you.

I thank you Dr. Sweeney, thank you.

I really appreciate you listening to me and being understanding about it and just thank you.

This was good today.

(laughs) - Thank you for trusting me.