IF OHIO DOES AWAY WITH PROPERTY TAXES.

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>> WELCOME TO "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD. "

I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HIGH PROPERTY TAXES, THE ISSUE IS TOPIC NUMBER ONE FOR MANY HOMEOWNERS AROUND OHIO.

STATE LAWMAKERS ARE HEARING FROM THEM, AND LAWMAKERS ARE TRYING TO TWEAK THE SYSTEM TO LOWER RATES OR AT LEAST SLOW THE INCREASE.

> >> WHO PAYS IF OHIO DOES AWAY WITH PROPERTY TAXES?

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>> WELCOME TO "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD. "

I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HIGH PROPERTY TAXES, THE ISSUE IS PROBABLY TOPIC NUMBER ONE FOR MANY HOMEOWNERS AROUND OHIO.

STATE LAWMAKERS ARE HEARING FROM THEM, AND LAWMAKERS ARE TRYING TO TWEAK THE SYSTEM TO LOWER RATES OR AT LEAST SLOW THE INCREASE.

A GROUP CONTINUES ITS CAMPAIGN TO GET A QUESTION ON NEXT YEAR'S BALLOT THAT WOULD ABOLISH ALL PROPERTY TAXES IN OHIO.

A NEW STUDY SAYS IF IT WINS, OHIO WOULD BE IN A BIG FIX.

THE TAX FOUNDATION SAYS IF THE STATE WERE TO INCREASE INCOME TAXES TO MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE, THE STATEWIDE AVERAGE TOTAL INCOME TAX WOULD BE JUST UNDER 13%.

RIGHT NOW, THE AVERAGE OF STATE AND LOCAL INCOME TAXES COMBINED IS 9%.

JAKE ZUCKERMAN, REPORTS SHOW THE MONEY HAS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE.

>> IN SOME COUNTIES OVER IN APPALACHIA, IT'S ALL THE WAY UP TO 23%.

I THINK THE WHOLE THING IS A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.

I WOULDN'T READ IT NECESSARILY TO SAY -- IT'S CERTAINLY NOT AUTOMATIC AND IT'S PROBABLY NOT EVEN PROBABLE THAT THIS IS HOW THE CHIPS WOULD FALL, BUT I THINK IT'S LIKE YOU SAID.

THE MONEY HAS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE.

IF WE CUT A LEG OFF, WE NEED TO GROW ANOTHER LEG SOMEWHERE, AND I THINK THAT THIS STUDY CAPTURES JUST HOW DIFFICULT OR HOW UGLY OR MESSY THAT COULD BE.

>> ARE INCOME TAXES A MORE FAIR WAY IF WE WUF OULD HAVE TO RAISE THEM?

IS THERE A MORE FAIR WAY?

ACROSS RURAL COUNTIES, IS THERE A MORE EQUITABLE WAY?

>> IT'S MORE EQUITABLE THAN RAISING THE SALES TAX DRAMATICALLY.

THE CHALLENGE PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND, AND EVEN IF YOU ARE A RENTER, YOU'RE PAYING PROPERTY TAXES.

THE LANDLORD BILLS THAT INTO THE RENT AND A LOT OF TIME PEOPLE VOTE FOR LEVIES AND SAY, I DON'T PAY FOR PROPERTY TAXES.

WELL, YOU DO.

WE NEED TO DISTRIBUTE THE BURDEN MORE EQUITABLY.

>> THIS GETS ON THE BALLOT WHICH IS NOT A SLAM-DUNK.

THE VOTERS APPROVE IT WHICH IS NOT NECESSARILY A GUARANTEE.

LET'S JUST SAY THAT HAPPENS.

IF VOTERS DO ABOLISH PROPERTY TAXES, WHERE WOULD LAWMAKERS GO FIRST DO YOU THINK?

>> THERE'S NO ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL SOLUTION.

OUR STATE HAS NEVER CONFRONTED AN ISSUE LIKE THIS, WHETHER UNDER DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN CONTROL.

MAYBE THE CRISIS IN THE '70s.

MAYBE.

IT'S A LITTLE BEFORE MY TIME, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE HAVE $19 BILLION WORTH OF PROPERTY TAXES THAT ARE USED BY LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, ALL DIFFERENT FORMS AND SIZES.

WE GET $13 BILLION IN SALES TAX.

AS JAKE SAID, YOU TAKE OUT ONE OF THOSE LEGS, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

NOBODY HAS A SOLUTION, BUT HERE'S ONE NOVEL CONCEPT WE CAN DO TO HELP CHIP AWAY.

I AGREE WITH JAKE, I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE AN UPHILL BATTLE ON THE BALLOT.

WHY DON'T WE LOOK AT HOW WE'RE SPENDING MONEY AT THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT LEVEL?

DeSANTIS HAS TAKEN A DOGE-LIKE APPROACH.

WHY DO WE HAVE 611 SCHOOL DISTRICT?

MAYBE WE CAN CONSOLIDATE.

LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT IT.

WE HAVE TO LOOK IT A COLLECTIVE BARGAINING BECAUSE 50% OF EVERY DOLLAR BEING SPENT GOES THERE.

>> IS THAT POLITICALLY?

>> THAT'S A JOB FOR A REPORTER BECAUSE THERE'S GOING TO BE A MILLION STORIES COMING OUT OF THAT.

>> IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN WITHOUT A CATASTROPHE.

>> RIGHT.

>> A CATASTROPHE, SO- CALLED, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE'S OPINIONS WOULD BE THE ABOLISHMENT OF A PROPERTY TAX.

>> RIGHT, BUT, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING THAT YOU JUST BROUGHT UP, THOSE ARE ISSUES, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT UNIONS.

WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT RAISING THIS TAX AND COMPENSATING OVER HERE, OR HAVING STATE GOVERNMENT COME IN AND TELL THE LOCALS HOW O DO IT, OH, I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF CONTROVERSY THERE, AND THE OTHER THING IS CONSIDER THIS.

THAT WHEN YOU HAVE LOCAL TAXES, THOSE ARE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE MOST CONNECTED TO THEIR LOCAL LEADERS, THEIR LOCAL SCHOOLS, THEIR LOCAL LIBRARIES.

THEY USE THEM THE MOST.

THEY KNOW THE PEOPLE THERE, AND I THINK IT'S A RECIPE FOR A LOT OF CONTROVERSY.

>> I DID MATH --I DID MATH.

IT'S ALWAYS DANGEROUS.

>> YOUR A JOURNALIST, MIKE.

I DON'T KNOW.

>> I CHECKED MY MATH.

LET'S TAKE A $75,000 YEARLY SALARY WHICH IS A DECENT MIDDLE CLASS SALARY.

A 13% INCREASE IN THE INCOME TAX WOULD MEAN THAT PERSON WOULD PAY AN EXTRA $3,000 IN INCOME TAXES PER YEAR.

SOUNDS LIKE A LOT OF MONEY.

YOU LOOK AT THE MEDIAN PROPERTY TAX OF FRANKLIN COUNTY AND IT'S $4,000, AND THEN YOU GO INTO THE AFFLUENT SUBURBS AND YOU'RE TALKING $6,000 OR $7,000.

$3,000 MORE ON INCOME TAXES VERSUS PROPERTY TAX, I'M GOING TO TAKE THE INCOME TAX.

>> THAT'S TOO RATIONAL BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS IS WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT RAISING TAXES, ALL OF A SUDDEN IT'S RAISING TAXES.

OH MY GOD.

MY INCOME TAXES ARE GOING UP.

OH, THE PROPERTY TAXES, AT LEAST I CAN VOTE ON THEM.

UNLESS, YOU KNOW, SO THE CHALLENGE HERE, IT WILL BE A BAD SCENARIO, AND PRESUMABLY AT THE --IF THAT MEASURE WERE TO PASS, IT TAKES EFFECT IN 30 DAYS, AND SO THE NEW GOVERNOR, YOU KNOW, WILL HAVE A MISERABLE SITUATION, THE LEGISLATURE.

SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO DO?

YOU HAVE TO TRY TO COME UP WITH SOME RESOLUTION RIGHT NOW THAT TAKES THE STEAM OUT OF THE ENTIRE MOVEMENT, AND I DON'T --I'M NOT ADVOCATING PUTTING BARRIERS TO GETTING ON THE BALLOT, BUT I AM ADVOCATING THAT YOU REALLY DO HAVE TO DO SOMETHING NOW BECAUSE OTHERWISE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A DISASTROUS SCENARIO.

>> THAT'S WHAT THE REPORT SAYS.

YOU CAN'T JUST ABOLISH PROPERTY TAX.

YOU HAVE TO PUT IT BEFORE TAXPAYERS AND VOTERS WHAT THE PLAN IS TO MAKE UP FOR THAT REVENUE.

>> MM-HMM.

>> WILL THAT BE ON THE BALLOT?

>> NO, IT WON'T.

I WOULD CALL THAT SOUND FISCAL POLICY FOR A STATE TRYING TO CHART ITS FUTURE.

THAT'S NOOT T WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT.

WE'RE LOOKING AT AN UP OR DOWN GROUP.

>> THERE'S A CREATIVE WRITERS GROUP IN THE BALLOT BOARD.

DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD WRITE A BALLOT LANGUAGE THAT WOULD BE --THAT WOULD LAY THIS OUT SAYING, THIS IS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOU ABOLISH PROPERTY TAXES?

>> WELL, AT SOME POINT, IT'S GOING TO BE TOO VOLUMINOUS.

WHO'S GOING TO READ THE FIN PRINT?

THE CREATIVE WRITERS HAVE TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION OF SAYING HERE'S THE REAL IMPACT, BUT JO SAID, YOU KNOW, IT'S A LOCAL ISSUE, AND IT IS A LOCAL ISSUE.

THE NUMBER ONE WAY TO STOP YOUR PROPERTY TAXES FROM BEING INCREASED IS START VOTING DOWN THE LEVIES OR HOLD YOUR LOCAL GOVERNMENTS MORE ACCOUNTABLE.

ALL THESE THINGS WERE VOTED ON BY THE VOTERS AND THEY APPROVED IT.

THEY'RE SAYING, SAY FOR MYSELF.

HOLD YOUR GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE.

>> YOU BETTER HAVE ALL THE STATEWIDE CANDIDATES, NOT JUST FOR GOVERNOR, BUT ALL THE OTHER RACES SAY, IF IT'S ON THE BALLOT, VOTE AGAINST THIS, AND THE CHALLENGE, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY HAS BACKED OFF NOW, BUT EK RAMASWAMY SAID ABOLISHING THE INCOME TAX, HIS ADVISERS TOLD HIM, THIS IS NOT VERY GOOD, AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE THE NEXT GOVERNOR, THEN YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT PROBLEM.

>> TIME-OUT.

THE LIBERAL BASTION OF NORTH DAKOTA VOTED ON THIS LAST YEAR.

THEY VOTED ON A PROPOSAL TO ABOLISH PROPERTY TAXES.

IT WENT DOWN BY 64%.

64% OF THE VOTERS IN NORTH DAKOTA SAID NO TO ABOLISHING PROPERTY TAXES.

IT WAS A PRETTY ACTIVE CAMPAIGN THERE AS WELL.

ANYWAY, GOVERNOR DeWINE'S BAN ON WEED LIGHT IS ON HOLD.

A JUDGE THIS WEEK PUT A TEMPORARY BLOCK ON THE BAN OF INTOXICATING HEMP PRODUCTS.

FRANKLIN COUNTY JUDGE CARL AVENI SAID THE GOVERNOR OVERSTEPPED IN SEPARATION OF POWERS AS DEFINED BY THE CONSTITUTION.

THE JUDGE RULED THE POWER TO BAN DELTA 8 AND OTHER PRODUCTS RESTS WITH THE LEGISLATURE.

THE JUDGE PUT A TWO-WEEK HOLD ON THE BAN.

THE RULING HAS PROMPTED REPUBLICAN LEGISLATIVE LEADERS TO QUESTION WHETHER A SINGLE JUDGE CAN STOP A LAW OR A GOVERNOR'S EXECUTIVE ORDER.

MIKE GONIDAKIS, DID GOVERNOR DeWINE OVERSTEP?

DID HE VIOLATE THE SEPARATION OF POWERS PROVISION?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

HE GOT IT RIGHT.

MIKE DeWINE GETS A LOT OF CREDIT -- CRITICISM, AND TAKES A LOT OF CREDIT.

HE CARES ABOUT OUR CHILDREN.

HERE'S A PICTURE FROM HIS PRESS CONFERENCE.

HERE'S A CANDY MY SON BUYS WAY TOO MUCH.

IT'S GOING TO ROT OUT HIS TEETH.

THE BOTTOM IS DRUGS.

IF HE ATE ONE BAG OF THESE, HED DIE.

WE'VE GOT GROWN MEN AND WOMEN, AND WE TELL THE TOBACCO COMPANIES, YOU CAN'T HAVE THIS, AND BOOZE COMPANIES YOU CAN'T MARKET TO KIDS, BUT IT'S OKAY TO PUT THIS STUFF --THIS CRAP OUT THERE?

IT'S WRONG, AND GOVERNOR DeWINE - - >> THE JUDGE ACTUALLY SAID IN THE --IN THE SUMMARY, THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN, BUT LAWMAKERS NEED TO DO IT.

NOT THE GOVERNOR.

NOW WHAT THE GOVERNOR HERB, SAID, DURING COVID, HE TOOK ALL KINDS OF HEATS FOR EXECUTIVE ORDERS, BUT EXECUTIVE LAWMAKERS ARE NOW SAYING THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO GO.

>> AS MIKE SAID, THE LEGISLATURE NEEDS TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE.

THERE'S A SERIOUS ISSUE HERE.

IT'S BEEN A SERIOUS ISSUE IN A LOT OF SPACE, DEALING WITH ANY KIND OF RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA.

THESE KINDS OF PRODUCTS, AND YOU REALLY HAVE TO TALK ABOUT PRODUCT LABELING, PRESENTATION OF THESE PRODUCTS.

HOW DO YOU PROTECT THE KIDS FROM GETTING A HOLD OF THEM, WHEN PEOPLE --WHEN ADULTS BUY THIS AND BRING THIS HOME?

THAT'S A CHALLENGE ALSO.

SO THE LEGISLATURE MAY BE MAD AT THE GOVERNOR, BUT THEN THEY HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO STEP UP AND DO SOMETHING.

>> AND IF I COULD, THIS IS THE GOOD AND BAD OF MIKE DeWINE.

OVER THE PAST YEAR, MIKE DeWINE HAS DONE A MASTERFUL JOB OF FORCING THIS ISSUE TO THE FOREFRONT.

YOU SAW THOSE PICTURES.

HE HAS BEEN --HE SENT CHILDREN OF STATE OFFICIALS INTO GAS STATIONS TO GO BUY THIS STUFF AND SHOW WHAT --LOOK.

I'M A CHILD AND COME OUT WITH THESE INTOXICATING DRUGS.

THAT'S A PROBLEM.

AS HE HAS SAID, HE HAS PUSHED FOR LEGISLATION TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM AND HE'S FAILED.

HE'S UNEQUIVOCALLY FAILED AND HE'S TRYING TO SAY, I KNOW I SPENT THE PASS YEAR TRYING TO GET A YEAR PASSED, BUT I HAD THIS POWER ALL ALONG.

THERE'S A CLEAR SEPARATION OF POWER.

IF HE DIDN'T NEED THE LEGISLATURE, WHY DID HE SPEND A YEAR TRYING TO GET THEM?

>> HE SAID EARLY ON, EKD HE COULD DO IT.

>> HE DID, BUT THERE'S ONE THING WE'RE MISSING HERE.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS.

HE FORCED THIS TO THE FOREFRONT.

WE'RE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION, AND SO ARE THE LAWMAKERS, AND I THINK THAT'S KEY BECAUSE THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IT.

THE PROBLEM IS THEY AGREE ON A MASS NUMBER OF THINGS, RIGHT?

WHEN IT COMES TO THIS ISSUE.

THEY'RE JUST NOT PASSING A BILL ON THE THINGS THEY AGREE ON.

THERE'S, LIKE, LITTLE THINGS HERE AND THERE THAT THEY DISAGREE ON, AND THEY LET IT HOLD UP THE BILL.

SO THE QUESTION WILL BE, WILL THEY COME UP WITH A BILL ON THE THINGS THAT THEY CAN ALL PRETTY MUCH AGREE ON?

>> THAT WOULD BE A COMPROMISE.

>> IT WOULD BE COMPROMISE, YEAH.

>> VERY SADLY, YOU MIGHT WAIT UNTIL SOME CHILD DIES, AND THEN WE'LL HAVE A PIECE OF LEGISLATION CALLED THE JIMMY JONES BILL, AND -- >> IT'S TRUE.

>> AND SHARED THIS WEEK, A PUBLIC SCHOOL, TWO MIDDLE SCHOOL KIDS ARE IN THE HOSPITAL BECAUSE THEY GOT A HOLD OF THIS STUFF THAT LOOKS LIKE GUMMIES AND NERDS AND SUGAR BABIES AND STUFF.

WE HAVE GO TO GET THIS OFF THE STREETS OR OUT OF THE GAS STATIONS OR OUR KIDS' VES ARE ON THE LINES HERE.

>> THE ARGUMENT IS A JUDGE CANNOT MAKE A RULE FOR THE WHOLE STATE OR ONE JUDGE CANNOT MAKE A RULING THAT AFFECTS THE WHOLE COUNTRY.

HERB?

>> LET'S, YOU KNOW, OHIO, THE OHIO SUPREME COURT, THEY'LL ADDRESS IT WHEN IT GETS THERE, AND THE SAME THING AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL, BUT THE IMPORTANT THING -- >> FOR 90 DAYS.

THEY'LL BE OUT OF BUSINESS IF A COURT WOULD UPHOLD THIS BAN.

>> YEAH, BUT -- AND IF THE COURT DOES UPHOLD IT, THEN THAT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION.

I WOULD -- SORRY.

I WOULD SAY IF THEY GO OUT OF BUSINESS, GOOD FOR THEM.

I'M GLAD THEY'RE OUT OF BUSINESS IF THEY CAN'T CHANGE THEIR LABELING AND MARKETING.

YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN BUSINESS.

>> ONE JUDGE IN FRANKLIN COUNTY, OR IN CUYAHOGA COUNTY, SHOULD THEY BE ABLE TO ISSUE A RULING TO SAY, THIS RULE OR ORDER IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL?

>> IF WE DON'T HAVE SOMETHING LIKE THAT, WE COULD BE IN A SITUATION WHERE IN FRANKLIN COUNTY YOU COULD NOT SELL HEMP, BUT IN WHATEVER OTHER COUNTY, YOU CAN.

REPUBLICANS AT THE STATEHOUSE HAVE BEEN PASSING PREEMPTION BILLS THAT EXPLICITLY SAY WE DON'T WANT THIS -- THE PATCHWORK IS THE ARGUMENT.

WE CONTINUE WANT A PATCHWORK.

WE WANT CERTAINTY IN THE LAW.

WE WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW, GUNS BEING OBVIOUSLY AN EXAMPLE.

IT SHOULDN'T BE LEGAL TO HAVE A GUN IN THIS COUNTY AND ILLEGAL IN THAT COUNTY.

IT'S CONFUSING.

NO ONE COULD KNOW.

>> GOOD POINT.

>> I THINK IT'S AN ISSUE TOO.

IT'S HARD TO BE A PURIST HERE, AND THERE MAY BE SOME ISSUES WHERE YOU CAN SORT OF HAVE LOCAL DIFFERENCES OR WHATEVER, BUT IF IT'S SOMETHING REALLY VERY, VERY SIGNIFICANT, YOU KNOW, I THINK YOU WOULD SAY, OKAY.

LET'S LET THE LOCAL JUDGE MAKE THE RULING.

IF IT GETS OVERTURNED, SO BE IT, BUT, IN FACT, YOU NEED --YOU NEED SOMEBODY TO STEP IN.

>> AND LOGICALLY, A SIMILAR JUDGE IN A STATE, EVEN IF IT'S A LARGE STATE MAKES MORE SENSE THAN PERHAPS A JUDGE IN CALIFORNIA OR IN TEXAS MAKING THE RULING FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY OR SHOULD IT MATTER?

>> YOU'RE RIGHT.

THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES RULED YOU CAN'T DO NATIONAL INJUNCTIONS ANYMORE.

THEY STRUCK THAT DOWN.

WE CAN TAKE THAT SAME CONCEPT AND BRING IT TO OHIO AND SAY A LOCAL JUDGE IN CINCINNATI CAN'T SET STATEWIDE POLICY, AND MAYBE THEY CAN SET UP A FRANKLIN OR HAMILTON COUNTY OR CINCINNATI, AND THEN EXPEDITE IT TO THE SUPREME COURT IF IT'S A CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUE.

>> WOULD IT BE FOR FALLOUT?

THE POWER IS CHALLENGING RIGHT NOW.

>> THE DEMOCRATS ARE OUT OF POWER.

THEY GO TO JUDGES IN CALIFORNIA.

THEY GET REPUBLICAN LAWS OVERTURNED OR HALTED.

REPUBLICANS WHEN THEY'RE OUT OF POWER, THEY GO TO JUDGES IN TEXAS TO GET DEMOCRATIC LAWS HALTED, RIGHT?

>> EXACTLY.

THAT'S EXACTLY IT.

>> IT'S -- >> BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF BEHOLDER.

>> AND THIS AGAIN, REINFORCES WHY THE LEGISLATURE NEEDS TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE.

>> YEP.

>> THE REDISTANCING COMMISSION -- SPEAKING OF STEPPING UP TO THE PLATE.

THE REDISTRICTING COMMISSION MEETS NEXT WEEK.

WHAT THEY WILL DISCUSS REMAINING VERY MUCH UP IN THE AIR.

REPUBLICANS HAVE YET TO PRESENT A PROPOSED MAP OF THE STATE'S 15 CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS.

HOUSE SPEAKER MATT HUFFMAN WOULD NOT PROMISE A DRAFT MAP.

A LEADING DEMOCRAT ON THE EXCISION DANI ISAACSOHN SAID, SOMETHING PASSED YEARS AGO REQUIRES PUBLIC DEBATE ON PROPOSED MAPS, BUT SPECULATION REMAINS THAT THE REPUBLICANS WILL WAIT TO PRESENT A MAP UNTIL THE FINAL PHASE OF THE PROCESS WHICH ALLOWS FOR A SIMPLE MAJORITY OF LAWMAKERS TO ADOPT THE MAP.

JO INGLES, HOW LONG WILL THIS MEETING BE ON TUESDAY?

>> I'M NOT GOING TO BET ON, THAT BUT I AM GOING TO SAY THAT I THINK THAT THERE IS AN INCENTIVE AT LEAST FOR REPUBLICANS TO HOLD ON UNTIL NOVEMBER TO UNVEIL THIS MAP BECAUSE IF THEY WAIT, THE LONGER THEY CAN HOLD OFF, THE FEWER SHOTS GET FIRED AT THAT MAP, AND THEY CAN PASS IT WITH A SIMPLE MAJORITY IN NOVEMBER AND GET EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT AND NOT HAVE TO GIVE IN TO THE DEMOCRATS AT ALL.

IF THERE IS A MAP, I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY LATE IN THIS PROCESS, AND I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF TIME FOR PUBLIC DEBATE, AND -- >> DO THEY FACE ANY REPERCUSSIONS?

ANY PENALTY FOR WAITING UNTIL THE FINAL MINUTE AND KIND OF SNEAKING IT PAST AT THE END?

>> NO, AND I THINK IN ANY LEGISLATURE, YOU NEED A DEADLINE.

I WOULD SAY, 80% OF THE NEGOTIATION HAPPENS IN THE LAST 20% OF THE TIME OR THINGS LIKE THAT, AND ALSO I THINK THAT THERE'S TYPICALLY WITH THESE THINGS, MORE NEGOTIATION GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES A POLITICIAN COMES OUT AND SAYS, THERE IS NO MAP, YOU KNOW, WE'RE JUST TALKING.

YOU KNOW, I --I THINK IT'S A LITTLE NAIVE TO THINK THAT NOBODY HAS BEEN PONDERING IN ONE OVER THERE.

>> THERE'S A MAP OUT THERE.

WE JUST DON'T SEE IT THERE.

THERE ARE PROBABLY SEVERAL MAPS OUT, BUT WE'VE NEVER SEEN THEM.

>> I THINK THE GOP MAJORITY HAS A VERY GOOD SENSE OF WHAT THE MAP LOOKS LIKE.

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW IF THE DETAILS ARE SPECIFIED, AND THE FACT IT WILL BE SPRUNG AT THE LAST MINUTE AND IT'S FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, SMART POLITICS.

>> THAT MEANS, MIKE, IT'S GOING TO BE A MAP THAT FAVORS REPUBLICANS MORE SO THAN THE CURRENT MAP.

OTHERWISE THEY WOULD PRESENT IT NOW.

>> YEAH, PROBABLY, AND WE'RE SPECULATING NOW.

WE'RE SPECULATING.

IT'LL PROBABLY FAVOR REPUBLICANS MORE BECAUSE VOTERS PUT REPUBLICANS IN OFFICE, BUT KEEP IN MIND IN 2018, WHAT THE VOTERS APPROVE BY 75% OF THE VOTE, WHICH IS BASICALLY ARTICLE 19 OF THE STATE CONSTITUTION.

IT'S A THREE-STEP PROCESS, THE LEGISLATURE MET IN SEPTEMBER.

THE COMMISSION GETS TOGETHER IN OCTOBER, AND IF THEY CAN'T GET A RESOLUTION, IT GOES BACK FOR SIMPLE MAJORITY.

THE VOTERS FOR THE STATE OF OHIO APPROVED THIS BY 75% OF THE VOTE, AND WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT STATEHOUSE MAPS.

THAT WAS UNANIMOUSLY APPROVED, BIPARTISAN.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CONGRESSIONAL MAPS RUGT IGHT NOW.

WE HAVE A HISTORY OF BIPARTISANSHIP, APPROVAL.

ALISON RUSSO WHO'S NOW RUNNING STATEWIDE, AND LET'S KEEP THE FACTS HERE THE FACT.

>> THE ONE THING THAT'S DIFFERENT WITH OHIO COMPARED TO ALL THE OTHER TATES, WE HAVE TO DO THE REDISTRICTING THIS YEAR.

OTHER STATES ARE DOING IT FOR THEIR OWN PARTISAN, POLITICAL REASONS.

WE'LL HAVE A PARTISAN ELEMENT TO THAT THAT WILL FAVOR THE REPUBLICANS, BUT WE HAVE TO DO THE REDISTRICTING BECAUSE THEY'RE ADOPTING IT FOR FOUR YEARS.

>> VOTERS DID ALMOST 3 OUT OF 4 VOTERS APPROVED THIS BACK THEN.

I WENT BACK IN OUR ARCHIVES TO SEE HOW WAS THIS SOLD TO THE VOTERS?

IT WAS SOLD TO THE VOTERS AS WE'RE GOING TO TALK.

WE'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE.

WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT THIS.

WE'RE GOING TO COME UP WITH A BIPARTISAN SOLUTION.

THAT'S HOW IT WAS SOLD, AND EVEN THE PEOPLE NOW WHO ARE WANTING IT TO BE A DIFFERENT WAY, BACK THEN, THEY WERE TALKING BIPARTISANSHIP, AND LET'S FACE IT.

NO VOTER IS GOING TO READ THROUGH AN ENTIRE REDISTRICTING AMENDMENT BEFORE THEY GO VOTE ON IT.

SO -- >> MOVING BEYOND THIS CURRENT FIGHT, THE U. S. SUPREME COURT THIS WEEK HEARD A CASE THAT WOULD ERODE MORE OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT IF THE JUSTICES AGREE THAT WOULD BASICALLY REMOVE THE PRACTICE OF CREATING MAJORITY/MINORITY DISTRICTS KEEPING PEOPLE A COLOR A CHANCE TO REPRESENT THEIR CONSTITUENTS IN CONGRESS.

WHAT DOES THAT DO TO OHIO?

YOU LOOK AT JOYCE BEATTY'S DISTRICT WHICH IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE DISTRICTS THEY'RE LOOKING AT.

WOULD THAT BE CARVED UP OR CRACKED UP AS THEY SAY?

>> NO.

>> IF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT IS OVERTURNED HERE?

>> NO.

THERE'S TWO THINGS YOU CAN DO.

YOU CAN EITHER SPLIT UP A DISTRICT OR YOU CAN PUT MORE AND MORE PEOPLE INTO A DISTRICT, AND I THINK ACTUALLY FROM THE GOP POINT OF VIEW, YOU WANT TO PROTECT JOYCE'S DISTRICT BECAUSE SHE WINS IT BY TOO LARGE A MARGIN FROM THE DEMOCRATIC PERSPECTIVE.

THE BLACK VOTERS GET THEIR CANDIDATE OF CHOICE OR WHATEVER, AND MEANWHILE, IT GIVES GREATER FLEXIBILITY FOR THE REPUBLICANS TO GET MORE REPUBLICAN DISTRICTS SURROUNDING JOYCE'S DISTRICT.

>> SO THERE'S NO WAY TO CARVE UP THAT DISTRICT AND ELIMINATE ALL DEMOCRATIC SEATS IN CONGRESS IN THE STATE OF OHIO?

>> FOR JOYCE BEATTY'S DISTRICT, IN COLUMBUS, THE DISTRICT IN CLEVELAND.

THERE'S A LIMIT TO HOW GREEDY ONE CAN BE, AND WHEN THE COURTS MIGHT STEP IN, SO THAT'S ACTUALLY -- >> WHICH COURT WOULD STEP IN, HERB?

>> I THINK IT WILL GO FIRST.

>> TO THE OHIO SUPREME COURT.

>> AND THEN SOMEBODY WILL TAKE IT --DEMOCRATS IN THE ACLU WILL TAKE IT TO FEDERAL EVEN THOUGH IT SAYS THAT THE OHIO SUPREME COURT IS THE FINAL OFFER HERE.

>> WE CAN'T CRACK THEM OR BREAK THEM UP.

CINCINNATI WILL HAVE IT, COLUMBUS AND CLEVELAND.

THE THEY WILL HAVE DEMOCRAT DISTRICTS BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE VAST MAJORITY OF DEMOCRATS ARE.

THEY WON'T SLIVER OFF COLUMBUS AND IT WOULD VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION.

>> IT'S HAPPENING IN OTHER STATES THOUGH, MIKE.

>> WELL, I'M TALKING --WE'RE IN OHIO.

>> I KNOW, BUT IT'S NOT BEYOND --BEYOND THE REALM OF COMPREHENSION THAT THEY WOULD GO FOR IT ALL AND GO FOR ALL 16 SEATS, THE REPUBLICANS?

>> YONGTS I DON'T THINK SO.

THE CONSTITUTION SAYS THE MAP CAN'T UNDULY FAVOR ONE PARTY.

WHAT DOES UNDULY MEAN?

THEY WILL TAKE A STRINGENT INTERPRETATION OF THAT WORD.

>> MORE FIGHTS TO COME.

THE HEADLINES IN THE 2026 CAMPAIGNS FOR GOVERNOR IN U. S. SENATE ARE --TIM RYAN SEEMS TO BE MOVING TO SAYING HE WILL RUN IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY FOR GOVERNOR, BUT NOTHING CLOSE TO MAKING IT OFFICIAL YET.

IN THE U. S. SENATE RACE, SHERROD BROWN IS OFF TO A GOOD FUND-RAISING START RAISING $8 MILLION OVER THE PAST THREE MONTHS.

THAT'S MORE THAN DOUBLE WHAT INCUMBENT SENATOR JON HUSTED RAISED DURING THAT SAME PERIOD.

HERB ASHER, HE'S NOW PAST THE SELF-IMPOSED DEADLINE TO MAKE A DECISION.

NO DECISION YESTERDAY.

WHAT'S GOING ON?

WHAT'S TAKING HIM SO LONG?

>> I'M TRYING NOT TO SMILE TOO MUCH, BUT WHEN AND IF HE MAKES A DECISION -- >> IF.

>> THIS COULD JUST GO ON FOREVER, BUT LET'S ASSUME HE DECIDES TO RUN.

IF, IN FACT, IN THAT --WHEN HE MAKES THAT DECISION, IF HE DOESN'T ANNOUNCE AT THE SAME TIME THAT IN THIS TIME PERIOD, I HAVE BEEN RAISING MONEY.

I'VE GOT A CAMPAIGN KIDDY OFPLE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, I'VE GOT THESE, HE'S IF I CAN RUN, A LOT OF US WILL SAY, WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING IN THE PAST COUPLE OF MONTHS, AND WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG TO HAVE SORT OF AN ANNOUNCEMENT THAT DID HAVE A LOT OF SUBSTANCE BEYOND THE FACT THAT YOU'RE RUNNING?

>> IS IT REALLY THAT LATE THOUGH?

IT'S LATE BECAUSE VIVEK RAMASWAMY JUMPED IN REALLY EARLY, BUT WE'RE STILL A YEAR AWAY FROM THE ELECTION.

>> I DON'T KNOW.

IT IS LATE, ESPECIALLY GIVEN SOME OF THE THINGS THAT --I MEAN, TIM RYAN'S BEEN TEASING US, AND THE MORE YOU TEASE PEOPLE, THE MORE YOU EXPECT THAT, OKAY.

WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

IF THE ANSWER IS YOU DECIDE NOT TO RUN, NO PROBLEM.

NO FOUL.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN, AND THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT YOU CAN SAY ABOUT YOUR CAMPAIGN, THEN IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S GOING TO --IT'S A WASTED OPPORTUNITY.

>> THE SPECULATION IS THE WORD IS RYAN WANTS TO RUN BECAUSE HE DOESN'T THINK ANYONE ELSE CAN WIN.

>> YEAH.

I'M NOT INSIDE TIM RYAN'S HEAD.

A COLLEAGUE OF MINE DID A NICE LITTLE CHART OF THE VARIOUS STATEMENTS OF THINKING ABOUT IT SERIOUSLY, THINKING ABOUT IT REALLY, REALLY SERIOUSLY.

THINKING ABOUT IT --WHO'S TO SAY?

I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE'S THINKING.

>> CAN HE ACTUALLY WIN, DO YOU THINK?

IN THIS STATE?

WITH THE REPUBLICANS, AND A FAIRLY NEW POLITICIAN, BRAND-NEW POLITICIAN?

>> VERY HEAVILY FAVORS REPUBLICANS, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE NOT HAPPY WITH HER, AND THE ORDERS THAT CAME OUT DURING COVID.

THAT BEING SAID, A LOT OF DEMOCRATIC FAITHFUL -- I WENT TO THE DEMOCRATIC DINNER THE OTHER NIGHT TO KIND OF GAUGE THE CROWD AND SEE WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

A LOT OF THE DEMOCRATIC FAITHFUL REALLY LIKED HER, AND WHEN SHE GOES OUT, YOU KNOW, TALKING TO DIFFERENT PLACES AROUND THE STATE, THE AUDIENCE THAT COMES TO THOSE EVENTS SEEMS TO REALLY LIKE HER.

SO, YOU KNOW, I --I DON'T THINK THAT -- WE'RE TALKING A YEAR AWAY.

A LOT CAN HAPPEN IN A YEAR.

>> YEAH.

>> THAT'S A LONG TIME IN THE WORLD OF POLITICS.

>> TIM RYAN, THE STATE FAVORS REPUBLICANS BY ABOUT EIGHT POINTS HERE JUST ON A GENERIC BALLOT.

TIM RYAN, EQUAL TO THAT GENERIC BALLOT AGAINST JD VANCE.

WOULD HE STAND A BETTER CHANCE TODAY THAN AMY ATKIN?

>> IT'S HARD TO SAY BECAUSE I THINK VIVEK IS GOING TO EASILY WIN THIS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL CAMPAIGN FOR HIM IN OHIO.

JD VANCE WILL COME BACK TO OHIO AND ELON MUSK AND OTHERS.

TRUMP IS STILL WILDLY POPULAR IN OHIO, AND I THINK IT'S AN UPHILL CLIMB FOR ANY DEMOCRAT, ESPECIALLY AMY, BUT I DON'T THINK TIM RYAN IS TOTAL SELFISHNESS TO TRY TO HIJACK HIS PARTY FOR HIMSELF.

HE'S PUTTING SELFIES ON TWITTER SAYING, I GOT A DECISION I NEED TO MAKE DOWN DUBLIN.

STEP UP, BE A MAN --WHO AM I GIVING ADVICE TO TIM RYAN?

AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S THE ARROGANCE, AND I THINK THE DEMOCRAT VOTERS WILL SEE THROUGH THAT, BUT THEY WILL SUPPORT AMY.

>> THE FORMER U. S. SENATOR, IS THAT A NUMBER WE SHOULD BE SURPRISED ABOUT?

>>, IN FACT, THIS WILL BE A VERY IMPORTANT SENATE RACE.

BOTH CANDIDATES WILL HAVE ALL THE MONEY THEY NEED.

THEY'LL VOTE AND BE UP IN THE 20s, 30s, 40s AND IT DOESN'T MATTER IF ONE HAS $5 MILLION MORE THAN THE OTHER.

AS LONG AS THEY HAVE THAT, THAT'S THE CASE.

>> LET'S GET TO OUR FINAL ONE.

>> EXTREMELY TALENTED YOUNG FOOTBALL PLAYER SUING THE STATE OF OHIO ATHLETICS ASSOCIATION BECAUSE HE WANTS TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MONEY IN HIGH SCHOOL, AND HE WANTS TO CHANGE THE LAWS AND RULES.

IT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA.

WE NEED GOVERNOR DeWINE AND THE HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETICS ASSOCIATION TO SAY NO.

WE CAN'T HAVE 14, 15, 16-YEAR-OLD KIDS OUT THERE WITH GREEDY MEN TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THEM TO MAKE MONEY WHEN THEY'RE TRYING TO PLAY SPORTS AND GET GOOD GRADES.

THERE'S ENOUGH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES IN OUR TOWN AND OUR STATE.

WE NEED TO REJECT THIS, AND THIS YOUNG MAN IS GOING TO MAKE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WHEN HE TURNS 18 WHEN HE GOES TO OHIO STATE.

>> I WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS DEAL THAT WAS MADE BETWEEN THE MAYOR OF CLEVELAND AND THE FAMILY.

IT HAS TO BE APPROVED BY THE CITY COUNCIL, AND I HAVE BEEN READING STORIES OF THE CITY COUNCIL TAKEN BY SURPRISE, AND IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?

THE MAYOR IS SORT OF PERSONALLY -- WELL, I THINK SOME REPORTERS SHOULD LOOK INTO IT AND SEE IF THERE'S ANYTHING.

>> JAKE?

>> COLUMBUS MARATHON IS SUNDAY.

TO ANYONE OUT THERE IN THE WIND AND THE RAIN, BEST OF LUCK.

>> SARAH DONALDSON RUNNING.

>> YEAH.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO EXTEND MY SYMPATHIES TO THE OHIO HIGHWAY PATROL TROOPER NICHOLAS KATIN LOST HIS LIFE, AND I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO EXTEND MY SYMPATHIES TO EVERYONE IN THE TBS NPR CROWD BECAUSE WE LOST A LIVING LEGEND.

SUSAN SAMBERG WAS ONE OF THE FOUNDERS, ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE YOU THINK OF IN PUBLIC BROADCASTING, AND WE LOST HER THIS WEEK.

SO -- >> SHE WAS A LEGEND.

>> MY CONDOLENCES.

>> SOMEWHAT LIGHTER NOTE, THIS WEEK THE DEVELOPER WANTS TO BUILD A HISTORICALLY THEMED HOTEL BASED ON THE TITANIC.

IT WOULD BE CALLED UNSINKABLE.

OF COURSE, THE TITANIC DID SINK, CLAIMING SOME 1,600 LIVES.

THE DEVELOPER IS LOOKING FOR A SITE.

I SUGGEST WE PUT IT NEAR THE INTEL PLANT IN NEW ALBANY.

NOTHING COULD BRING MORE LUCK TO THAT PROJECT THAN THE TITANIC.

THAT IS "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK, WATCH US ANY TIME AT OUR WEBSITE, WOSU.

ORG/COTR, YOUTUBE, AND THE PBS APP.

FOR OUR PANEL, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.