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>> You're watching PBS for Wayne our show tonight LIFE Ahead is the name and what we do on this show every Wednesday night is try to provide you with some information and education that will help you with life decisions that you need to make.

Thus the name LIFE Ahead.

Well, tonight we're going to be discussing very valuable a topic we're going to talk about asset protection.

What does it mean?

How do you do it and what are some good ways to protect your assets and to do that we have attorneys in our studio tonight.

>> Of course you know Heidi Adair, this is Heidi Adair.

You've been on many, many times through the years.

>> Heidi, welcome back.

Thank you, Sandy .

Good to be here.

Janelle Sprinkel not your first time.

>> No, but welcome back.

The last time I think we were talking earlier that Janelle and Heidi were on we were still doing the zoom calls.

That was during the Kobad season and I would be here talking and you would be in your offices.

>> Well, it's nice that all of that's passed and I had this is much nicer.

>> Yes.

Yes.

OK, let's let's talk about asset prevention asset I'm sorry protection preservation.

>> What is it and do I need to do this?

>> Let's start out with you Janelle.

What is the general term asset protection?

>> What does that mean?

Asset preservation really is a way to safeguard an individual's assets while also maintaining their long term health care needs.

So it is a comprehensive estate plan that addresses their long hair needs and reduces the burden of paying for long term care.

>> OK, so is this different Heidi then than just estate planning?

How different it is.

>> I mean estate planning is just generally kind of making sure what happens to your assets when you pass away versus asset preservation is thinking about your long term care journey and how am I going to pay for that and are there programs out there that I could access to assist me?

>> OK, so then I'm gathering and tell me if I'm wrong or right.

I'm gathering we're talking about things that you own your assets whether it's money savings in different areas like IRAs or whatever and physical things you might own your house, your car, whatever how to preserve those so that you don't lose those if you have to go into a long term care.

>> Is that what we're talking about here?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's what we're talking about.

OK, do you have to do this Chanel No you don't have to but I feel like everyone should consider it and think about it because there's a lot of times that people maybe find out too late and thought oh you know what I wish I would have gathered more information ah I wish I would have known my options back then is honestly when you talk about an asset preservation strategy oftentimes the earlier you start it the better the more options you have the more pass that are available, the more assets we can preserve.

So even if you are not to the point where you need to actually start implementing a plan, it's always good to ask and see and get Gavino with anything, gather that information so you know when to start thinking about it.

When you are getting a little bit closer you have all that information, those options available to you and that's one of the things we're doing here tonight is giving you some of that information so you can begin to ponder whether that that is something that you're ready to do or it's time for you to do.

>> Is there a specific time, Heidi, that a person should start planning for long term care and how to protect their assets or is it individually a decision?

>> It's individual based.

You know, if you've got you know, maybe you have some health issue that showed up showed up early in your life , you may want to think about preservation earlier but as you're kind of gliding into retirement, that's a great time to just start.

As Janelle said, educating yourself on long term care so many people I think want to just avoid the topic and hope that it doesn't happen to them because to discuss the topic or read about the topic or think about it is to acknowledge it and who wants to acknowledge that might be there if you're trying it's hard to do but I think honestly if you can educate yourself, learn what care options are out there and have a thought, there is always a way to make sure that you get the care that you need.

And once you understand what that path looks like for you, I think you can relax a little bit and I think your family members can relax a little bit knowing you know, we got this covered one way or another family probably think about it too even if they don't discuss it with you, they're probably thinking, you know, well one of these days dad might need some extra help or mom or whatever and it's it's important for families to have this discussion among them, correct?

>> Yeah.

And I mean at what point you want to involve your family members is up to you.

But I will say when I'm working with clients who are older and maybe one spouse the couple is quite ill. We need to figure something out.

It is so overwhelming for that older person to have to do that alone versus if we'd worked on it five or ten years ago and I already had a copy of your marriage certificate in the file and knew where your life insurance policies were in the crisis, it's going to be a lot less stressful.

Yeah, I had a gentleman bring in a tub like a tub and you know his wife that his wife did all of the organization and once we got into her head as to how she had it organized, it all made perfect sense.

>> But he was very panicked.

She was gone and he brought her she didn't measles or she's ill. >> We got to figure out how to get her care paid for it to be.

>> My wife has this giant tub and we're just starting to unpack it what her system was.

>> Right, right.

OK, and by the way, you know you had that issue if you have an issue, this is your chance to call and get some legal advice here (969) 27 twenty is our number and we can talk to you straight from the studio or if you're not comfortable talking out loud to us here, your option also is to give our phone operator who's back in the control room right now give her your question and she'll type it up and send it out here to the studio to me on the teleprompter.

>> So we just want to do what's comfortable for you.

OK, now what are some of the most unusual or difficult circumstances you might face in trying to help somebody with their asset protection?

>> I think every situation is unusual and unique because it's very fact sensitive in each case.

So it very much depends on not just the value of your assets but how their title.

Are they yours?

Are they joint?

Are they joint with your spouse, joint with a child?

So every time we talk to someone about their planning and the strategies that we would use for them, it's always unique and different and it also depends on the timeline.

So are you just gathering information or do you think that you probably will need care within five or more years?

Are you within that five year window?

Does your spouse need care right now?

Are you or your spouse already in the nursing home?

>> So in each of those timelines and matching it with the different assets, every strategy, every plan is unique and different.

So there really isn't one that I can point to because it's very, very case by case specifics.

>> Are there different solutions depending on the different types of assets?

Heidi, let's say somebody has all their assets, all monetary you know, and somebody else who doesn't have a lot of actual money in retirement savings or whatever but they own a lot of property.

>> Yeah, very different in how we would approach a plan based on is it all real estate or is it cash or is it a mixture of both and yeah very different approaches and couple different choices that clients would have as to how they want to handle things.

>> And so our our goal is to just kind of lay out your options and say if you want option B, these are the steps you've got to take an option A.

These are the steps and let the client kind of decide what they want to to do.

>> OK, all right.

>> I've heard this saying about a five year look back from nursing homes that they can look back at your financial records for five years to see what you need to pay or not.

Can you talk about that, Ginelle?

Sure.

Yes, And when we are discussing a strategy for sometime, we're very conscious of that five year look.

So when you apply for Medicaid like you indicated, Medicaid will look back five years and look for any large transactions, large transactions gave somebody money or yes gifting anything like that.

So they're looking for that and if there is something like that then they enforce a penalty and the penalty is is basically it is an extra month of private paying for something for your care even once you're accepted and receiving Medicaid benefits .

So when we talk about the five years if you have come to us and we have more than five years, you're just gathering information and you you and your spouse are relatively healthy and you don't anticipate needing care within five years.

Yeah, we actually have the most options available to us at that time because we can move assets around and we can transfer assets and one of the things that we do would be to put in something like an asset protection trust at that point.

>> So work is that what it's called asset protection trust OK yes.

>> Yeah you can refer to that like it for that for that for sure.

>> And so basically it's just a way to take an asset out of an individual's name and put it into a trust and it's a specific type of trust and it's a trust that meets the strict eligibility guidelines for Medicaid for OK so then it's a no worry in terms of a look back if you will, is it revokable or irrevocable?

>> It is an irrevocable trust.

OK, yes.

So which which means that the individual doesn't have direct control over it but they have the ability to name a trusted individual or a family member or friend who can act on their behalf and access so they'd be like a trustee of you're exactly right.

>> Yep.

That's exactly what they would be.

Do you name beneficiaries?

Oh absolutely.

Yes.

So which is another perk another benefit of doing this is that you can indicate how you would like it to be distributed after you passed so you would name your beneficiaries your children, whoever it is.

>> All of those terms are laid out with that trust and speak a little bit more, Heidi, if you will, about beneficiaries.

>> Is it a good idea if you're doing long term care planning or asset protection to begin to place like your house or property or something in your kid's name for example or what?

>> I I I caution people to do that.

I tend to push people to encourage people towards the asset protection trust.

OK, because when you give your house to your child Yeah.

That's you don't own your house anymore.

>> Your child owns your house and a couple of things can happen to you.

You lose your homestead exemption because you don't live there.

You know it's not your home anymore, OK?

When people sell their homes they get really good.

They don't generally owe taxes on that sale.

But if you don't if it's not your residence, the house is sold there could be taxes that are owed.

So and you also have the added risk of liability.

Any problems that your child might encounter your home could become, you know, open to being foreclosed upon to judge his for their creditors.

>> Yes, I see.

OK, dangerous isn't it?

Yeah.

OK, we have a phone call coming in here.

This is from Fred and Fred.

I want to thank you so much for watching LIFE Ahead tonight and all of you by the way, here's Fred's question.

He says When is it mandated that one spouse is admitted to a care facility and the other one remains in the home?

How does that work when it comes to assets also is there a lookback period for gifts to loved ones that you might make along the way as you're doing your estate planning?

You start, Heidi and engineer and jump in here.

>> OK, so Fred, thanks for asking that question because that's a common point of confusion that we see when you are married.

>> There is not a look back problem in protecting assets for the well spouse or the community spouse as we refer to that person the community spouse the community spouse is the well person.

>> Oh OK.

So right if you're in a situation where your spouse has to go to long term care that is a time to be line to an elder law attorney's office because generally with asset transfers and just different things moving things around we can get your spouse qualified for Medicaid and then you say is there a live look back period for gifts to loved ones?

>> Janelle, you want to take that one?

Sure, yeah.

OK, so yes, there is a look back period at transferring assets between spouses like Heidi was just referring to that there's no penalty for that but transferring assets to anyone else.

There is a penalty.

So when we say gifts to someone there is a it's called a de minimis rule.

So I don't want to go on minimus rule de minimis rule again de minimis de de minimus and minimize a small a small diminished.

OK yes yes.

So that that's what that's the term of art for .

Yes.

And so it does allow so if you're talking very small gifts, Christmas gifts, birthday gifts they generally exclude the first twelve hundred dollars during a year.

Now that's not a lot of gifts but if you're used to giving birth I know old.

>> Yes.

So they'll overlook if you're just giving a Christmas present or a birthday present but if you're gifting large chunks of money or transferring it doesn't matter if your intention was to just do something nice for someone Medicaid will see that as you transfer trying to get your money out of the so they will look at those things.

>> I see.

OK, I hope that's helped you, Fred.

Anything else that I think that's you know, some good questions.

Fred, I appreciate that and I'm sure that many other people watching probably are wondering the same thing.

>> OK, Heidi, I want to ask you about the we talked about the five year look back.

>> Are there any other things that we should consider as we plan ahead other than projecting five years from when we might need long term care?

Yeah, I mean I think if you're a veteran there's a really awesome veteran's benefits that are available called the aid and attendance benefit.

And if you are a veteran it served during certain prescribed periods around basically the wars that we've been OK if you were in the military during that period of time in your assets, meet certain levels in your income, meet certain levels you can qualify for some nice benefits to help pay for home care, assisted living nursing home care and there's a three year look back with veterans benefits or reverses a five year look back for Medicaid.

That's interesting.

>> So it's kind of good to just check in early to see you know, maybe we can't maybe we're not going to make that five years but we can access the VA to get us from years cover years four and five.

>> So good things to just look into good information and something good to know especially again if you are a veteran is watching by the way and she's got a question coming in here in just a moment.

But while we're waiting for the rest of that, Janelle, let me ask you she talked about the veterans benefits.

Are there any other programs or government assisted programs to help people with asset protection that you know, um I mean Medicaid is the big one of that and that covers a lot.

Let me let me tell you maybe what Medicaid does cover , OK?

I don't think that people know how expansive it is so I think a lot of people typically think of in a nursing home that's when you can have those benefits kick in.

>> Exactly.

But it also covers if you're in your own home but you need some nursing help meaning you need a nurse to come in health care.

Exactly.

So to help with daily activities that you may not be able to do yourself.

Yeah, Medicaid and it's a rule of thumb but basically there is help for reimbursement of about 30 hours of having a nurse come to your home per week.

So that is very helpful.

OK, so this is not you're not even a facility yet.

You're just this can no longer at your time that you're able to stay in your home.

OK, the next one is if the next step up is really the assisted living facility and in that case it will cap your room cost to a certain amount amount changes per year but it's significantly lower than you would pay if you were paying a full rate.

And then of course it also covers nursing home care so it's not a separate governmental benefit but it's Medicaid itself is very, very broad and see these are a lot of things people don't know unless somebody tells you and that's what we're trying to do to encourage you to look into these things.

OK, here's Becky question she says is set up for an asset review.

Should they come in by themselves or should they bring in actual power of attorney?

>> How do you get this one?

Yeah, I think that's a personal decision that you can make if you're very young and you may want to change your mind 15 times between now and when you're going to pass.

Maybe you don't want to share your plans at that time but if you're getting along in life and you see the day where you might want somebody to be able to assist you, you may want to involve them and bring them along so that they're aware too.

>> I mean if you're pretty am I guessing you're saying if they're pretty sure that their power of attorney is going to stay I mean they're not changing their mind on that.

>> So it might be a good idea for you as an attorney to meet that power of attorney?

Right.

Right.

All right.

OK, now we have Jean's question coming in as well and thank you, Betty, by the way for watching.

Jean says Is there a dollar amount that you shouldn't have in assets before looking into a trust and what's the average cost of this service?

I know we can't give a specific dollar amount because it may vary from firm to firm or from now to six months from now.

But Janell, if you can give us some guidance on if there's a dollar amount the person should have before they consider it?

>> I don't think so.

I think it's a good idea to talk about asset preservation no matter how many assets you have because no matter what that number is, you've worked hard to attain that during your life .

It's hard to to save money and to earn money and and what someone might think is a small amount another person might think is a large amount and vice versa.

So and even if you only just I would say just have a home because a home is a nice thing to own.

But if you have maybe not so much in the bank but you have your residence and you just want to talk about protecting your home or your family farm ground that's been in your family for years and years that may made to you may not think like that's a high number but that is something that that you might want to preserve for your family and for your children and that alone is worth coming into again see your options and talk about what you can and cannot do and talk about a strategy to preserve that.

>> So then Heidi, in adding to what Janelle was saying here so it doesn't matter whether you've saved five hundred dollars that's what you have that's all your assets or whether it's five hundred thousand it doesn't matter.

>> It's your assets you want to protect.

Right.

Right.

Yes.

And just if you're on the five hundred dollar person end, I think it's good to be educated of what what opportunities are available out there because in Indiana we have a very good really Medicaid long term care system that you can get help in the home in assisted living in a nursing home.

You don't have to be straight to a nursing home if you even if you want to use Medicaid.

>> We have so many options now what you do wonderful compared to you know, 10 years ago or 20 years ago oftentimes it meant everybody went straight from the hospital if they had major surgery to a nursing home and now there are so many home health care options and and different hours you can utilize them different services.

>> So that's a wonderful we've been hearing for many years that the baby boomers are going to demand this.

The baby boomers are demanding it and things are changing.

There's lots of options.

>> They want to stay in their home longer and or even a lot of insurance policies might even cover transportation to take you to your doctor's appointments or whatever.

So a lot of things that you need to look into with your insurance as well.

OK, Janell, we talked about the lookback thing and Medicaid.

>> Is there anything else you can think of that people need to consider should they involve their loved ones in these meetings with attorneys?

>> Oh, I think for sure, yes.

And I wanted to say one more thing to them to the last caller because she had ask about price and typically attorneys charge by hour.

So you know, I'm not going to say what a price is that for any particular firm because I don't know what other firms charge.

But I just my point that I wanted to make is you should never worry about cost as far as having that initial conversation because now you may pay for that first hour but the cost of one hour to just hear your options and typically an attorney at that point could tell you how much more time it might take once they come up with a plan.

So typically you're aware of what your cost is versus your benefit before you have to make a decision so that one hour of information to save your life's assets is usually worth that that would be worth that cost and you're not ever required to go further or to pay anything more until they give you more information on what that cost might be.

So I would just I just wanted to say that you shouldn't be hesitant to have the discussion if you're worried about the cost because that will always be discussed ahead of time.

>> OK, that makes good sense.

Heidi, you're shaking your head.

You agree with that?

>> I agree.

Right.

And again, we have a few more minutes here on the show if you want to give a call with a question you might have we'll give you some legal legal direction here.

>> OK, we've talked about Vuh some and we've talked about Medicaid or any other programs or asset protection places you might want to consider putting things other than the irrevocable trust that I can really think of .

Can you?

Well, again, it depends on the situation because Heidi mentioned before if it's in a married couple that we do a lot of the transfers between spouses so it's not necessarily that we always move it to a trust.

There are other places to move it but it's very case by case basis.

And who is in your family and are you married and other types of things like that?

Individual situations if one spouse passes away, Heidi, should the other spouse hurry up and get there?

>> Let's say it's the wife that passes.

Should they get her name removed from the title of the house or the car or other assets?

>> You don't have to feel like you have to do that immediately when someone passes away in your house you really can wait till the house sells.

So but it's a good idea to talk with your attorney just to make it to do list of things to work on.

>> There's usually not an immediate need for something to happen.

All right.

Good advice.

>> We have about 30 seconds.

Janelle, did you get to give a pitch to the people about the most important thing they need to do?

>> Well, I guess one of the things I wanted to convey today is if you are considering having this discussion with your attorney and I think most everyone benefits from asking their attorney what what their best plans are and their options.

But to make the meeting most effective and most efficient with your time is to make sure that you bring in or have it in your memory your your income so what your income is what your spouse's income is to have a pretty good understanding of your assets and how they're organized and who owns them and where they are and are they in an IRA or a bank account and then any prior estate documents is also a really important thing to bring with it's always been really good about cautioning us to keep all of our plans in one place and make sure people know where they are exactly.

>> Well, I want to thank once again our attorneys here, Janelle Sprinkel and Heidi Adair for being with us.

Thank you.

Thank you.

In your wisdom, you and the rest of you I hope I'll see you here next Wednesday night 730 nootropic in new guest good night.

Stay safe and stay healthy