> >> WE TURN NOW TO ANOTHER POLARIZING ISSUE.

THAT'S THE PUBLIC REACTION TO THE MURDER OF UNITEDHEALTHCARE CEO BRIAN THOMPSON.

HE WAS SHOT DEAD IN MIDTOWN MANHATTAN THIS MONTH AFTER A SIX-DAY MANHUNT.

THE SUSPECT, 26-YEAR-OLD LUIGI MANGIONE, HASH IN CUSTODY CHARGED WITH MURDER AS AN ACT OF TERRORISM.

SINCE THE KILLING, THE INTERNET HAS BEEN SWIRLING WITH DIVISIVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT HIS POTENTIAL MOTIVE AND WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT AMERICA'S HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

JIA TOLENTINO WRITES ABOUT THIS FOR HER LATEST PIECE IN "THE NEW YORKER. "

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU THINK THE WAY PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS PUBLICLY, BECAUSE OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, RESPECTABLE PEOPLE HAVE TO SAY, THIS IS INEXCUSABLE, NOT HOW WE HANDLE SITUATIONS.

YOU SEE A NUMBER OF PUBLIC OFFICIALS CERTAINLY SAYING THAT VIGILANTE VIOLENCE IS NOT TO BE TOLERATED.

YOU'RE SAYING PRIVATELY, CERTAINLY SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS ARE IN SOME WAYS OTHER PUBLIC EXPRESSION OF OUR PRIVATE THOUGHTS.

DO YOU WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> I THINK IT IS INTERESTING WHEN THERE IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS AND PEOPLE SPEAK ABOUT IT VERY DIFFERENTLY IN PRIVATE THAN THEY DO IN PUBLIC.

AT FIRST I WAS THINKING, MAYBE THIS IS PARTICULAR TO PEOPLE MY AGE WHO HAVE NO SENSE OF PROPRIETY.

THEY ARE LETTING THE MEMES RIP IN THE GROUP CHATS.

ONE THING WE'VE REALIZED IN THE CHAOTIC RESPONSE TO THIS MURDER, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE ANY PARTICULAR AGE OR GENDER OR RACE OR FROM ANY REGION OR EVEN HAVE ANY SORT OF POLITICAL IDEOLOGY WHATSOEVER TO FEEL THAT THE AMERICAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS PROFOUNDLY IMMORAL.

TO FEEL THAT EVERYONE, SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PUSHED TO SUCH A BREAKING POINT.

AND MOSTLY BEEN ABLE TO DO VERY LITTLE ABOUT IT OTHER THAN TO TRY TO RAISE MONEY HOWEVER THEY CAN TO GET OUT OF BANKRUPTCY OR START A GOFUNDME OR SIMPLY SUFFER.

I THINK WE FOUND IN THE RESPONSE, THE SENSE OF GLEE, FRANKLY, THE GLEE THAT WAS UNCOMFORTABLE MAYBE FOR SOME PEOPLE TO BEHOLD IN PUBLIC IT WAS INDICATIVE OF SOMETHING THAT HAS REALLY CUT ACROSS ALL SORTS OF TRADITIONAL, DIVISIONAL LINES IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING YOU WROTE IN THE PIECE, THAT YOU WROTE FOR THE NEW YORKER.

YOU WROTE THAT THOMPSON'S MURDER IS ONE SYMPTOM OF THE AMERICAN APPETITE FOR VIOLENCE.

HIS LINE OF WORK IS ANOTHER.

SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> ONE THING I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT IN THE LAST COUPLE WEEKS, AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE, TOO, THE AMERICAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, THERE IS NO REASON FOR IT TO EXIST IN THE WAY THAT IT DOES.

AND WE TAKE IT FOR GRANTED THIS IS JUST HOW WE LIVE.

WE ARE LOCKED INTO THIS SYSTEM BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ATTEMPTS TO PUSH FOR A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM, THEY HAVE NOT SUCCEEDED.

AND THERE ARE A LOT OF THING LIKE GUN CONTROL THAT PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY'RE POWERLESSLY LOCKED INTO.

THERE IS NO WAY TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT WHEN YOU VOTE, FUNDAMENTAL FUNDAMENTALLY BUT THIS HAS PROVIDED A MOMENT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO STEP BACK THINK AND, WHY DO WE HAVE A HEALTH CARE SYSTEM THAT WORKS LIKE THIS?

WHY ARE WE THE ONLY DEVELOPED NATION IN THE WORLD THAT DOESN'T GUARANTEE HEALTH CARE TO ALL CITIZENS?

WHY DO WE HAVE PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANY LIKE UNITEDHEALTHCARE PLAYING SUCH A PRIMARY ROLE IN THE SYSTEM?

WE PAY MORE PER CAPITA IN HEALTH INSURANCE, IN HEALTH CARE COSTS THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY THAT IS COMPARABLE.

WE HAVE THE LOWEST LIFE EXPECTANCY AT BIRTH OUT OF ANY OTHER COMPARABLE COUNTRY.

OUR SYSTEM IS SO EXPENSIVE.

IT IS SO PROFITABLE FOR A VERY SELECT FEW COMPANIES AND PEOPLE AND IT IS SO, SO PUNITIVE IN TERMS OF WHAT IT DOES TO PEOPLE'S ACTUAL HEALTH AND ABILITY TO LIVE.

AND THERE IS NO REASON IT HAS TO BE LIKE THIS.

THE ANNUAL REVENUE IS HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS A YEAR.

ITS ANNUAL PROFITS, BRIAN THOMPSON DURING HIS TENURE RAISED THE PROFRTS FROM $12 BILLION TO $16 BILLION.

WE HAVE THIS FIT-MAKING MACHINE AND WHAT IT COMES OFF THE BACK OF.

THERE ARE LOTS OF KINDS OF VIOLENCE.

SOMEONE SHOOTING SOMEONE IN THE STREET IS ONE.

I THINK OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS QUITE CLEARLY ANOTHER.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS EMERGED FULL-FORCE IN THE WAY PEOPLE ARE REACTING.

>> YOU'RE MAKING AN ARGUMENT THAT STRGS CAN CREATE VIOLENCE.

THAT VIOLENCE ISN'T JUST A PERSON DOING SOMETHING BAD TO ANOTHER PERSON.

THAT SYSTEMS THEMSELVES CAN CREATE VIOLENCE.

OR CERTAINLY HARM.

ONE THING YOU WRITE.

TO MOST AMERICANS, A COMPANY LIKE UNITEDHEALTHCARE.

>> THIS GOES BACK TO THE CONCEPTION OF SOCIAL MURDER WHICH HE WROTE ABOUT IN THE MID 19th CENTURY, RIGHT?

WHEN A SOCIETY WITHHOLDS THE CONDITIONS NECESSARY TO LIVE FROM ITS PEOPLE, LIKE WE DO IN THIS COUNTRY IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, I WOULD SAY THE MINIMUM WAGE, HOUSING, AND VERY PARTICULARLY, HEALTH CARE, THE MOST DIRECT WAY.

WHEN A SOCIETY DENIES THE CONDITIONS THAT ARE NECESSARY TO LIVE TO ITS PEOPLE, AND THEY DIE BECAUSE OF IT, THAT THAT ITSELF, HE CALLED IT SOCIAL MURDER.

AND THERE IS ANOTHER, YOU KNOW, A NORWEGIAN SOCIAL SCIENTIST TERMED IT STRUCTURAL MURDER IN 1969.

THERE ARE WAYS TO END SOMEONE'S LIFE BEFORE IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED.

ONE OF THEM, THE KIND OF VIOLENCE WE FIXATE ON IN THIS COUNTRY IS A SINGLE PERSON WITH A WEAPON THAT INTENDS HARM UPON ANOTHER PERSON AND THEN CAUSES IT.

BUT THERE IS A LOT OF OTHER WAYS TO END A LIFE EARLY AND UNJUSTLY AND IMMORALLY.

AND DENYING PEOPLE HEALTH CARE IS ONE OF THEM.

ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS SO CLEARLY, YOU LOOK AT CEO COMPENSATION IN THIS COUNTRY, HEALTH CARE COMPANIES ASIDE.

YOU LOOK AT THE REVENUES OF A COMPANY LIKE UNITEDHEALTHCARE AND THE FACT THAT IT DENIES ONE-THIRD OF ALL THE CARE THAT DOCTORS ASK FOR FOR THEIR PATIENTS.

EVERY ONE OF THOSE DENIED CLAIMS IS A POTENTIAL BANKRUPTCY, A POTENTIAL SICKNESS, POTENTIAL DEATH.

AND I THINK WE FIXATE SO MUCH ON THIS ONE KIND OF VIOLENCE AT THE EXPENSE OF RECOGNIZING THE CONDITIONS OF LIFE IN THIS COUNTRY FOR MANY, MANY PEOPLE ARE THAT OF THE DENIAL OF THE TOOLS ARE NECESSARY TO SIMPLY LIVE.

>> WHAT I FOUND FASCINATING, THE VERY DAY THAT THE ALLEGED SHOOTER, LUIGI MANGIONE WAS ARRESTED, WAS THE VERY DAY ANOTHER YOUNG MAN ACQUITTED OF THE CHOKEHOLD DEATH OF A MAN ON THE NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY.

NOW, YES.

HE DIDN'T FLEE.

HE PRESENTED HIMSELF TO AUTHORITIES.

HE SAID I DID THIS.

I HAD AN EXPLANATION FOR THIS.

I THOUGHT THIS MAN WAS THREATENING AND I FELT THAT I WAS DOING MY PART.

I FOUND IT SO FASCINATING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF HIS TRIAL CALLING HIM A HERO.

CALLING HIM A HERO.

AND SUBSEQUENTLY, THE PRESIDENT-ELECT INVITED HIM TO SIT IN HIS BOX AT THE ARMY-NAVY GAME THIS WEEKEND.

BASICALLY, LIONIZING HIM.

I FOUND IT SO FASCINATING THAT THERE HAVE BEEN --PEOPLE AREN'T ALLOWED TO GO SHOOT PEOPLE IN COLD BLOOD ON THE STREET BECAUSE THEY'RE MAD AT THEM.

BUT DID I FIND IT SO FASCINATING THAT THERE WAS SUCH A DIFFERENT REACTION TO THESE TWO DEATHS.

I'M CURIOUS IF YOU THOUGHT THAT, TOO.

>> BOTH MEN WERE 26 YEARS OLD.

MAYBE THE REACTION ISN'T SO DIFFERENT, RIGHT?

WE CAN'T DANCE AROUND, LUIGI MANGIONE IS AN ENORMOUS FOLK HERO TO PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES EVERYWHERE ON THE IDEOLOGICAL SPECTRUM.

DANIEL PENNY, HE IS A FOLK HERO VERY FIRMLY AND ONLY ON THE RIGHT.

BOTH PEOPLE ARE BEING CELEBRATED FOR TAKING SOMEONE OUT THAT WAS SEEN TO BE A DANGER TO PUBLIC SAFETY.

WHEN YOU COMPARE THEIR VICTIMS, THAT'S WHEN THINGS GET MUCH CLEARER, RIGHT?

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE NOT CONGRESSMEN, MOURNING DANIEL PENNY'S VICTIM, MOURNING HIM AS SOMEONE WHOSE LIFE WAS PRECIOUS, WHOSE END OF LIFE WAS UNJUST.

REFLEXIVELY, THE RESPONSE OF PEOPLE IN POWER TO BRIAN THOMPSON'S MURDER WERE MEN LIKE THIS, MEN THAT MAKE $10 MILLION A YEAR, MEN THAT SHEPHERD THEIR FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES TO SHAREHOLDER PROFITS, QUARTER OVER QUARTER, THIS IS SUPPOSED TO, IN AMERICA, THIS IS SUPPOSED TO CONFIRM MORALITY.

THE SIMPLE FACT THAT SOMEONE IS THAT WEALTHY.

THAT THEY PRESIDE OVER MANY EMPLOYEES, THAT THEY CAN GENERATE CAPITAL GAINS FOR SO MANY PEOPLE.

THAT IN ITSELF IS ALMOST ONE TO ONE IN THIS COUNTRY.

AT LEAST AMONG THE POWERFUL WITH MORALITY, ALTHOUGH AS WE ALL KNOW, THE WAY THAT YOU ACQUIRE MONEY LIKE THAT IS OFTEN THROUGH PROFOUNDLY ING SYSTEMS AND NONE OF WHICH ARE AS STARK AS THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM ITSELF.

IN THIS WAY, BRIAN THOMPSON, HE IS SEEN AS AUTOMATICALLY DESERVING RESPECT.

WHERE JORDAN NEELY, THE VICTIM OF DANIEL PENNY, HE WAS THE VICTIM OF THAT SAME EXACT SYSTEM.

HE WAS SEEN AS A DANGER BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE MONEY.

THE SYSTEM THAT SOME PEOPLE CAN MAKE $10 MILLION A YEAR BENEFITTING FROM, THOSE SYSTEMS OPERATE BY NEGLECTING AND IGNORING AND CASTING ASIDE PEOPLE LIKE HIM.

>> I THINK YOU MAY HAVE SEEN THIS.

ANDREW WITTY, THE UNITEDHEALTHCARE CEO WHO WROTE AN OP- ED LAST WEEK EMPHASIZED THE COMPANY'S MISSION TO MAKE HEALTH CARE MORE COMPASSIONATE AND TRANSPARENT.

I'LL QUOTE.

WE KNOW THE HEALTH SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK AS WELL AS IT SHOULD AND WE UNDERSTAND.

IT IS A PATCH WORK BUILT OVER DECADES.

OUR MISSION IS TO HELP MAKE IT WORK BETTER.

HOW DO YOU OR DO YOU RECOGNIZE THESE STATEMENTS WITH THE REALITIES THAT YOU WROTE ABOUT IN YOUR PEACE?

AND THEY KNOW WHAT THEIR NUMBERS ARE.

I FOUND IT SHOCKING AND AMAZING THAT THEY WOULD PUBLISH A NEWSLETTER FOR UNITEDHEALTHCARE.

I THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY HONESTLY FUNNY THAT THE CEO OF UNITEDHEALTHCARE THAT AFTER ALL THE THINGS THAT HAVE COME OUT ABOUT UNITEDHEALTHCARE IN RECENT DAYS, ALL OF THESE INVESTIGATIONS FROM THE LAST FEW YEARS, ALL OF THESE GOVERNMENT INVESTIGATIONS, ALL OF THESE CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS ABOUT HOW THE COMPANY EMPLOYS ALGORITHMS TO KICK ELDERLY PATIENTS OUT OF REHAB BEDS 14 DAYS AFTER THEY HAVE SURGERY, RIGHT?

HOW THEIR INTERNAL PROGRAMS THAT HAVE BEEN DEEMED ILLEGAL IN MULTIPLE STATES, ABOUT HOW THEY HAVE TO KICK PEOPLE OFF REIMBURSEMENT ONCE THEY'RE GETTING TOO MUCH THERAPY.

YOU CAN'T GET AROUND THIS IS HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS.

HOW THEY GENERATE THEIR PROFITS IS NOT DESPITE THE FACT BUT BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THEY DENY SO MANY PEOPLE CARE.

OBVIOUSLY, IT IS COMPLICATED.

IT IS NOT EXACTLY THAT BLACK AND WHITE.

BUT THAT IS HOW THIS COMPANY MAKES MONEY.

SO I APPLAUD THE PR TEAM AT UNITEDHEALTHCARE FOR SPENDING FIVE DAYS WORKING EVERY LITTLE SENTENCE IN THERE TO TRY TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT THEY'RE WORKING THEIR HARDEST TO TAKE CARE OF PEOPLE.

I THINK THEY HAVE TO SHUT DOWN COMMENTS ON THAT ONE.

IT WAS NOT A SUCCESSFUL WINNING HEARTS AND MINDS CAMPAIGN.

>> DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WHO CLAIM THAT, CAN THEY REALLY NOT KNOW?

>> THAT'S A REALLY, REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I THINK THAT THERE IS A DEGREE OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE THAT COMES FROM LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY, THAT COMES FROM THE PROFOUNDLY IMMORAL SYSTEMS ON WHICH ALL OF OUR LIVES REST, AND THE FACT THAT WE HAVE TO SIMPLY LIVE STILL, RIGHT?

AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE RESOLVE THAT COGNITIVE DISSONANCE BY SAYING, WELL, THE WAY PITS IS THE WAY THAT IT IS, AND WE HAVE TO KEEP GOING.

OTHERWISE, WHO KNOWS WHAT KIND OF CHAOS, DISORDER AND HELL WE WILL SLIDE INTO?

NOT REALIZING THAT MANY PEOPLE ALREADY LIVE IN THAT HELL.

I THINK TO UNDERSTAND WHERE PEOPLE ARE COMING FROM, YOU HAVE TO ADMIT THE BASELINE IMMORALITY OF A SYSTEM UPON WHICH KIND OF ALL OF OUR LIVES DEPEND.

AND WE'VE SEEN THE TEACHING OF AMERICAN HISTORY, TAXING THE RICH, I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE ERECTED AN IMMOVABLE WALL, THAT BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS ABOUT THIS COUNTRY THAT ARE SINGULAR AND AMAZING, THAT THEY ARE UNWILLING TO ADMIT THAT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE ROTTEN TO THE CORE AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN.

AND I THINK THAT PERHAPS MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BAFFLED AT THE REACTION, THAT IS A RESULT OF THOSE WALLS.

I ALSO THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THE REACTION HAS SHOWN IS THAT THERE IS A HUNGER FOR DIRECT ACTION IN THIS COUNTRY.

I THINK THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY, THERE ARE CONSTRUCTIVE WAYS TO PROTEST.

IF PEOPLE WANT TO MAKE CEOs OF PROFOUNDLY IMMORAL COMPANIES, IF WE WANT TO MAKE THEIR LIVES MISERABLE, WE CAN DO IT WITHOUT SHOOTING THEM.

WE CAN PROTEST, OCCUPY, ACT UP, SHUT DOWN, THERE'S A HUNGER FOR THAT.

A LOT OF FORM ARE NOT VIOLENT AND MURDEROUS.

AND IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'M HOPING, I WANT THAT TO PUSH THROUGH VERY BADLY.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS, I'M SORT OF PUZZLING OVER HERE, YOU KNOW, FORMER PRESIDENT AND NOW FUTURE PRESIDENT TRUMP ASSEMBLED THE RICHEST CABINET IN HISTORY AND IS POISED TO DO SO AGAIN.

HE HAD A WIDER MARGIN OF VICTORY THAN THE LAST TIME HE RAN.

NO ONE IS ING THAT HE WON THIS ELECTION.

THEY CAN LIKE IT OR NOT LIKE IT BUT NO ONE IS DISPUTING THAT HE WON IT WHICH MEANS MORE PEOPLE VOTED FOR HIM.

SO HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT WITH THE OUTRAGE AT THE SYSTEMS WHICH HE SHOWS NO INCLINATION TO DISRUPT?

>> YEAH.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE, A LOT OF PERHAPS UNDERINFORMED VOTERS THAT STILL GET THIS SORT OF BASELESS WHIFF OF POPULISM OFF TRUMP DESPITE EVERYTHING HE'S EVER SHOWN IN HIS LIFE.

HE STILL POSITIONS HIMSELF AS A POPULIST LEADER.

SOMEONE FIGHTING FOR IT.

IF YOU SCRATCH THAT ONE SECOND, IT ALL FALLS APART.

HE HAS PRETTY SUCCESSFULLY PUSH THAT HAD MESSAGE.

THE SHARP RIGHT RETURN THAT EVERY SINGLE CITY AND STATE IN THE COUNTRY BASICALLY TOOK IS, I DON'T KNOW.

IT IS TERRIFYING TO ME FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

BUT I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING PROMISING IN THE FACT THIS REACTION HAS BEEN BYNUM.

YOU DON'T, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT AND ON THE LEFT AND IN THE CENTER AND IN THE WEIRD DIAGONAL HORSESHOE, RIGHT, LEFT, ALL OF THESE CONTEMPORARY CONFIGURATIONS OR POLITICS THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW, THERE IS, THERE IS A POPULIST AGENDA HERE THAT NEITHER PARTY IS ACTUALLY PUSHING THAT IS PROFOUNDLY POPULAR.

THAT CEO PAY IS OUT OF CONTROL.

THAT COMPANIES ARE ACTING IMMORALLY.

THE ENRICHMENT OF MULTIMILLIONAIRES AND BILLIONAIRES AT THE DIRECT EXPENSE OF ORDINARY PEOPLE IS UNJUST.

AND I FIND SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT PROMISING IN THE FACT THAT WHEN I WAS WRITING THE PIECE, JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT I WASN'T GETTING LOST IN MY SORT OF BROOKLYN SOCIALIST BUBBLE, I WAS CHECKING LOTS OF PLACES.

I WAS CHECKING COMMENT SECTIONS ON LOCAL FOX AFFILIATES, THE NEW YORK POST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES," RANDOM TIKTOKS, ALL OF THESE THINGS.

AND NO ONE IS REALLY SAYING, YEAH, THESE COMPANY ARE CORRUPT.

IT'S ALL TRUMP'S FAULT OR ALL BIDEN'S FAULT.

PEOPLE ARE RECOGNIZING THAT THIS IS A SYSTEM THAT NEITHER PARTY IS REALLY TRYING TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT.

AND THERE IS A REAL POLITICAL OPPORTUNITY THERE AND A REAL POTENTIAL LOCUS OF POLITICAL PROMISE IF ONLY SOMEONE WOULD TAKE IT OUT IN ACTUALITY, WHICH OBVIOUSLY TRUMP ISN'T GOING TO DO.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.